Game 5: Sixers at Boston: Lobster Rolls > Cheese Steaks

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

Poor Al Horford. He's given this team years of his life and they just can't find it in them to want it badly enough, not even for him, not even knowing these playoffs are his last games.

That says just about everything there is to say about this team, especially its core, who I'm just about convinced at this point are never going to win a title together because there isn't a man among them with the talent and the will combined to drag this team to wins. Their best player claims to worship at the altar of a guy who would have eaten him alive every single time, if they had ever played against one another, who might still be able to if not for being no longer in this mortal realm. Their second best player steps up sometimes then disappears. And when a guy who does have the drive to take over tries to, it's a guy who isn't a consistent enough shooter or scorer, so it all goes for naught.

It's just maddening that nobody wants to be The Guy and that nobody wants to win at all costs. Talent gets you very far, but if you can't go for the throat when it's there, you're never going to me anything more than a piece of the puzzle at best.

They've won two in a row before. Hopefully they can again. If not, what a waste.

 

[Ale Xander]

I don’t know if he gets a favorable whistle but the refs sure as shit give him a lot of leeway to whine and gesture about calls.

I think the normal protocol for refs is the bigger the star you are, the more you get to complain (well..except for Tatum really). And Tucker isn’t a star. I mean, his offensive game makes Grant Williams look like prime Jordan. Yet…he’s still allowed to bitch a TON.

It’s a respect your elders thing I think

 

[lars10]

Do you think he gets a favorable whistle? I see him get rung up when he fouls.

I think he plays by the "they can't call everything" principle

 

[luckiestman]

It’s a respect your elders thing I think

I was going to say something similar. Tucker whines, I agree but I don't see it like a Dray thing. He knows his role and it's on us to play him off the floor.

 

[TrapperAB]

What makes folks think that the Celts can find another gear... going into Philly... down 2-3... against a team with the MVP, a seemingly rejuvenated former MVP, and an exciting young player clearly not afraid of the moment? Especially after shitting the bed in a pivotal Game 5 in the Garden?

Not trying to be snarky, truly. Just wondering where the optimism comes from. Because I'd like to have some of that.

 

[lars10]

Poor Al Horford. He's given this team years of his life and they just can't find it in them to want it badly enough, not even for him, not even knowing these playoffs are his last games.

That says just about everything there is to say about this team, especially its core, who I'm just about convinced at this point are never going to win a title together because there isn't a man among them with the talent and the will combined to drag this team to wins. Their best player claims to worship at the altar of a guy who would have eaten him alive every single time, if they had ever played against one another, who might still be able to if not for being no longer in this mortal realm. Their second best player steps up sometimes then disappears. And when a guy who does have the drive to take over tries to, it's a guy who isn't a consistent enough shooter or scorer, so it all goes for naught.

It's just maddening that nobody wants to be The Guy and that nobody wants to win at all costs. Talent gets you very far, but if you can't go for the throat when it's there, you're never going to me anything more than a piece of the puzzle at best.

They've won two in a row before. Hopefully they can again. If not, what a waste.

As if Horford had nothing to do with them losing tonight.

 

[Ale Xander]

Also sucks we couldn’t get the 1 seed to be playing a Knicks team right now.
Although with the way we’ve played in the playoffs, not sure we’d get by the Heat

 

[Auger34]

It’s a respect your elders thing I think

You’re probably right…but still, PJ Tucker?

 

[lars10]

What makes folks think that the Celts can find another gear... going into Philly... down 2-3... against a team with the MVP, a seemingly rejuvenated former MVP, and an exciting young player clearly not afraid of the moment? Especially after shitting the bed in a pivotal Game 5 in the Garden?

Not trying to be snarky, truly. Just wondering where the optimism comes from. Because I'd like to have some of that.

Because this team's core has done similar things multiple times despite people thinking they have no heart.

edit:
Also.. this Sixers team wants to fold. They're not some juggernaut..the Sixers haven't won anything yet.. they're waiting to get punched so they can back down like they usually do. Celtics need to come out and show them how they can play. Hopefully Joe and team watch some film to figure out what worked at the beginning of the season.

