Grant “Corner Office” Williams

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I get that these guys get to where they are by being supremely confident in themselves, but if Grant is asking for 14/year and the C's are offering 13/year, he's crazy not to take it. He obviously has an idea what his actual value is with what he's asking, so I think it'd be crazy to turn down a guaranteed 52 million over 4 years because you think you are worth 56. Lock in life altering money, and he's still young enough to get another decent contract. I'd get going to RFA for a guy like Ayton(even though he's miserable) because he was in a position to play into a big, almost max contract. But Grant isn't that level of a player, and I don't know how much he can really expand his value with how this team is constructed(besides a Jay injury). He could also regress shooting and is already looking at a slight minutes reduction due to the additions of Brogdon and to a much lesser extent Blake. I'm by no means trying to defend the C's/corporations, but dude, you can get paid right now, take it and, as long as you're smart with it, be set for life
You nailed it.
 

BigSoxFan

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RFA awaits. I wouldn't be surprised if he received a cooler RFA reception than Smart. High-level complimentary players struggle to get paid the way he expects... Brads got this
Just wouldn’t be worth the risk if I were him. One year ago today, we had big questions about him. He doesn’t have a good athletic profile to fall back on. Lock it in, Grant.
 

Swedgin

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RFA awaits. I wouldn't be surprised if he received a cooler RFA reception than Smart. High-level complimentary players struggle to get paid the way he expects... Brads got this
There are two ways Grant gets paid. 1) Enters RFA following excellent defense performances in the playoffs against elite talent that are fresh in teams minds or 2) scores more and in a greater variety of ways.

Number 2 poses some risk for the Celtics. A Grant focused on getting his, is not what is best for the team. Not suggesting that by itself is a reason for Brad to pay above what he thinks the market will bear, but it is something to keep an eye on.
 

The Mort Report

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There are two ways Grant gets paid. 1) Enters RFA following excellent defense performances in the playoffs against elite talent that are fresh in teams minds or 2) scores more and in a greater variety of ways.

Number 2 poses some risk for the Celtics. A Grant focused on getting his, is not what is best for the team. Not suggesting that by itself is a reason for Brad to pay above what he thinks the market will bear, but it is something to keep an eye on.
If #2 happens then he's going to lose playing time, his role is to play D and hit the corner 3. There should always be at least one of the 3 guards and one of the Jays on the floor at all times, so at max he's the 3rd option(unless injury) and should rarely ever have the ball in his hands. If he starts holding the ball and trying to do whatever Grant's version of "hero ball" looks like(I'm guessing lumbering and not very vertical) he'll lose significant minutes
 

BigSoxFan

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If #2 happens then he's going to lose playing time, his role is to play D and hit the corner 3. There should always be at least one of the 3 guards and one of the Jays on the floor at all times, so at max he's the 3rd option(unless injury) and should rarely ever have the ball in his hands. If he starts holding the ball and trying to do whatever Grant's version of "hero ball" looks like(I'm guessing lumbering and not very vertical) he'll lose significant minutes
If he starts acting up, he may not just get benched. He could get traded. Brad won’t mess around with a team this close to a title. Certainly hope it doesn’t come to that but always a risk when a player is focused on his contract situation.
 

The Mort Report

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If he starts acting up, he may not just get benched. He could get traded. Brad won’t mess around with a team this close to a title. Certainly hope it doesn’t come to that but always a risk when a player is focused on his contract situation.
Yup, 100% correct

Probably for another thread, but one thing I think is underrated about some of these trades, mainly Brogdon and White, is the guys are already on multiyear deals. If White hadn't already been paid, he may not be happy in a reduced role, who knows how he does feel about it, but money isn't in the equation. Grant is the only guy that is part of the rotation that matters that would be playing for a new contract if he doesn't sign(I don't count Al, he has nothing to prove). It's nice stability few teams have 7 players deep
 

benhogan

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There are two ways Grant gets paid. 1) Enters RFA following excellent defense performances in the playoffs against elite talent that are fresh in teams minds or 2) scores more and in a greater variety of ways.

Number 2 poses some risk for the Celtics. A Grant focused on getting his, is not what is best for the team. Not suggesting that by itself is a reason for Brad to pay above what he thinks the market will bear, but it is something to keep an eye on.
I'm perfectly happy going to RFA with a guy like Grant.

It's tough for non-starters, defense-first players to get their "true worth", as we saw with Smart/Happy Walters a few years back.

