Feats of Mookie - 2024 Angst & Awe

Pitt the Elder

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I love Mookie, still my favorite baseball player in MLB. Rather than peppering the former Sox thread with highlights of his 2024 season, I figured I'd start a thread to give this forum a place to discuss his performance and all the emotions it brings to the surface.

He's, uh, off to a good start, with an absurd.500/.605/1.167 line with 5 home runs through 8 games to start the season.
 

uncannymanny

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I don’t want to say it’s “painful” but I find it hard to watch him now. And he’s still my favorite player, too.
 

radsoxfan

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I don’t want to say it’s “painful” but I find it hard to watch him now. And he’s still my favorite player, too.
Living in LA, I see him play a lot on TV.

I have learned to accept it and still root for him. My ire is directed elsewhere
 

riboflav

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This should never have happened to Boston, unless Betts was determined to leave town. Given the money, the fandom, the culture, there was no reason not to keep him. These aren't the Carlton Fisk days. There is too much passion and money to be made and keeping him, even overspending by gobs, was the no-brainer of all no-brainer decisions. I am forever grateful for Henry and bringing us four WS but this is definitely a stain on his legacy here and the only way it's overcome is with another title as owner. If Betts would have signed the same deal here that he received in LA, then Henry grossly miscalculated fan fallout, or maybe he doesn't care much.
 

TrotNixonRing

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Also a favorite. Something about Sox RF. Dewey also a past favorite.

I like watching his career slash line. Currently at .296/.375/.530

Also a fun number to watch, his career bWAR per 162 games. Currently at an absurd 8.3. Willie Mays’ was 8.4 (includes decline phase).

He’s starting games at 2B and SS this year.

Just sayin.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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I just think he really didn’t want to be here. A better way of putting it might be he just preferred a life in LA. Starting a media company, going to the Golden Globes, hanging out with Will Ferrell at Kings games. There was a celebrity/entrepreneur side to him that we probably underestimated was driving a lot of his decisions.
 

riboflav

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I just think he really didn’t want to be here. A better way of putting it might be he just preferred a life in LA. Starting a media company, going to the Golden Globes, hanging out with Will Ferrell at Kings games. There was a celebrity/entrepreneur side to him that we probably underestimated was driving a lot of his decisions.
It's certainly possible that there's nothing the Sox or Henry could have done.
 

czar

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Even if Betts was absolute hellbent on not staying in Boston regardless of what $$$ the Sox offered him, I'm sure the FO would love a do-over on the trade between the mediocre player return and fan backlash. Yeah, yeah, but 2020 was a lame duck / COVID year so who cares if he's here for one more full season, but if you cede that, then you also cede it's more likely Betts accepts an offer similar to the LAD rather than hitting the market.

What irks me (maybe not irks, but saddens me a bit) is that there is this notion that (fair or unfair) the Sox opened the bag for Devers as a "course correction" for not doing so on Betts. By the Devers AAV per WAR yardstick, the Sox could have offered Mookie $50m per and come out ahead.

None of this helps I have a coworker from southern California who has fallen in love with Betts so I get to hear "wow, can you believe Mookie did XXXX" at least a few times a week...

EDIT: Realizing I'm just relitigating Mookie stuff, so I'll also say, as a Mookie owner in a dynasty league --- yeah, he's on a... uh... heater right now. Fun to drop 80 pts (and going) on the opponent in a H2H league.
 

inJacobyWeTrust

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Jungleland

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Max Power

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View: https://twitter.com/danclarksports/status/1775849505126330669?s=46&t=H-3ynAkq9mTptCOOHeQgGg


MLB Leaders
OPS: M.Betts, 1.686
AVG: M.Betts, .485
OPB: M.Betts, .595
SLG: M.Betts, 1.091
HR: M.Betts, 5
RBI: M.Betts, 11
Runs: M.Betts, 14
Hits: M.Betts, 16
XBH: M.Betts, 9
TB: M.Betts, 36
TOB: M.Betts, 25
Walks: M.Betts, 9
WAR: M.Betts, 1.5
oWAR: M.Betts, 1.2
dWAR: M.Betts, 0.3
OPS+: M.Betts, 337

Incredible start, happy for Mookie and sad for the Sox.
If you projected those numbers out to a full season, two of them would not be records. Barry Bonds really did break the game in 2004.
 

jose melendez

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If he really didn't want to be here, why didn't Henry and Friends savage him on the way out--and really put that story out there? They had no problem savaging Tito.