 

[timelysarcasm]

Poor Al Horford. He's given this team years of his life and they just can't find it in them to want it badly enough, not even for him, not even knowing these playoffs are his last games.

That says just about everything there is to say about this team, especially its core, who I'm just about convinced at this point are never going to win a title together because there isn't a man among them with the talent and the will combined to drag this team to wins. Their best player claims to worship at the altar of a guy who would have eaten him alive every single time, if they had ever played against one another, who might still be able to if not for being no longer in this mortal realm. Their second best player steps up sometimes then disappears. And when a guy who does have the drive to take over tries to, it's a guy who isn't a consistent enough shooter or scorer, so it all goes for naught.

It's just maddening that nobody wants to be The Guy and that nobody wants to win at all costs. Talent gets you very far, but if you can't go for the throat when it's there, you're never going to me anything more than a piece of the puzzle at best.

They've won two in a row before. Hopefully they can again. If not, what a waste.

I hear you, and I definitely agreed hard on this last year - but Al had an absolutely brutal game. Brutal. He's a contributing factor to this loss, he couldn't get anything to go down when he was wide open, and you could see the offense deflate as the misses piled up.

He is a huge part of the drive and kick music, the clangs really reverberated tonight.

 

[Auger34]

I hear you, and I definitely agreed hard on this last year - but Al had an absolutely brutal game. Brutal. He's a contributing factor to this loss, he couldn't get anything to go down when he was wide open, and you could see the offense deflate as the misses piled up.

He is a huge part of the drive and kick music, the clangs really reverberated tonight.

I love Al and i will almost always defend him but his defense when he was switched onto a guard was brutal too….

 

[luckiestman]

I love Al and i will almost always defend him but his defense when he was switched onto a guard was brutal too….

He sucked tonight as much as he was brilliant the other day. Shame they wasted his performance.

 

[Ale Xander]

Al was brutal, just brutal, on both sides of the court, but he’d be the last player on this team whose heart I’d question (not saying anyone is)

just win game 6
And then just win game 7 please

 

[Auger34]

Al was brutal, just brutal, on both sides of the court, but he’d be the last player on this team whose heart I’d question (not saying anyone is)

just win game 6
And then just win game 7 please

Bingo. Him and Smart may go out there and vomit on themselves but I don’t question their heart…..and when it comes down to it, when they are in a position to do something that matters, deep down I always trust it will work out.

But, to the original point, win Game 6. Win it for the 37 year old who might be on his last legs

 

[luckiestman]

If we win game 6, can we petition to play game 7 in Philly?

 

[ifmanis5]

View: https://twitter.com/BrianTRobb/status/1656139010362966016

Jayson Tatum lays out his Game 6 prep timeline: "We have a flight tomorrow, we're going to watch film when we get there, get some rest, shootaround Thursday, talk to you guys again, say the same shit again, and get ready for the game on Thursday."

 

[TrapperAB]

View: https://twitter.com/BrianTRobb/status/1656139010362966016

Jayson Tatum lays out his Game 6 prep timeline: "We have a flight tomorrow, we're going to watch film when we get there, get some rest, shootaround Thursday, talk to you guys again, say the same shit again, and get ready for the game on Thursday."

Is it just me, or does his attitude suck? I mean, I understand, bad loss, want to put it behind you. But there's some fire missing.

 

[8slim]

Is it just me, or does his attitude suck? I mean, I understand, bad loss, want to put it behind you. But there's some fire missing.

To be fair, it’s the NBA. Almost everyone’s attitude sucks.

 

[lars10]

Is it just me, or does his attitude suck? I mean, I understand, bad loss, want to put it behind you. But there's some fire missing.

He could say literally anything and it would get picked apart, here, to find a way that he sucks.

 

[timelysarcasm]

What makes folks think that the Celts can find another gear... going into Philly... down 2-3... against a team with the MVP, a seemingly rejuvenated former MVP, and an exciting young player clearly not afraid of the moment? Especially after shitting the bed in a pivotal Game 5 in the Garden?

