Let's hope so. If they take MHJ at 3 they had better be taking Penix or someone like that in Round 2.
Eliot Wolf will be in charge of the personnel department
- Thread starter soxhop411
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So just ignore the fact that the stuff he said about body language for a QB is the antithesis of what Mac Jones is? I don't think we have to worry about the team thinking bringing Mac back with an updated WR is the answer.
And yet here's Wolf saying "Oh we need to be nicer."
I'm going to worry about it, yeah.
Everyone here knows the single biggest improvement the team can make is firing Mac into the sun. But teams do get insular; let's hope they agree with our POV.
Mayo in his introductory press conference already said he has a different way about him and how he relates to players. He stressed that younger players now they respond differently and often need a different approach. He mentioned gaining their trust so that when you need to provide criticism and feedback it resonates. It just seems a bit different than Bill's renowned video film sessions that highlighted every poor play you've ever made and regularly telling the GOAT QB he could find better play at Foxboro High. Nicer doesn't have to mean soft or weak.
It’s not really a new regime though which is why it comes down to “it was all Bill’s fault”
Groh and Wolf (and Mayo) were all key players in the organization last year. Seems like they’re passing the buck for all the so-called culture problems and failures to Belichick.
I would fully expect Mayo or another coach to have a different way of approaching the job. And Mayo's method makes sense considering he lacks the 20+ year track record of unmatched success that Belichick had.
It just seems to me that they have taken passive-aggressive shots at BB in nearly every presser they've done lately. And that bothers me because it wasn't the culture that was at fault for the shitty season this past year. It was the QB. The defense still played hard in the face of extremely adverse circumstances.
Let's hope this kinder, gentler regime can find a QB. I don't think it's unreasonable to take a "wait and see" approach on this new regime; in BB we trust, all others must pay cash. Find a QB in the draft first and then let's see what they do from there.
What do we expect the guy to say, "We're just going to keep on doing what Bill was doing. It was all Mac's fault, we just need a QB and, voila, the whole thing is fixed."
Obviously the Krafts thought the problem went beyond just Mac, otherwise Bill would still be here. The new guy is being paid to fix the situation and he thinks culture is part of it. Is he right and will it work? Who the fuck knows. But his job is to fix what he thinks is broken and he thinks that the culture is at least a part of it. We'll see if he's right or not.
I don't see it as passive-aggressive shots. Bill was in charge of everything and deserves to take heat for a miserable season that cost him his job. That doesn't detract from what he did prior to the wheels coming off.
Obviously the Krafts thought the problem went beyond just Mac, otherwise Bill would still be here. The new guy is being paid to fix the situation and he thinks culture is part of it. Is he right and will it work? Who the fuck knows. But his job is to fix what he thinks is broken and he thinks that the culture is at least a part of it. We'll see if he's right or not.
I don't see it as passive-aggressive shots. Bill was in charge of everything and deserves to take heat for a miserable season that cost him his job. That doesn't detract from what he did prior to the wheels coming off.
We can agree to disagree.
The team has a new head coach and front office because these people are now empowered to do what they think is in the best interest of the franchise. Of course they are going to say things are going to be different. There is a reason the lyric "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" resonates.
To be clear, this group may repeat the same mistakes the prior one did over the past few years and/or they may produce worse results. Imo we should at least give them the opportunity to confirm our fears before giving up on them but that's not how fans roll so I am on an island here I guess.
As for the comments about the culture, it really feel like this generation of athlete doesn't respond as well as prior ones to some of the management techniques that BB employed so like others here I understand the messaging. The Patriots, at present, don't really have much talent so why not cast as wide a net as possible versus only going after players who can survive your culture. They can define that stuff later with their actual practice and game approach etc.
Let's be clear: It's not madness to think BB was responsible for how things went the last several years. You get the credit, you get the blame. And there were many problems that land at BB's doorstep, not just vague bucks stopping there. Not seeing that two years $50 mill guaranteed for TB12 was a steal. The Patricia catastrophe. The not realizing "the Patricia catastrophe" was, in fact a catastrophe (i.e., having to be forced NOT to run it back with MP as OC); the overrulings of scouts (Gold medal winner, N'Keal Harry over AJ Brown and Deebo); the general mismanagement of Mac Jones. The damned middle ground of franchising Thuney and not signing him long-term, the half-assed trades of Mason and Gilmore, even letting Jakobi and Karras go leave for relative peanuts.