Maybe they were afraid of backlash because Mookie is not only beloved but black? It's the only reason I can come up with as to why they wouldn't be dicks when they've done it before.
 

yalesoxfan

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You and me both, man. At least with TB it was just about the end. Much harder to stomach with perhaps a literal decade of prime left at the time of the deal (and to go for a low value return centerpieced by an asshole). Irreversible damage to my enjoyment of the game.
Plus, with TB, his legacy was the Patriots. When he goes to the HoF, it will be with the Pats. If Mookie keeps it up, he will go in with the Dodgers. It's like death by 1,000 cuts.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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If he really didn't want to be here, why didn't Henry and Friends savage him on the way out--and really put that story out there? They had no problem savaging Tito.

Maybe they were afraid of backlash because Mookie is not only beloved but black? It's the only reason I can come up with as to why they wouldn't be dicks when they've done it before.
I don't think these two exits are similar. Not saying it wasn't shitty at all how they treated Tito, but they needed a scapegoat for what was supposed to be a great team completely falling apart and with Theo leaving, it basically being the end of the First Golden Age, and the talk-radio types already had issues Tito. And fans feelings for managers are pretty fickle.
With Mookie, it was a beloved (and yeah, black) player who I'm sure they really actually WANTED to stick around.
Again, I think it's beyond obvious that Mookie wanted to be in either LA or NY for the reasons SemperFidelis mentions upthread. Boston doesn't have the infrastructure for what he wanted OUTSIDE of baseball. I'm just glad that he ended up in the NL rather than in fucking pinstripes and if they allowed him to go to Free Agency, the liklihood of that happening was much higher.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Again, I think it's beyond obvious that Mookie wanted to be in either LA or NY for the reasons SemperFidelis mentions upthread. Boston doesn't have the infrastructure for what he wanted OUTSIDE of baseball. I'm just glad that he ended up in the NL rather than in fucking pinstripes and if they allowed him to go to Free Agency, the liklihood of that happening was much higher.
Mookie literally said this today in a Boston Globe story:

“There are still so many people that still don’t believe I wanted to stay in Boston,” [Betts] said. “I just don’t understand that. I have no reason to lie about it now.

“It’s a negotiation. Let’s have time and talk about it. I said something over here; you said something over there. There’s room.

“The perception is I didn’t want to stay. No — it’s a business. This game is fun, but it’s also a business.”

I really have no idea why anyone believes this ownership group when it really works in their favor to insinuate that Betts never wanted to stay in Boston. I mean, it's over and done with and not really worth talking about why he left, only that he left because Henry and company didn't think he was worth paying, so they got nickles on the dollar for him. And the guy who traded him got fired. The Sox didn't want Mookie Betts, it's not the other way around. It sucks, believe me I get it, but it's the truth.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Mookie literally said this today in a Boston Globe story:

“There are still so many people that still don’t believe I wanted to stay in Boston,” [Betts] said. “I just don’t understand that. I have no reason to lie about it now.

“It’s a negotiation. Let’s have time and talk about it. I said something over here; you said something over there. There’s room.

“The perception is I didn’t want to stay. No — it’s a business. This game is fun, but it’s also a business.”

