They exist, but nothing that is a realistic trade target. I'd still argue that in the playoffs especially, it's really helpful to be able to have your 5 best players on the court at the same time. That isn't the case with the Celtics as currently constructed. I agree, I am thrilled with the production they have gotten out of Theis and Kanter - much better than I think any of us would have expected. But, in the final minutes of the close out game of the ECF, I'm going to be annoyed to see one of Smart, Hayward, or Brown on the bench because we need to have a big out there.I was in your camp this past summer (wanted Danny to try and add Turner or Sabonis) but my position has evolved.
Who is the 5 equally as talented as Hayward?
The Knicks can get far enough under the cap to swallow Mr DARcy’s deal outright, so picks plus a TPE > picks + {insert random Knicks player(s) here}. Minnesota is far less appetizing because all they really have is Covington and mid firsts (in the future), and they’d probably want to hold on to Covington adding a defensive player like Russell.Out of curiosity, if GS were to execute a sign-trade involving DLo and a third team to try to slot Hayward in with Steph, Klay & Draymond, what kind of a package would you be looking for from that third team? Would, say, MitchRob + Randle + Knicks picks or Covington + Dieng + Wolves picks have any appeal?
Wait. I thought high priced 5s are the new high priced 4s.High priced 4s are the new high priced 5s.
it's easy.... don't draft, pay or play anyone taller than 6'10"Wait. I thought high priced 5s are the new high priced 4s.
Get benhogan in here, stat!
It's a league of opportunity. Hayward has played great these past 3 games without Tatum around to consume touches so he's been back in his Utah system days when he knows the offense is running though him each time up the floor. If my memory is correct this has also been the case in other games when one of Tatum/Brown are out......and further shows how awful last seasons roster compilation was when you also had Morris and Rozier with the ball in their hands in addition to Tatum/Brown.I can't think of another athlete where in the span of a week the majority of the board (not all!) shift in sentiment from this guy is a negative that we can't dump and we're screwed to oh my god if he keeps this up he's going to opt out and we're screwed. If we smooth it all out, he's probably where most of us hoped his upside was coming back from the major injury. If he's going to keep improving then we should definitely get excited. I'm just so happy this team is back to being so fun to watch that I pull up a laptop to stream games even if I'm doing something else. Such a big difference as a fan from where we were at the end of last season and beginning of the off-season.
There is a counter argument to this: there is only one ball. The 2 to 3 centers they have play a subordinate role in the offense. Not just the absence of plays run for them, but existing to screen, seal, rebound, garbage collect. If you put a 5 on the floor that was equally as talented as the others, it's a bigger ask (at least offensively) to play a subordinate game. So in as much as Theis/Kanter are operating within the team construct, they might belong on the court as a cohesive part of the top performing unit of 5, even if you wouldn't view them as a core part of the team, or an all-star candidate.They exist, but nothing that is a realistic trade target. I'd still argue that in the playoffs especially, it's really helpful to be able to have your 5 best players on the court at the same time. That isn't the case with the Celtics as currently constructed. I agree, I am thrilled with the production they have gotten out of Theis and Kanter - much better than I think any of us would have expected. But, in the final minutes of the close out game of the ECF, I'm going to be annoyed to see one of Smart, Hayward, or Brown on the bench because we need to have a big out there.
+1There is a counter argument to this: there is only one ball. The 2 to 3 centers they have play a subordinate role in the offense. Not just the absence of plays run for them, but existing to screen, seal, rebound, garbage collect. If you put a 5 on the floor that was equally as talented as the others, it's a bigger ask (at least offensively) to play a subordinate game. So in as much as Theis/Kanter are operating within the team construct, they might belong on the court as a cohesive part of the top performing unit of 5, even if you wouldn't view them as a core part of the team, or an all-star candidate.
I agree 100%!+1
Can't have five offensive alpha's on the floor at once. You need a lunchpail/defense-first player that will defer to the 4 other offensive options.
It's one of the reasons Marcus Morris starting last season was a mistake. And bringing Kanter off the bench is very effective this year. Enis can be a top 3 scoring option when CBS puts lunchpail players like Wanamaker, Semi, Smart on the court with him.
Brad has been pretty clever with rotations this season. He has tried to stagger Kemba, JT, JB, Hayward minutes so they always have 1-2 of them on the floor.I agree 100%!
