C's pick Aaron Nesmith #14 overall

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I think most SOSHers would agree with you. I will note that Brad had said that he sees Romeo as a 10-year NBA player if he stays healthy.

It's interesting because their strengths are almost exactly opposite. AN is a great shooter, looks to have good vertical athleticism, but struggles with the other athletic aspects of the NBA (particularly lateral movement and, well, defense). It will be interesting to see how he does at the rim. OTOH, Romeo is super athletic laterally (more so than vertically), can definitely get to the rim and score, can defend multiple positions, but can't shoot yet.

One might think that there is more likelihood of Romeo refining his shot than Aaron getting quick enough to keep folks in front of him.

I'm super anxious to see Romeo back on the court if you couldn't tell.
I'm not really disagreeing with your point, but Nesmith doesn't need to become a lockdown defender to have a 10-year career as an NBA rotation player, if he's the lights-out shooter he's supposed to be. He just need to become a competent defender who's not a huge liability at that end of the floor.

That said, I too am eager to see Romeo back on the court.
 

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Not germane to Nesmith per se, but I was wonder who is the Player who scored the most pts in a game and then had a "Crappy" career. I guess Crappy would need to be defined as well. Maybe 82 Games played or less in their career?
 

nighthob

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Regardless of how you define crappy career the answer's almost certainly Acie Earl.
 

Jimbodandy

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Regardless of how you define crappy career the answer's almost certainly Acie Earl.
Yeah this is an easy answer.

He dropped 40 on us once, and I'd be willing to bet that guys on this board have played with or against better basketball players.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Right now I'll take Nesmith's career > Langford's career

Super small sample sizes and huge error bars still of course, but if I had to pick one I think I'd take Nesmith. Just didn't see much from Langford to be excited about, hope I'm wrong on that half of the take.
You can be right and Langford can still be good.

I'm just glad we don't have to pick. They really are completely different players but both would fit as the 3rd piece if Langford can shoot a little.
 

benhogan

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Right now I'll take Nesmith's career > Langford's career

Super small sample sizes and huge error bars still of course, but if I had to pick one I think I'd take Nesmith. Just didn't see much from Langford to be excited about, hope I'm wrong on that half of the take.
BOTH can play key roles around JayCrew. That's what matters at the end of the day. Neither has to be a star to positively impact the Celtics. Just solid rotational players with a daily improvement mindset.

Romeo as a defensive wing that can play the opponent's best offensive wing for meaningful minutes (giving JayCrew a defensive break). While attacking the opponent's worst defensive wing with his + handle.

Nesmith can be a + 3pt shooter that draws attention away from JayCrew. Also, can be an offensive bench option this team has lacked for years. Plus wingspan that could develop into a passable, switchable defender

Most importantly they need small but consistent regular-season minutes to get familiar with NBA speed (no redshirting or DNPs). They would barely impact a regular-season W/L record used this way, not that regular season, in the age of COVID, means much.

Either or both could be combined with the TPE over the next year to land a more developed star if an opportunity arises.
 

nighthob

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Wow, totally forgot about Terrence Ross and the fact he scored 51 points one time. That one does seem like the obvious winner. (It's weird that they put Rashard Lewis #7 though, he was a very good player and 2-time All-Star.)
I mean Ross has had a pretty good career as a roleplayer after being a number 8 pick in a pretty mediocre draft. As were most of the guys on that list. So far as I can tell Acie's still running away with this one. Running pigeon-toed, mind you. And pretty slowly. But he's still running away with it.
 

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Except that this quote is coming just as he’s getting more minutes over the past few games, including being one of the first off the bench in a close game.

The “always double down when you’re wrong” schtick is boring.
The quote came after he got minutes however Brad is clearly referring to when he wasn’t getting those minutes. He’s got the deer in headlights look tonight in his 1H minutes so far. Let’s see what Brad does in the 2H with him.

Edit: Quick hook by Brad to start the 2Q.
 
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lovegtm

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The quote came after he got minutes however Brad is clearly referring to when he wasn’t getting those minutes. He’s got the deer in headlights look tonight in his 1H minutes so far. Let’s see what Brad does in the 2H with him.

Edit: Quick hook by Brad to start the 2Q.
It must get tiring to move goalposts so often.
 