Contenders, that need complementary/defense-first players rarely have the cap space to add. PLUS they have their own campers to keep happy. Bad teams with the room are looking to add guys that break out, like Brunsen or POINTZ

Grant can't be signed on the cheap (like Portis) since the C's can match.

Brad's GMing is high-level. I like Grant but he overplayed his hand IMHO
 

Eddie Jurak

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If Grant were extended, that would make it very difficult to trade him. To the acquiring team, he would count as the average of his salary for this year and throughout the extension. But for the Celtics, he would count as his current <$4 million salary.

They would need to trade him to a team below the cap in exchange for a cheaper player. It seems unlikely that the Celtics would ever be in a position of wanting to do that this year.

Indont think they would be looking to deal Grant, BTW. But if they need to add a significant player at the deadline he might be part of a deal.
 

Cornboy14

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I'm not a CBA wonk - is there any good reasoning for preventing the teams and players from negotiating extensions during the season?
 

JakeRae

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I'm not a CBA wonk - is there any good reasoning for preventing the teams and players from negotiating extensions during the season?
I would assume, just based on logic, that either the players, the owners, or more likely both view it as beneficial to avoid the distraction of possible in season negotiations.
 

benhogan

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Maybe he's taking his NBAPA job too seriously and wants to get every last $$$?
“It’s one of those things that, you never want to take a bad deal for no one around you,” Williams said. “The role that I play as VP of the player’s association, you understand where the league is going in the future and where the league is currently at. For me, it wasn’t a matter of life-changing money, it was a matter of value, not only for this year, but for years to come. I think that from both sides, we all negotiated from that point, and there was no ill will. There were no frustrations.”

“You look at the guys who didn’t take extensions, they’re pretty much in the same position,” And for me, that’s huge, that’s valuable, because I are about every single player in this league,” Williams said. I care about every single player in each organization that has to deal with free agency, that has to deal with the issues that necessarily we have within in this league. So we’re on the right path. We’re on the right steps. So we just have to go out there and do what we do.”

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/18/23410978/grant-williams-reacts-to-not-agreeing-to-an-extension-with-celtics-boston-nba-contract-deal-76ers

I'm sure Kyrie is doing the same
 

Jimbodandy

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“It’s one of those things that, you never want to take a bad deal for no one around you,” Williams said. “The role that I play as VP of the player’s association, you understand where the league is going in the future and where the league is currently at. For me, it wasn’t a matter of life-changing money, it was a matter of value, not only for this year, but for years to come. I think that from both sides, we all negotiated from that point, and there was no ill will. There were no frustrations.”

“You look at the guys who didn’t take extensions, they’re pretty much in the same position,” And for me, that’s huge, that’s valuable, because I are about every single player in this league,” Williams said. I care about every single player in each organization that has to deal with free agency, that has to deal with the issues that necessarily we have within in this league. So we’re on the right path. We’re on the right steps. So we just have to go out there and do what we do.”

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/18/23410978/grant-williams-reacts-to-not-agreeing-to-an-extension-with-celtics-boston-nba-contract-deal-76ers

I'm sure Kyrie is doing the same
Maybe he ends up in the same place or even a bit better, but this has big downside risk. I hope that he doesn't end up in a Nerlens Schroder situation and worry a bit that the PA job is coloring his decision. C'est la vie. It's not the worst thing in the world if he has a shooting star year and gets a huge, unmatchable offer somewhere else. That wouldn't really be bad at all. Ima start cheering for that outcome actually. Getting a massive value year from a bench rotation player is a gift.
 

benhogan

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Maybe he ends up in the same place or even a bit better, but this has big downside risk. I hope that he doesn't end up in a Nerlens Schroder situation and worry a bit that the PA job is coloring his decision. C'est la vie. It's not the worst thing in the world if he has a shooting star year and gets a huge, unmatchable offer somewhere else. That wouldn't really be bad at all. Ima start cheering for that outcome actually. Getting a massive value year from a bench rotation player is a gift.
Agreed, play for pay doesn't hurt the C's one bit. Still have matching (+S&T) rights

His reaction is much better than "Brad/Boston doesn't respect me or what I bring to this team. I'm better than a lot of those players in my draft class that got paid!"
 

