Green Zinger Tea - Kristaps Porziņģis 2023-24

Al Zarilla

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For me, the biggest question past pain management is whether playing on it creates a possibility of a more severe injury. If the current level of injury means offseason surgery is likely, then does playing in it simply change that surgery likelihood from 50% to 100%?
Dr. Kharrazi said this:
“I don’t think it’s something that he’s gonna make worse by just playing” and I was heartened.
But then he said this: “especially if he’s just running up and down the court and even some lateral movements may be OK.”

Well, basketball isn’t just running up and down the court and even some lateral movements.

Keeping as many fingers and toes crossed as possible.
 

snowmanny

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Remember when a paralyzed and doped up Willis Reed scored the four most important points in NBA history???
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Doctor has seen the Porzingis injury once in 25 years and then claims "A lot of times the ankle and the tendon can be taped to allow play."?
I think people should be assuming he's done for the season. If he plays and is effective I'll be shocked and incredibly happy.
I presume they are going to try as best as they can to immobilize the tendon; give him whatever pain dampeners he will take; and see how it goes.

That being said, if they can get 10 good minutes out of him, I'll be shocked and incredibly happy too!
 

reggiecleveland

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Remember when a paralyzed and doped up Willis Reed scored the four most important points in NBA history???
The media has decided series when the Lakers win are the historic ones. In the 70s when a New York team won, that was historic.
In today's NBA history how Kareem played after his feelings were hurt is far more heroic.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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He’s had a very positive impact in just 20ish minutes a game, but it was pretty clear in the last couple minutes that a hobbled player in the NBA isn’t worth much. It ain’t Kirk Gibson and one swing of the bat. You have to do some of the most athletic shit in any sport. You get blown by on defense and have no hope in transition and reacting for a rebound is tough.

HOWEVER, with how deep KP hits from, he can largely move along the arc on offense, create spacing, and then retreat to the paint and play drop while the Cs switch everything else. Maybe he’s even just one side of a Jrue-centered zone and they dare Luka to get hot from 3 for 6 minutes a few times. That gives them some roaming rim protection and keeps him out of PnR.

I think we’ll see him.
 

Justthetippett

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Such a bummer but I think he'll give it a go. We won't see the same guy from G1Q1 again this series, which is too bad. That was fucking awesome. He may yet nail a few shots and be a net positive offensively. It's his defense that can be nowhere near the same if he's limited in his explosive movements. I would expect the Mavs to challenge him on drives and lobs and see what they can get away with early (obviously).

Thanks God for Al Horford.
 

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He’s had a very positive impact in just 20ish minutes a game, but it was pretty clear in the last couple minutes that a hobbled player in the NBA isn’t worth much. It ain’t Kirk Gibson and one swing of the bat. You have to do some of the most athletic shit in any sport. You get blown by on defense and have no hope in transition and reacting for a rebound is tough.
Again, that was a different injury in the 4th. He rolled his right ankle. That should be healed, based on how they were reacting post-game. It’s possible we’ll get 3rd/early 4th quarter KP, who looked about 85% or so. He had a pretty big block and was moving ok.
 

m0ckduck

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Amen. But not only does this deprive us of G1Q1 KP, it also moves our effective injury buffer back down to zero again. One more injury to a starter and we're asking Hauser/PP to log 40 min a game and then it gets really hard. Hopefully we close them out quickly and keep this boring.
Again, that was a different injury in the 4th. He rolled his right ankle. That should be healed, based on how they were reacting post-game. It’s possible we’ll get 3rd/early 4th quarter KP, who looked about 85% or so. He had a pretty big block and was moving ok.
That's what's so weird: I don't remember him limping at all or looking compromised until the other injury in the 4th. The same thing happened with Schilling as I recall: he seemed fine closing out G1 against the Angels and then suddenly was too hurt to pitch effectively in G1 against the Yanks.
 

Al Zarilla

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Amen. But not only does this deprive us of G1Q1 KP, it also moves our effective injury buffer back down to zero again. One more injury to a starter and we're asking Hauser/PP to log 40 min a game and then it gets really hard. Hopefully we close them out quickly and keep this boring.

