#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
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How about when they announce the Pats on opening night no one comes out and a live shot of the entire team with the 4 Lombardis at British Beer Company appears on the Gillette big screen with Gronk in the background pissing on one of the Lombardis and Brady pulling a wad of Benjamins out from his Bad Ass Motherfucker wallet in the foreground buying a round for everyone?ivanvamp said:
Can you show me where they are? There are rules on the book that team owned cell phones need to be turned over in investigations, and they were. Clearly the NFL has no language on that for players, or Wells would have had Brady's cell phone. Roger might be pissed Brady didn't cooperate, but if not doing more than you're obligated to is a basis of suspension, you might as well tack games on to every suspension issued for not volunteering your guilt to the NFL immediately after whatever happened. Or for appealing your case. Or for any number of perfectly legal by NFL bylaws actions that players have as a right to defend themselves in the face of accusations.dcmissle said:
Aside from the fact that if this were a gambling operation, there might be law enforcement involved, I'd also be fine with the NFL investigators not having access to personal cell phone records. They'll get what they need from a court case, under subpoena power.
Not a lawyer (as you know), but seems the league's argument would be that if Brady "was at least generally aware," he was also in a position to tell Tweedledee and Tweedledum to cut it out and limit their activities to before the pregame check by the referee. In fact, more than anyone else in the organization, he would be in the best position to stop it. That the actions continued places the blame on his shoulders. At least that would be the league's position as I see it.Van Everyman said:
Of course, this all rests on several points that the Wells report discussed, but from my perspective did not conclusively prove:
(1) that the assumptions Wells provided to Exponent are reasonable, the science is solid, and the pressure differential cannot be explained by environmental factors (i.e., human intervention occurred)
(1a) that using the logo vs the non-logo gauge cannot explain the difference (e.g., Anderson thought he was setting the Patriots' balls to 12.5 pregame, but in fact was setting them to 12.2 due to the gauge he was using)
(3) that "deflator" referred to post-check actions and not, for instance, deflating the balls to 12.5 or just under 12.5 prior to the check to ensure that the balls would be reinflated to the low end of the range. In press conference, BB said was part of the process. And while McNally was not involved in ball prep, this could have been part of his role - this the nickname.
And so forth - you catch my drift.
Edit:autocorrect typo
I checked Wells report on the Dolphins matter. Thousands of text messages, voluntarily produced. The report cites full cooperation of everyone, including the players' union.LuckyBen said:
So the issue apparently was not contested.
The Sean Payton analogy is an extremely poor one. The folks that supposedly implemented the player bounty were coaches on Payton's direct staff, and Payton apparently refused to cooperate with the NFL investigation. In this case, Belichick was essentially exonerated by the Wells report. I don't see how Belichick could be punished with anything more than perhaps a fine, if that.
Brady will get punished because (a) Goodell claims to care about the integrity of the game; (b) the text messages between Thing 1 and Thing 2 indicate that a rules violation may have occurred; (c) Brady will be seen as less than cooperative to Wells, both with the failure to turn over his cell phone records and his claim that he did not know McNally. It's the combination that will hurt Brady.
The fact that the Wells report is a complete piece of garbage will only come into play during the appeal. I still say that the well documented problems with the report will mean that a lengthy suspension (i.e., anything greater than a game) will have about a 1% chance of standing up during the appeal.
Finally, the report really makes the firm of PW look nothing more than a bunch of stooges for the NFL. They obviously don't care, but the slant of that report is so blatant that it's almost surprising, and I have little respect for most of these "independent" investigations to begin with.
Brady will get punished because (a) Goodell claims to care about the integrity of the game; (b) the text messages between Thing 1 and Thing 2 indicate that a rules violation may have occurred; (c) Brady will be seen as less than cooperative to Wells, both with the failure to turn over his cell phone records and his claim that he did not know McNally. It's the combination that will hurt Brady.
The fact that the Wells report is a complete piece of garbage will only come into play during the appeal. I still say that the well documented problems with the report will mean that a lengthy suspension (i.e., anything greater than a game) will have about a 1% chance of standing up during the appeal.
