Dan Shaughnessy: Taking a dump in your mouth one column at a time

dcmissle

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That would be a suitable essay by Bob Costas — after suckling off the NFL for many years (like Howard Cosell and boxing). Shank is trolling people who remain in the club.
 

Dogman2

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Is it CHB's columns or this thread that give poopy mouth?

You continue to highlight how strange you are, Theo. To be sure, you should send me an email about it though.
 

TheoShmeo

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Is it CHB's columns or this thread that give poopy mouth?

You continue to highlight how strange you are, Theo. To be sure, you should send me an email about it though.
I’m good with being strange. Aren’t we all?

I have no opinion of you and your strangeness level. Feel free to email me to explain it. Or don’t.
 

BJBSJ

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Dan Shaughnessy personally dislikes Bob Kraft. The Boston Globe, through its parent company, has a business interest in having the Patriots seen in a negative light compared to the Red Sox. The Red Sox owner’s child bride, while letting Bob Hohler emphasize Ricki Lander’s age, has authorized about 30k words over the last 3 weeks delving into the evils of human trafficking by trampolining off a human trafficking investigation in which not one indictment for human trafficking has been issued. Seems on the up and up...
 

Myt1

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Dan Shaughnessy personally dislikes Bob Kraft. The Boston Globe, through its parent company, has a business interest in having the Patriots seen in a negative light compared to the Red Sox. The Red Sox owner’s child bride, while letting Bob Hohler emphasize Ricki Lander’s age, has authorized about 30k words over the last 3 weeks delving into the evils of human trafficking by trampolining off a human trafficking investigation in which not one indictment for human trafficking has been issued. Seems on the up and up...
What’s the business interest in having the Patriots seen in a negative light compared to the Red Sox and are you really calling a 40 year old who married when she was 30 a “child bride” while angling that a human trafficking investigation was what, falsely characterized to try to do more harm to a 78 year old billionaire who got caught at a massage parlor in a strip mall?

Christ, this place attracts some weird fucking people.
 

TheoShmeo

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I'm often critical of the CHB but I think his column, now up on the Globe site, about the Sale signing perhaps being premature raises a fair question. Given Sale's second half of 2018 and diminished availability in October, I was a little surprised to see DD not at least wait to see how Sale looked in 2019 before jumping in. I get that he might not have the chance to avoid a market test had he let it ride too far with Sale, and my comments are not driven by one crappy start this year. But I think Dan was measured and fair with this one.

Ironically, my brother and I were discussing the state of the Sox during the craptastic Sunday game and he was adamant that they should sign Bogie up long term and should have waited on Sale. It's a little disconcerting to be simpatico with Dan, or related to someone who is. But I think there is a good argument that both are right on these two transactions and that this is not the usual Dan scratching the blackboard nonsense. Or the "often" such nonsense.
 

Dick Pole Upside

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The Kremlinesque erasure of Larry Lucchino from Red Sox history continues.
Dan acting wounded about the disappearance of one of the more polarizing figures in Sox history is the height of irony. It's not like Shank needs Deep Throat to lob grenades and recycle negative Sox tropes.
 

TheoShmeo

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A funny. Yippee for you.

When the Cs win, do you think much about Wyc? Was John Henry on your mind when Sale corkscrewed Machado? How about Jacobs when the Bruins broke through in game 7?

To me, the owners are there, I like some more than others, and I very much appreciate when they facilitate winning, but the suggestion that it’s drinking the kool aid to link being a die hard fan of the team to the current fate of the owner is asinine.

Owners come and go. I was a Pats fan under the Sullivans, Victor Kiam, James Orthwein and Bob Kraft. Equally. Sure, Kraft’s ownership has been awesome and he’s enjoyed phenomenal success. I’m grateful to him for his role in the success of the franchise. But the Pats play on the field is what drives most fans, not the legal travails of the money behind them.

I wonder if Yankees fans thought it was an uncomfortable time to root for their team when SiaS became a felon. I tend to doubt it.
 
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Vinho Tinto

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Outside of a legendary coach (Belichick, Lombardi, Noll, Walsh) or player (Bird, Jordan), the owners define the culture of the team. When you see an owner doing something buffoonish, it usually mirrors a silly tenure of owning a team. Donald Sterling was a perfect example of this.

Kraft has been an excellent owner, so that makes this really standout. As long as they have Belichick running football operations, the on field product should be fine; but I’m firmly in the belief that the transition of duties from Robert to Jonathon should be in full motion now. I don’t trust Kraft without Belichick, which is a big change for me.