That's what's so weird: I don't remember him limping at all or looking compromised until the other injury in the 4th. The same thing happened with Schilling as I recall: he seemed fine closing out G1 against the Angels and then suddenly was too hurt to pitch effectively in G1 against the Yanks.
Not true. Schilling hurt his ankle in the game 1 win over the Angels covering first on a grounder. He was visibly limping getting to first. Copilot says he continued to pitch. Not sure how long. Can’t find a video of him limping to first base.
 

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Also, a lot of the disconnect on social media and here is the confusion between the medial patellofemoral retinaculum (MPFL) at the knee and what Porzingis injured at the ankle.

MPFL injuries are very common and entirely unrelated to what happened to KP.

The medial flexor retinaculum at the ankle keeps your medial ankle ligaments in place. He didn’t have a knee injury, patellar dislocation, or anything like that. He hurt his ankle.

Most likely he’s going to need offseason surgery. He can still try to give it a go for a week or two and see how effective he is.
Maybe this was discussed somewhere else and I missed it, but is there any reason to give him two additional days of rest by not playing him in G3 but on Friday in G4?

(I fear Al on only one day rest in G4 may need more support than today, where he is better rested and you could play him 35 minutes and piece together the remaining 13min with Tatum, Luke, X and/or Brissett.)
 

m0ckduck

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Maybe this was discussed somewhere else and I missed it, but is there any reason to give him two additional days of rest by not playing him in G3 but on Friday in G4?

(I fear Al on only one day rest in G4 may need more support than today, where he is better rested and you could play him 35 minutes and piece together the remaining 13min with Tatum, Luke, X and/or Brissett.)
I have no medical expertise at all, but the gist I've gotten from reading commentary is that rest isn't going to help with this particular injury. Using the 'seatbelt' analogy: he's broken the seatbelt that holds the tendons in place... rest isn't going to help him grow a new seatbelt, only surgery is. As long as he can deal with the tendons popping around and can move well enough to benefit the team (unlikely in both cases), then he's probably free to give it a try. (Please jump in, Medically-Informed Person, if I have this wrong).
Not true. Schilling hurt his ankle in the game 1 win over the Angels covering first on a grounder. He was visibly limping getting to first. Copilot says he continued to pitch. Not sure how long. Can’t find a video of him limping to first base.
You're right– now it's all coming back. (I'd remembered that he hurt his foot covering a grounder in the Angels game but forgot there was any visible evidence of injury during that game.)
 

boca

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Dr. Kharrazi said this:
“I don’t think it’s something that he’s gonna make worse by just playing” and I was heartened.
But then he said this: “especially if he’s just running up and down the court and even some lateral movements may be OK.”

Well, basketball isn’t just running up and down the court and even some lateral movements.

Keeping as many fingers and toes crossed as possible.
Yeah that "lateral movements" quote jumped out.

You're not playing basketball at any level when "some lateral movements may be ok"
 

m0ckduck

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I'm still just reeling from the fact that he's suffered three ostensibly unrelated leg injuries in his last three games (dating back to the Miami series game where he suffered the soletus strain). I mean, I guess it's unknowable whether they are truly unrelated b/c compensating for one injury can make one susceptible to another, blah blah blah... but's it still pretty crazy.
 

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Yeah that "lateral movements" quote jumped out.

You're not playing basketball at any level when "some lateral movements may be ok"
I think this is the part many are ignoring. Yes it is about pain threshold to be out there….but it is also about performance, not being a detriment and your teammates trusting you to be able to do what they expect out of you. There is more than the pain hurdle for Kristaps to jump here.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm still just reeling from the fact that he's suffered three ostensibly unrelated leg injuries in his last three games (dating back to the Miami series game where he suffered the soletus strain). I mean, I guess it's unknowable whether they are truly unrelated b/c compensating for one injury can make one susceptible to another, blah blah blah... but's it still pretty crazy.
I mean it’s great that the players are wearing the Walton t-shirts and honoring Bill and all that…..but damn Kristaps, you don’t have to go so extreme in honoring Bill.
 