Not trying to be snarky, truly. Just wondering where the optimism comes from. Because I'd like to have some of that.

When the Celtics won two straight in this series, the narrative was completely different. It's recency bias coupled with a make/miss league.

Maxey was a team worst -25 in game 2. He played 40 minutes and was 4-16 in game 3. Can't think of anyone who was saying he was an exciting young player not afraid of the moment at that point. Even Maxey's G4 wasn't what I'd call exciting, it was fine. He's a very quick slasher who is a defensive liability - he gets open looks when the 7 foot MVP collapses defenses.

Celtics picked a terrible time to have their worst game, but games 2 and 3 were not particularly close. Two was an absolute blowout. Are those the aberrations, or is G5?

There's reason for optimism, but also the Celtics are out of time to fuck around.

 

[bosockboy]

What makes folks think that the Celts can find another gear... going into Philly... down 2-3... against a team with the MVP, a seemingly rejuvenated former MVP, and an exciting young player clearly not afraid of the moment? Especially after shitting the bed in a pivotal Game 5 in the Garden?

Not trying to be snarky, truly. Just wondering where the optimism comes from. Because I'd like to have some of that.

To be fair, they were in the exact same situation last year and won Game 6 in Milwaukee.

 

[tims4wins]

The bad news: They will probably get destroyed in Philly and the year is over. The good news: If they can somehow pull off the next two games, they will have demonstrated enough guts to go all the way.

I mean they faced the exact same scenario last year, prevailed, and learned nothing.

 

[tims4wins]

Bingo. This core thinks they don’t have to really work for it. That they’re great enough to make it work when they want. It’s such an immature team.

What a frustrating game by a truly frustrating team. The "flipping a switch" mentality has put them on the brink, and with all the talent they have they should be embarrassed.

I do think the missed shots in the beginning gets them off kilter - but they need to lock in defensively for 60 minutes. No excuse to let fucking Maxey and 50 year old James Harden cook you.

We'll see how much pride they have now.

How did this attitude develop? It’s perplexing

 

[NJ_Sox_Fan]

I have game 6 tickets but am much less excited about that after this crap game

 

[pk1627]

It surely isn’t over.
To this point, this may be the worst April/May playoffs in Boston. Ever.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I think the “no heart,” “no one wants to be the man” stuff is off the mark.

Tatum went at that game hard after the first quarter, but Al-Brogdon-White, et al missed a fuckton of wide open threes and they couldn’t help him at all.

Why did he start slow? That’s the way they’ve played all year. They start trying to get Jaylen on track, giving Tatum a rest after 7 mins in the first quarter and then bringing him back early second, when Jaylen sits.

Should Joe maybe mix it up? Yeah, maybe, but players have routines.

It’s not like Al was throwing up prayers or like he hasn’t shown the ability. He and Brogdon were top 5 in the league all year and last night he was spent, or they just didn’t fall, or whatever. He had one half way down that didn’t fall in game 4 that would have iced it.

I agree that Joe doesn’t seem to have much in his bag of tricks, and I agree that late-game execution is bad, but I don’t agree with the soft/heart stuff.

Anyone watch the end of the last Dubs game? Does Steph not have heart?

 

[Helmet Head]

I felt equally as shitty heading into game 6 against the Bucks last year. Hopefully they prove me wrong again.

 

[Ale Xander]

It surely isn’t over.
To this point, this may be the worst April/May playoffs in Boston. Ever.

I’m looking forward to BC lacrosse Sunday afternoon but they moved to Newton so there is hope

 

[CapeCodYaz]

Because this team's core has done similar things multiple times despite people thinking they have no heart.

edit:
Also.. this Sixers team wants to fold. They're not some juggernaut..the Sixers haven't won anything yet.. they're waiting to get punched so they can back down like they usually do. Celtics need to come out and show them how they can play. Hopefully Joe and team watch some film to figure out what worked at the beginning of the season.

they can do it--Tatum needs to score early and often and please everyone stop the crazy lazy 3's --drive and post and make Embid and others run--the Sixers are slow and none of them (except Maxy) can keep up. Everything went in for the Sixers last night and that won't happen twice and the Celts won't miss every shot either---I mean how often does Tatum miss so many layups?