Finally, the report really makes the firm of PW look nothing more than a bunch of stooges for the NFL. They obviously don't care, but the slant of that report is so blatant that it's almost surprising, and I have little respect for most of these "independent" investigations to begin with.
Does Brady or any QB have the right to ask the on field officials to check and adjust the PSI of a football during the game? If after the game a qb who wasn't happy and discovered the footballs he used were not inflated to his legal request at the onset of the game, can he make an appeal to the FO to address this?
If not, and the umpires are a bit loose with the PSI settings pregame, despite requests by the teams for certain settings.. what other recourse would the team ball crew have? It's their job to make the balls just so for their QB.
Not making excuses for anyone here, but I can see what McNally might have resorted to do this when the Officials continually produce balls with higher than 12.5 PSI.
If not, and the umpires are a bit loose with the PSI settings pregame, despite requests by the teams for certain settings.. what other recourse would the team ball crew have? It's their job to make the balls just so for their QB.
Not making excuses for anyone here, but I can see what McNally might have resorted to do this when the Officials continually produce balls with higher than 12.5 PSI.
dcmissle said:
There is no precedent here, or indeed to any NFL punishment, beyond RG's desire to placate perceived public outcry.As such, it is more accurate to say that going forward, "all NFL players who more likely than not to be at least somewhat generally aware that their teammate is cheating by using PEDs...and who are also publically called out as such during the playoffs, are also famous enough for average non-football-fan people to hear about it and care, have historically been subject to intense dislike/resentment from a significant percentage of the rest of the league and wider viewing public, and do a shitty job of defending themselves in press conferences, are now subject to punishment that includes suspension."
I'd advise Brady to keep his mouth shut until the punishment and inevitable appeals process runs its course. Already the press is dissecting every single sentence that all the parties involved are saying or even not saying. Better say "I'm still digesting it". Pure innocence is almost impossible to prove in situations like this, so coming out and saying "I'm 100% innocent of any and all wrong doing" just invites reporters to dig deeper into Brady's personal and professional life looking for random dog droppings. Once you're assumed to be guilty, there is nothing you can say that will help the situation. Yee is paid good money to do the talking.
I'd also advise Brady to avoid lying about anything. If he needs to take a mea culpa on his claim to not know McNally (which I think is Brady's biggest problem in this whole thing), then by all means do it during the appeals process. Or he needs to be prepared to justify why he said that to the investigators.
I'd also advise Brady to avoid lying about anything. If he needs to take a mea culpa on his claim to not know McNally (which I think is Brady's biggest problem in this whole thing), then by all means do it during the appeals process. Or he needs to be prepared to justify why he said that to the investigators.
Check out the NFL policy on Game Integrity and Competitive Rules. Failure to cooperate in League investigation into such matters can lead to "appropriate" discipline on team and "responsible inviduals".PBDWake said:
We can spend a lot of time discussing the reach of this, it's limits, whether TB failed to cooperate, if so the consequences of that, and what punishment, if any, is "appropriate".
But there is no need because my points were simply that this is not a slam dunk from TB's perspective, and that this is the aspect of the case that concerns me the most.
Evidently, those beliefs are controversial with some. I am not going to debate this with people who apparently believe NFL players have privacy interests equivalent to those of the average citizen, and that you don't give something up along these lines when you sign up with the League.
I really respect you as a poster, but this point isn't up for debate: nobody has to give up their personal cell phone to any organization outside of the government/court of law without a subponea. Whether you are an athlete or not, you still have rights. I'd laugh in anybody's face that asked me to voluntarily give up my cell phone. With the leaks inside the NFL, who knows what would come out that is on Brady's phone(pictures, other texts, etc.).dcmissle said:
They state in the report that some crews set all the balls at 13 PSI in the interest of "consistency". This along with Brady's experience in the jets game10/16 was Brady's motivation for requesting a copy of the rule which he then asked the team to provide to the officials. I'm sure the officials were not too pleased to be reminded of the rule by the Pats and their Pretty Boy QB.This alone could have led to the reminders by Mc Nally that Brady wanted the balls at 12.5. which also were evidently annoying in the reaction of the ref the "We know we know" response. Players are known for being arrogant especially QBs but no one in sports is identified more with being more thinskinned and arrogant than game officials.norm from cheers said:
How does a multi-game penalty, plus potential loss of a draft choice, plus a large fine for the the less than clear cut and definitive actions of Brady and the ball guys, line-up with the called for sanction of a fine not limited to $25,000?
