#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[pappymojo]

So JJ'S job is to prepare the balls. He does everything except let the air out of them to get them to 12.5? Brings in someone else that constantly complains about doing it and requires benefits and gifts to do something as simple as let a little air out of it?

Doesn't seem like a boss/employee relationship. Was he even his boss?

JJs job is to prepare the balls. He gets them to a point where Brady is happy with them. McNally then deflates them and brings them to the officials so that the officials will inflate them up to 12.5.

 

[djbayko]

So JJ'S job is to prepare the balls. He does everything except let the air out of them to get them to 12.5? Brings in someone else that constantly complains about doing it and requires benefits and gifts to do something as simple as let a little air out of it?

Doesn't seem like a boss/employee relationship. Was he even his boss?

He was able to influence him to perform the work, so I guess that qualifies as a boss. So he may have required coddling...that happens. I'd imagine gifts are one of many expected perks, especially for someone who is only doing this part time, presumably for the perks.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

I don't believe that McNally would have just slipped a needle in and out of balls in a random way. I would think that you would poke needle, measure, poke needle, measure, repeat until you get it right. But if he became really skilled at putting it in, and for instance counting one one thousand then yanking it and knowing that was the equivalent of 1 psi, then he's a serial deflater. But I'm surprised there isn't some evidence or speculation that he carried a gauge and needle if he was deflating, and if he was, I doubt 140 seconds is enough time to mess with 12 footballs.
 
And the other side of the coin is bad, if he fucks up in that room and a ball ends up at 8 psi or something, he's screwed as it clearly would get discovered throughout the game. The 140 second bathroom break theory has some flaws IMO. 

 

[Devizier]

Don't want to sound like a broken record, but bending over backwards to try and explain things in the best light possible doesn't help in a non-legal case...or in a case that only needs to meet "more probable than not" criteria.
 
The scientific data is inconclusive and can be interpreted by different people in different ways (which gauge, accuracy of gauge, temperatures and humidity, timeline, etc.). The damning thing is that the data was interpreted only in the worst case with not enough caveat to explain the level of uncertainty. That sucks.
 
But, again, McNally was never involved in ball preparation, That was Jastremski. Why would McNally joke about being "the deflator"? He's not supposed to mess with the balls at all. Why would he joke about blowing them up like rugby balls or watermelons? He's not supposed to fuck with the balls at all. Why was he fucking with the balls?
 
There's no quality evidence that the balls were deflated below 12.5. There's no substantive evidence that Brady ever asked anyone to break the rules. There's "more probable than not" evidence that McNally broke the rules.
 
There's substantial evidence that Wells/Exponent manipulated the interpretation of data to come to a bias conclusion. There's substantial evidence that the officials were culpably negligent prior to the Colts game. There's circumstantial evidence that the league was trying to ambush the Patriots based on snitching from other teams. These three things should be bad enough to provoke outrage - more outrage than McNally's guilt.

 
That sums up the whole thing for me, save for the outrage. Too busy for that.

 

[Prodigal Sox]

Schefter on Colin Cowherd:
 
 
2:45 mark: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12872927

 Between Brady And Giselle they have more than enough money to play this out until the end without a huge impact on their worth.  He might be the only one in the league in this position.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
Have you read this?
 
http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/
 

I did. I don't think it contradicts my statement that some (but not all) of the PSI drops can't be explained by the Ideal Gas Law, even if we assume they used the Logo Gauge. We also can't assume all the balls were at 48 degrees because there's a time component - the balls measured later will be closer to room temperature that they were initially measured at. That doesn't mean tampering, but I think the report did a pretty good job running through the scenarios and testing other plausible explanations.
 
There are science flaws - not having initial measurements is a joke, only measuring four of the Colts' balls is a joke, there aren't any time recordings, etc. - but it doesn't make any sense that the ball that was measured 10th and was under 11 on both gauges. This site acknowledges that four of the balls are lower than they should be if they started the game at 12.5.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

So the Guardian has the full texts along with some explanation from depositions:
 
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/06/fuckin-watermelons-coming-the-incriminating-deflategate-texts-in-full
 
A couple of texts jumped out on me that I hadn't noticed before.
 
 
The first is Jastremski's text to his fiance:
 

. One hour prior to this exchange, Jastremski sent the following messages to his fiancée:

    Jastremski (8:04:56am): Ugh...Tom was right.

