Dan Shaughnessy: Taking a dump in your mouth one column at a time

Hendu for Kutch

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If Kraft hires Dom Capers instead of Belichick, would anyone say that Parcells turned the franchise around forever? I doubt it. BB's success and championships soften what Parcells did. WIthout BB winning those Super Bowls, Parcells would be remembered with more hate around here.

Remember, in 2000 we weren't still riding some Parcells wave. There were key players around from his tenure, but the Patriots were looked at as one of the worst teams in the league and one of the least likely to have any sustained success at that point.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Tying Parcells to the 6 titles with anything other than an indirect cord is fantasy.
What are you talking about? I never tied Parcells to the six titles.

But what he did for the franchise is immeasurable and Kraft (assuming it his him who has the final say) should get over it already. He won. He’s been the steward of a team that has seen its national profile explode, not to mention six (and counting) Super Bowl championships.
The "he" in the above statement refers to Kraft.

And I'm not sure how you be a Patriot fan before 1993 and not have some sort of appreciation for what Bill Parcells brought to this franchise. Up until that point he was the best coach the team ever had. Up until that point, he was the only figure that brought badly needed legitimacy to this once clown franchise. If that doesn't get him into some BS tourist trap, I don't know who belongs.
 

ifmanis5

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It's amazing (and somewhat amusing) how spoiled we've become. I guess 6 Lombardis will do that to a franchise. The Pats were dead in the water and one foot out the door when Parcells came in, solidified their reputation and got the team to a Super Bowl. In any other normal-ish football franchise that gets you put into their Ring Of Honor or whatever- like Tony Dungy and the Bucs might be a good comp. Also, it's just a team HOF, basically a glorified gift shop. He's the second most important coach in their history, sure put him in. It's just another t-shirt to sell anyway.
 

TheoShmeo

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I've been a Patriots fan since 1972. I rooted for them even before then but my first real memories were from that season, and I've been with them ever since.

I am fully aware that Bill Parcells was a major contributor to the franchise. I need no history lessons and am indeed grateful for his role in turning the tide, which he most assuredly did.

The notion that my views on this topic have anything to do with being "spoiled" is simply wrong. I would guess that is true for all those who disagree with the CHB on this. I am quite certain that I'm not a spoiled Pats fan, as I don't feel remotely entitled or as if I have wins or SBs coming to me and, to the contrary, remain in a state of almost bemusement that my once Charlie Brown like favorite team is, gulp, a legitimate dynasty. Is someone going to wake me up and tell me that this was all a dream and the Pats are still getting screwed over by their own ineptitude and the likes of Ben Dreith?

I'm also the kind of fan who never boos the home team or any of its players. And I mean never. But there's one circumstance in which I would break that rule, and that's if I perceived a lack of commitment to the team. Or a player totally dogging it. And I don't mean a Manny or Ortiz not running a ball out as if they were Dustin Pedroia or some other guy who famously is balls to the walls at all times. I mean a guy who downright quit on his team.

For me, despite all the good things Parcells did, and we all know exactly what they were, that he did ANYTHING that made winning that GB Super Bowl less likely crosses the line. Violently. It's simply unforgivable.

And for what? Did he really believe that the Jets would not be around after the Super Bowl? Even if Robert Kraft was a horrible jackass to Parcells, the HC owed it to himself, his assistants, his players, everyone else who worked for team, and yes, the fans, to make those two weeks be ONLY about preparation for the Packers. And even if that's naïve, and people can walk and chew gum at the same time, Parcells simply could not let the story gain life, become a huge talking point and a huge distraction. Reports are that Bledsoe approached Parcells before the game and said it had been an honor playing for him. That's nice on one level, and I'm sure it was true. But damn, I want Bledsoe thinking about topics other than his reportedly departing head coach at that time. And I don't want players thinking about the leadership of their team; I want them thinking about their assignments and how they can help their team win. I want that to the greatest extent possible.

Of course, we can't measure how the shit storm about the Jets affected the team's preparation. But I think only a total Parcells Fanboy would argue that it was a positive or that there is no reasonable chance that it was a negative. Like the swirl caused by SpyGate and John Tomase's rush to break his bogus story a decade or so later, I will always believe that the Pats would have been at their best without the extreme noise swirling around the team. One can argue that SpyGate was also self inflicted; with Parcells, there's nothing to debate. The HC introduced the problem.

So no, its' not about being spoiled. Or the 6 Titles. It's exactly the opposite, actually. It's about putting myself in the mindset of a fan whose team had never won jackshit when Parcells did what he did, and seeing the chance to finally win the big game sabotaged to some extent by the very man whose mantra was "No I in Team."

Last, as I've alluded to above, it's not as if Parcells doesn't have serious, deserving competition. You can rank order these names however but the following players are not now in the Pats HOF:

Randy Moss
Julius Adams
Tim Fox
Russ Francis
Rodney Harrison
Lawyer Milloy
Richard Seymour
Mike Vrabel
Wes Welker
Fred Marion

And I'm sure there are other deserving players who I did not cherry pick from the original list of 13 candidates (that Bill was on, by the way).