The Celts have three excellent players in that mode: Smart (who would be in the HOF if voters cared less about scoring and more about defense and all the vital little things), Williams, and Theis. I’d love it if they could add one more bench-level guy, like Kanter, who could generate offense from the second unit, preferably from the wing position.
Ironically, the Marcus Morris who’s not trying to earn a big contract is exactly the type of player they could use. A James Posey, a Scott Wedman, going back to championship teams gone by.
Yup, there should be some vet available, and the Celtics system doesn't rely too much on center shooting, so that opens up options as well....
Basically 100% of the 2020 free agent Centers: Favors, Gasol, Tristen Thompson, Ibaka, Biyombo, Mahinmi, Plumlee, Drummond, Whiteside will see pay cuts in a talentless free-agent market. No thanks on Love, Adams, Dieng, Dedmon or Aldridge.
...
Not to quibble too much on the bolded, but I think the Celtics match up better against the West than the East. If they are Maybe conference contenders, they're also Maybe championship contenders imo....
Fundamentally a lot of it comes down to whether you think that the Cs are legit championship contenders or at least conference championship ones. For me it's No and Maybe, which makes looking at next year without GH more palatable. If I were closer on the 2020 or bust end of the continuum, I'd loathe the idea of trading him.
I'm not trying to slow-walk the run. I just think that there are at least two teams that we can't beat in a 7 game series--this year. I'm much more bullish on next year and the one after.At the end of the day, I agree that there doesn't seem to be a great move at the moment, but it is important to keep in mind that the Kemba clock is ticking. They'll be lucky if he is this player on years 3/4 of the deal, and I doubt they re-sign him after that.
Really finding his groove again, especially finding that ability to stop on a dime and hit those short pull-ups that basically can't be defended. But also getting to the rim better to score or draw fouls. He's looking more and more like the guy who looked like our best player through the first couple weeks.Hayward's last 7 games:
21.3 points, 7.6 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 48.3% from three.
Yep, it pretty much behooves every player to have some kind of injury attached to their name at some point in the season for the purposes of not shelling out 6-figure fines for giving guys the night off. As long as there is some plausible deniability, the league will let it slide.100%
Yeah, I think not making a move at the deadline was a commitment to Hayward longer term over someone like Bertans or Bogdanovic. There’s a path to keep him without going too deep into the tax if he takes a discount to re-sign, they keep the bigs cheap and Grant/Langford develop.20-8-4 on 50-46-90% shooting in his last 10, and not coincidentally they've won 8 of them, even though 8/10 they were missing at least 1 of the other big 3. I honestly think he might be their most important player to making a run in the playoffs, he just does everything so well when he's on.
Kyrie specifically made quotes about his future contract before the season had even started, that was half the problem.What were you expecting him to say? Need we dig out Kyrie quotes from the time after he’d begun recruiting for the Nets?
Kyrie and Hayward aren't cut from the same cloth at all. I'd take Gordon at his word at this point. I never believed anything out of Kyrie.What were you expecting him to say? Need we dig out Kyrie quotes from the time after he’d begun recruiting for the Nets?
a precursor to that's my agents' job to handle those details (at seasons end) which lead to accepting the highest offer (in the summer)According to Heyworld! himself (and contrary to Nighthob's assertion ), GH has not given one iota of thought to his contract: https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/02/02/gordon-hayward-hasnt-pondered-his-contract-decision-hes-just-thinking-about-a-title-with-the-celtics/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
“I haven’t thought about it at all,” he said. “I haven’t thought about it at all.”At all?“Nope,” Hayward said. “I’ve never done that. When I was a restricted free agent, I didn’t think about it. Then when I was a free agent (unrestricted in 2017), I honestly didn’t think about it until after the season. I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it this time, too.”
Absolutely. I'm sure these guys are all NBA fans in general, watching what is going on around the league - seeing how teams are doing, what they are not doing. I'm sure he talks to his agent all the time, and his agent (if they are worth anything) must be looking at who has cap space and who might be able to fit him in next summer.I think Hayward is more professional. But trust me, he’s thought about it.
Yeah, it’s funny, because we think of him as a heady, unselfish guy (possibly due to race, but I think also the whole Indiana/Utah/“plays the right way” thing), but on the defensive end that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.Fwiw, it was driving me batshit during the bad streak. He's still doing it, but it's either not as frequent or not as noticeable (since they're winning anyway).