I love BB and I'm so grateful for his work the last two decades, it really bums me out that he may not get the all-time wins record at all and certainly don't get it as HC of the NEP. But those misfires are all on Belichick. He deserves the lion's share of the blame for that, just as he deserved so much of the credit for an unprecedented run of NFL success. Having said all that...
I would guess most people - even the ones blaming Belichick for the role he played in "breaking" Mac Jones - ALSO see that Mac Jones, his emotional make-up, his attitude and his arm-talent level, had a lot to do with his demise too. He's not an elite QB and never will be, and you can't really win with that in the NFL, unless you "Purdy" the guy with a bunch of elite talent, which is arguably harder than landing a franchise QB.
IMO, there's NO WAY anyone in the building is actively pushing to run it back with Mac. He'll be dealt to SF for a 6th any minute is my best-guess, and a disappointing chapter in the BB Era will come to a whimpering close.
The so-called culture problems and failures were all Bill's fault. How can one argue otherwise? I mean, whose were they? Pat Patriot? Zo?
Who is Poodle Pete? Carroll?!
Seems like the guy is suggesting there will be a collaborative approach to personnel and not a “I SHALL LORD OVER ALL OF YOU PEONS” approach.
Yes, Carroll. Pete the Poodle was the nickname foisted upon him by the sports media when it became clear that he had little to no control over the players in the building. That was by far the biggest reason he failed here. They walked all over him.
You can say you're going to a collaborative approach (hell, I have zero problem with that given the experience and success they just punted from the building) without going out of your way to denigrate the most successful period of time in NFL history IMO. Mean old Bill dragged them to 6 SB titles, did he have to be so mean about it?
I have zero recollection of the nickname. None whatsoever.
And I think that’s a real stretch before we’ve even had a draft yet, let alone had players in camp.
I believe that was a Borges-ism.
As I said, we will see. The approach I heard from Wolf gave me very strong Carroll-era vibes. Let's all hope it goes better than that one did.
Did you watch the press conference? I'd recommend it. Wolf was not just daisies and unicorns. He came off as a positive guy but still quite serious.
Oh I am sure he wants to win and is serious about it. At the same time.....just saying. Pete wanted to win here too.
I'm old, I wasn't expecting to think about Patriots-era Pete Carroll today but here we are.
We're hyper-focused on one sentence from that press conference. Instead of:
--we want to "weaponize" the offense (board has been screaming for this)
--moving to a value based approach for players and not strictly a scheme fit (no more Cole Strange in the first, they're gonna bring in talent)
--Wolf has the final say, not Kraft, Glaser, etc.
--going to play more youth (e.g. not bury Pop for a few weeks if he fumbles)
--we want to "weaponize" the offense (board has been screaming for this)
--moving to a value based approach for players and not strictly a scheme fit (no more Cole Strange in the first, they're gonna bring in talent)
--Wolf has the final say, not Kraft, Glaser, etc.
--going to play more youth (e.g. not bury Pop for a few weeks if he fumbles)
green bay has better teams in 1997 and 2011 but ran into 2 buzzsaws a hot denver team if KC or pitt beats denver GB wins by 2 TD'S in 11 gb was 15-1 or 14-2 had they got by eil they win or play a very fun super bowl aga brady i think what he means is for 25 years GB has always been in it winning at least 9 games a year and if u give mrkraft turth juice sure he wants super bowls but if u said to him u will win 11-12 games a year and have home playoff games he wouild take that as well
as without Brady and bill your best hope is to be pitt or gb unlees u get the next mahomes
It's one press conference before anything has been done. Wolf may turn out to be better than his old man and have a bust in Canton. Or he could turn out to be the worst GM ever.
Either way, it won't be because of some throwaway line about collaboration in a press conference before the Combine. I mean, BB wasn't exactly the king of the press conference and he turned out fine
Either way, it won't be because of some throwaway line about collaboration in a press conference before the Combine. I mean, BB wasn't exactly the king of the press conference and he turned out fine
I'm not a Pats fan but I did watch that and this is the stuff that has me most curious when it comes to roster building. How different are the types of players this regime will draft compared to the last considering how much the game has evolved since 2000. All the things DJ mentions is what I would be excited about, but there are always going to be people who parse one sentence and focus on that if they feel its disparaging to BB (at least that's how it comes off to me).
