Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement

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RIrooter09

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Exactly.  Why isn't Pedro being discussed as the possible first unanimous HOF inductee (or why weren't Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, etc). 
 

glennhoffmania

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RIrooter09 said:
Exactly.  Why isn't Pedro being discussed as the possible first unanimous HOF inductee (or why weren't Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, etc). 
 
Because they were all better players than Jeter.
 
Wait, what was the question?
 

WayBackVazquez

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jon abbey said:
 
He led all of MLB in hits in 2012 and helped take NY to the ALCS, missed basically all of 2013 hurt and then spent 2014 sucking for a mediocre at best team that wasn't going anywhere anyway.
 
So feel free to kindle whatever memories you like, do you not remember how the Nomar era ended in BOS? Manny? Pedro on the Phillies in the WS against NY? It rarely ends ideally for anyone, but he's had an impressive last five games at least, at the end of a long season of suck.
 
Yeah, he had a 1.028 OPS in his last month with the team, and an .867 on the year (which would be the 5th best season of Jeter's career).
 

Average Reds

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The final year of "Jeter the icon"  (as opposed to Jeter the ballplayer)  has been such a festival of merchandising, ballwashing and shamelessly ridiculous overstatement that it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
 
Can't speak for anyone else, but this Red Sox fan is so tired of DEREK JETER'S FINAL YEAR that I hope to never mention his name again.
 
 
 

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Dead Balls said:
Yes, but in their last year Nomar, Manny and Pedro were not worshiped like a demigod by NYY fans of various clubs and the media alike. 
 
I think baseball tries to humor the Yankees and keeping the Yankee brand strong, despite years of futility, generates revenue. 
 

jon abbey

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Average Reds said:
The final year of "Jeter the icon"  (as opposed to Jeter the ballplayer)  has been such a festival of merchandising, ballwashing and shamelessly ridiculous overstatement that it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
 
 
 
I think every Yankee fan posting here would agree with this, especially since it's gotten in the way of what's best for the team on the field. 
 

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Hopefully he will ride off into the sunset quietly and settle down in his humble abode with a steady stream of freaky hot chicks never to be herd from again except on Old Timers Day...
 

jon abbey

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It's not a troll job, they shipped him out of town at the end of that month, which improved the team chemistry so much that they finally broke through and won a WS. I'm quite sure you remember this. 
 

WayBackVazquez

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jon abbey said:
It's not a troll job, they shipped him out of town at the end of that month, which improved the team chemistry so much that they finally broke through and won a WS. I'm quite sure you remember this. 
 
Yes, the reason they lost in 2003 and the reason they won in 2004 was the difference between Nomar and OCab, Joe Morgan.
 
On the day he was traded, Nomar had an OPS over 100 points higher than Jeter did. But it was such a brutal ending.
 

caminante11

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Dead Balls said:
Yes, but in their last year Nomar, Manny and Pedro were not worshiped like a demigod by NYY fans of various clubs and the media alike.  NO ONE GAVE PEDRO A BUCKET OF CRABS!  Lol.
 
This is no comparison because all three players changed teams.  None announced that it would be their final year beforehand.
 

Lars The Wanderer

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mauidano said:
Hopefully he will ride off into the sunset quietly and settle down in his humble abode with a steady stream of freaky hot chicks never to be herd from again except on Old Timers Day...
 
He should have gone with less house and more lot, but such is the nature of McMansions nowadays.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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EvilEmpire said:
As for this year, sure, he sucked. But once the year is over, I can't imagine why there would be any sting to it. He's retiring at the end of the first crappy year he's had as a pro.
 
His 2010 was pretty crappy, too.
 
Edit: So was 2011, if you take into consideration that he was making $14 million for it.
 

jon abbey

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WayBackVazquez said:
 
Yes, the reason they lost in 2003 and the reason they won in 2004 was the difference between Nomar and OCab, Joe Morgan.
 
On the day he was traded, Nomar had an OPS over 100 points higher than Jeter did. But it was such a brutal ending.
 
So why did Boston dump an icon for pennies on the dollar then? All of the "Joe Morgan" cracks don't change what actually happened. 
 

WayBackVazquez

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jon abbey said:
 
So why did Boston dump an icon for pennies on the dollar then? All of the "Joe Morgan" cracks don't change what actually happened. 
 
Because he was fighting with management because they courted ARod, because he was nursing injuries and Reese was also hurt, because he was probably going to leave the following year?
 