I really have no idea why anyone believes this ownership group when it really works in their favor to insinuate that Betts never wanted to stay in Boston. I mean, it's over and done with and not really worth talking about why he left, only that he left because Henry and company didn't think he was worth paying, so they got nickles on the dollar for him. And the guy who traded him got fired. The Sox didn't want Mookie Betts, it's not the other way around. It sucks, believe me I get it, but it's the truth.
Why the hell would Mookie Betts say to the media at any point.... before, after or during his Boston tenure that he didn't want to stay in Boston???? A good professional of any sport or profession is smart to say how much they enjoyed the place and wished things worked out, yada yada yada, etc.... Actions speak WAY louder than words here and it was beyond clear that he wanted to play in a major media market, rub shoulders with movie stars, etc.... sorry, he can say everything right because he very likely enjoyed his time in Boston and wants to stay in good thoughts there.
I mean... I've told every girlfriend I've ever broken up with that it wasn't them... it was me!!!!!
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Why the hell would Mookie Betts say to the media at any point.... before, after or during his Boston tenure that he didn't want to stay in Boston???? A good professional of any sport or profession is smart to say how much they enjoyed the place and wished things worked out, yada yada yada, etc.... Actions speak WAY louder than words here and it was beyond clear that he wanted to play in a major media market, rub shoulders with movie stars, etc.... sorry, he can say everything right because he very likely enjoyed his time in Boston and wants to stay in good thoughts there.
I mean... I've told every girlfriend I've ever broken up with that it wasn't them... it was me!!!!!
What actions are you talking about, BTW? He was traded. By the Red Sox. To the Dodgers. He didn't leave as a free agent. And also, why would Betts lie in this instance or any instance where a reporter asked him about Boston? What is in it for him? He's 3000 miles away from the city and comes here once every two years.

Now reverse that question and ask what's in it for John Henry and the front office would make up a story about sending out the best player that the team has produced in two generations for a platoon catcher, an underachieving right fielder with a 50 cent head and a prospect that was so bad he's basically out of baseball now. The Sox made their choice, they value money over superstars. You obviously agree with that, and that's cool. I don't understand it, but I suppose that's your right as a fan.

And you're last line, just because you're a liar doesn't mean that Mookie Betts is. I mean, he probably does but comparing you to him in this situation doesn't mean much.
 

RIFan

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I see no benefit to him lying at this point. He’d better off just saying he’s moved on and doesn’t want to talk about the past if his willingness to sign in Boston was a “lie”. All he did leading up to the trade was say he wanted to get paid fairly and it would be a business decision. He implied or outright said there wouldn’t be a hometown discount.

I’ve never seen anything from Mookie that indicates he is anything less than genuine. I tend to be as cynical as anyone but I completely take him at his word that we was more than welcome to staying if he was paid his worth.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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What actions are you talking about, BTW? He was traded. By the Red Sox. To the Dodgers. He didn't leave as a free agent. And also, why would Betts lie in this instance or any instance where a reporter asked him about Boston? What is in it for him? He's 3000 miles away from the city and comes here once every two years.

Now reverse that question and ask what's in it for John Henry and the front office would make up a story about sending out the best player that the team has produced in two generations for a platoon catcher, an underachieving right fielder with a 50 cent head and a prospect that was so bad he's basically out of baseball now. The Sox made their choice, they value money over superstars. You obviously agree with that, and that's cool. I don't understand it, but I suppose that's your right as a fan.

And you're last line, just because you're a liar doesn't mean that Mookie Betts is. I mean, he probably does but comparing you to him in this situation doesn't mean much.
How do you extrapolate out of that that I agree that the Sox value money over superstars????? What???

Edit- adding here, above…. I mean, yeah sure the Sox DID value it over superstars. They likely balanced a lot of stuff and decided the best path forward was to get what they could, and brought in someone who tried to do that, as it was clear they weren’t going to be outbid in his free agency terms by NY or La.

Ask yourself- and apparently you’re in theater do I can imagine you can put yourself into a character- that you REALLY want to be someplace else for work. It offers everything you want and desire. The place you are is fine… you’re well liked and already a hero to many. You’re likely going there when your current contract is up one way or another.
How do you behave? I would say it’s a shade of lying but It’s not malicious. Leave on as good of terms as you can and say the right things even if they’re not completely true.
I can’t really believe you can’t see this. You never bend the truth yourself either, huh?
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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How do you extrapolate out of that that I agree that the Sox value money over superstars????? What???

Edit- adding here, above…. I mean, yeah sure the Sox DID value it over superstars. They likely balanced a lot of stuff and decided the best path forward was to get what they could, and brought in someone who tried to do that, as it was clear they weren’t going to be outbid in his free agency terms by NY or La.