    Jastremski (8:05:23am): I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs... They were like 16. Felt like bricks
 

 
Obviously that's good for Tom.
 
But then, there's this:
 
30 November 2014
A text message sent by McNally to Jastremski at 6.01pm ET during a Patriots road game against the Green Bay Packers includes another reference to football deflation:

 
With kickoff scheduled for 4.25pm ET, it’s likely the text message was sent at or around halftime. Investigators were unable to discuss the message with McNally because counsel for the Patriots refused to make McNally available for a requested follow-up interview.
McNally (6:01:08pm): Deflate and give somebody that jkt
 

 
That looks suspicious, no?
 
The original May message also looks really bad.
 

 May 2014

During the offseason McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following texts in which McNally referred to himself as “the deflator”:

    McNally (4:37:16pm): You working

    Jastremski (4:37:53pm): Yup

    McNally (4:39:40pm): Nice dude....jimmy needs some kicks....lets make a deal.....come on help the deflator

    [Approximately eight minutes later.]

    McNally (4:47:15pm): Chill buddy im just fuckin with you ....im not going to espn........yet

(The investigators note these messages were among those they were unable to discuss with McNally due to the refusal of counsel for the Patriots to arrange a follow-up interview with McNally.)
 

 
It's also of note that some of the most controversial texts weren't discussed because McNally refused that fifth interview. That also raises suspicious.

 

[Infield Infidel]

 
Mike Tanier at Bleacher Report had the best and funniest take as he often does:
 
-snip -
 
Deflategate makes more sense as social satire than as an actual scandal. It's like Alexander Pope's Rape of the Lock, with cosmic forces warring over 0.7 psi of air pressure instead of a snip of a maiden's hair. There are flawed heroes, complex villains, high stakes, sneaky maneuvers and a shady cover-up, plus an investigation with the scope of the hunt for the Zodiac killer. All that's missing is anything, anything at all, that ever had any real impact on anything.
 
-snip -

 
Rape of the Lock is the exact literary corollary for this and I'm ashamed I didn't think of it first. Tanier's an astute mfer

 

[PedroKsBambino]

How could someone as intelligent as Ted Wells not understanding such elementary science be anything other than willful ignorance?

 
Distinctly possible that Ted Wells had absolutely nothing to do with the science issues.  Which may well prove to be a mistake for him, but is sometimes how these things get done in such investigations.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

I don't believe that McNally would have just slipped a needle in and out of balls in a random way. I would think that you would poke needle, measure, poke needle, measure, repeat until you get it right. But if he became really skilled at putting it in, and for instance counting one one thousand then yanking it and knowing that was the equivalent of 1 psi, then he's a serial deflater. But I'm surprised there isn't some evidence or speculation that he carried a gauge and needle if he was deflating, and if he was, I doubt 140 seconds is enough time to mess with 12 footballs.
 
And the other side of the coin is bad, if he fucks up in that room and a ball ends up at 8 psi or something, he's screwed as it clearly would get discovered throughout the game. The 140 second bathroom break theory has some flaws IMO. 

 
PMB, that's the first/best explanation I've read about why McNally's actions could be misinterpreted. 
 
You're alone in the official's anteroom, or you go into the passageway bathroom because the anteroom has people in it. You don't have one of those gauges (like the logo gauges) that had a deflation button on it, so everything is done by feel and practice. 
 
a) You'd have to NEVER fuck-up, because as you say, one ball noticeably over-soft and the official's on the field are going to notice. In no case does McNally have a pump with him to re-inflate a ball he over-deflated.
 
b) You'd need to be doing this in the official's anteroom for almost every home game and never be caught...by anyone. What are the odds of that?
 
I still can't explain the rugby ball references since McNally shouldn't have access to a pump. In the video previously posted, the game balls came out of a sealed (with a cable tie) bag that the officials started inspecting. I'm only guessing that that bag would be filled with the pre-chosen footballs inflated to whatever the Jastremski guy had inflated them to.
 
Still, a & b offer pretty unusual events

 

[Harry Hooper]

This is insane if true. They were making digital recording devices for security nearly 20 years ago. Anything of importance ought to have a long shelf life.

 
 
The ball is on the tee...

 

[Bob420]

JJs job is to prepare the balls. He gets them to a point where Brady is happy with them. McNally then deflates them and brings them to the officials so that the officials will inflate them up to 12.5.