The CHB takes the Pats to task for not putting Parcells above the players on that list. Seymour, Vrabel and Harrison are on the ballot this year. For me, each of the finalists is head and shoulders above Parcells. For those advocating Parcells, which of those three should be behind Bill?
 

joe dokes

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And I'm sure there are other deserving players who I did not cherry pick from the original list of 13 candidates (that Bill was on, by the way).

The CHB takes the Pats to task for not putting Parcells above the players on that list. Seymour, Vrabel and Harrison are on the ballot this year. For me, each of the finalists is head and shoulders above Parcells. For those advocating Parcells, which of those three should be behind Bill?
Seeing how it was opened in 2008 and that Parcells was here at least 10 years before that, the list of people that "should be" ahead of him is only going to grow larger. Using that standard, he'll never "deserve" it, until perhaps they field another generation of bad players.
 

lexrageorge

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Kraft had a lease agreement with the team through 2001 that essentially gave him control over its movement. They weren’t going to St. Louis, which is why Orthwein eventually sold. The rest of this is myth making. Maybe there’s a media good guy award they can bestow upon him instead, since it seems aging sportswriters are the primary carriers of his water.
A couple of common mistakes above. First, the threat to move was real; the league wanted to the team to move, as did Orthwein.

Orthwein bought the team as a favor to the NFL as the team was close to folding. He bought it with the understanding that he would be allowed to get out in a few years. The league had a mandate for teams to play in either domed stadiums or warm weather locations, and Orthwein, being from St. Louis, had the intention of moving the team and selling to local owners in the St. Louis area. St. Louis had plans to build their stadium that would eventually become the home of the Rams.

Orthwein could have sold the team to owners other than Kraft, and they could have moved the team. Kraft would have sued to enforce the lease, and the result would have been a settlement with a good chunk of change going Kraft's way. Of course, the prospective owners new this, and so their offer to buy the team was lower than Kraft's.
 

Harry Hooper

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Orthwein could have sold the team to owners other than Kraft, and they could have moved the team. Kraft would have sued to enforce the lease, and the result would have been a settlement with a good chunk of change going Kraft's way. Of course, the prospective owners new this, and so their offer to buy the team was lower than Kraft's.
Not exactly, at least until 2001, according to this Inc. magazine piece:

if Kiam moved the Patriots to Jacksonville, then Kraft would be stuck with a worthless stadium and worthless parking lots.

But he didn't have to worry. The stadium's lease with the Patriots included an operating covenant that required the team to remain in the stadium through 2001. They couldn't just leave and keep paying rent; if you agree to an operating covenant, you have to operate your business from that location. If Kiam broke the lease, in Massachusetts the repercussions would not just be civil--they could be criminal.

So Kiam, and the Patriots, were stuck in Foxboro Stadium.

Which Kraft owned.
In 1992 Kiam ran into financial trouble of his own: The Patriots were losing money and so was Remington, his primary business. So he sold the Patriots to James Orthwein. Orthwein, a member of the Busch family and major shareholder of Anheuser-Busch, hoped to move the Patriots to St. Louis.

But Kraft held the trump card: The stadium's operating covenant still had 8 years left to run. Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to get out of the stadium lease, three times what he had paid. But he wouldn't budge. And eventually Orthwein grew frustrated and put the team up for sale.

After a long bidding process, Kraft's winning bid was $172 million, a then-record amount for an NFL franchise.

Or from this 1994 NYT piece:

In securing the Patriots, Kraft, a multimillionaire philanthropist who made his fortune in paper and paper products, bested well-financed rivals from Boston, St. Louis, Baltimore and Hartford. The chief competition came from Stan Kroenke, a St. Louis businessman who reportedly offered as much as $200 million with the intention of moving the team to St. Louis.

However, the Kroenke offer required Orthwein to assume all related costs, including league fees of as much as $20 million for moving the team. More ominously, the bid also required Orthwein to incur open-ended legal and other costs of getting out of the team's lease on Foxboro Stadium, which has eight years to run.

Refused to Sell Lease

"I made the best bid with the least headaches," Kraft said, noting that as the stadium leaseholder, he would have been the Kroenke bid's chief headache.

"I'm not going to be the most popular man" in St. Louis, Orthwein said. "I'm going to still do the best I can for my hometown to help them get a team. As far as owning a team, I'm done with that."

Kraft, who bought Foxboro Stadium with a partner for $25 million at a bankruptcy sale in 1988 and who bought out his partner last month, said the present value of the lease had been estimated at $50 million to $100 million.

"People have offered me all sorts of money for the lease," he said, "but I let it be known that I wouldn't sell at any price."

He also let it be known that he would seek to enforce provisions of the lease that he maintains require the Patriots not only to make lease payments but also to play in the stadium. "I would have sought an injunction to keep the team in Foxboro," he said.

And Forbes had this:

By the end of 1988 Kraft had rights to the land, and with the stadium he controlled $2 million a year from parking, concessions and signage. More important, the stadium held an operating covenant that required the Patriots to stay put until 2001. "Now I had 13 years to try to figure out how to get the team."
 