Ask yourself- and apparently you’re in theater do I can imagine you can put yourself into a character- that you REALLY want to be someplace else for work. It offers everything you want and desire. The place you are is fine… you’re well liked and already a hero to many. You’re likely going there when your current contract is up one way or another.
How do you behave? I would say it’s a shade of lying but It’s not malicious. Leave on as good of terms as you can and say the right things even if they’re not completely true.
I can’t really believe you can’t see this. You never bend the truth yourself either, huh?
Okay. You obviously believe the story that the front office has been insinuating (I don't think that they have come right out and said Mookie was being greedy, but that's been the supposed narrative coming out of Fenway, because if it's a straight up "baseball trade" like they insisted back then, then every single member of the Front Office should have been fired immediately because they don't understand baseball. At all.). So if it's not a baseball trade, which I think we can both agree on, then the Red Sox traded Mookie Betts because they didn't feel like paying him his market worth. There's a lot of shades of grey in the baseball world, but in this regard you either think Mookie is worth the money or you don't. So far, he has proven that he is worth the money. Therefore it's safe to assume that FSG prefers to have money in pocket than a superstar in right field. You seem to agree with this perception, which right or wrong, is your choice.

You're scenario that I REALLY want to be someplace else for work is a fallacy and has literally zero to do with this topic. Betts has maintained for four years that he wanted to be here. He was looking for a permanent home in the Boston area before he got traded. His family lives in Tennessee which is a much shorter plane ride from Logan than it is from LAX. Also, why would Mookie likey come to Boston once "your current contract is up one way or another", I don't understand what this means.

If you want me to play along with your farce, then I wouldn't say anything. In fact I'd say exactly what RIFan said which is:

He’d better off just saying he’s moved on and doesn’t want to talk about the past if his willingness to sign in Boston was a “lie”. All he did leading up to the trade was say he wanted to get paid fairly and it would be a business decision. He implied or outright said there wouldn’t be a hometown discount.

I’ve never seen anything from Mookie that indicates he is anything less than genuine. I tend to be as cynical as anyone but I completely take him at his word that we was more than welcome to staying if he was paid his worth.
I can't really believe that you're happily eating the mounds of bullshit that FSG is shoveling down your throat.

And whether I bend the truth or not is not germane to this topic, but to answer your question, no I don't normally bend the truth. I don't like lying, I find that it creaets far more problems than it solves. I've always found that it's better to deflect or tell the truth, however hard it may be, than to be a coward and lie.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Okay. You obviously believe the story that the front office has been insinuating (I don't think that they have come right out and said Mookie was being greedy, but that's been the supposed narrative coming out of Fenway, because if it's a straight up "baseball trade" like they insisted back then, then every single member of the Front Office should have been fired immediately because they don't understand baseball. At all.). So if it's not a baseball trade, which I think we can both agree on, then the Red Sox traded Mookie Betts because they didn't feel like paying him his market worth. There's a lot of shades of grey in the baseball world, but in this regard you either think Mookie is worth the money or you don't. So far, he has proven that he is worth the money. Therefore it's safe to assume that FSG prefers to have money in pocket than a superstar in right field. You seem to agree with this perception, which right or wrong, is your choice.

You're scenario that I REALLY want to be someplace else for work is a fallacy and has literally zero to do with this topic. Betts has maintained for four years that he wanted to be here. He was looking for a permanent home in the Boston area before he got traded. His family lives in Tennessee which is a much shorter plane ride from Logan than it is from LAX. Also, why would Mookie likey come to Boston once "your current contract is up one way or another", I don't understand what this means.

If you want me to play along with your farce, then I wouldn't say anything. In fact I'd say exactly what RIFan said which is:



I can't really believe that you're happily eating the mounds of bullshit that FSG is shoveling down your throat.

And whether I bend the truth or not is not germane to this topic, but to answer your question, no I don't normally bend the truth. I don't like lying, I find that it creaets far more problems than it solves. I've always found that it's better to deflect or tell the truth, however hard it may be, than to be a coward and lie.
You’re a theater person.
You don’t lie.
Okay.

you clearly know how to manipulate what I’m saying to make me fit into a narrative you’ve formed. That’s a form of lying, no?