128

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It must get tiring to move goalposts so often.
HRB won't be happy until Nesmith is out of the league.

It's worth noting that Vassell, who was picked three spots ahead of Nesmith, was 1 for 5 from the floor (1 for 4 from beyond the arc) and a minus-7 in 15 minutes against Boston last nite.
 

TripleOT

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The quote came after he got minutes however Brad is clearly referring to when he wasn’t getting those minutes. He’s got the deer in headlights look tonight in his 1H minutes so far. Let’s see what Brad does in the 2H with him.

Edit: Quick hook by Brad to start the 2Q.
Did you notice how he never got the ball, and in frustration hoisted up a bad shot as soon as he finally touched it? Teague is trash.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Did you notice how he never got the ball, and in frustration hoisted up a bad shot as soon as he finally touched it? Teague is trash.
It’s like that kid on the playground who doesn’t show confidence when he gets the ball and is frozen out. I made a point to change to Celtics game during his 1Q rotation. He had three touched in 4 min before Brad sent someone to the scorers table after all three possessions ended horribly and didn’t return to the game.
 

shoelace

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There are no goalposts fo move. I never hold back from my evaluation of a player and this kid is lost right now.
To be fair, you did say this after the 2019 playoffs in the "Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks" thread:

If anything should be taken from this series is that acquiring Anthony Davis at the cost of Jayson Tatum is a necessity if you truly aspire to resch the Bucks class. It’s a top-tier talent league and we have way too much middling talent and not enough top-tier. I questioned Tatum’s touchness and upside in his thread several months ago......nothing has changed in that he still has too much Jeff Green and Rudy Gay in his game.
And then, of course, Tatum went on to be an All Star and 3rd team All-NBA the following season. And he's still getting better. I think this might be why you're getting your chops busted in this thread a bit.
 
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To be fair, you did say this after the 2019 playoffs in the "Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks" thread:



And then, of course, Tatum went on to be an All Star and 3rd team All-NBA the following season. And he's still getting better. I think this might be why you're getting your chops busted in this thread a bit.
I honestly don't know if you could be more off in an evaluation. Appreciate him not holding back though.
 

HomeRunBaker

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To be fair, you did say this after the 2019 playoffs in the "Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks" thread:



And then, of course, Tatum went on to be an All Star and 3rd team All-NBA the following season. And he's still getting better. I think this might be why you're getting your chops busted in this thread a bit.
At the time this is what I observed. I’m not results-oriented and certainly not correct anywhere close to 100% of the time. I’ve never once called Nesmith a bust. All I’ve said was that he has fallen way behind many others drafted after him and if a re-draft was held today he may not be a 1st rounder. This is a guy I was high on entering the draft too. Evaluations ARE about goalposts constantly moving as the player evolves or dies out of the league.
 

shoelace

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At the time this is what I observed. I’m not results-oriented and certainly not correct anywhere close to 100% of the time. I’ve never once called Nesmith a bust. All I’ve said was that he has fallen way behind many others drafted after him and if a re-draft was held today he may not be a 1st rounder. This is a guy I was high on entering the draft too. Evaluations ARE about goalposts constantly moving as the player evolves or dies out of the league.
I get where you're coming from. But don't these evaluations have to be tempered by context? How many of the guys who have played more and played better than Nesmith are on teams where they play the same position as an All NBA player, an All Defensive player, and a guy who is on pace to be an All Star minimally this season? I'm going to guess zero of them.

Most of them are on a bad teams. And even guys who are on playoff teams, like Wiseman, aren't playing in situations where they're behind multiple better players on the depth chart. I get the idea that if a young player is good, he'll earn minutes. It's one thing for James Wiseman to earn minutes over Kevon Looney. That's not really that impressive. Looney is a decent, rotational big. It's another for Nesmith to be taking minutes from Smart, Tatum or Brown.
 

lovegtm

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At the time this is what I observed. I’m not results-oriented and certainly not correct anywhere close to 100% of the time. I’ve never once called Nesmith a bust. All I’ve said was that he has fallen way behind many others drafted after him and if a re-draft was held today he may not be a 1st rounder. This is a guy I was high on entering the draft too. Evaluations ARE about goalposts constantly moving as the player evolves or dies out of the league.
Changing an evaluation of a player in response to facts changing is very different from getting those facts wrong, and then trying to pretend you didn't.