I was going to dispute this given my age and the eras of horrific QB play that I've lived through. And then I realized that you're right. Mac's 2023 was the franchise lowpoint. Worse than Jim Plunkett in his Run for your life!!! phase. Worse than young Steve Grogan who made more turnovers than a French bakery. Worse than old broken down Steve Grogan who couldn't run and threw the ball about as hard as Tim Wakefield in his dotage. Or even the irretrievably broken late 80s Tony Eason. Worse than Marc Wilson Dan Quisenberrying his way through the NFL. Worse than Tommy Hodsdon or whatever the hell was going on with the '92 squad. Worse than Bailey fucking Zappe. It's actually a remarkable feat when you think about it.
“Certainly there’s more of an open — less of a hard-ass type — vibe in the building.”
As a long time fan, could certainly do without this passive aggressive shitting on BB. There's been enough of it in this stupid Dynasty series. Hard not to see Wolf coming off like a Kraft sycophant, along with Mayo referring him to "Thunder Cat" a bazillion times in his intro.
Seems like Bob finally has his guys for his proverbial rub and tug. Sorry but that's just what it seems to be
As a long time fan, could certainly do without this passive aggressive shitting on BB. There's been enough of it in this stupid Dynasty series. Hard not to see Wolf coming off like a Kraft sycophant, along with Mayo referring him to "Thunder Cat" a bazillion times in his intro.
Seems like Bob finally has his guys for his proverbial rub and tug. Sorry but that's just what it seems to be
The value over scheme fit was really the only mildly noteworthy bit there but then again, the positions where BB excelled at finding young talent were the ones where he valued scheme fit. Especially on defense (and I’d argue over his 20 years, OL as well). Taking guys who could play the defense - presumably (?) the same type of stuff Mayo/Covington wanted to do - often meant fit was the most important trait. We saw this with Grier vs Parcells too. Parcells wanted guys who were “football players” and guys he could trust to fit into what he wanted. Grier took athletes and combine freaks and hoped they could work out because they had high value traits (Tebucky Jones, Chris Canty, Tony Simmons among others)
The young players and weaponizing, yeah I’m sure every team wants great young playmakers. Nothing really of substance there unless he’s implying they’d play bad young players over good veterans or something like that. I would hope Mayo will play the guys who are most deserving regardless of age. “Weaponizing” is vague. I’d argue signing Jonnu Smith, Hunter Henry and spending top 50 picks on Harry and Thornton was an attempt to “weaponize”. What offense doesn’t want to add weapons? For all we know, singing Darnell Mooney and Noah Fant could be Wolf’s idea of “weaponizing”
Sure is interesting watching people that have spent twenty years talking about how people emulating Bill and being a hard ass are failing because they’re not BB, then shitting on comments about how the new people in charge are going to be less like BB. But I guess Elliot Wolf is just like Pete Carroll, or something. Hopefully Mayo remains pumped and jacked about the future.
The Packer Way includes not just the Packers, but also John Schneider in Seattle and Andy Reid and all his disciples, plus some personnel guys who did some good things like Reggie McKenzie and Scot McCloughan.
That said, I'm not that interested in Wolf bringing "Packers East" to New England; his background presents a rare opportunity to blend the two styles and systems and that's what I hope he does.
A good summation of the BB era in your post, and I agree Wolf will likely deal Mac for a bag of rotting grapes (in his presser, as others have noted, he seemed to hint at the idea he doesn't want him). I think it's interesting though to see the number of teammates/former teammates who stick up for Mac, most recently Brian Hoyer. I suppose there is "value" in simply cutting ties with someone you feel incapsulates the failures of the recent past, and I agree, too, that Mac made things harder on himself in some respects, but I'll always wonder if under different circumstances he could have become a good starting QB.
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SJH has some serious PTSD over Mac Jones's play, and that trauma is going to be triggered by any statements from new management that can in any way possibly inferred as "maybe Mac is here next year." Not necessarily real ones, basically anything short of "First order of business will undoubtedly be the firing of Mac Jones on a rocket ship into the Sun" will be taken as worrisome. And I feel him.
More than one thing can be true. Bill gave Mac three different offensive coordinators in three years, the second year being worse cats than if you did the job. That doesn't in any way mean that Mac didn't burn his own house down--he did. And he probably would have ended up sucking anyway. But that doesn't mean that Bill didn't mishandle him--he did. The abortion of a pass protection group this year wasn't any good either. Anyone without great wheels would have looked bad. Mac just found a way to lower the floor somehow.
Lots of positives in the rhetoric.
Throwing BB a bone would have been nice is all I think folks are saying - “Bill brought excellence to the organization for a long time and stressed accountability. Our objective is the same - we will make some adjustments like x, y, z for what we need to be successful in today’s NFL but the goal is the same.”