I’m done on this topic forever.
 

Max Power

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Mookie literally said this today in a Boston Globe story:

“There are still so many people that still don’t believe I wanted to stay in Boston,” [Betts] said. “I just don’t understand that. I have no reason to lie about it now.

“It’s a negotiation. Let’s have time and talk about it. I said something over here; you said something over there. There’s room.

“The perception is I didn’t want to stay. No — it’s a business. This game is fun, but it’s also a business.”
That's still talking out of both sides of his mouth. "I wanted to stay." "It's a negotiation." "It's a business." He didn't not want to stay, but staying was contingent on the Red Sox paying him the most money. That's fine. They projected the 2020-2031 years of his career differently than the Dodgers. So far it seems like they were wrong.
 

SLC Sox

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We'll probably never know for sure but the truth is usually in tones of gray. Mookie probably was open to staying and leaving and the team only wanted him to stay at a certain value and they just weren't going to connect. Seems ludicrous that they undervalued him like they did and that is the painful part.
 
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Fishercat

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Do we need another topic, not even in the Red Sox forum, where people re-litigate the Mookie Betts trade? I'm just gonna block it for my own sanity but hasn't this been beaten to death?
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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You’re a theater person.
You don’t lie.
Okay.

you clearly know how to manipulate what I’m saying to make me fit into a narrative you’ve formed. That’s a form of lying, no?

I’m done on this topic forever.
What?
That's correct.
I know it is.
No.
I sincerely fucking doubt it.

That's still talking out of both sides of his mouth. "I wanted to stay." "It's a negotiation." "It's a business." He didn't not want to stay, but staying was contingent on the Red Sox paying him the most money. That's fine. They projected the 2020-2031 years of his career differently than the Dodgers. So far it seems like they were wrong.
I don't believe so. Mookie understood what he's worth. Mookie understood how much money FSG makes. Mookie wanted to get paid what he's worth. I'm not seeing what is wrong with this scenario. Wanting to stay in Boston doesn't mean that he's going to play for $1 a year. I enjoy my job an awful lot, but if they cut my pay or I feel like I'm not getting compensated for the work I put in, I'm not going to stay there; no matter how much I like my job. At the end of the day, baseball is a job and if you don't feel you're getting what you're worth, you can leave once your contract is through. Wanting to get paid your worth doesn't make you disloyal or a bad person--I know you're not saying that, but I feel that it needs to be said.

However, Mookie didn't do that. He was traded to the Dodgers, so it was completely out of his hands. The Red Sox pulled the lever to eject Mookie.
 

tims4wins

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They projected the 2020-2031 years of his career differently than the Dodgers. So far it seems like they were wrong.
I think this is all that needs to be written about the subject. They miscalculated.

Unless - and I acknowledge this is at least a possibility - they projected him correctly, but just didn't want to pay him.

I don't see that as likely though. The reason being, they wouldn't let his contract change the overall spending on the roster. Paying him $35M a year or whatever, they'd just cut down in other places to meet their budget. And the $35M they'd pay him would have a better return than $35M spent elsewhere (edit: both in wins, and in other areas like merch, team popularity / TV ratings, etc.). So, I can't imagine it was dollars that drove the decision - I think it was they didn't think he'd be worth it. And they have been wrong - spectacularly - to date. There is a chance they end up being correct. But that decreases by the day.

Edit: and I say this as someone who supported the trade and didn't think he would continue putting up these monster numbers. He is an absolute star and it's really too bad that he couldn't be here along with Tatum and Pasta as future hall of famers in their primes.
 