Things were so bad in Boston after that Simmons article that the Sox came home and went 5-1 on the homestand and Nomar went 12 for 26 with 2 HR. It must have been all the hatred he was feeling from the fans.
 

WayBackVazquez

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jon abbey said:
 
So why did Boston dump an icon for pennies on the dollar then? All of the "Joe Morgan" cracks don't change what actually happened. 
 
It's true, Nomar was the reason the Red Sox never won, and Mattingly cursed the Yankees.
 

jon abbey

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WayBackVazquez said:
 
Because he was fighting with management because they courted ARod, because he was nursing injuries and Reese was also hurt, because he was probably going to leave the following year?
 
 
Right. It ended badly. Thank you. 
 

glennhoffmania

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jon abbey said:
 
So why did Boston dump an icon for pennies on the dollar then? All of the "Joe Morgan" cracks don't change what actually happened. 
 
What does this have to do with anything?  WBV's point was that Nomar wasn't one of the worst players in baseball when his Sox tenure ended, unlike Jeter when his Yankee tenure is ending.
 

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WayBackVazquez said:
 
It's true, Nomar was the reason the Red Sox never won
 
No need to put words in my mouth, clearly you've forgotten some details in the intervening decade. 
 

jon abbey

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glennhoffmania said:
 
What does this have to do with anything?  WBV's point was that Nomar wasn't one of the worst players in baseball when his Sox tenure ended, unlike Jeter when his Yankee tenure is ending.
 
My point was that most tenures end badly, in one way or another. Rarely do guys go out like Jim Brown or Paul O'Neill. 
 

WayBackVazquez

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jon abbey said:
 
No need to put words in my mouth, clearly you've forgotten some details in the intervening decade. 
 
 they shipped him out of town at the end of that month, which improved the team chemistry so much that they finally broke through and won a WS
 
 
Okay, so Nomar wasn't the reason they never won, but his leaving was the reason they finally did. Got it.
 

jon abbey

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WayBackVazquez said:
 
 
Okay, so Nomar wasn't the reason they never won, but his leaving was the reason they finally did. Got it.
 
Heh, you act like I'm making this up, adorable. Nomar was a whiny sulker for the entire season (detailed here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/213230-boston-red-sox-wrap-its-ok-to-forgive-nomar-garciaparra), and BOS was 56-46 when he was dealt. They went 42-18 after that and then 11-3 in the postseason, but I'm sure that was a hundred percent coincidence. 
 

glennhoffmania

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Yes, Nomar was such a baby that his teammates played like shit to spite him.  As soon as he left they decided to put in 100% effort and they won the WS because of it. 
 
Christ.  I didn't realize that the Jeterian intangibles argument could be used in the reverse against Nomar.
 

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No, Nomar wasn't traded because he was sulking on the bench.  He was traded because he had come off a serious wrist injury, and the Red Sox brian trust was concerned whether they could count on him for the postseason. In mid-September with the Cubs he sat out for an 11-game stretch.  Considering his backup was Pokey Reese, the Sox wanted a shortshop who would be more likely to be able to play in October and hit better than Pokey. Thus, enter O-Cab.
 

Dead Balls

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glennhoffmania said:
Yes, Nomar was such a baby that his teammates played like shit to spite him.  As soon as he left they decided to put in 100% effort and they won the WS because of it. 
 
Christ.  I didn't realize that the Jeterian intangibles argument could be used in the reverse against Nomar.
 
"Nomar won't talk to me, I'm going to skip batting practice!", said no one, ever.
 

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Dead Balls said:
 
"Nomar won't talk to me, I'm going to skip batting practice!", said no one, ever.
 
Wow, talk about missing the point.
 
Someone came in here joking they'd taunt Yankee fans for Jeter's end-of-career performance. JA rightly pointed out that that isn't exactly going to sting much, particularly when many players endgame can be generally negative. Is there a reason to believe the negative perception of Nomar's last days is somewhat unfair? Yes. But please with the "it wasn't negative" stuff--unfair or not, it was kinda ugly. He was the Golden Boy and by that time had turned to warring with management, the local media, in addition to reports he was refusing entry into games and using his injury as a bargaining chip. Then he was dumped and we won it all without the former Golden Boy. It's a stretch to call that a negative end in comparison to his status prior to that?
 
To put it another way--how many of you would actually consider an attack of "Jeter sucked his last year!" as stinging in any way to a Yankee fan? That's the kind of zinger many of you breathlessly report your dopey Yankee friends trying out for size. That was the point.
 

glennhoffmania

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JohntheBaptist said:
 
Wow, talk about missing the point.
 