Why wouldn't JJ just deflate them. Makes no sense.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

It's also of note that some of the most controversial texts weren't discussed because McNally refused that fifth interview. That also raises suspicious.

 
If you read all of these texts in the Wells report, as well as the weak explanations for those texts that JJ and McNally gave in their interviews, its pretty clear that these two jokers were not being forthright with the investigators and were, in all likelihood, up to some shenanigans.  Its not at all clear that Brady knew or sanctioned said shenanigans or that said shenanigans involved purposefully bringing the balls below 12.5 psi.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

This current commissioner and his regime seem to take defiance by anyone personally. It wouldn't shock me if Goodell ignored public pressure to name an independent arbitrator and just went into his own FU mode. This is the punishment and I'm not changing it.

 

[dcmissle]

Would be great if it happened. 
 
Is there any opportunity to getting the draft picks back?

That is a tougher road. They knew the case against Brady may crumble entirely, which is why I was convinced they would take the first round pick. You spend millions in a high profile matter that embarrasses the League and come away with nothing, you are going to get fired. He may well be fired anyway, but that on the year Goodell has just had would have cinched it.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

I would expect that they would try to find a veteran backup, and not roll with two young kids as the only QBs.  The goal for this team, as always, will be to win the division, and having at least one vet QB gives them the best chance to do that.  It's not just if Jimmy G gets hurt-what if he is beyond terrible, you need to be able to pull him out of the game and sub with someone who has a reasonable chance to settle things down.  
 
Scheme-wise, I think BB will do what he has done better than anyone else for the last 15 years-take what he has, and neutralize what the opponent does well.  Against the better pass rushing teams like Buffalo, I'd expect to see a lot of roll outs, moving pockets, etc. I dont think JG is a huge threat as a runner, but he is more mobile than Brady and will force teams to at least pay attention to him taking off.  Probably a ton of short stuff (a healthy Gronk and Scott Chandler are likely to become Jimmy's BFFs).  I think he will throw it more than people expect.  Use the pass to set up the run, and then hammer teams late. Probably not as attacking on D as a lot of us would like to see-I think they will keep it lower risk, lower reward, and keep games close.  
 
I'm fine with 2-2.  3-1 would be fantastic.  Whatever their record, I look forward to the clinic that BB is about to put on.  

 

[garzooma]

How could someone as intelligent as Ted Wells not understanding such elementary science be anything other than willful ignorance?

 
How about someone ask the Princeton professor who vouched for the report, Dan Morrow, to comment on Wells's assertion that which gauge was used doesn't matter?
 
One problem might be that Wells has told Morrow to put a sock in it: 

 
Marlow said the law firm hired by the NFL and in charge of putting the report together has asked him not to comment and to instead refer all questions to the NFL.

 
Which raises interesting questions about free flow of information at universities.  But no matter.  I'm sure Wells would be happy to release Marlow to confirm his understanding of the science.

 

[dcmissle]

This current commissioner and his regime seem to take defiance by anyone personally. It wouldn't shock me if Goodell ignored public pressure to name an independent arbitrator and just went into his own FU mode. This is the punishment and I'm not changing it.

Quite possible. But that would fuel a lawsuit built on the narrative Yee has been laying down the last week -- the narrative that so obviously got under Wells' skin.

And if he does this, he loses the PR battle badly. They are already not faring very well in some quarters you'd expect them to do better.

This has a very different feel than Spygate.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

 
How about someone ask the Princeton professor who vouched for the report, Dan Morrow, to comment on Wells's assertion that which gauge was used doesn't matter?
 
One problem might be that Wells has told Morrow to put a sock in it: 
 
Which raises interesting questions about free flow of information at universities.  But no matter.  I'm sure Wells would be happy to release Marlow to confirm his understanding of the science.

 
Just remember that cooperation is essential.  No doubt Brady's legal team will have fun with this.

 

[Super Nomario]

Why wouldn't JJ just deflate them. Makes no sense.

He does, according to the process the Patriots describe on pages 39-41. McNally has no role in the football preparation process other than delivering the finished footballs.

 

[Harry Hooper]

The 16 PSI balls could have come from officials' carelessness, or it could have been an official's middle finger to Brady (lobbbying via McNally) for requesting balls at 12.5. "Don't tell us how to do our jobs, hotshot."