m0ckduck

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I think this is the part many are ignoring. Yes it is about pain threshold to be out there….but it is also about performance, not being a detriment and your teammates trusting you to be able to do what they expect out of you. There is more than the pain hurdle for Kristaps to jump here.
I was just replaying in my mind those awesome G1/G2 sequences where he caught the ball at the nail on switches and shot over shorter players. I can't imagine him doing the necessary jockeying for position required for those plays with limited lateral push-off (not to mention hunting down alley-oop lob passes and everything else required for him to be a better option than Horford and Kornet).
 

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I was just replaying in my mind those awesome G1/G2 sequences where he caught the ball at the nail on switches and shot over shorter players. I can't imagine him doing the necessary jockeying for position required for those plays with limited lateral push-off (not to mention hunting down alley-oop lob passes and everything else required for him to be a better option than Horford and Kornet).
Again, though, he had this injury in the 3rd and was doing all this without it really being noticeable. The “separate” injury that took him out of the game is healed.

Why were the Celtics so up front about all this btw? Why not “left ankle soreness,” or “ankle sprain?”
 

lexrageorge

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Again, though, he had this injury in the 3rd and was doing all this without it really being noticeable. The “separate” injury that took him out of the game is healed.

Why were the Celtics so up front about all this btw? Why not “left ankle soreness,” or “ankle sprain?”
Because then a distracting media narrative would take place about how KP isn't able to play through a "simple ankle sprain", Shank and Felger and Mazz would be questioning his toughness, etc. Because of the unusual nature of this injury, it's probably best to be transparent.
 

joe dokes

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Remember when a paralyzed and doped up Willis Reed scored the four most important points in NBA history???
I digress . . . Clyde's 36/7/19(!) (scored or assisted on 31 of Knicks 45 FGs) has always gotten short shrift in NBA Game 7 annals, but both in real time and over time, Frazier himself, Bradley, DeBusschere and Phil Jackson (who wasn't playing) said Reed's appearance and those two first hoops of the game juiced them (and the crowd) to levels they didn't think they had. It also wrecked Wilt's brain (1-11 FTs). He had 45 in Game 6 without Reed playing and thought he was going to skate again. Reed couldn't run or jump in his 25 or so minutes, but Wilt was pretty molasses-like by then, too.

OK...back to this century......
 
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m0ckduck

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I digress . . . Clyde's 36/7/19(!) (scored or assisted on 31 of Knicks 45 FGs) has always gotten short shrift in NBA Game 7 annals, but both in real time and over time, Frazier himself, Bradley, DeBusschere and Phil Jackson (who wasn't playing) said Reed's appearance and those two first hoops of the game juiced them (and the crowd) to levels they didn't think they had. It also wrecked Wilt's brain (1-11 FTs). He had 45 in Game 6 without Reed playing and thought he was going to skate again. Reed couldn't run or jump in his 25 or so minutes, but Wilt was pretty molasses-like by then, too.

OK...back to this century......
Simmons called out Frazier's performance a few weeks ago as pushback against all the hyperbole being thrown Jalen Brunson's way ("best playoff performance in Knicks' history" blah blah). Was one of Simmons' few shining moments this postseason.
 

radsoxfan

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I have no medical expertise at all, but the gist I've gotten from reading commentary is that rest isn't going to help with this particular injury. Using the 'seatbelt' analogy: he's broken the seatbelt that holds the tendons in place... rest isn't going to help him grow a new seatbelt, only surgery is. As long as he can deal with the tendons popping around and can move well enough to benefit the team (unlikely in both cases), then he's probably free to give it a try. (Please jump in, Medically-Informed Person, if I have this wrong).

Agree with this.

