Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

TripleOT

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The worst scenario would have been for GH to play really well in the playoffs, then opt out and flee somewhere for no compensation. I guess that could happen if the league starts up again.

Has Hayward had enough NBA down time to be healthy?
 

BigSoxFan

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Yeah, last night I re-watched the last game before the shutdown, against Indy. Gordon was really looking good.

I don't see a path for GSW to get him without routing Wiggins through a third team though, and even the Knicks might not be that dumb. I guess Draymond? That's an interesting one that I don't have a strong opinion on yet.

Miami would have to be Olynyk and Iggy coming the other way for money to work. I don't really see the point of that for the Celtics unless the Heat are including someone like Herro, which sounds too high.

Indy for Turner or Sabonis makes the most sense both ways, but there's bad blood there and the Pacers might think Hayward is a flight risk.

After that, I'm not really sure.
Hayward is the most Indiana dude in the league. I can’t see him being a flight risk if he gets dealt there.
 

lovegtm

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I don't think an opt-in by Hayward was ever bad for the Celtics, he showed enough this year that you'd much rather have him than not have him *especially since they would have no cap space either way. If anything an opt-in was good because you didn't have to commit long term.
Point was different. This isn't about Hayward per se--it's a simple adverse selection thing with player options. It gets exercised if the player is underperforming, and if he's playing well, he opts out to sign a new deal.

The potentially flat or declining cap changed that, and now there are more scenarios where Hayward could opt in even when playing well (which, as you noted, he very much is) and have it still make sense for him.
 

BigSoxFan

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Obviously I'd be happy if Indy thinks so, because I'd love to pair Sabonis with Tatum and Brown longterm (although I don't think it's happening).
I’d happily add our other Indiana dude to complete that deal. But, yeah, can’t see them giving up Sabonis.

Remind me on the bad blood. Paul George related?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I have a hard time seeing the Pacers dealing a "cost-controlled" player like Sabonis who is still improving. If they want to move anyone, its Turner and while I know there are still people clinging on to the notion that the C's are one "BIG" away from being a championship contender, I simply don't see Ainge trading assets away for a guy like him.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, last night I re-watched the last game before the shutdown, against Indy. Gordon was really looking good.

I don't see a path for GSW to get him without routing Wiggins through a third team though, and even the Knicks might not be that dumb. I guess Draymond? That's an interesting one that I don't have a strong opinion on yet.

Miami would have to be Olynyk and Iggy coming the other way for money to work. I don't really see the point of that for the Celtics unless the Heat are including someone like Herro, which sounds too high.

Indy for Turner or Sabonis makes the most sense both ways, but there's bad blood there and the Pacers might think Hayward is a flight risk.

After that, I'm not really sure.
I think a summer three way with Hayward to Golden State, Wiggins/Golden St #1 to New York, and New York's 2021 #1 to Boston might be palatable to everyone. Boston generates a huge trade exception to add talent and a pick that is generally odds on to be top 8. And given that Kuminga is also strongly considering reclassifying, that draft's looking like a monster.
 

nighthob

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I have a hard time seeing the Pacers dealing a "cost-controlled" player like Sabonis who is still improving. If they want to move anyone, its Turner and while I know there are still people clinging on to the notion that the C's are one "BIG" away from being a championship contender, I simply don't see Ainge trading assets away for a guy like him.
Yeah, C is the lest important spot on the floor, Boston's not tying up their payroll in one no matter how much people groove on his game. It's like my buddy the Nets fan dreaming that the Wizards will send them Beal for salary cruft and Jared Allen. I mean he's a nice C and all, but there are several guys in line to be the next Jared Allen in this draft.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, C is the lest important spot on the floor, Boston's not tying up their payroll in one no matter how much people groove on his game. It's like my buddy the Nets fan dreaming that the Wizards will send them Beal for salary cruft and Jared Allen. I mean he's a nice C and all, but there are several guys in line to be the next Jared Allen in this draft.
Agreed. I have huge respect for Sabonis' game (a younger, better Baynes). BUT I expect Danny will just go cheap at the 5. When you have Kemba, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart getting shots, the C's just need a handful of cheap, veteran 5s that play high energy defense, set picks, and defer offensively. Daniel Theis is that dude. If Danny could add Poeltl in the offseason for less than $4MM, he'd be worth it. Kanter, w/Stevens help was passable defensively and added offense to the 2nd unit. Dozens of serviceable, veteran 5s will be available on the cheap this offseason.

This team is going to be a championship contender next season on the back of Tatum and Brown continuing their leaps.

and Hayward's salary slot will eventually be eaten up by JB/JT raises, unless Wyc wants to write big checks.
 