 

[Nick Kaufman]

I think what Wells recounts here is also problematic:
 

 
“The Patriots provided me, in my opinion, with substantial cooperation except in one critical and crucial area: I wanted to do a second interview with Jim McNally. Jim McNally was the second Patriots person I interviewed. I wanted, after I interviewed others including Tom Brady, to do a second interview of McNally, to put other questions to him,” Wells said.

Wells said he was struck by a text message in which McNally called himself “The Deflator” and wanted to ask him about that. But the Patriots refused to put him in touch with McNally for a follow-up.

“I asked for a second interview, I said I would go to New Hampshire, I would interview him in the morning, afternoon night, I would do it whenever he was free. And they said not only could I not interview him, they wouldn’t even tell him of my request for an interview,” Wells said.

Wells said that contrary to reports that McNally talked to him four times and only refused for a fifth interview, Wells actually only wanted to talk to McNally twice.

“NFL security people talked to McNally on three occasions,” Wells said. “They talked to him on the night of the game for approximately 40 minutes, they talked to him the next morning by telephone for about 20 minutes, they talked to him in person I believe the next day for about 30 minutes. Those are three interviews. The Patriots urged me when I got to the case to start fresh, not to pay any attention to what NFL security had done. In fact they thought the people at NFL Security were biased. They applauded when I said I wanted to start fresh. And for them to later say I couldn’t have a second interview with the most important person in the case was a lack of cooperation.”

Wells also said that although Brady answered all of his questions in an interview, Brady refused to hand over electronic communications that would have helped in the Deflategate investigation.

“Mr. Brady, the report sets forth, he came to the interview, he answered every question, he did not refuse to answer any questions in terms of the back and forth between Mr. Brady and my team — he was totally cooperative,” Wells said. “At the same time, he refused to permit us to review electronic data from his telephone or other instruments. Most of the key evidence in this case as in most cases comes from people’s cell phones and he refused to let us review the phone. And I want to be crystal clear, I told Mr. Brady and his agents I was willing to not take possession of the phone, I don’t want to see any private communications, I said, ‘You keep the phone, you give me documents that are responsive to this investigation and I will take your word for it’ and they still refused.”
 

 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/12/wells-criticizes-patriots-brady-for-lack-of-full-cooperation/

 

[Super Nomario]

The 16 PSI balls could have come from officials' carelessness, or it could have been an official's middle finger to Brady (lobbbying via McNally) for requesting balls at 12.5. "Don't tell us how to do our jobs, hotshot."

No, because the 12.5 lobbying came after (and as a direct result of the incident), according to Brady, Jastremski, et al.

 

[dcmissle]

My suspicion is Goodell badly wants a deal now and will haul Brady in to try to get one.

Good luck. I stand by not one quarter of one game from Tom's perspective.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

This current commissioner and his regime seem to take defiance by anyone personally. It wouldn't shock me if Goodell ignored public pressure to name an independent arbitrator and just went into his own FU mode. This is the punishment and I'm not changing it.

 
Yup, I think this might happen.  Every time with this league I think they've actually gone too far or shot themselves in the foot, they seem to get away with it and be teflon.
 
I don't think that will really happen, though.  While this thread is interesting, the NFL has already won here.  Nobody is going to give a shit about the measurements, or the right gauge, or any of the nonsense that might be uncovered about Kensil and Wells' inconsistencies.  Nobody except us.  We're still going to lose the draft picks.  Maybe the suspension will hold up, maybe it won't but absent some bombshell, anyone hoping for a "name clearing" for Brady is likely to be disappointed.  
 
Average Reds had, to me, the post that makes the most sense several pages ago.  How many of us really remember, or if we remember care, what utter bullshit the Bountygate thing was once a little light had been shined on it?  I'm sure the Saints fans all know about it -- much in the same way we sit there and wonder how anyone can continue the claim that the Patriots taped practices or walk throughs.  And they sit there and wonder why the rest of the world won't pay attention to what's obviously bullshit, which is probably what we'll be doing for the next few decades.  
 
In the end, that's why I think Roger won't be stupid enough to name himself the arbitrator.  It would risk pulling victory from the jaws of defeat.  And while he's stupid, he would be supremely stupid not to realize he's pretty much already won.

 

[dcmissle]

If his goal is simply to hurt the Pats, he has accomplished that. If Brady takes the field in game 1, Goodell has lost a big chunk of this very badly.

 

[PBDWake]

So the Guardian has the full texts along with some explanation from depositions:
 
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/06/fuckin-watermelons-coming-the-incriminating-deflategate-texts-in-full
 
A couple of texts jumped out on me that I hadn't noticed before.
 