It's going to be based on how much discomfort he can tolerate and if he can be effective enough to be useful. A few days of rest isn't likely to make any difference.
 

m0ckduck

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Fwiw, this is him after the injury initially before subsequently rolling his opposite ankle in the 4th. This KP would be perfectly fine. Could be some adrenaline in there, I dunno.
View: https://twitter.com/celticsunite18/status/1800673186847322116?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ
Yeah, I don't understand this part.

Do we officially know that KP injured his leg on that play in the 3rd on the free-throw box-out with Lively that keeps getting cited as the play where he sustained the injury? Has a team source confirmed it? Are we sure the tendon injury didn't actually happen on the same play as when he rolled his ankle in the 4th, for example?

Otherwise, I guess adrenaline is a hell of a drug.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, I don't understand this part.

Do we officially know that KP injured his leg on that play in the 3rd on the free-throw box-out with Lively that keeps getting cited as the play where he sustained the injury? Has a team source confirmed it? Are we sure the tendon injury didn't actually happen on the same play as when he rolled his ankle in the 4th, for example?

Otherwise, I guess adrenaline is a hell of a drug.
KP himself said he bumped kneed with Lively and felt it, so this is it, yes. I did notice him slow a bit, but I thought it was maybe post injury muscle fatigue since he was still moving pretty good and didn’t show any obvious outward signs of discomfort.

My biggest concern with this is I think there will be moments of high impact where KP feels little/nothing, but then other lower impact plays that feel weird and throw him off, and it might fuck with his brain/cause physical hesitation.
 

m0ckduck

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KP himself said he bumped kneed with Lively and felt it, so this is it, yes. I did notice him slow a bit, but I thought it was maybe post injury muscle fatigue since he was still moving pretty good and didn’t show any obvious outward signs of discomfort.
Yeah, he doesn't look 100% in those clips— particularly on the closeout on the KI 3-pointer, he seems to land uncertainly on his right leg. But of course, if he could somehow give us 15 minutes of that, we'd take it in a heartbeat.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, he doesn't look 100% in those clips— particularly on the closeout on the KI 3-pointer, he seems to land uncertainly on his right leg. But of course, if he could somehow give us 15 minutes of that, we'd take it in a heartbeat.
I thought that at first, but I think he was just trying to avoid fouling Kyrie.

The one play I noticed it was the play he turned his right ankle. He was using his left foot for a lateral push to change momentum for a rebound and it looked like the left kind of “caught” and threw him off balance a bit, causing the right to roll. That’s my other concern, is that he’ll be at an even higher risk of injury, not so much acutely in the same area spot as the ligament, but just generally from being off balance.

A lot of this probably depends on what is/isn’t predictable for KP subjectively in terms of what he’s feeling with given movements. Hopefully he can work it out.
 

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Again, though, he had this injury in the 3rd and was doing all this without it really being noticeable. The “separate” injury that took him out of the game is healed.

Why were the Celtics so up front about all this btw? Why not “left ankle soreness,” or “ankle sprain?”
I normally wouldn't expect this of Joe, but I wonder if it's some tit-for-tat gamesmanship with Jason Kidd. The strangely detailed way they've discussed the injury could, as @lexrageorge put it, be getting ahead of a narrative that paints KP as "soft" for sure. But when coupled with Joe's uncharacteristic description of the injury as "serious," it could also be sort of the reverse of the Luka "injury" in that Joe expects Kristaps to play at least some and is looking to fuck with the Mavs' heads a bit. Joe's actual quote in response to a question that noted KP is day-to-day was, “It’s a serious injury. At the end of the day, the medical team is not going to put him in any bad situations. We’ve taken the decision to play out of his hands.” He could have just as easily said, "As you said, we're taking it day by day, and we'll see how he feels on Wednesday" and no one would've thought anything of it. I'm not sure this is what Joe is doing, but it's certainly plausible.
 