Outside New England, Robert has rarely gotten the proper credit for identifying/hiring Belichick in 2000 and subsequent growing of the New England Patriots. I believe the current version of Kraft is no longer that shrewd decision maker.
 

TheoShmeo

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Outside of a legendary coach (Belichick, Lombardi, Noll, Walsh) or player (Bird, Jordan), the owners define the culture of the team. When you see an owner doing something buffoonish, it usually mirrors a silly tenure of owning a team. Donald Sterling was a perfect example of this.

Kraft has been an excellent owner, so that makes this really standout. As long as they have Belichick running football operations, the on field product should be fine; but I’m firmly in the belief that the transition of duties from Robert to Jonathon should be in full motion now. I don’t trust Kraft without Belichick, which is a big change for me.

Outside New England, Robert has rarely gotten the proper credit for identifying/hiring Belichick in 2000 and subsequent growing of the New England Patriots. I believe the current version of Kraft is no longer that shrewd decision maker.
Other than decisions around the blow job and the response to same, what is the basis for your last line?

I mean, they did win the SB last year so it’s hard to point to anything much last year where Kraft was a bad decision maker. The vast majority of the key decisions are almost certainly Bill’s, in any event.

From my perspective, RKK and his son are probably indistinguishable. I assume that no key decisions have been made by ownership without both of their involvement and in the vast majority of cases, agreement.

But if I was forced to choose right now, I’d still take Robert. He is more of the devil I know. Jonathan could attempt to put his stamp on things and take them in a different, worse direction. I’m not particularly worried about that but the Law of Unintended Consequences could apply in his case.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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When the Cs win, do you think much about Wyc? Was John Henry on your mind when Sale corkscrewed Machado? How about Jacobs when the Bruins broke through in game 7?
Maybe not at that particular moment, but yes, most of us do think of the owners when the hometown teams do well. Like Wyc had to sign off getting Garnett and Allen and going all in on that particular championship. Most people think Jeremy Jacobs is a PoS and we're glad that the B's won, but weren't particularly pleased that this cheapskate owner got a championship. And were you around for 2004? Every other article mentioned LL, Werner and Henry. People were practically throwing them a parade for, again, not cheaping out and bringing the Sox to mountaintop. And even after last year's win, many people on this very board were gobsmacked that this ownership -- which was viewed with suspicion in the early days -- had brought four championships to Fenway Park.

So yeah, I think that the ownership does matter a little bit.

And furthermore, you say that you were a Pats fan through Sullivan, Orthwein, Kiam, etc. How can you not say that ownership doesn't matter? That the philosophy of the people in charge doesn't go down to the front office, the coaches and managers and to the team? Look at all of the shitty franchises, most of them have one thing in common: shitty ownership. There might be an anomaly here and there (the 1997 Marlins is a good one to look at) but it's never sustained.

So if it's true with the good owners who do good things and the bad owners that do bad things, don't you think that the stink of a $60 handjob is a little embarrassing? At least admit that on January 19, you didn't want to think about Bob Kraft getting a hand jackson from some masseuse in a Florida strip mall.
 

ifmanis5

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For the people here who had to live through John Y. Brown, Haywood Sullivan and Victor Kiam, yes owners matter a lot. If Charles Dolan was in charge of your team, you'd have some thoughts about how he represents the players, the organization and the city. Kraft knows all of that as well and has said as much. So, agreed with JMOH on this take for sure.
 

TheoShmeo

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The complete and total lack of judgement he displayed by doing visiting the parlor, at least twice, and how he is handling his defense.
I agree that he’s handled this very poorly. I found myself nodding at all of Chris Gasper’s recent column wherein he said RKK may win the litigation war but lose the PR battle.

But I don’t think mishandling a deeply personal and troubling mistake, or even making it, tells us much, if anything, about how he will handle future football or broader team related decisions.

He’s heavily biased and almost compromised when it comes to himself and his personal legacy. It must be horrifying to contemplate having your good name sullied overnight. But I just don’t see why one necessarily implicates the other.
 
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TheoShmeo

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Of course owners matter. JMOH makes good points but they don’t directly go to why many people are still entirely comfortable being Pats fans even though the owner has shit the bed.

For me, Kraft’s problems are a terrible thing. For many reasons, I truly wish this had never happened. And I wish he would just make it go away quickly.

But sorry, that doesn’t remotely translate into what Dan Shaughnessy asserted — that it’s an uncomfortable time to be a Pats fan.