Lets say Brady is given a 4-game suspension, with the loss of 1/4 of his salary (a couple of million)
How does an arbitrator's decide the above penalties are fair, or legitimate in light of the NFL "sizing" this infraction at approximately $25K?
Lets say Brady is given a 4-game suspension, with the loss of 1/4 of his salary (a couple of million)
How does an arbitrator's decide the above penalties are fair, or legitimate in light of the NFL "sizing" this infraction at approximately $25K?
bankshot1 said:
Yeah it's like getting 2 years in jail for speeding when the minimum punishment is a written warning. Oh, and without any actual proof you were speeding.
The subpoena requirement protects only against government action. Every day in this country people suffer adverse employment consequences for taking positions they would constitutionally protected taking against government, but cannot assert against a private employer.RedOctober3829 said:
Well, at least this happened when the Sox season ended to give us something to watch.
There was no way Goodell wouldn't do this after the shitstorm he was thrown after how horribly be handled this.
He's totally making an example of Brady.
There was no way Goodell wouldn't do this after the shitstorm he was thrown after how horribly be handled this.
He's totally making an example of Brady.
dcmissle said:
Except not every person can afford absolute top-notch legal representation or has the leverage to stand up to their employer. Comparing Brady to a typical every day person in this country doesn't make much sense. Expecting someone in his position to give up his cell phone voluntarily is laughable.
Another aspect of this that would seem to be vulnerable to question on appeal is the total handling of the intercepted football. The league did not see fit to call D'Qwell Jackson to testify. The Colts sideline gauges the ball " around 11". The NFL gauges the ball below 12 not at 11 near the end of the first half. The NFL conveniently sweeps this discrepancy under the rug in footnote 36 where they say the condition of this ball was not considered in their investigation.
This is like not considering an accident report in a reckless driving case.
This whole investigation is a house of cards.
If the league wants to suspend one of their marquee talents and "good citizens" based on what is obviously a premeditated plot they are going to have to consider the circumstances that led to the initial investigation the night of the game.
And they better come up with something beyond "word around the league".
This path can't be avoided by a footnote
This is like not considering an accident report in a reckless driving case.
This whole investigation is a house of cards.
If the league wants to suspend one of their marquee talents and "good citizens" based on what is obviously a premeditated plot they are going to have to consider the circumstances that led to the initial investigation the night of the game.
And they better come up with something beyond "word around the league".
This path can't be avoided by a footnote
RedOctober3829 said:
I don't see how this holds up as a rebuttal. "Has to" is a variable term; no, Brady will not go to jail for this. But, "has to" or get suspended? Maybe. Your position basically amounts to privacy as an inviolate right between a person and employer, and that's simply not the case. He cited you the NFL bylaw, has pointed to precedent where personal cell records were included in 'cooperation', and asked someone to provide him evidence that failure to hand over a cellphone doesn't constitute a violation of that cooperation rule. Examples of "un-Constitutional" provisions in collectively bargained agreements are numerous, and the latitude given to them by the courts is well-known. Saying it doesn't make it true, even if your logic is internally consistent.
Brady does not have the right to not cooperate with the investigation. That part can't be debated. Whether or not handing over the phone constitutes non-cooperation is not a thing that is well-defined enough to say for certain either way. Civil rights don't even enter into it.
I'm not sure the science matters much--if at all. McNally's texts are the smoking gun, and it seems incumbent on the defense to explain them as other than quite suggestive of a conspiracy (OK,to do something inconsequential, but still...).
TB is referenced repeatedly as the driving force behind it, which pretty much makes sense since nobody from Troy Aikman down thinks anyone touches balls without his direction. If McNally is guilty, TB is involved--and his lawyer will not attest he has no relevant texts.
Kraft had a terrible choice to make after the texts were discovered: stonewall, which looks awful, or subject McNally to being grilled by a team led by the prosecutor who headed the investigation into Wall Street insider trading the last few years.