 
The first is Jastremski's text to his fiance:

. One hour prior to this exchange, Jastremski sent the following messages to his fiancée:

    Jastremski (8:04:56am): Ugh...Tom was right.

    Jastremski (8:05:23am): I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs... They were like 16. Felt like bricks

 
Obviously that's good for Tom.
 
But then, there's this:
 
30 November 2014
A text message sent by McNally to Jastremski at 6.01pm ET during a Patriots road game against the Green Bay Packers includes another reference to football deflation:
 
That looks suspicious, no?


 
With kickoff scheduled for 4.25pm ET, it’s likely the text message was sent at or around halftime. Investigators were unable to discuss the message with McNally because counsel for the Patriots refused to make McNally available for a requested follow-up interview.
McNally (6:01:08pm): Deflate and give somebody that jkt

 
The original May message also looks really bad.
 
 
It's also of note that some of the most controversial texts weren't discussed because McNally refused that fifth interview. That also raises suspicious.


 
To the first message... here we have a confirmed requested PSI number of 13, not involving the officials or any other party. There is literally zero reason to lie here, in this message, and it didn't work its way into the report?
 
As to the second, this was in Green Bay, right? McNally obviously wasn't there, and without context, it could have started with JJ going "GB is busting our balls again. These balls are way too inflated", that a response of "deflate them jk" makes sense, especially given that GB supplies the ball boys and we know Rogers likes to make sure the balls are filled high, and it's not a leap to think the refs might just fill them for everyone.
 
The 3rd doesn't look good, but I'd still like some context on it.

 

[kartvelo]

 
There are science flaws - not having initial measurements is a joke, only measuring four of the Colts' balls is a joke, there aren't any time recordings, etc. - but it doesn't make any sense that the ball that was measured 10th and was under 11 on both gauges. This site acknowledges that four of the balls are lower than they should be if they started the game at 12.5.

Maybe they didn't. There's no evidence one way or the other.

 

[Devizier]

 
"going forward, we will double down on alienating every other team and fanbase" strikes me as a bad way to win what is in many ways a PR battle.

inevitable, unless the Patriots stop winning. That's the nature of sports; there's nothing special about the Patriots, per se.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
Yup, I think this might happen.  Every time with this league I think they've actually gone too far or shot themselves in the foot, they seem to get away with it and be teflon.
 
I don't think that will really happen, though.  While this thread is interesting, the NFL has already won here.  Nobody is going to give a shit about the measurements, or the right gauge, or any of the nonsense that might be uncovered about Kensil and Wells' inconsistencies.  Nobody except us.  We're still going to lose the draft picks.  Maybe the suspension will hold up, maybe it won't but absent some bombshell, anyone hoping for a "name clearing" for Brady is likely to be disappointed.  
 
Average Reds had, to me, the post that makes the most sense several pages ago.  How many of us really remember, or if we remember care, what utter bullshit the Bountygate thing was once a little light had been shined on it?  I'm sure the Saints fans all know about it -- much in the same way we sit there and wonder how anyone can continue the claim that the Patriots taped practices or walk throughs.  And they sit there and wonder why the rest of the world won't pay attention to what's obviously bullshit, which is probably what we'll be doing for the next few decades.  
 
In the end, that's why I think Roger won't be stupid enough to name himself the arbitrator.  It would risk pulling victory from the jaws of defeat.  And while he's stupid, he would be supremely stupid not to realize he's pretty much already won.

 
For the record, Tagliabue actually found that the facts of the case were substantially similar to what the NFL had alleged - that a bounty program had existed, that many players participated, and that the coaches were running the show and then lied about it afterward.  He vacated the player suspensions because he ruled that the coaches were the key figures and that the league didn't have the authority to suspend the players given that set of facts.

 

[Prodigal Sox]

That is a tougher road. They knew the case against Brady may crumble entirely, which is why I was convinced they would take the first round pick. You spend millions in a high profile matter that embarrasses the League and come away with nothing, you are going to get fired. He may well be fired anyway, but that on the year Goodell has just had would have cinched it.

I don't think they willl get them back either  but Kraft and Brady may end up getting their pound of flesh to go with them.  To paraphrase KFP I think Brady want's to put a strap to Roger's ass and leave his own mark.  This could get very ugly for him and the league.