InstaFace

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He's gotta be thinking "I timed this PERFECTLY, the kid was gonna be born right smack in the middle of the offseason, there was going to be no problems whatsoever... and then ALL THIS CRAP COMES ALONG..."
 

DJnVa

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Only a 4 day quarantine when he returns. Obviously, hope the birth goes smoothly and, much less important, the timing works out for the team.
 

nighthob

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Only a 4 day quarantine when he returns. Obviously, hope the birth goes smoothly and, much less important, the timing works out for the team.
He's going to get a blood transfusion from Marcus to immunize him from the Covid, only there's going to be a lab accident where the blood becomes radioactive, and when Gordon gets back he's going to have SuperMarcus powers and win the Finals MVP after they trounce the Lakers 4-0.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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He's going to get a blood transfusion from Marcus to immunize him from the Covid, only there's going to be a lab accident where the blood becomes radioactive, and when Gordon gets back he's going to have SuperMarcus powers and win the Finals MVP after they trounce the Lakers 4-0.
I've learned from sci-fi movies that you ALWAYS take attributes from the person you get a transfusion from. Of course the only side effect of a transfusion from Marcus is launching shots basically right when reaching halfcourt time to time.
 

nighthob

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On the other hand watching Embiid collapse in tears at mid court game four would be high comedy.
 

lovegtm

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It’s criminal how often they run Smart as the primary PnR guy with Hayward spotted up around the action as opposed to vice versa. Hayward’s burst is clearly back, and he really needs more primary touches.
 

sezwho

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It’s criminal how often they run Smart as the primary PnR guy with Hayward spotted up around the action as opposed to vice versa. Hayward’s burst is clearly back, and he really needs more primary touches.
I agree with this, although I’m growing more comfortable with Smart as decision maker. Even so, I still see HW making the extra pass instead of taking the open shot a couple times a game. He’s oddly deferential for such an elite player
 

lovegtm

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I agree with this, although I’m growing more comfortable with Smart as decision maker. Even so, I still see HW making the extra pass instead of taking the open shot a couple times a game. He’s oddly deferential for such an elite player
I like Smart’s decision-making a lot. I like it a lot better attacking closeouts created by Hayward’s superior ability as the lead attacker.
 

lovegtm

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Hayward might be a bit of a hot commodity with the way his explosiveness keeps improving. His early 30 years are looking a lot more appealing these days.
 

BigSoxFan

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Hayward might be a bit of a hot commodity with the way his explosiveness keeps improving. His early 30 years are looking a lot more appealing these days.
Yup. If I could have Hayward or Kemba on a 3 year deal in 2021-2023 at the same big money, I’m taking Hayward.
 

bigq

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This makes this playoff run more difficult for the Celtics but I still think they can get by Philly, Toronto and Milwaukee if JT, JB, KW and MS remain healthy and on top of their games.
 

radsoxfan

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Not surprised, looked pretty bad. Grade 3 means a complete tear (probably both anterior talofibular and calcaneofibular ligaments, they usually go together in that mechanism).

Return is usually about symptom management, how quickly the swelling goes down and the ligaments start to scar. They don't have to be fully healed for him to play, not impossible that he will be back sooner than 4 weeks (though I won't be holding my breath).
 

Jed Zeppelin

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This isn't a death knell, but decreases their margin for error against Toronto (and Milwaukee if not available). Marcus can fill some of the void, and if his shooting comes back around, they'll be fine. Rebounding takes a bit of a hit.
 

JCizzle

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This isn't a death knell, but decreases their margin for error against Toronto (and Milwaukee if not available). Marcus can fill some of the void, and if his shooting comes back around, they'll be fine. Rebounding takes a bit of a hit.
And JBJ will also be a good hitter one day once it all comes together!

(I kid, I kid. Smart was actually decent last year into this one)
 

Light-Tower-Power

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It's Kemba's shooting I'm more concerned about. They're going to need him to carry more of the offensive burden now. I hope Marcus acts as a facilitator and sticks to only picking his spots offensively here and there.
 

radsoxfan

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The biggest problem with losing Hawyard is that we have such awful depth. Such a huge drop off after our top 6 or 7 guys.

Marcus in the starting lineup is OK, but it means more minutes for Semi, Grant, or who knows. Egh
 

Ale Xander

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So timeline is what, game 6 ECF if we're lucky?

I think we can get by Phi and Tor without him. I love him, but he's really brittle.
 

bsj

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So timeline is what, game 6 ECF if we're lucky?

I think we can get by Phi and Tor without him. I love him, but he's really brittle.
Are his ankles particularly weak or he is just particularly unlucky?