McNally's going to explain to them all the references to needles, deflator, deflating, watermelon, rugby ball, balloon--when he has no role in ball inflation ? They didn't dare produce him.
The team already looked pretty foolish producing a witness trying to claim that "him" worried about the deflator's stress was actually a reference to the stress of JJ trying to get rid of his 50-yardline tickets. Huh? What legal counsel let them float that?
Of course the real motive behind this is the Ravens, Jets, Colts,etc. being losers determined to retaliate for their own humiliating performance shortcomings; the Colts and Ravens are lying to cover up their collusion in setting up the sting.
The only good I can see is that for years to come most AFC games (I guess we can now include Pettine's Browns) will have an insane level of vicious hatred and revenge added--and I fully expect TB to continue to heroically prevail, to much gnashing of teeth.
TB is referenced repeatedly as the driving force behind it, which pretty much makes sense since nobody from Troy Aikman down thinks anyone touches balls without his direction. If McNally is guilty, TB is involved--and his lawyer will not attest he has no relevant texts.
Kraft had a terrible choice to make after the texts were discovered: stonewall, which looks awful, or subject McNally to being grilled by a team led by the prosecutor who headed the investigation into Wall Street insider trading the last few years.
McNally's going to explain to them all the references to needles, deflator, deflating, watermelon, rugby ball, balloon--when he has no role in ball inflation ? They didn't dare produce him.
The team already looked pretty foolish producing a witness trying to claim that "him" worried about the deflator's stress was actually a reference to the stress of JJ trying to get rid of his 50-yardline tickets. Huh? What legal counsel let them float that?
Of course the real motive behind this is the Ravens, Jets, Colts,etc. being losers determined to retaliate for their own humiliating performance shortcomings; the Colts and Ravens are lying to cover up their collusion in setting up the sting.
The only good I can see is that for years to come most AFC games (I guess we can now include Pettine's Browns) will have an insane level of vicious hatred and revenge added--and I fully expect TB to continue to heroically prevail, to much gnashing of teeth.
Im actually curious about where and what it says for you to state that Brady does not have the right to not cooperate with this independent investigation. The fact that it is independent from the NFL would seem to indicate to me that he is not tied to any bylaws through the league.JimBoSox9 said:
lambeau said:
1) What do you mean by "driving force"? "Make sure they're at 12.5 fellas!" doesn't cut it
2) McNally's role is to inform the ref of Brady's preference if adjustments are needed. The balloon threats and the like could be as easily influenced by saying "hey guys, Tom likes them as full as possible". I'll stipulate that does not address the needle references, which are by far the closest this whole tome has to a smoking gun.
LuckyBen said:
When the bylaw regards cooperation with investigation, I really don't think that's how "independent" works, even when it's not being used as a laughably flimsy smokescreen. As to the where and what, I basically reference you to dcmissile's posts over the past few pages, because he seems to know the law.
lambeau said:
[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]This implies the Patriots did not produce McNally a fifth time because they knew the questions he would be asked. But how did they know that? When asked to produce McNally that fifth time, they said, please tell us what your questions will be and we'll pass them along in writing; Paul Weiss refused to do that, and so there is nothing in the report to indicate that the Patriots hid McNally from a fifth interview because they suspected a particular line of questioning based around the text messages. In fact, Well's team had already questioned McNally, in his fourth interview, about other texts (e.g., page 88: "[/SIZE]McNally described these texts as jokes, which we think is likely the case.[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]"), so why would the Patriots think there was suddenly other texts that Wells now was going to ask about? It doesn't follow. Paul Weiss screwed up the investigation by not finding the (edit: supposedly smoking gun) texts before the fourth interview, when they had it for weeks and clearly found other texts, but they don't want to admit it.[/SIZE]
You think the Pats lawyers didn't also take a look at what was on those team-owned phones the same time Wells' team got them?HowBoutDemSox said:
Of course NE knew what was on those phones!
Really the only part I don't get is why Brady couldn't have turned over a handful of irreverent texts between himself and JJ about how he likes his balls smooth or something, really anything. If it is true that Wells was willing to let Brady's camp decide which texts/emails he could send them why couldn't he hand over some fluff to take away this leverage?