m0ckduck

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I normally wouldn't expect this of Joe, but I wonder if it's some tit-for-tat gamesmanship with Jason Kidd. The strangely detailed way they've discussed the injury could, as @lexrageorge put it, be getting ahead of a narrative that paints KP as "soft" for sure. But when coupled with Joe's uncharacteristic description of the injury as "serious," it could also be sort of the reverse of the Luka "injury" in that Joe expects Kristaps to play at least some and is looking to fuck with the Mavs' heads a bit. Joe's actual quote in response to a question that noted KP is day-to-day was, “It’s a serious injury. At the end of the day, the medical team is not going to put him in any bad situations. We’ve taken the decision to play out of his hands.” He could have just as easily said, "As you said, we're taking it day by day, and we'll see how he feels on Wednesday" and no one would've thought anything of it. I'm not sure this is what Joe is doing, but it's certainly plausible.
Of course, the best gamesmanship would be to invent the injury altogether. Maybe he's .... fine?

[ Strained, desperate laughter ]

Do we know if playing on the injured ankle presents additional health issues or is it just an issue of pain mgmt/discomfort for KP?
Has been discussed, verdict is: very unlikely to present additional health issues. Mostly a pain management thing, plus will he have enough mobility to be effective and not hurt the team.
Will Kidd bunt on KP?
Has also been discussed, verdict is: there's a mildly disturbing Slappy / Jason Kidd joke hiding in there someplace.
 
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Ed Hillel

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Has been discussed, verdict is: very unlikely to present additional health issues. Mostly a pain management thing, plus will he have enough mobility to be effective and not hurt the team.
I’m not a doctor, of course, but I feel like this part hasn’t really been put into proper context by some of the Twitter types. I think he’s unlikely to injure the immediate area more because of the acute impact, but I find it hard to believe he’s not more susceptible to injury generally because he won’t be playing with the kind of movement and fluidity his body and brain are used to. Look at that 4th quarter injury, for example. He probably gets an easy rebound if fully healthy and doesn’t roll his right foot.
 

NomarsFool

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It's just bizarre that the Celtics were able to keep KP healthy for the vast majority of the season, and now he's had three lower body injuries right as the playoffs start.
 

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I’m not a doctor, of course, but I feel like this part hasn’t really been put into proper context by some of the Twitter types. I think he’s unlikely to injure the immediate area more because of the acute impact, but I find it hard to believe he’s not more susceptible to injury generally because he won’t be playing with the kind of movement and fluidity his body and brain are used to. Look at that 4th quarter injury, for example. He probably gets an easy rebound if fully healthy and doesn’t roll his right foot.
Yeah, a few of the doctors mentioned that he might not be able to move laterally or jump as well as he normally can, and that it will be awkward, which can in turn lead to a small increase in the chances he injures something else.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, a few of the doctors mentioned that he might not be able to move laterally or jump as well as he normally can, and that it will be awkward, which can in turn lead to a small increase in the chances he injures something else.
It’s probably how he hurt his calf, actually. Turned right ankle, Joe slow on the hook, and boom.
 

radsoxfan

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I’m not a doctor, of course, but I feel like this part hasn’t really been put into proper context by some of the Twitter types. I think he’s unlikely to injure the immediate area more because of the acute impact, but I find it hard to believe he’s not more susceptible to injury generally because he won’t be playing with the kind of movement and fluidity his body and brain are used to. Look at that 4th quarter injury, for example. He probably gets an easy rebound if fully healthy and doesn’t roll his right foot.
That’s probably true, but also true to some degree for a variety of other injuries players play with all the time.

Obviously it’s the finals and he won’t be held out for some unknown % increased risk to a currently healthy body part because he might be moving a bit awkwardly. Just cross your fingers and hope for the best.
 

sezwho

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Do we know if playing on the injured ankle presents additional health issues or is it just an issue of pain mgmt/discomfort for KP?

and

Will Kidd bunt on KP?
I’m fervently hoping that he’s able to push through, but it seems like his lower extremities were designed by faberge and anything that messes with his kinesiology feels like a house of cards.
 

Justthetippett

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Of course, the best gamesmanship would be to invent the injury altogether. Maybe he's .... fine?

[ Strained, desperate laughter ]


Has been discussed, verdict is: very unlikely to present additional health issues. Mostly a pain management thing, plus will he have enough mobility to be effective and not hurt the team.