I've sprained both of my ankles multiple times, and broke one once, so I really wonder if some people are genetically prone to weak ankles or if its just dumb luck
 

lovegtm

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Are his ankles particularly weak or he is just particularly unlucky?

I've sprained both of my ankles multiple times, and broke one once, so I really wonder if some people are genetically prone to weak ankles or if its just dumb luck
He was fine for like 10 years prior in college+Utah, so who knows.
 

InstaFace

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The biggest problem with losing Hawyard is that we have such awful depth. Such a huge drop off after our top 6 or 7 guys.
I always hate these complaints.

1) Who has "great depth" beyond the #7 spot on their roster?

2) How deep are playoff rotations? Usually 7 deep, with maybe a few minutes given to an 8 or 9 guy based on matchups, but they are never a decisive matter

We have KW, MS, JT, JB and DT as starters, with EK and RW as backup bigs, and BW the 3rd guard. That's 8 (was 9 with GH), and other than Kanter's defense there's really not a glaring hole.

This news promotes some combination of Semi, Grant and Langford (health depending) to a total of about 15 minutes a game between the 3 of them, matchup-dependent, with the rest of Hayward's load going to an increase to the 4 primary non-bigs, and probably JT doing a bit more ball handling. The biggest fall-off is from GH's outside shooting and drive ability. But if that is (was) Hayward's main strength, it's a strength that we have in depth. This isn't like losing Kemba's speed and finishing, or Smart's D, nevermind the things the Jays bring to the table.

I'm bothered, but not distraught.
 

JCizzle

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I'm bothered, but not distraught.
I think I agree with this. I viewed our team's biggest strength as the 1-5 depth. Better players 1-5 than maybe any team in the league, but no truly elite talent among those players. We don't have Giannis or LBJ to offset loss from that top-end depth. Maybe Tatum makes a case for that level of respect in this playoff run. Maybe Jaylen takes yet another step.

Edit: Lex made this case better in the other thread.
 

Euclis20

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Are his ankles particularly weak or he is just particularly unlucky?

I've sprained both of my ankles multiple times, and broke one once, so I really wonder if some people are genetically prone to weak ankles or if its just dumb luck
Some people are definitely more prone to it (Steph Curry, Grant Hill) whether through genetics or play style, but it still seems to be mostly luck. For sure, Hayward has none of that.
 

radsoxfan

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I always hate these complaints.

1) Who has "great depth" beyond the #7 spot on their roster?

2) How deep are playoff rotations? Usually 7 deep, with maybe a few minutes given to an 8 or 9 guy based on matchups, but they are never a decisive matter

We have KW, MS, JT, JB and DT as starters, with EK and RW as backup bigs, and BW the 3rd guard. That's 8 (was 9 with GH), and other than Kanter's defense there's really not a glaring hole.

This news promotes some combination of Semi, Grant and Langford (health depending) to a total of about 15 minutes a game between the 3 of them, matchup-dependent, with the rest of Hayward's load going to an increase to the 4 primary non-bigs, and probably JT doing a bit more ball handling. The biggest fall-off is from GH's outside shooting and drive ability. But if that is (was) Hayward's main strength, it's a strength that we have in depth. This isn't like losing Kemba's speed and finishing, or Smart's D, nevermind the things the Jays bring to the table.

I'm bothered, but not distraught.
I'm admittedly venting without looking too far into the numbers, but aren't minutes for rookies like Grant/Langford or a terrible young vet like Semi worse than most championship contenders at the 8th or 9 spot? These guys are developmental projects or scrubs, I feel like some teams have some competent veterans to fill in on the margins of the rotation, though I could certainly be wrong.

It's not a huge deal, and Brad can tighten the rotation a bit more while dispersing responsibility to others like you mentioned. But any foul trouble or new injuries gets is into serious scrub zone very quickly. It's why some were advocating for some bench help at the trade deadline, seems like we have a lot of 11th-12th men in the 8th-9th man spots.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The C's bench depth is thin in terms of proven capabilities. That is inescapable. I also think its a legacy of the Irving (and likely other bad roster fits) era. My guess is that the front office determined that the risk to chemistry and development wasn't worth going for more veteran help at the deadline.
 

lexrageorge

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Are his ankles particularly weak or he is just particularly unlucky?

I've sprained both of my ankles multiple times, and broke one once, so I really wonder if some people are genetically prone to weak ankles or if its just dumb luck
The break was a fluke injury that can happen to anyone. Fortunately, not very often, but even rare events do happen given enough opportunity.

The sprain on the good ankle was also likely just bad luck.