You're literally moving the goalposts with respect to the meaning of "moving the goalposts."
 

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I get where you're coming from. But don't these evaluations have to be tempered by context? How many of the guys who have played more and played better than Nesmith are on teams where they play the same position as an All NBA player, an All Defensive player, and a guy who is on pace to be an All Star minimally this season? I'm going to guess zero of them.

Most of them are on a bad teams. And even guys who are on playoff teams, like Wiseman, aren't playing in situations where they're behind multiple better players on the depth chart. I get the idea that if a young player is good, he'll earn minutes. It's one thing for James Wiseman to earn minutes over Kevon Looney. That's not really that impressive. Looney is a decent, rotational big. It's another for Nesmith to be taking minutes from Smart, Tatum or Brown.
This is a great post.

Now HRB's counterpoint will likely be that Nesmith should be taking minutes from Green and Semi, not the Js. However, that's still nonsense.

Anyone who has watched this team knows that Brad's rule is Belichickian in his "do your job" approach to actions and system, particularly on defense. If you're struggling to either recognize or remember the action or response to opponent action, and it's killing the team out there, you sit. Doesn't matter if you're the #3 pick like rookie Jaylen or even rookie Jayson occasionally. Doesn't matter if you're veteran Kanter or Thompson or developing RWill. Brad can stomach heat checks and the forced pass turnover or two. Brad will sit you for not implementing their coaching and making your teammates pay for your mistakes.

None of the above means jack shit as far as a guy's long term outlook as a player. All it means is that Nesmith is playing catchup mentally as a Celtics rookie with no offseason team activities. Hardly surprising.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I get where you're coming from. But don't these evaluations have to be tempered by context? How many of the guys who have played more and played better than Nesmith are on teams where they play the same position as an All NBA player, an All Defensive player, and a guy who is on pace to be an All Star minimally this season? I'm going to guess zero of them.

Most of them are on a bad teams. And even guys who are on playoff teams, like Wiseman, aren't playing in situations where they're behind multiple better players on the depth chart. I get the idea that if a young player is good, he'll earn minutes. It's one thing for James Wiseman to earn minutes over Kevon Looney. That's not really that impressive. Looney is a decent, rotational big. It's another for Nesmith to be taking minutes from Smart, Tatum or Brown.
I’m factoring more skill level and awareness that I’m seeing over the roster structure. One example is right here on the Celtics as Pritchard has had to share the ball with Tatum, Jaylen, Smart and sometimes even Teague while quickly adapting in becoming a quality rotation player. Yes, I’m aware he’s older/more mature and that factors too.

Outside of the C’s you can look at Anthony Edwards who has had a pretty horrific start to his career in virtually every part of the game that is being masked by his team losing while he puts up 15ppg. If Edwards were on the Celtics it would be even more glaring imo.


All it means is that Nesmith is playing catchup mentally as a Celtics rookie with no offseason team activities. Hardly surprising.
Which rookies had an advantage over Nesmith in the offseason? They all began the year on equal footing. I’m comparing him to the other (particularly one and done) rookies.....not to the other Celtics. What is it exactly that the Nesmith supporters are seeing out of him that has been impressive?
 
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tbb345

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This is a great post.

Now HRB's counterpoint will likely be that Nesmith should be taking minutes from Green and Semi, not the Js. However, that's still nonsense.

Anyone who has watched this team knows that Brad's rule is Belichickian in his "do your job" approach to actions and system, particularly on defense. If you're struggling to either recognize or remember the action or response to opponent action, and it's killing the team out there, you sit. Doesn't matter if you're the #3 pick like rookie Jaylen or even rookie Jayson occasionally. Doesn't matter if you're veteran Kanter or Thompson or developing RWill. Brad can stomach heat checks and the forced pass turnover or two. Brad will sit you for not implementing their coaching and making your teammates pay for your mistakes.