Jimbodandy

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Agreed, play for pay doesn't hurt the C's one bit. Still have matching (+S&T) rights

His reaction is much better than "Brad/Boston doesn't respect me or what I bring to this team. I'm better than a lot of those players in my draft class that got paid!"
Agreed completely. I'm less worried about him in a walk year than just about anyone. And in the odd event that he became an issue, he's a value guy to move. Doubt it comes to that. If I had to guess, we re-sign him next offseason at about what we'd expect and half the forum will cry overpay a la Bradley, Crowder, and Smart.
 

jasail

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Pro athletes have short careers and narrow windows to accumulate generational wealth. I'd rather the folks breaking their backs to entertain me make it as much as humanly possible than have those dollars stay in the pockets of billionaire owners who own the program. Accordingly, I'm here to cheer for any pro-athlete taking the opportunity to bet on themselves and cash in for a higher paycheck. That said, if I were Grant, I'd have taken the money. I don't see the risk/reward being in his favor. I think the likelihood the market for Grant ends up softer than where it is at now is a far better bet than him outperforming his current market. That said, I hope he balls out and proves me wrong.
 

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Agreed, play for pay doesn't hurt the C's one bit. Still have matching (+S&T) rights

His reaction is much better than "Brad/Boston doesn't respect me or what I bring to this team. I'm better than a lot of those players in my draft class that got paid!"
Very much so. This is the statement of a professional. Plus, I like the whole playher's association role; good, important work, basketball focused, high character building—you can do a lot worse in a teammate than having a guy who's thinking about player solidarity all the time—all that jazz. I wish a deal had gotten done, but in its absence, this is what I want to hear.
 

TripleOT

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Taking last year‘s three point shooting as a baseline, if Grant misses one more three-pointer every month of the season, he’s now at 37% three-point shooter who is a low-volume scorer who doesn’t really do much else on offense . I get why he wanted to bet on himself, but barely better than average three point shooters who only score a point every five minutes and and don’t do anything else probably aren’t commanding more money than the reputed $11-12 million per that might have been out there for Grant. I can see why a defensive oriented player like Matisse Thybulle would gamble on shooting better this year, since he shot so poorly last year from three, but Grant had a really good long distance shooting year last season.

I like the way he had been taking the ball to the basket this preseason and if he can bump up to a 10 point per game score and still hit the three ball at 40%, he’s probably going to get another two or three million a year from what was offered already
 

NomarsFool

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The only thing I'm concerned about is that I hope he doesn't get frustrated at any perceived lack of playing time or scoring opportunities. The last thing we need is to have him causing problems because he's concerned he's not getting the opportunity to show what he can do to earn a big paycheck.
 

benhogan

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Taking last year‘s three point shooting as a baseline, if Grant misses one more three-pointer every month of the season, he’s now at 37% three-point shooter who is a low-volume scorer who doesn’t really do much else on offense . I get why he wanted to bet on himself, but barely better than average three point shooters who only score a point every five minutes and and don’t do anything else probably aren’t commanding more money than the reputed $11-12 million per that might have been out there for Grant. I can see why a defensive oriented player like Matisse Thybulle would gamble on shooting better this year, since he shot so poorly last year from three, but Grant had a really good long distance shooting year last season.

I like the way he had been taking the ball to the basket this preseason and if he can bump up to a 10 point per game score and still hit the three ball at 40%, he’s probably going to get another two or three million a year from what was offered already
I agree that he should have taken the money. BUT Grant should be confident that he's a 40% 3pt shooter

If you take his last 2.5 seasons including 8 playoff series he's smack dab at 40% from 3 (228/571).
His % & volume have also been trending up.
 

lovegtm

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It wasn't just that he made some shots: he played well on Embiid (in the context of the overall help scheme), and was unlucky to get some truly awful fouls called on him, even by Embiid standards.

Embiid is about as bad a center matchup as there is for Grant in the NBA, so if he can play even him credibly, he's going to get a lot of minutes while TL is out (and Gallo gone all year too).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Grant was damn good tonite.
I'm not sure why Mazzulla went with the weird bench unit to start the 4Q (GW, Blake, Hauser, White, and Brogdan, IIRC) but GW's pump fake and then 3P swish as the shot clock was winding down was a key bucket at that moment. Didn't know he had that in him.