RIFan

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I can't really believe that you're happily eating the mounds of bullshit that FSG is shoveling down your throat.
How are you possibly getting that from my post? I say I take Mookie at his word and your take away is that. Seems you are spoiling for a fight and looking for reasons to fight everyone on the board.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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How are you possibly getting that from my post? I say I take Mookie at his word and your take away is that. Seems you are spoiling for a fight and looking for reasons to fight everyone on the board.
I wasn't talking to you. I'm sorry if my post was confusing. I quoted and bolded your statement because it was written better than what I wrote. That line was for SandyLeonTrotsky.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Back on Feats Of Mookie, this is all of his swings to date as of the Fangraphs piece (thanks for posting). If there is something he doesn't do at an elite level, I need to know what that is. Except lie to fans to make FSG look bad. Because there are a lot of incentives for him to do that vs ownership spinning their economic decisions.

80555
 

DeadlySplitter

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Do we need another topic, not even in the Red Sox forum, where people re-litigate the Mookie Betts trade? I'm just gonna block it for my own sanity but hasn't this been beaten to death?
Speier just unearthed the topic in a full Globe article yet again today... this will keep being a story for the rest of this generation.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Why the hell would Mookie Betts say to the media at any point.... before, after or during his Boston tenure that he didn't want to stay in Boston???? A good professional of any sport or profession is smart to say how much they enjoyed the place and wished things worked out, yada yada yada, etc.... Actions speak WAY louder than words here and it was beyond clear that he wanted to play in a major media market, rub shoulders with movie stars, etc.... sorry, he can say everything right because he very likely enjoyed his time in Boston and wants to stay in good thoughts there.
I mean... I've told every girlfriend I've ever broken up with that it wasn't them... it was me!!!!!
This is basically fiction. I live here. You never, ever see pictures of him out at this event or that, or hear his name in the news, or really read anything that would suggest he's some Los Angeles-specific character beyond his just enjoying where he's at.

What are you even referencing here? This is a really rich fantasy world of assumptions you've concocted. "Rub shoulders with movie stars" lmao
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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This is basically fiction. I live here. You never, ever see pictures of him out at this event or that, or hear his name in the news, or really read anything that would suggest he's some Los Angeles-specific character beyond his just enjoying where he's at.

What are you even referencing here? This is a really rich fantasy world of assumptions you've concocted. "Rub shoulders with movie stars" lmao
Once again, what incentive does Mookie have to lie about wanting to stay in Boston? I can't think of one - even if all Red Sox fans hated him it won't impact him one bit whether he can convince them or not. It also has zero impact on his bottom line.

Meanwhile, if the Sox decided they didn't want to pay generational talent because they were worried about his aging profile or just didn't want to shell out the money, they would have plenty of incentives to spin a narrative where they had no shot to resign him. The alternate take that they were too cheap to keep him can absolutely impact their bottom line.

In any event, Mookie is our Babe. He just is.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Yeah, no I agree--sorry I can't tell if you misread me or if you're using my post as a jumping off point. We are in agreement down to your punctuation here, completely.

I just had to push back on the Lakers Shaq 2.0 stuff in the post I quoted. Its laughable.
Apologies - it was a jumping off point. We are 100% in agreement here.
 

Daniel_Son

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Thinking about the injury woes the Sox have suffered this season, one of the underappreciated aspects of Mookie's game has been his durability. He's never played less than 120 games in a full season, and only under 130 once in 2021. Truly the definition of a set-it-and-forget-it type of player.
 

brienc

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One of the worst and dumbest trades in league history. I hope John Henry gets hemorrhoids.
Outside of Red Sox fans that have gratitude for the four titles, John Henry will be forever known to the public as the guy that traded Mookie Betts. Hemorrhoids suck, but that might be worse.
 

Late Yclept Chanticleer

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Boston
Outside of Red Sox fans that have gratitude for the four titles, John Henry will be forever known to the public as the guy that traded Mookie Betts. Hemorrhoids suck, but that might be worse.
They won a title under Harry Frazee's ownership as well. I hope history remembers JWH just as fondly.
 

SirPsychoSquints

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,684
Pittsburgh, PA
Hah, people love to say "Flags fly forever" but I guess in Frazee's case, that's not true. I wonder how many fans realize the Sox won a World Series while he owned the team?
I mean - the whole premise is he traded/sold Ruth from the WS winning team.

Edit: It's not like people forget Huizenga owned the 1997 Marlins when they criticize him for the subsequent firesale.