 

[CapeCodYaz]

I love Al and i will almost always defend him but his defense when he was switched onto a guard was brutal too….

he should never be on a guard--do you ever see Embid on a gaurd?

 

[Auger34]

I think the “no heart,” “no one wants to be the man” stuff is off the mark.

Tatum went at that game hard after the first quarter, but Al-Brogdon-White, et al missed a fuckton of wide open threes and they couldn’t help him at all.

Why did he start slow? That’s the way they’ve played all year. They start trying to get Jaylen on track, giving Tatum a rest after 7 mins in the first quarter and then bringing him back early second, when Jaylen sits.

Should Joe maybe mix it up? Yeah, maybe, but players have routines.

It’s not like Al was throwing up prayers or like he hasn’t shown the ability. He and Brogdon were top 5 in the league all year and last night he was spent, or they just didn’t fall, or whatever. He had one half way down that didn’t fall in game 4 that would have iced it.

I agree that Joe doesn’t seem to have much in his bag of tricks, and I agree that late-game execution is bad, but I don’t agree with the soft/heart stuff.

Anyone watch the end of the last Dubs game? Does Steph not have heart?

I agree with completely with your first two sentences/paragraphs.

I think your 3rd paragraph is really off the mark. I have no idea why Tatum starts slow…no one does, or else they would try their damndest to fix it. But the fact remains, he’s a notorious slow starter. His jumper is legitimately terrible at the start of games. I posted a tweet at the beginning with his 1st quarter numbers for this series. They’re really fucking bad and when you watch the game, it looks just as bad. The jumpers aren’t rimming out..they’re just bricks.
That’s not something where CJM is consciously trying to get Jaylen going, that’s something where someone else on the team (literally anyone else) needs to make a shot so we don’t get run off of the floor.

To Tatum’s credit, it seems like he recognizes that he starts off cold and is trying to get to the bucket or dish it out to open teammates. The issues are the teammates aren’t making the open 3’s or Tatum is going too far in the paint and not going up strong enough.

Mark Jones brought it up in Gams 4 that Tatum lifts 30 minutes before the game, if I am Tatum, I change that immediately.

 

[ObstructedView]

They were bound to have a total stinker. Unfortunately they failed to close the deal in games 1 and 4, leaving them with no room for error.

 

[lars10]

I think the “no heart,” “no one wants to be the man” stuff is off the mark.

Tatum went at that game hard after the first quarter, but Al-Brogdon-White, et al missed a fuckton of wide open threes and they couldn’t help him at all.

Why did he start slow? That’s the way they’ve played all year. They start trying to get Jaylen on track, giving Tatum a rest after 7 mins in the first quarter and then bringing him back early second, when Jaylen sits.

Should Joe maybe mix it up? Yeah, maybe, but players have routines.

It’s not like Al was throwing up prayers or like he hasn’t shown the ability. He and Brogdon were top 5 in the league all year and last night he was spent, or they just didn’t fall, or whatever. He had one half way down that didn’t fall in game 4 that would have iced it.

I agree that Joe doesn’t seem to have much in his bag of tricks, and I agree that late-game execution is bad, but I don’t agree with the soft/heart stuff.

Anyone watch the end of the last Dubs game? Does Steph not have heart?

Yeah.. calling 20 year old kids ‘soft’ ‘gutless’ ‘no heart’ ‘losers’ etc has become common place here on SOSH and it bothers me too. The ball goes in and they’re great.. the ball doesn’t and they’re pathetic and embarrassing .. some of the people around here should look in the mirror.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

There is a legit question about who here actually owns a mirror, let alone uses one.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I agree with completely with your first two sentences/paragraphs.