Doesn't Hayward pretty much have a lifetime free pass on "Inactive - foot"?Yep, it pretty much behooves every player to have some kind of injury attached to their name at some point in the season for the purposes of not shelling out 6-figure fines for giving guys the night off. As long as there is some plausible deniability, the league will let it slide.
Interesting questions. I want to preface this by saying that I think Gordon Hayward is a good basketball player, which the overall numbers and eye-test do show. So without further ado...And, yet, among the team's top 6 players, Hayward's net on/off rating is 2nd, trailing only Tatum. And none of his defensive metrics look awful.
Is this a case where while there are bad plays that are easily singled out, there are a number of unspectactular good plays that simply don't make the reels?
Thanks for doing this. That first clip (and the play before that as well) is a little weird because on both plays, they allowed Kemba to play Adams man up. I'm not sure if they were testing something or just didn't have their heads in the game but after those two plays, when they ran the PnR to get Adams onto Kemba, the Cs either switched Kemba out or if Kemba was on Adams in the post, there was generally an immediate hard double team. Both of which one would expect the game plan to say.
Gallo, not Adams, but yeah.Thanks for doing this. That first clip (and the play before that as well) is a little weird because on both plays, they allowed Kemba to play Adams man up. I'm not sure if they were testing something or just didn't have their heads in the game but after those two plays, when they ran the PnR to get Adams onto Kemba, the Cs either switched Kemba out or if Kemba was on Adams in the post, there was generally an immediate hard double team. Both of which one would expect the game plan to say.
Perfectly put. Hayward definitely does have this level of engagement and effort in him: I was just re-watching the Indy playoff series last year to look at Tatum, and it looks like a different Gordon out there off-ball. Hopefully this is just a minor lull/mental grind of the long season. He has been a slightly net-negative defender most of his career, except for his contract year in Utah when he was awesome....
The Celtics are not going to win any championships anymore based on "we have [Larry Bird | Bill Russell | etc] and you don't". They're going to win, as in 2008, on the back of very-good players and defensive intensity, on the back of executing well a higher percentage of the time. So this stuff is actually concerning and it's important to track it because we need to be showing a steady trend of limiting our mistakes.
I think that your entire assessment is correct. He's not killing them defensively, but he has some bigtime focus/effort deficiencies at times on D. It just is.Perfectly put. Hayward definitely does have this level of engagement and effort in him: I was just re-watching the Indy playoff series last year to look at Tatum, and it looks like a different Gordon out there off-ball. Hopefully this is just a minor lull/mental grind of the long season. He has been a slightly net-negative defender most of his career, except for his contract year in Utah when he was awesome.
I think that's entirely possible, and it's something I'll be looking for. Not trying to trash GH--this is just a key variable for the Cs' championship equity.Their last 21 games have either been B2B's or a single day off in between. So the OKC road game may not be all that representative of the team's defensive effort in the playoffs.
Most NBA players pace themselves on one or the other end. It is extremely difficult to exert energy necessary to be a creator on offense plus still have energy to play first-class defense. With GH taking on a larger offensive role, I think you are correct that sometimes he paces himself on that end.Fwiw, I think that he paces himself at that end. And given that he knows best how much he has in the tank (i.e. foot), I honestly don't habe a big problem with it.
Yeah, it would be interesting to check. Based on deep-diving Tatum (see video in his thread): he doesn’t really have these types of brain-farts. He has some technical mistakes and miscommunications, but he’s clearly mentally engaged pretty the whole time he’s on the court.The videos are great - thank you for sharing - but I see players widely regarded as great defenders taking plays off, missing rotations and failing to help a few times each game.
Hayward may well be worse than your average player and its probably impractical to do a real example rich comparison. However, I would be interested in how often a player slacks per game versus what other players do. I suspect that even good D types are all around the same range including guys like Gobert, Beverley, Butler and George but that is just a guess.
Butler would be a good comp with a good reputation.Yeah, it would be interesting to check. Based on deep-diving Tatum (see video in his thread): he doesn’t really have these types of brain-farts. He has some technical mistakes and miscommunications, but he’s clearly mentally engaged pretty the whole time he’s on the court.
My guess, just based on the personalities and team situations of the guys you mentioned, is that most of them except George don’t space out like this. Obviously some really smart, elite guys like LeBron will just totally take plays off, but he’s a unique situation.
I’m fine to go deeper on a couple of those other top defenders if there’s interest. I’m bored of hypotheticals and stat-based overviews—the actual raw footage is a lot richer and more interesting.