 

[Harry Hooper]

No, because the 12.5 lobbying came after (and as a direct result of the incident), according to Brady, Jastremski, et al.

 
OK, so the officials just suck at their responsibilities then. {Or maybe that crew had a very poorly calibrated gauge.}
 
 

My suspicion is Goodell badly wants a deal now and will haul Brady in to try to get one.

Good luck. I stand by not one quarter of one game from Tom's perspective.

 
The Commish could dust off the script we gave him in the locked thread:
 

It might happen yet. As dcmissile noted a few days back, Diana Moon Glampers can tip-toe around Brady and really smash the team. Something like, "The evidence regarding Brady's involvement is inconclusive at best, and after meeting with Tom I am confident he knew nothing." Then he can lay on heavy fines and withdraw draft picks from the team, blaming the team somewhere on the continuum from (low end) sloppy procedures and poor oversight to (high end) fostering a "culture of cheating" where employees would believe deflating footballs after referee's inspection is acceptable practice. Result is there's nothing for Brady to appeal, though he still got slimed by the whole affair. The team has no recourse to appeal. Roger looks tough, and his decision is not subject to being overturned.
 

 

[Bob420]

He does, according to the process the Patriots describe on pages 39-41. McNally has no role in the football preparation process other than delivering the finished footballs.

Based on the texts, we know this isn't true.

The numbers alone really have no weight. The NFL lucked out with the texts from these two guys.

 

[shawnrbu]

Gary Tanguay just absolutely destroyed Gregg Doyel for backing out of a TV interview today.  Doyel essentially begged Tanguay to not be mean to him prior to the interview being taped.
 
Gregg Doyel will forever be known as the guy who got walked all over by Gary freaking Tanguay twice on television. 

 

[kartvelo]

 
It might happen yet. As dcmissile noted a few days back, Diana Moon Glampers can tip-toe around Brady and really smash the team. Something like, "The evidence regarding Brady's involvement is inconclusive at best, and after meeting with Tom I am confident he knew nothing." Then he can lay on heavy fines and withdraw draft picks from the team, blaming the team somewhere on the continuum from (low end) sloppy procedures and poor oversight to (high end) fostering a "culture of cheating" where employees would believe deflating footballs after referee's inspection is acceptable practice. Result is there's nothing for Brady to appeal, though he still got slimed by the whole affair. The team has no recourse to appeal. Roger looks tough, and his decision is not subject to being overturned.

Oversight would be.... the officials' job, yes?

 

[natpastime162]

Again, forget the science. Put yourself into an investigator's shoes. Somebody who calls himself the "deflator" disappears wit the footballs before the official gives him permission, goes into a bathroom and lies about it (twice).
 
What would your conclusion be?
 
And how would you interpret the data to conform to your conclusion? Maybe most of the balls weren't below 12.5 at gametime, bu that doesn't mean McNally didn't fuck with them.

 
That is EXACTLY the problem.  The violation is for deflating footballs.  Not for sending text messages, a trip to the bathroom, Tom Brady laughing it off rather than acting like Ryan Braun, or refusing to hand over a personal cell phone.  They can be used to infer a violation took place, but none are directly related to the of the act of illegally deflating footballs.  The one thing that would appear to be able to indicate whether the footballs were fucked with, the measurements of the actual fucking footballs, are somehow irrelevant to determining guilt.  I'm not even sure they can prove the footballs were fucked with considering Walt Anderson never kept records of his initial measurements.

 

[Revkeith]

Gary Tanguay just absolutely destroyed Gregg Doyel for backing out of a TV interview today.  Doyel essentially begged Tanguay to not be mean to him prior to the interview being taped.
 
Gregg Doyel will forever be known as the guy who got walked all over by Gary freaking Tanguay twice on television. 

 
Doyel will be laughing all the way to the bank. He has ten times the publicity he had before this travesty.

 

[Otis Foster]

And, given who the titular Willaims was, I wouldn't be surprised that ties between the League and W&C run deep.

Also, wasn't Boies the NFL's lawyer in the (first?) Brady v. NFL case?

That said, there's always the possibility of preemptive conflict waivers. Who knows.

Shit, I was thinking about Boies as counsel while working out. I even had a new topic heading: "Boies will be Boies" (Had to get it off my chest.)
 
I'd imagine the conflict bar in this would be close to the broader present client rule, even if David hasn't worked with the NFL for a while. Of course,as noted, the terms of Boies original engagement may have contained an anticipatory conflict waiver that leaves Boies free to be adverse to the NFL in unrelated matters - if this counts as unrelated.
 