Someone came in here joking they'd taunt Yankee fans for Jeter's end-of-career performance. JA rightly pointed out that that isn't exactly going to sting much, particularly when many players endgame can be generally negative. Is there a reason to believe the negative perception of Nomar's last days is somewhat unfair? Yes. But please with the "it wasn't negative" stuff--unfair or not, it was kinda ugly. He was the Golden Boy and by that time had turned to warring with management, the local media, in addition to reports he was refusing entry into games and using his injury as a bargaining chip. Then he was dumped and we won it all without the former Golden Boy. It's a stretch to call that a negative end in comparison to his status prior to that?
 
To put it another way--how many of you would actually consider an attack of "Jeter sucked his last year!" as stinging in any way to a Yankee fan? That's the kind of zinger many of you breathlessly report your dopey Yankee friends trying out for size. That was the point.
 
No, the point was that some people were having a little fun talking about a really shitty end to Jeter's career, and just like 99% of the time whenever someone criticizes a Yankee a NY fan has to bring up a totally irrelevant situation involving a Sox player.  We're in the Yankee subforum in a thread about Jeter- why are Nomar and Manny being discussed?  We've been inundated with Jeter crap for two decades and we're just enjoying the absurdity of the finale.  There's nothing wrong with that, and there's no reason to revive Nomar comparisons, or any comparisons for that matter.
 

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glennhoffmania said:
 
No, the point was that some people were having a little fun talking about a really shitty end to Jeter's career, and just like 99% of the time whenever someone criticizes a Yankee a NY fan has to bring up a totally irrelevant situation involving a Sox player.  We're in the Yankee subforum in a thread about Jeter- why are Nomar and Manny being discussed?  We've been inundated with Jeter crap for two decades and we're just enjoying the absurdity of the finale.  There's nothing wrong with that, and there's no reason to revive Nomar comparisons, or any comparisons for that matter.
No, that wasn't the point. Go read the exchange again.
 

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jon abbey said:
I think every Yankee fan posting here would agree with this, especially since it's gotten in the way of what's best for the team on the field.
It is true for me. Just like Average Reds said earlier, this entire final season of Jeter As Icon and baseball's ambassador has been terribly overstated and embarrassing for baseball purists. I guess if he hadn't authorized this season of ball-washing by announcing his retirement during spring training, we would instead have been subjected to maybe one month of the media eulogizing him instead of six from every agency invested in the sports, beginning with the shameless Yankees.

I would suggest it is Jeter's selfishness that made him a great player, and it was the same quality of his character that began to leak holes when he couldn't move off shortstop in 2004. He might have been a decent third baseman for a few years and taken a major target off his back.

I still have to say it was a lot of fun having him in pinstripes for 18 years (ignoring the final two).

One more thing: why do the players almost universally hail Jeter as a great player while fans who follow the sport so closely find holes in his game? Are we fans doing the same thing that negative media like CHB do?
 

jon abbey

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Thank you, JtB.
 
glenn, I have rarely seen anyone as insane on any topic on this site as you are on the topic of Derek Jeter (admittedly I mostly avoid V&N). While I'm sure you've been driven to this at least in part by the media and your Yankee fan friends, occasionally I feel the need to respond (mostly I let it go, and again, I have been as harsh as anyone here on the level of Jeter's play this year, day in and day out all season long). 
 
 

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terrynever said:
One more thing: why do the players almost universally hail Jeter as a great player while fans who follow the sport so closely find holes in his game? Are we fans doing the same thing that negative media like CHB do?
 
It's probably because no one cares when we find holes in his game. The first player to say "Jeter had a great career but man, was his defense overrated or what?" would be villified.
 

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Lars The Wanderer said:
It's probably because no one cares when we find holes in his game. The first player to say "Jeter had a great career but man, was his defense overrated or what?" would be villified.
Because they respect him so much?

A lot of the players were kids when Jeter began his MLB career so they grew up watching him. My guess is they mostly respect him for handling so easily the same pressures they experienced when finally in the majors. Jeter made it look easy for a long time. Even now, he is still smiling and enjoying the competition, though he is clearly struggling to remain barely competent.
 