One thing to note from the broadcast is that SVG downgraded GW from "potential DPOY candidate" (he mentioned this during the playoffs) to "very good defender," the latter coming as Maxey was driving past GW for a layup. (Note: not necessarily blaming GW for this as none of the Cs were very successful in keeping Maxey in front of them.)
 

bosockboy

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Is Grant becoming a problem? He was bitching at Joe tonight, presumably about minutes or substitutions. If he’s going to be a problem about his future contract, Brad should maybe look at a trade.
 

kazuneko

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Different challenge conversation, then: the first one that I was thinking of was when Grant fouled Garland on a 3 with 2:30 left in the 1st.
I think it should be noted that there is a good chance the Cs win the game had Mazzulla listened to Grant. Sadly, it seems like Joe has adopted Udoka's worst trait as a coach: namely, saving all his challenges to the end, and then not even using them. There were two clear miscalls early on and one was that 3 pointer (and Garland hit all 3 shots). Not sure why NBA coaches can't understand that you have to take those points when their available..
 

joe dokes

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I think it should be noted that there is a good chance the Cs win the game had Mazzulla listened to Grant. Sadly, it seems like Joe has adopted Udoka's worst trait as a coach: namely, saving all his challenges to the end, and then not even using them. There were two clear miscalls early on and one was that 3 pointer (and Garland hit all 3 shots). Not sure why NBA coaches can't understand that you have to take those points when their available..
I tuned in pretty late. But as the announcers pointed out, challenging the 4th Q foul would have been counterproductive, as "winning" the challenge would mean side-out Cleveland (and more time off the clock before the next foul), rather than foul shots. More than that, though, just as we talk body language with refs --- Smart is always talking to them, but not nearly as frequently gesturing at them -- Grant's obvious displeasure with the Coach not challenging the late foul was far too animated for me.
 

Spelunker

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I tuned in pretty late. But as the announcers pointed out, challenging the 4th Q foul would have been counterproductive, as "winning" the challenge would mean side-out Cleveland (and more time off the clock before the next foul), rather than foul shots. More than that, though, just as we talk body language with refs --- Smart is always talking to them, but not nearly as frequently gesturing at them -- Grant's obvious displeasure with the Coach not challenging the late foul was far too animated for me.
Right. Grant's earlier challenge request would have been more impactful, taking 3 points off the board. ;)
 

TrapperAB

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I tuned in pretty late. But as the announcers pointed out, challenging the 4th Q foul would have been counterproductive, as "winning" the challenge would mean side-out Cleveland (and more time off the clock before the next foul), rather than foul shots. More than that, though, just as we talk body language with refs --- Smart is always talking to them, but not nearly as frequently gesturing at them -- Grant's obvious displeasure with the Coach not challenging the late foul was far too animated for me.
What got me was Grant’s eye roll as he walked away. If I’m Mazzulla and I see video of that, I’m calling him into my office and telling the kid to cut the shit. But then, there’s no way I’d ever last as a coach — I’d call everyone on their shit, including the refs, and get fired in record time.
 

lovegtm

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Thought Grant (and Horford) did a really good job slowing down Ja after the 3rd quarter outburst. He continues to impress with his defensive versatility; quick feet for his size.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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Maybe others already knew this but I recently learned that Grant has been working with Chris Matthews, aka Lethal Shooter, on his shot so not at all surprised to see sustained success with the 3 pointer. Hoping Brad can figure something out to keep Grant around long term.
 

DGreenwood

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I don't think Brad will need to figure anything out, he'll just need support from ownership to match an rfa offer. It'll be interesting because the Celtics won't have any real avenue to replace him with a comparable player so it'll come down to paying what it takes to keep him (and the tax associated with that) or deciding that they think they can still win with that much less talent on the roster.
 

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I don't think Brad will need to figure anything out, he'll just need support from ownership to match an rfa offer. It'll be interesting because the Celtics won't have any real avenue to replace him with a comparable player so it'll come down to paying what it takes to keep him (and the tax associated with that) or deciding that they think they can still win with that much less talent on the roster.
I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that Hereford retires after this year, especially if they manage to hoist #18. Al's $26 this year would not be far off GW's $15-18 even with tax implications. This iteration with Al and Grant (with Kornet and others) manning the big(s) role could become TL and Grant next year easily enough.
 

DGreenwood

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I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that Hereford retires after this year, especially if they manage to hoist #18. Al's $26 this year would not be far off GW's $15-18 even with tax implications. This iteration with Al and Grant (with Kornet and others) manning the big(s) role could become TL and Grant next year easily enough.
I agree. I've thought of that before (that Grant is the long term Al replacement). If the Celtics are committed to winning, I think they'll match any rfa offer, even if they consider it a slight overpay. It's not like he's going to get a max offer or anything close.