Even with a preemptive waiver, this would turn into a real shitshow. From a professional perspective, I'd pay a pretty good price for a front row seat at this display of lawyering.

 

[soxhop411]

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw  17m17 minutes ago
How can Tom Brady and Patriots challenge their #DeflateGate punishments? My @SInow legal take: http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/12/deflategate-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-legal-options …
 
Cant quote it all. But this is a really good read
 
Edit: still reading

 

[Marciano490]

Shit, I was thinking about Boies as counsel while working out. I even had a new topic heading: "Boies will be Boies" (Had to get it off my chest.)
 
I'd imagine the conflict bar in this would be close to the broader present client rule, even if David hasn't worked with the NFL for a while. Of course,as noted, the terms of Boies original engagement may have contained an anticipatory conflict waiver that leaves Boies free to be adverse to the NFL in unrelated matters - if this counts as unrelated.
 
Even with a preemptive waiver, this would turn into a real shitshow. From a professional perspective, I'd pay a pretty good price for a front row seat at this display of lawyering.

 
Conflict checks have been going out at firms all over NYC.  The NFL has done a good job of tainting the waters.

 

[Otis Foster]

 
Conflict checks have been going out at firms all over NYC.  The NFL has done a good job of tainting the waters.

 
In some instances, where the contact led to non-substantive matters and it was 'more probable than not' (please forgive me) that the NFL was trying to create conflicts in such a way as to deprive RK of a right to equivalent counsel, courts have refused to order recusal. I imagine David would explain that all in detail to RK and/or TB in advance.

 

[Bleedred]

Did I miss it?  Has Boies been retained by Kraft or is this wishful thinking?

 

[Marciano490]

Did I miss it?  Has Boies been retained by Kraft or is this wishful thinking?

 
Other people's wishful thinking.  I know Boies has a top reputation, and his firm gets some of the best of the best, but the man's record isn't all that impressive (he does take on tough cases, in his defense).  I'd rather have Sullivan.

 

[nattysez]

Brady hiring Kessler makes my bet with Average Reds a very bad one.  I've already said goodbye to my $100.

 

[DJnVa]

 
I understand that the penalty is ridiculous, I understand Wells's logic is badly lacking, but I also think it's a bit much to assume that Brady is 100% innocent given all the facts here and the way he's been acting.

 
When you have advocates, you let them advocate.
 
Brady apparently is of the mind, which more people around here should be, that "just because I can post, doesn't mean I should."

 

[AB in DC]

I think what Wells recounts here is also problematic:
 
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/12/wells-criticizes-patriots-brady-for-lack-of-full-cooperation/

 
This belongs in a new thread ["Kraft on the hot seat"?] but whatever.  
 
This was a colossal, unforgivable error by Kraft and his team.  McNally was at the center of the investigation, and the Wells teams had just uncovered some potentially damaging text messages.  And you allow your lawyer to pitch a hissy fit and reject a second interview out of hand?  McNally was a part-time, seasonal employee.  The Pats have absolutely no obligation toward him.  And what, Kraft felt bad about him going through a second interview?  Just because NFL Security interviewed him three times already?  Well, too bad.  McNally might be a little unhappy, but so what.  Life sucks sometimes.  I'm sure it did (and still does) for McNally.  So find some other way to make it up to him.  Don't blow up the investigation.  I could name dozens of reasons why this whole mess was a stupid, ridiculous, unreasonable series of events.  A second interview for McNally wouldn't be anywhere near my top ten.  Probably not even top twenty.
 
I don't remember how Kraft made his fortune, but he's obviously not even close to the man he used to be.  A real business man wouldn't take his eye off the ball like that, allowing some misplaced compassion for some poor slob to risk millions and millions of dollars of income, goodwill, and whatever else.
 
Worse, it's starting to become a pattern for Kraft.  He's been outspoken defending Goodell in the past through all his screw-ups.  I'm starting to think he just felt bad for Goodell because he became stuck in some very difficult circumstances.  Maybe he feels that Goodell did the best he could in a tough situation.  Goodell was one of his guys, so he was going to stand by Goodell no matter how lousy a job he did.  And now the same with McNally.  There is such a thing as too much loyalty.
 