If you do that small bit of acknowledgment then the rest of it is less likely to be inferred as cheap shots. BB was the GOAT so as fans you just want a bit more honor there. Instead we are left reading between the lines that the guy was a pain in the ass to work with. I’m sure that’s true but who are you signaling this to? Mayo is actually the guy players will play for and will hear from.
I don’t think Wolf is shying away from accountability on decision making though which is important.
Throwing BB a bone would have been nice is all I think folks are saying - “Bill brought excellence to the organization for a long time and stressed accountability. Our objective is the same - we will make some adjustments like x, y, z for what we need to be successful in today’s NFL but the goal is the same.”
If you do that small bit of acknowledgment then the rest of it is less likely to be inferred as cheap shots. BB was the GOAT so as fans you just want a bit more honor there. Instead we are left reading between the lines that the guy was a pain in the ass to work with. I’m sure that’s true but who are you signaling this to? Mayo is actually the guy players will play for and will hear from.
I don’t think Wolf is shying away from accountability on decision making though which is important.
That wonder is going to rot your brain! Mac made things harder on himself in all respects. His physical limitations, his panicked decision-making, his inability to step up in pockets, his unwillingness to actually take responsibility...all of it. He has shown us who he is and we should believe it. That he gets any benefit of the doubt in these what if scenarios instead of BB is baffling. He can go fulfill his destiny as SFs backup.
I have two thoughts:
1. Words vs. actions - I'll pause my grading of the new regime until I see the results of the actions. I don't think I'm alone here from reading most of these comments. It was a press conference. (Side note: the previous regime's results were pretty frickin' good)
2. There have been an awful lot of people who have failed by trying to emulate BB, many of them from his "tree". A different tone and being true to yourself (assuming Wolf, Mayo, et al are being genuine) can certainly work.
All that said, I am BB to the core. I would have been happy seeing them wheel him out there 20 years from now, but what do I know. I have been wildly entertained to this point so am trying real hard to keep an open mind.
1. Words vs. actions - I'll pause my grading of the new regime until I see the results of the actions. I don't think I'm alone here from reading most of these comments. It was a press conference. (Side note: the previous regime's results were pretty frickin' good)
2. There have been an awful lot of people who have failed by trying to emulate BB, many of them from his "tree". A different tone and being true to yourself (assuming Wolf, Mayo, et al are being genuine) can certainly work.
All that said, I am BB to the core. I would have been happy seeing them wheel him out there 20 years from now, but what do I know. I have been wildly entertained to this point so am trying real hard to keep an open mind.
BB gave Mac a "real" OC this past year like we had all wanted and Mac promptly got exponentially worse. So I don't buy the changing OCs as any sort of excuse for his poor play.
I'm happy that they've made it clear who has the final decision making power on personnel. (I don't even care if it was made publicly clear who it was. Just that it is clear internally and it's somebody not named Kraft.)
That's the point though, man. It's not an excuse for his poor play. We are agreed.
Doesn't make it any less of a stupid strategy for a young QB.
If a young QB can't handle such changes, he was never going to be any good to begin with.
Launch him into the sun, then onward and upward with the next guy.
The 'Poodle Pete' stuff lands flat to me, because Carroll grew from his failures with the NYJ and NE to craft a Hall of Fame-worthy career in Seattle. That, and the fact that Bob Kraft enabled a dysfunctional front office setup that allowed a hack personnel guy like Bobby Grier to kneecap Carroll's roster by letting Curtis Martin walk and in general had a poor drafting record in those years. Teddy Bruschi and Lawyer Milloy are also on record saying that Carroll's coaching style helped them to become the leaders who would go on to help set the tone in those early years of the dynasty. There are worse coaches to point to than Carroll if you fear the team's direction in the post-BB era.
Pete Carroll is going to the Hall and rightfully so, but it took him 10+ years honing his craft in the college ranks before becoming an NFL HC again. PLUS there's a good argument to be made that his soft-handed handling of Russell Wilson was a big cause for the offensive/defensive rift on the Seahawks that eventually tore that team apart.
Carroll is a guy who was a fantastic college coach and someone I'd send my kid to play for in a cocaine heartbeat if I had a college football player in the house. But when he was coaching the Pats he was very clearly in way over his head and allowed the team to come apart at the seams.
"Poodle Pete" was absolutely an accurate term for his time in New England.
That may have originated form Borges as you suggest, but in my head I'm hearing Butch from the Cape.