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TheoShmeo

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No one is more obvious about his agenda than the CHB. In a column about how the Sox are now worth watching again -- funny, I guess we're all supposed to be fair weather fans and only watch when they are winning -- Shank can't resist a few paragraphs about why the Sox SHOULD be divided over how the White House ceremony. As if anyone cares about this issue, including the players. As if the reference has anything at all to do with the headline or premise of his story. He's such a piece of shit.
 

Average Reds

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No one is more obvious about his agenda than the CHB. In a column about how the Sox are now worth watching again -- funny, I guess we're all supposed to be fair weather fans and only watch when they are winning -- Shank can't resist a few paragraphs about why the Sox SHOULD be divided over how the White House ceremony. As if anyone cares about this issue, including the players. As if the reference has anything at all to do with the headline or premise of his story. He's such a piece of shit.
Shank is a troll, but I find it hard to accept the idea that no one cares about the White House visit. If it was a big nothingburger, they'd have all gone.
 

TheoShmeo

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Shank is a troll, but I find it hard to accept the idea that no one cares about the White House visit. If it was a big nothingburger, they'd have all gone.
I mean now. Do you think this is an issue in the Sox clubhouse? Even the CHB seems to acknowledge that it’s not “but but but it should be dammit.”

Beyond that, his placement was just weird. 90 percent of that piece was on how the Sox are now relevant again with a little Trump Turd dropped in for good measure.
 

joe dokes

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I mean now. Do you think this is an issue in the Sox clubhouse? Even the CHB seems to acknowledge that it’s not “but but but it should be dammit.”

Beyond that, his placement was just weird. 90 percent of that piece was on how the Sox are now relevant again with a little Trump Turd dropped in for good measure.
I think his point was that many teams might have not remained united. He even mentioned Cora's ability to keep them together. Frankly it is impressive.
And they just went two days ago, so there's nothing odd at about the placement. I also hadnt realized that no one gave the manager or MVP a shout-out til I read it in his column. Thats unfortunate.
Just because he's an asshole doesn't mean he always acts like one.
 

TheoShmeo

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I think his point was that many teams might have not remained united. He even mentioned Cora's ability to keep them together. Frankly it is impressive.
And they just went two days ago, so there's nothing odd at about the placement. I also hadnt realized that no one gave the manager or MVP a shout-out til I read it in his column. Thats unfortunate.
Just because he's an asshole doesn't mean he always acts like one.
The timing is fine. It’s still topical.

I just found the placement in that column to be forced. He was all in on the “they’re playing well now, pay attention” angle and then he dropped the visit in and returned to his main theme. To me, it smacked of a guy itching to make a point and raising it in the wrong place.
 

Average Reds

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I mean now. Do you think this is an issue in the Sox clubhouse? Even the CHB seems to acknowledge that it’s not “but but but it should be dammit.”
I have no idea if it's an issue. Regardless, it's not an unreasonable question.

Beyond that, his placement was just weird. 90 percent of that piece was on how the Sox are now relevant again with a little Trump Turd dropped in for good measure.
I didn't read it, but this strikes me as fair.

As we both recognized, he's a troll.
 

Humphrey

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The Globe's management always touts Shank's "courage". In terms of that article, it would have been much more courageous for him to write it two weeks earlier; that is, tell the fans to cool it, the Sox would start playing better soon. He could even have stuck in a few tomato can references given that several of the AL teams weren't going to end up with their current winning percentages.

Of course, for him, it was more fun to just shit on them until they started to win.
 

TheoShmeo

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Fair is fair, the CHB’s lines today about Grady Little and Earl Weaver in his Bruins column were pretty funny.
 

Humphrey

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You'll notice that he's on JBJ's case the last week or so. Several references, most of which are in places where none is needed.

I just love it when Shank zeroes in on a guy and the guy bounces back. Let's hope this is one of those times.
 

joe dokes

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You'll notice that he's on JBJ's case the last week or so. Several references, most of which are in places where none is needed.

I just love it when Shank zeroes in on a guy and the guy bounces back. Let's hope this is one of those times.
If Earl Weaver was alive, first he'd offer Shaughnessy some cigarettes. Then he'd say "Bradley? He's my Mark Belanger."
 

nattysez

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His shameless hypocrisy has reached a whole new level. His stupid book had a picture of Buckner after the ball had passed through his legs on the cover.
 

Deweys New Stance

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His shameless hypocrisy has reached a whole new level. His stupid book had a picture of Buckner after the ball had passed through his legs on the cover.
It's actually worse than that. I haven't read that book in nearly 30 years, but I still recall a section where Shank claims Buckner voted before the '86 postseason to stiff the clubhouse attendants and batboys out of playoff shares, and gloated in the clubhouse about how he was going to use his playoff shares to buy a flashy new sports car. Shank claimed that Marty Barrett and a couple teammates were aghast and tried to make it up the clubhouse staff. The clear point of the story was to paint Buckner as a greedy jerk and a villain who got what he deserved with the Game 6 outcome. For Shaughnessy to now attempt to scold others for the way Buckner was treated for decades in the media is vile.