Look, I'm about as much of an innocent, naive softy as anyone  I'm sure I would felt the same thing -- poor Jim McNally, being railroaded by some bogus investigation when he probably didn't do anything wrong.  And now we're all here watching Tom Brady's and the Patriots' reputation in shambles because no one can explain why McNally called himself "the deflater" in a few text messages.  I still think it may be a totally innocuous comment about something completely unrelated to footballs.  But now we'll never know -- even if McNally speaks up tomorrow, no one will believe him.  This game is over -- we're on to the appeals phase.  
 
In football terms, it's like putting your fifth string DB on the field during a prevent defense because you feel bad that he hasn't gotten onto the field all game -- and then watching him give up the game-tying touchdown pass.  That's all well and good for a Pop Warner game, but not for the NFL.  And right now, I'm not even sure I'd trust Kraft to run a Pop Warner team.

 

[Return of the Dewey]

 
 
The 3rd doesn't look good, but I'd still like some context on it.

Isn't that one of the problems with not allowing McNally come back for interview? It would be reasonable to want to interview in order to provide context.

 

[dcmissle]

A substantial reason Boies left Cravath was conflicts. I bet his retainer letters make it crystal clear that if you hire him once, he's free to oppose you in an unrelated matter down the road.

I'd love Kraft to bring him on, but sort of doubt he will. I just hope it's not some white collar guy who thinks he can defend murder cases.

 

[Marciano490]

 
This belongs in a new thread ["Kraft on the hot seat"?] but whatever.  
 
This was a colossal, unforgivable error by Kraft and his team.  McNally was at the center of the investigation, and the Wells teams had just uncovered some potentially damaging text messages.  And you allow your lawyer to pitch a hissy fit and reject a second interview out of hand?  McNally was a part-time, seasonal employee.  The Pats have absolutely no obligation toward him.  And what, Kraft felt bad about him going through a second interview?  Just because NFL Security interviewed him three times already?  Well, too bad.  McNally might be a little unhappy, but so what.  Life sucks sometimes.  I'm sure it did (and still does) for McNally.  So find some other way to make it up to him.  Don't blow up the investigation.  I could name dozens of reasons why this whole mess was a stupid, ridiculous, unreasonable series of events.  A second interview for McNally wouldn't be anywhere near my top ten.  Probably not even top twenty.
 
I don't remember how Kraft made his fortune, but he's obviously not even close to the man he used to be.  A real business man wouldn't take his eye off the ball like that, allowing some misplaced compassion for some poor slob to risk millions and millions of dollars of income, goodwill, and whatever else.
 
Worse, it's starting to become a pattern for Kraft.  He's been outspoken defending Goodell in the past through all his screw-ups.  I'm starting to think he just felt bad for Goodell because he became stuck in some very difficult circumstances.  Maybe he feels that Goodell did the best he could in a tough situation.  Goodell was one of his guys, so he was going to stand by Goodell no matter how lousy a job he did.  And now the same with McNally.  There is such a thing as too much loyalty.
 
Look, I'm about as much of an innocent, naive softy as anyone  I'm sure I would felt the same thing -- poor Jim McNally, being railroaded by some bogus investigation when he probably didn't do anything wrong.  And now we're all here watching Tom Brady's and the Patriots' reputation in shambles because no one can explain why McNally called himself "the deflater" in a few text messages.  I still think it may be a totally innocuous comment about something completely unrelated to footballs.  But now we'll never know -- even if McNally speaks up tomorrow, no one will believe him.  This game is over -- we're on to the appeals phase.  
 
In football terms, it's like putting your fifth string DB on the field during a prevent defense because you feel bad that he hasn't gotten onto the field all game -- and then watching him give up the game-tying touchdown pass.  That's all well and good for a Pop Warner game, but not for the NFL.  And right now, I'm not even sure I'd trust Kraft to run a Pop Warner team.

 
Congratulations, this is the worst post on the subject in the entire forum, including by Jets fans.  Every word and every paragraph is dripping with idiocy.  I'm not calling you an idiot, but I've seen no evidence to the contrary.
 
Why don't you start that Kraft on the hot seat thread though, and query who's going to put him there.  Got a few billion dollars and V. Stiviano's cousin lurking somewhere?  Or, should we fans just vote him out?

 

[rodderick]

Isn't that one of the problems with not allowing McNally come back for interview? It would be reasonable to want to interview in order to provide context.

And then leave any context provided out of the report and come to the exact same conclusion.