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Unanimous HOFer Jeter:
 
[tablegrid= Jeter 2010-2014 ]Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB 2010-2014 NYY 604 2775 2518 347 713 105 8 36 239 53 17 197 369 0.283 0.340 0.374 0.714 95 942 74 27 19 14 6 Average   121 555 504 69 143 21 2 7 48 11 3 39 74           188 15 5 4 3 1 per 162 games   162 744 675 93 192 29 3 10 65 15 5 53 99           253 20 8 6 4 2  [/tablegrid]
 
Craig "Compiler" Biggio:
 
[tablegrid= Biggio 2003-2007 ]Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB 2003-2007 HOU 750 3230 2916 443 765 195 6 96 306 33 12 197 496 0.262 0.323 0.432 0.755 93 1260 42 71 28 18 6 Average   150 646 583 89 153 39 1 19 61 7 2 39 99           252 8 14 6 4 1 per 162 games   162 698 630 96 166 43 2 21 67 8 3 43 108           273 10 16 7 4 2  [/tablegrid] 
 

glennhoffmania

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terrynever said:
It is true for me. Just like Average Reds said earlier, this entire final season of Jeter As Icon and baseball's ambassador has been terribly overstated and embarrassing for baseball purists. I guess if he hadn't authorized this season of ball-washing by announcing his retirement during spring training, we would instead have been subjected to maybe one month of the media eulogizing him instead of six from every agency invested in the sports, beginning with the shameless Yankees.

I would suggest it is Jeter's selfishness that made him a great player, and it was the same quality of his character that began to leak holes when he couldn't move off shortstop in 2004. He might have been a decent third baseman for a few years and taken a major target off his back.

I still have to say it was a lot of fun having him in pinstripes for 18 years (ignoring the final two).

One more thing: why do the players almost universally hail Jeter as a great player while fans who follow the sport so closely find holes in his game? Are we fans doing the same thing that negative media like CHB do?
 
Good post, Terry.
 
jon abbey said:
Thank you, JtB.
 
glenn, I have rarely seen anyone as insane on any topic on this site as you are on the topic of Derek Jeter (admittedly I mostly avoid V&N). While I'm sure you've been driven to this at least in part by the media and your Yankee fan friends, occasionally I feel the need to respond (mostly I let it go, and again, I have been as harsh as anyone here on the level of Jeter's play this year, day in and day out all season long). 
 
 
Ok, Jon.  I was simply backing up WVB, who made a decent point that ended up getting drown out by irrelevant Nomar comparisons.  But that's fine.
 

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I think for some people it just feels good to have a Derek Jeter around--not the real one, but the one people have projected all this stuff onto. He was already close--he does play hard, he keeps to himself, doesn't say anything stupid, seems to respect his surroundings, plays for the monolithic Yankees, is always visible. The reason people freak out when you question the mythos is because they like the idea of Derek Jeter, and injecting reality and complexity to it, while being more accurate and making him something more real, means that the image can't be exactly what some want it to be.
 
Jeter retiring may be when baseball finally goes post-modern. He really is probably the last guy who'll come along with that weird confluence of personality/ image traits that makes him so easily translated into a pro sport saint. Social media, player movement, the shift from valuing what Jeter represents to these people--it will be a huge longshot for it to come along that seamlessly in one guy again. Thankfully. Hagiographies are boring. I think that's why it's being embraced as a thing so much, too. People know it's the end of that parade.  I'm not saying "they" won't find someone else to do it with, just that Jeter was literally the perfect candidate for it.
 

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Excellent stuff, John. I present Mike Trout as the next icon. His numbers and talent will warrant such status, more so than Jeter. Trout also comes from a great family so maybe his head is in the right place.  Andrew McCutchen also appears worthy of icon status. Perhaps the sport will always have a few players that will lead the way without getting into trouble off the field that makes us cringe.
 

Lars The Wanderer

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terrynever said:
Because they respect him so much?

A lot of the players were kids when Jeter began his MLB career so they grew up watching him. My guess is they mostly respect him for handling so easily the same pressures they experienced when finally in the majors. Jeter made it look easy for a long time. Even now, he is still smiling and enjoying the competition, though he is clearly struggling to remain barely competent.
 
Wait, now it is respect? This is where we started:
 
One more thing: why do the players almost universally hail Jeter as a great player
 
He is a player who was great offensively and dismal defensively. We say that all the time. The reason (to address your original point once again) players do not is because the media would ream them. They've been selling the myth for so long that the first player to contradict them would feel their wrath.
 
Do they respect him? Fuck yeah, but it has more to do with him being "OMG JETER!". Find me a player right now who would say, "Man, Jeter sucked ass with the glove!". Truth is, no one would step up and say that no matter how true it is.
 
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