I think your 3rd paragraph is really off the mark. I have no idea why Tatum starts slow…no one does, or else they would try their damndest to fix it. But the fact remains, he’s a notorious slow starter. His jumper is legitimately terrible at the start of games. I posted a tweet at the beginning with his 1st quarter numbers for this series. They’re really fucking bad and when you watch the game, it looks just as bad. The jumpers aren’t rimming out..they’re just bricks.
That’s not something where CJM is consciously trying to get Jaylen going, that’s something where someone else on the team (literally anyone else) needs to make a shot so we don’t get run off of the floor.

To Tatum’s credit, it seems like he recognizes that he starts off cold and is trying to get to the bucket or dish it out to open teammates. The issues are the teammates aren’t making the open 3’s or Tatum is going too far in the paint and not going up strong enough.

Mark Jones brought it up in Gams 4 that Tatum lifts 30 minutes before the game, if I am Tatum, I change that immediately.

I looked up Tatum's shooting by quarter, and it was actually a little surprising to me. Doesn't really fit either of our narratives.

• His 486 shots in the first quarter this year are the most of any quarter, so he comes out shooting and his end of quarter rest doesn't affect his usage.
• His .455 shooting % and .526 eFG% are the second highest, behind only the third quarter (where he's at his best, .507/.606)
• But, really, he's bad at shooting threes the whole first half, .314 and .302 in the first and second
• Then he comes out of the half hot as hell, shooting threes at a .442 clip on 208 shots. Basically, he's among the best shooters in the league in the third quarter for some reason
• Then, in the fourth, he comes back down to earth, .448/.345/.519 in the fourth, where he's taken 100 fewer shots than any other quarter (I'm assuming this is affected by garbage time, etc.)
• He's .355/.133/.387 in the 11 OT periods this year - which is pretty bad!

In all, it's hard to argue the first quarter is any different/worse than the second or fourth. Really, it's curious as to how the third is so much of an outlier.

 

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

Yeah.. calling 20 year old kids ‘soft’ ‘gutless’ ‘no heart’ ‘losers’ etc has become common place here on SOSH and it bothers me too. The ball goes in and they’re great.. the ball doesn’t and they’re pathetic and embarrassing .. some of the people around here should look in the mirror.

I can only speak for myself, but someone isn't soft, gutless, lacking in heart, etc. if he has a bad game or some tough shooting luck. To me, someone is soft, gutless, etc., if he is passive in big spots or consistently comes up small when it's his turn to step up. Tatum is in his mid-20s and has a kid. He, himself, is not a kid. He's a man, a full-grown one at that. So is most of the team (dependent status varying person to person), so I balk at the notion that they are "kids." They may be kids by comparison for us, as most of us are much older, but they are adults in every sense of the word.

Turning back to Tatum, the dude passed the ball when he was literally at the hoop in Game 4's final play. Passed it. Didn't go for the contact and a foul, didn't try to jam it home or lay it in, just passed it to the almost the furthest point he could, and not even a great pass, and it cost them the game.

Does anyone in this forum think his idol would have ever passed the ball in the final play when already at the hoop? Would Jordan have? Bird? Magic?

Tatum can be The Guy, but he has to basically start refusing to lose. Kobe Bryant cried after losing to the Celtics in the 2007-08 Finals. He cried despite having four rings. When they beat the Celtics two seasons later, he said it was his favorite ring ever, because of what it represented and the history behind that.

I want a player who takes it that seriously every time out leading this team. That should be Tatum, but it isn't. And that's why I question his will to win a title.

 

[jezza1918]

I can only speak for myself, but someone isn't soft, gutless, lacking in heart, etc. if he has a bad game or some tough shooting luck. To me, someone is soft, gutless, etc., if he is passive in big spots or consistently comes up small when it's his turn to step up. Tatum is in his mid-20s and has a kid. He, himself, is not a kid. He's a man, a full-grown one at that. So is most of the team (dependent status varying person to person), so I balk at the notion that they are "kids." They may be kids by comparison for us, as most of us are much older, but they are adults in every sense of the word.