Not a good analogy. Here, it is alleged that TB was essentially acting in collusion with the Jamokes, however covertly.riboflav said:
That's absent from your example.
I have a very bad feeling about this. RG cannot be perceived to have been moved by Kraft, TB and the NEP fan base. Even superstars are subject to discipline if they ignore the rules, etc., etc.
There will be payback. And then there will be further discipline.
I think the punishments levied are going to be heavily based on lack of cooperation by both NE and Brady.
They may even make the fine for the ball tampering be the codified minimum of $25K and make everything else a punishment for non-cooperation in the investigation.
They may even make the fine for the ball tampering be the codified minimum of $25K and make everything else a punishment for non-cooperation in the investigation.
Then they would have known what was on the phones before McNally was interviewed by Paul Weiss during the fourth interview, which they allowed. The post I responded to creates the impression that Kraft deliberately withheld McNally from the firth interview because of those texts, but if the Patriots knew about the texts as well, through looking at the phones, then why were they scared of the fifth interview but not the fourth?86spike said:
You think Wells would have just let Brady's camp print them out or get them to him? No, Wells wanted the phone to search for new information with the premise that they would be accommodating to Brady. After reading the report, I would say Brady made the right decision. Wells finding a few texts was not gonna paint Brady in a good light. Wells camp was a wolf in sheeps clothing.j44thor said:
Agreed that the "so do all players now have to rat out steroid users?" Slippery slope argument does not hold water.Otis Foster said:
Ball prep is done 100% for the benefit of and under supervision of Tom Brady. Any shady stuff going on would be for his benefit only.
A teammate strength training is not something done under the direction/supervision or for the direct benefit of any teammate. So a guy using roids does not bear the same dynamic.
Doctor G said:
Of course, back then NFL officials managed one set of balls that were used by both teams.
86spike said:
I don't buy that. Unless you're competing for the same position, anything that makes the team stronger is of pretty direct benefit to the players and coaches.
More importantly, what is really relevant is "protecting the integrity of the game," so awareness that teammates are actively circumventing the rules in theory puts a responsibility on all to report. Yes, we know it won't play out that way.
Here's another question, if RG comes down extraordinarily hard, (8-games for Brady, huge fine, loss of a high pick) does Kraft back-track from his earlier we'll abide by the league ruling, saying something like, our earlier statement was premised on the assumption (and discussions) that any sanctions would be in line with the $25K called for penalty. We believe this penalty is capricious, goes far far beyond the called for penalty, unfairly penalizes this organization, and a player who has always been above reproach...
And yes there is a level of indignation building, and a big part of me wants to see Kraft take on Goodell.
And yes I think this thing started as a bag job/sting operation.
And yes there is a level of indignation building, and a big part of me wants to see Kraft take on Goodell.
And yes I think this thing started as a bag job/sting operation.
Why are you confident of that? Have you checked the CBA? My guess is that it has a general provision agreeing to be bound by League rules.Stitch01 said:
And if that's the case, why did Incognito turn over his text messages. Seems to me the NFLPA would be very aggressive on this point if that I were the law. Also seems to me that this is the point Brady's agent would have been making as he made the rounds during his media whirlwind. I didn't hear that.
bankshot1 said:
Kraft didn't say he would accept league punishment without appeal. Here's the relevant portion:
He said the Patriots would accept the findings of the report and that they would take the appropriate actions based on those findings and any discipline by the league. The latter doesn't mean they won't appeal any discipline, or that Brady wouldn't. And I would imagine they would use any avenues to appeal if they feel the discipline isn't supported by the findings of the report.
Like the rest of the report, there are many ways to interpret that one sentence. They structured it one way, but could have laid it out to Brady with another set of circumstances not listed there. This is again one side of the story, so why are we to believe that this is the whole story. Also, what did Ghost have to hide? Is there a organizational conspiracy going on?epraz said:
Yee said Brady didn't turn over cell records because he is a prominent member of the NFLPA.dcmissle said:
If the CBA stated that no member can be compelled to give private cell info to the league, then Yee would have stated it plainly.
They are hanging on this "prominent" qualifier for a reason.