If he doesn't get (or doesn't accept) an rfa offer, that's when we'll really need Brad to come through, because I guess I could see Grant gambling on himself again and becoming an ufa the year after. He seems very confident in himself.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that Hereford retires after this year, especially if they manage to hoist #18. Al's $26 this year would not be far off GW's $15-18 even with tax implications. This iteration with Al and Grant (with Kornet and others) manning the big(s) role could become TL and Grant next year easily enough.
Al does not look like a player who is done. I mean, just look at him and then look at Blake. I would hope the Celtics would be able to extend Al on a team friendly deal.
 

The Mort Report

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Even if he doesn't retire, Al's not sniffing anywhere close to $26 mil. I also don't see him trying to max out his money either since he's made so much, and any "big" offer would have to come from a team no where close to a championship. I would be surprised if he doesn't come back at a 2 year, $20-$24 mil total contract, and Grant can eat up the rest

edit: too many negatives
 

PedroKsBambino

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I agree. I've thought of that before (that Grant is the long term Al replacement). If the Celtics are committed to winning, I think they'll match any rfa offer, even if they consider it a slight overpay. It's not like he's going to get a max offer or anything close.

If he doesn't get (or doesn't accept) an rfa offer, that's when we'll really need Brad to come through, because I guess I could see Grant gambling on himself again and becoming an ufa the year after. He seems very confident in himself.
I was surprised they didn't find a way to an extension in the offseason, and I don't fully know what to make of that. My concern level about Grant going elsewhere was super low---his profile almost never gets paid, his profile has pluses and minuses (some advanced stats have been blah, for example), and Celts do need him role-wise and lack of replacement options. It has risen slightly given the lack of an extension - though, still isn't that high....seems like both will choose each other in the end. I don't think impossible he wants to bet on himself, and also could imagine his player's association role impacting his choices.

I would guess if they really get tight tax-money wise they'd think about losing one of Brogdon, Smart, White before letting Grant go for nothing. But I doubt any of that is necessary...my sense is ownership will write the check if they have to
 

chilidawg

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Grant's a solid player but thinking of him as Al's replacement is just foolish. His lack of length will always keep his ceiling well below that of Al. Need to go outside to fill that role, but hopefully that's more than a year off.
 

lovegtm

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Grant's a solid player but thinking of him as Al's replacement is just foolish. His lack of length will always keep his ceiling well below that of Al. Need to go outside to fill that role, but hopefully that's more than a year off.
I don't think they'll ever replace Al's role tbh: Tatum will become a quick 4 more and more over time (already is), and they'll find true bigs to play in 1-big lineups.

It's a lot easier to like Grant if you call him what he is: a big wing who can guard up and down quite well. That also happens to be a position the Celtics need to fill long-term, and it's hard to see his money getting so crazy that they don't think he's the guy to fill it.
 

benhogan

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Grant's a solid player but thinking of him as Al's replacement is just foolish. His lack of length will always keep his ceiling well below that of Al. Need to go outside to fill that role, but hopefully that's more than a year off.
Nobody is saying Grant is better than or plays exactly "like" Al Horford. BUT a future line-up of TL/Grant/JAYs/Marcus was beastly last season (2nd most used lineup but most efficient) and would probably be even better in future seasons. I'm not sure when Horford's expiry date is, but hopefully not for a few more seasons. This also doesn't prevent Brad from going out and adding a 4 or 5 (these pages are littered with Poeltl or Vanderbilt requests) this season.

I also don't want to get into the "positional semantics" game of BIG, sWing, Center, 4, 5, wing, big wing, etc. Grant is a very switchable defender, who can handle "larger players", and is a threat on the perimeter offensively, much like Al.

If you are saying you don't love the idea of Grant being THE CENTER, then I 100% agree with you. I think he is best next to a Rob, Al, Luke, Vonleh, Blake or whatever large person they add.
 
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Jimbodandy

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Good discussion on this page.

FWIW, I think that the "Al replacement" discussion is a bit of a diversion. The problem that we have now is that we really only have one guy on the team whose skillset and body is ideal for the "Big" role, and he's a JAG (Kornet). Al's too old to play big for long, Blake is only a big in the sense that he's tall and slow now, Vonleh/Cabin Jelly are really not big enough to play real minutes, TL can't stay healthy. We need a TL replacement, and this is not Grant. Grant provides great positional flexibility from beef small to short big. The Poeltl jones is about getting a true big in here, not another 4 in disguise.