Turning back to Tatum, the dude passed the ball when he was literally at the hoop in Game 4's final play. Passed it. Didn't go for the contact and a foul, didn't try to jam it home or lay it in, just passed it to the almost the furthest point he could, and not even a great pass, and it cost them the game.

Does anyone in this forum think his idol would have ever passed the ball in the final play when already at the hoop? Would Jordan have? Bird? Magic?

Tatum can be The Guy, but he has to basically start refusing to lose. Kobe Bryant cried after losing to the Celtics in 2007. He cried despite having four rings. When they beat the Celtics two seasons later, he said it was his favorite ring ever, because of what it represented and the history behind that.

I want a player who takes it that seriously every time out leading this team. That should be Tatum, but it isn't. And that's why I question his will to win a title.

I don't want to speak for everyone who argues the age thing, but IMO I disagree with the bolded. For me it's that simple. As Furious Styles once said, "Any fool with a dick can make a baby, but only a real man can raise his children." Maybe that phenomenal quote from Boyz n' the Hood might not be totally applicable, but just because Tatum has a kid does not make him a full grown man. He just turned 25...having lived through my 20s and coached many male student-athletes who are now in their late 20's/early 30's none of them reached peak maturity at 25. I don't care that none of us are the superstar athlete that he is, because I'm not talking about physical talent. I wouldn't go so far as to say Tatum is a kid, but I very much doubt he's a full grown man either. I brought it up in some thread last night, but to compare him to someone a little closer to his era when LBJ was 25 his was so emotionally immature he was (quite credibly) accused of quitting on his team in his final series with the cavs vs the celtics.
All that said, I do completely agree with your final sentence...although I don't see too much of that mentality across the NBA these days, at least on a consistent basis.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

We need to get back to using "good faces" as a way to judge character and talent. It was all so much simpler then.

 

[Leon Trotsky]

We need to get back to using "good faces" as a way to judge character and talent. It was all so much simpler then.

Tatum just doesn't have calm enough eyes.

 

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

I don't want to speak for everyone who argues the age thing, but IMO I disagree with the bolded. For me it's that simple. (Snip)

By that logic, everybody under the age of 30 is a kid, maybe even older, as some studies have shown that our brains don't finish fully developing until we're in nearing our fourth decade on the planet, though YMMV.

I get what you're saying, and neither you nor Furious are wrong, but... if we don't think Tatun is a man at 25, why is that? Genuinely curious what the criteria are and I'm not taking the piss when I ask that. What does he have to do to be an adult in everybody's eyes if he isn't now?

 

[jezza1918]

By that logic, everybody under the age of 30 is a kid, maybe even older, as some studies have shown that our brains don't finish fully developing until we're in nearing our fourth decade on the planet, though YMMV.

I get what you're saying, and neither you nor Furious are wrong, but... if we don't think Tatun is a man at 25, why is that? Genuinely curious what the criteria are and I'm not taking the piss when I ask that. What does he have to do to be an adult in everybody's eyes if he isn't now?

First off your post didnt come across as taking the piss with that question at all. I guess my answer is, to quote another movie, "My answer is: I don't have the first damn clue*." We don't know these guys at all, I'm only going off my personal experience with people in their mid 20s. And comparing their personas as they age, and using my personal experience with who I was at 25, 30, now early 40s. And no one I know, no matter their personal situation, is fully mature at 25.
I get why things these things are different - but I tend to use personal stuff to draw lessons from. I was a D1 tennis player - which comes along with a f*ck ton of training. Post college I didn't play much, but then in my late 20s decided to compete in a few summer tournaments up in Vermont - got back into it for a couple months so get my rhythm back and into shape...I can say with zero doubt that my 29 year old self would destroy my 20 year old self. I was smarter, I got more out of my training, was more sure of myself as a human (both on and off the court), the list goes on. I realize Im wading into more philosophical type waters, but I just dont think, in my experience, it's rational to think these guys aren't still growing and getting better - as humans, which makes them better at their sport. And lastly, I would never go so far as to say this is true for everyone.

*Col. Nathan R. Jessep, Commanding Officer, Marine Ground Forces, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.