If Kraft had done something that was directly tied to football operations, it would almost certainly be different. Then there would be a link between his conduct and what happens on football Sundays. Here, the only link is the bizarre fact that he chose to get a handy in a mall several hours before the Pats handled the Chiefs in one of the best games of the year.

Maybe I’m just in a Lombardi filled haze. I admit that I’m still kvelling over title number 6 and taking great pleasure in how good their win made me feel and how bad it made so much of the country feel.

Off the field bad conduct, having no bearing on football stuff, is annoying and truly unfortunate, but it doesn’t begin to approach the level suggested by the CHB.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Of course ownership matters, it might be the most important thing in terms of building the right culture around a team, hiring the right management, and investing in the team to win. But does it matter what kind of person an owner is? It would be better if they were good people, but I'm not sure it matters. If you are a fan of an NFL team there's a good chance the owner of the team you root for is an asshole.

The assertion Shag made that Theo objected to was that being a Pats fan is becoming "increasingly uncomfortable". I mean sure, it's embarrassing but it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual football product on the field and personally I do not feel uncomfortable rooting for the Pats because Kraft paid for a handie in an Asian spa. The Pats are a team of football players that I root for to win football games. Kraft did something stupid, embarrassing and regrettable, that has absolutely nothing to do with football. It doesn't lessen my enjoyment of the Super Bowl win or the off-season preparation for a title defense at all. YMMV.
 

Humphrey

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Would Shank getting shoved back onto the baseball beat (due to the Nick tragedy) been worse had it happened last last year; when the Sox got off to a tremendous start; or this year when they are struggling mightily? Rest assured in 2018 it would have been one tomato can reference after another.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Would Shank getting shoved back onto the baseball beat (due to the Nick tragedy) been worse had it happened last last year; when the Sox got off to a tremendous start; or this year when they are struggling mightily? Rest assured in 2018 it would have been one tomato can reference after another.
Wha?
 

Sausage in Section 17

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Of course ownership matters, it might be the most important thing in terms of building the right culture around a team, hiring the right management, and investing in the team to win. But does it matter what kind of person an owner is? It would be better if they were good people, but I'm not sure it matters. If you are a fan of an NFL team there's a good chance the owner of the team you root for is an asshole.
No kidding. This could be extended to pro sports owners in general, but just looking at the NFL, I’ll take the owners collective repression of the concussion and CTE issue over a couple of handjobs as far as morally reprehensible behavior and a reason to feel uncomfortable as an NFL fan.

Lotsa handwringing for handjobs....
 

jose melendez

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You can have a lucky season with a crap owner--it happens all the time--but being good year in and year out require decent ownership. It's absolutely no coincidence that the Sox and Pats turned around with ownership changes.

As for it being increasingly uncomfortable to be a Pats fan, not really. People insisting Bob Kraft is a good person--or even a really good person-- might want to reevaluate.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Dan is circling the Red Sox now like a shark. https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2019/04/16/shaughnessy/N1Y8ItQxrglujNEdU6i2kI/story.html

Nobody scapegoats like your Boston Red Sox (hello, Juan Nieves and Chili Davis), and so on Tuesday the world learned that Swihart had been outrighted to make room for the return of Leon, who was batting a robust .120 with Pawtucket.

Do not wait under water for the Sox to admit that they were wrong about anything. Ever. They aren’t likely to admit they misused and abused Swihart starting in 2016 (they are now likely to get zip for an athletic, switch-hitting 27-year-old catcher). They’ll continue to insist that their “plan” to hold the starters back in spring training was a swell idea. They aren’t going to come clean and tell you that the Dustin Pedroia comeback should have included a longer stay in the minors. And on Tuesday they wouldn’t admit that keeping Swihart instead of Leon to start the season was a mistake. No. This sudden switch was just something they decided to do because . . . well, it was time. Oh, they want you to know that this was not a result of complaints from starting pitchers.

Perhaps it’s time for Larry Lucchino’s CEO title to be restored to the Boston masthead so the Sox can blame this hideous start on evil Larry.
 

nattysez

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As much as I hate to say it, nothing in that long second paragraph strikes me as debatable.
 

joe dokes

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Is Shaughnessy wrong? This team sucks right now.
Its not that he's wrong. Its that he "asking" for something that no team does ("admit they were wrong."). Or, they *did* admit it, in Swihart's case, by doing something different. But Dan wants words, not deeds. Which is the opposite of how it should be. (Unless Dan thinks the Catholic Church approach to sex abuse -- words, not deeds -- is the right way to do it).