Has also been discussed, verdict is: there's a mildly disturbing Slappy / Jason Kidd joke hiding in there someplace.
I would be optimistic about his ability to manage pain. He's thirsty for this title and the rest of the locker room is going to be on tilt. He was also along for the ride for the majority of the playoffs and I'm sure wants badly to contribute.

I worry about ineffectiveness, or a medical opinion coming from somewhere they tells him he'll risk a more serious injury and that either makes him sit out altogether or he acts tentative when he's in the game, injuring something else and everyone having to have a long, tortured conversation about injury causality that is based on 100% conjecture.
 

Jimbodandy

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I’m fervently hoping that he’s able to push through, but it seems like his lower extremities were designed by faberge and anything that messes with his kinesiology feels like a house of cards.
This just occurs with higher frequency in super tall (by NBA standards) guys. That's not to say that it's impossible as a 7'3"+ guy to have a long career, but it just seems like bigger guys get these foot/ankle things at higher rates. Knee stuff is equal-opportunity.
 

McBride11

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Also, a lot of the disconnect on social media and here is the confusion between the medial patellofemoral retinaculum (MPFL) at the knee and what Porzingis injured at the ankle.

MPFL injuries are very common and entirely unrelated to what happened to KP.

The medial flexor retinaculum at the ankle keeps your medial ankle ligaments in place. He didn’t have a knee injury, patellar dislocation, or anything like that. He hurt his ankle.

Most likely he’s going to need offseason surgery. He can still try to give it a go for a week or two and see how effective he is.
Throckmorton definitely pointed out the injury
 

Euclis20

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This just occurs with higher frequency in super tall (by NBA standards) guys. That's not to say that it's impossible as a 7'3"+ guy to have a long career, but it just seems like bigger guys get these foot/ankle things at higher rates. Knee stuff is equal-opportunity.
I'll continue hoping that the back half of his career looks like another 7'3 European center that was wracked with injuries for the first part of his career, then rebounded to average 74 games over his final 9 seasons while still being effective enough to make a couple of all-star teams:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html
 

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Cellar-Door

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Out for game 3, which makes me think he's probably out for the season given this isn't really a rest injury.
 

jablo1312

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I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about but i don't really see how if he can't play tn he plays the rest of the series. Hoping I'm wrong.
 

Euclis20

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Out for game 3, which makes me think he's probably out for the season given this isn't really a rest injury.
My first thought too, but even if rest doesn't make it better, it could be a question of pain management and an increased chance of injuring something else. The Celtics don't NEED tonight's game, so we give him the day off and see again in a couple days. If the only thing that changes between now and game 4 (or 5) is that the Celtics odds of winning the title decrease, that could be enough for the team and player to risk him playing, even if nothing has changed with his personal situation.
 

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He’s probably done, unless they’ve decided the best course is to minimize injury risk by only playing him if “necessary.”
 

lexrageorge

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Damn, I was optimistic he was going to play off the bench, given that he was able to play through it for at least part of G2. Guessing he’s not really able to move the way he needs to, so no go. Guessing he could be available for a Game 7
 

radsoxfan

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He’s probably done, unless they’ve decided the best course is to minimize injury risk by only playing him if “necessary.”
Seems most likely done for the series to me also. Certainly not anything that is going to fix itself in a week. All the talk of taping/bracing never made any sense or was going to help.

One of two things must have happened:

-- When he tried to go through some full speed basketball activity he just couldn't do it

-- Docs didn't clear him. I'd be a bit surprised they wouldn't let him try, though I think there is probably a theoretical risk of tibialis posterior tendon damage or rupture with it sliding back of forth, snapping over the medial malleolus, increased friction etc.

If this series does get closer or tied do they play the risk/benefit thing differently? Will the pain improve with some rest? Will they allow KP to override the medical staff?

The injury won't get better but in theory some rest might allow some inflammation to decrease and maybe he can try later in short bursts later? I suppose it's possible... but sure feels like if he doesn't play tonight we have seen the last of KP this year.