And the starters may have been a "swell idea." It just didn't work. Those are vastly different things, and if Shaughnessy wasn't competing with mouth breathing talk radio or if he wasn't the laziest employed guy around, he'd write the story of how they were wrong. Instead, he writes a story about how the Sox wont admit they were wrong.

Teams lose 1000 games year after year and say "we're on the right road," not "god we suck."
 

TheoShmeo

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I agree with Joe's take.

Meaning yeah, a lot of things haven't worked but it's not as if the Sox were sniffing glue and just put their fingers in the air. Shit doesn't always work out and, as noted, why on earth would DD or AC give this long confessional about how dumb they were or are? What's to gain?

Dan's tone is so bitter. It's as if he wants us all take up pitch forks and attack the group that won a WS last year. He recently referenced something about Bruins fans holding their team accountable (implying that the rest of us don't). Umm, by and large, the same people who root for the Bs root for the other three teams. I half expected a sentence or two like: "And they wont even admit that they should have known that Mookie Betts would start the season in the same funk at the plate that we saw in October. Is this Charles Steinberg's fault, too?"

Two more things. One, I share his view that LL has been unfairly singled out. As if any of his key decisions and moves were not discussed in advance with Henry and Werner. But give it a rest, Dan. You've made that point repeatedly and when a reader as sympathetic as me to that notion to is fed up, you know that you've gone well into the overuse of "swell" category. And two, getting rid of Nieves and Davis (and Farrell, for that matter) were positive moves, asswipe. Yes, they needed a change of approach and yes, they won 119 games in the very next season. Reference fail there, Danno.
 

dcmissle

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Nobody admits anything in April because April is too early to admit anything.

If things remain this bad a month from now, that’s another matter.

Love how he protects his guy Lucchino.
 

BJBSJ

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Lucchino was probably Shank’s primary source back in the gorilla suit days. That line was a back rub.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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That's an excellent point. I'm sure Larry was leaking to Dan like crazy when he wanted to score points against Theo.

Does any fan even think about Lucchino at all these days? Theo's gone, Larry's gone, it's a new regime now.

No one gives a shit, Dan.

In a side note, when was it that Shank scored his kids internships with the Sox? Was that under Harrington?
 
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joyofsox

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Today's column begins:
NEW YORK — Are we nearing the end for Dustin Pedroia?

No one takes any pleasure in this prospect. But there was a sense of doom and gloom when Pedroia was taken out of the lineup after flying to right field in the top of the second inning Wednesday night at Yankee Stadium.
Only the CHB would feel the need to include that second sentence, lest anyone think he's taking glee from all aspects of this shitty start.
 

TheoShmeo

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Dan takes aim at the Pats for not including Parcells on the ballot for their HOF.


Parcells was of course great in NE. He begot BB, among other big things. But he also plotted his exit in the two weeks before a SB, a truly unforgivable betrayal. Maybe those pats never could’ve beaten those packers but does anyone think that the reports about the jets helped their chances? Could it have been a distraction on any level? Parcells preached “no I in team” and then was all about I when it should have been only team. Oh, and the 3 candidates this year are all totally deserving. They have been every year. It’s always a little sad to me to think about the two greats who didn’t make it. Parcells can wait. Or never get in.
 

TheoShmeo

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Parcells was LB coach for 1 year and HC for 3-4 years I think. Is that long enough to make the teams HOF?
I think that sells him short. He changed things. He made them credible. They went to a SB. He brought Bill Belichick in and that paved the way for his return.

But he also F’d them in the ass, and did it hard and at the worst time.

And it’s not as if the Pats don’t have a long list of deserving candidates who are not yet in.
 
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He went to other organizations and changed them too. NYJ, Dallas, and Miami. They all became dumpster fires again after he left. BB made the Patriots what they are today.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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If Parcells and Bledsoe never showed up, the Pats would be getting ready for their 25th season in St. Louis. Even before Bledsoe, Parcells brought instant credibility to a franchise that needed it badly.

Is Parcells an ego maniac dickhead? Of course he is, he’s a football coach. Do I like him for what he did at the Super Bowl? Of course not. He acted like a hypocritical princess. But Kraft wasn’t great in this whole saga either.

But what he did for the franchise is immeasurable and Kraft (assuming it his him who has the final say) should get over it already. He won. He’s been the steward of a team that has seen its national profile explode, not to mention six (and counting) Super Bowl championships.

You can’t tell the history of the New England Patriots without Bill Parcells. To try to do so is folly. Therefore, he should be in the Pats HoF.
 

BJBSJ

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Kraft had a lease agreement with the team through 2001 that essentially gave him control over its movement. They weren’t going to St. Louis, which is why Orthwein eventually sold. The rest of this is myth making. Maybe there’s a media good guy award they can bestow upon him instead, since it seems aging sportswriters are the primary carriers of his water.
 

scottyno

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Dan takes aim at the Pats for not including Parcells on the ballot for their HOF.


Parcells was of course great in NE. He begot BB, among other big things. But he also plotted his exit in the two weeks before a SB, a truly unforgivable betrayal. Maybe those pats never could’ve beaten those packers but does anyone think that the reports about the jets helped their chances? Could it have been a distraction on any level? Parcells preached “no I in team” and then was all about I when it should have been only team. Oh, and the 3 candidates this year are all totally deserving. They have been every year. It’s always a little sad to me to think about the two greats who didn’t make it. Parcells can wait. Or never get in.
Not sure of the rules for being on the ballot, but parcells has been a pats hof finalist at least once, bledsoe beat him out in 2011, it's not like the pats are being petty and ignoring him. Did Dan mention that or conveniently ignore it?
 

TheoShmeo

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If Parcells and Bledsoe never showed up, the Pats would be getting ready for their 25th season in St. Louis. Even before Bledsoe, Parcells brought instant credibility to a franchise that needed it badly.

Is Parcells an ego maniac dickhead? Of course he is, he’s a football coach. Do I like him for what he did at the Super Bowl? Of course not. He acted like a hypocritical princess. But Kraft wasn’t great in this whole saga either.

But what he did for the franchise is immeasurable and Kraft (assuming it his him who has the final say) should get over it already. He won. He’s been the steward of a team that has seen its national profile explode, not to mention six (and counting) Super Bowl championships.

You can’t tell the history of the New England Patriots without Bill Parcells. To try to do so is folly. Therefore, he should be in the Pats HoF.
Tying Parcells to the 6 titles with anything other than an indirect cord is fantasy.

Yes, he was critical in his time. But there were four Pumped and Jacked Years before BB came back. And Parcells didn’t exactly deliver Belichick. He fought it and extracted a draft pick.

It’s true that some of Parcells picks and players were on championship teams. But then again, the same is true of Dan Duquette and the 04 Sox, of course.

Bottom line, that the story of the Patriots has an important chapter called “Parcells” doesn’t mean that Big Bill belongs on the Pats HOF.

If it did, Chuck Fairbanks should be in there, too. And maybe Steve Grogan.

Again, look at the list of players who directly contributed to multiple championships who are not yet in. Once that list gets whittled down, a guy like Parcells could be considered.

In the end, I think his willingness to focus on his next move during those two weeks was so totally beyond the pale and unforgivable that I would deny him entry forever. But even without that perhaps extreme perspective, there are just so many more candidates whose actions were much more directly linked to the titles.
 

joe dokes

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Mentioning grogran and Fairbanks in the same paragraph as parcells in terms of the future direction of the franchise is . a ridiculous exercise that would injure a circus contortionist. Parcells stabilized the franchise and taught (for lack of a better word) Kraft some valuable football stuff. Grogan was a good QB and Fairbanks was a good coach.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'm surprised Grogan isn't in the Patriots HOF. One of my all-time favorite Patriots
 

TheoShmeo

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Mentioning grogran and Fairbanks in the same paragraph as parcells in terms of the future direction of the franchise is . a ridiculous exercise that would injure a circus contortionist. Parcells stabilized the franchise and taught (for lack of a better word) Kraft some valuable football stuff. Grogan was a good QB and Fairbanks was a good coach.
As is often the case, in your rush to snark it up, you miss the point entirely.

Parcells and Grogan both played important roles for the franchise. And for vastly different reasons, both are behind many players who are more deserving. (And I really love Grogan but just can’t put him above any of the guys who have been on the ballot over the last several years.)

There are big differences between Parcells and Grogan, you say? No shit. But the fact remains that the CHB is flat wrong in saying that it’s some kind of injustice to leave out a coach who put his own career interests ahead of optimal, fully focused preparation for the Super Bowl.
 

TheoShmeo

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I just look. Brogan is indeed in the Patriots HOF ... inducted in 1995.

So, once again, someone argues a point that was flawed from the beginning.
Guilty as charged re Grogan. The point remains re Parcells. Grogan was just an example, albeit a flawed one.

Hell, I’m glad he’s in.