None of the above means jack shit as far as a guy's long term outlook as a player. All it means is that Nesmith is playing catchup mentally as a Celtics rookie with no offseason team activities. Hardly surprising.
At the risk of derailing the thread, I think what you posted is why a decent amount of people get frustrated with Brad (I know Ryan Bernardoni on twitter is one of the most vocal ones)
Because what you’re saying is true..but only to a certain extent and it’s almost always with young players.
The disastrous Kyrie year Brad stuck with Morris and Rozier through thick and thin. Both of them would miss rotations, jog up and down the court and would still get the same allotment of minutes. Meanwhile Brown would miss a rotation and get yanked right away.

Whether it’s right or wrong, personally I disagree with it but I get the rationale, Brad’s leash for veterans is a good deal longer than Brad’s leash for young players

EDIT: I’m getting PTSD even thinking About the Kyrie year. What an awful, unlikable mixture. I don’t think I will ever dislike another Celtics basketball player as much as I disliked Marcus Morris
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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It’s like that kid on the playground who doesn’t show confidence when he gets the ball and is frozen out. I made a point to change to Celtics game during his 1Q rotation. He had three touched in 4 min before Brad sent someone to the scorers table after all three possessions ended horribly and didn’t return to the game.
The three touches that AN had were momentary touches to time the offense where he passed the ball and then passed the ball back. I don't really consider them "touches."

AN and CE have the same problems that really JB had when he was in his first two years. When they are on the court, they get sent to the corner/wing and rarely get the ball in any kind of scoring opportunity unless one of the Big 4 (who handle the ball almost exclusively) drives and kicks or there is an offensive rebound or TO.

Romeo gets to play because he's really good on defense. AN and CE aren't that so don't get many minutes and don't get many touches when the starters are in. For example, CE did not get one opportunity to create offense of any kind when he was on the floor.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It’s like that kid on the playground who doesn’t show confidence when he gets the ball and is frozen out. I made a point to change to Celtics game during his 1Q rotation. He had three touched in 4 min before Brad sent someone to the scorers table after all three possessions ended horribly and didn’t return to the game.
The three touches that AN had were momentary touches to time the offense where he passed the ball and then passed the ball back. I don't really consider them "touches."

AN and CE have the same problems that really JB had when he was in his first two years. When they are on the court, they get sent to the corner/wing and rarely get the ball in any kind of scoring opportunity unless one of the Big 4 (who handle the ball almost exclusively) drives and kicks or there is an offensive rebound or TO.

Romeo gets to play because he's really good on defense. AN and CE aren't that so don't get many minutes and don't get many touches when the starters are in. For example, CE did not get one opportunity to create offense of any kind when he was on the floor.
 

tbb345

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I’m factoring more skill level and awareness that I’m seeing over the roster structure. One example is right here on the Celtics as Pritchard has had to share the ball with Tatum, Jaylen, Smart and sometimes even Teague while quickly adapting in becoming a quality rotation player. Yes, I’m aware he’s older/more mature and that factors too.

Outside of the C’s you can look at Anthony Edwards who has had a pretty horrific start to his career in virtually every part of the game that is being masked by his team losing while he puts up 15ppg. If Edwards were on the Celtics it would be even more glaring imo.




Which rookies had an advantage over Nesmith in the offseason? They all began the year on equal footing. I’m comparing him to the other (particularly one and done) rookies.....not to the other Celtics. What is it exactly that the Nesmith supporters are seeing out of him that has been impressive?
Nesmith was coming off of an injury, had more rust and less scrimmage time than almost every other rookie. He’s definitely playing catch up.
I don’t think he’s been impressive but it’s kind of ridiculous to suggest that your evaluation has changed meaningfully over such a small sample size
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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At the risk of derailing the thread, I think what you posted is why a decent amount of people get frustrated with Brad (I know Ryan Bernardoni on twitter is one of the most vocal ones)
Because what you’re saying is true..but only to a certain extent and it’s almost always with young players.
The disastrous Kyrie year Brad stuck with Morris and Rozier through thick and thin. Both of them would miss rotations, jog up and down the court and would still get the same allotment of minutes. Meanwhile Brown would miss a rotation and get yanked right away.

Whether it’s right or wrong, personally I disagree with it but I get the rationale, Brad’s leash for veterans is a good deal longer than Brad’s leash for young players
Young ballhanders seem to do much better in Brad's system than wings - I guess because it's guard friendly.
 

Jimbodandy

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At the risk of derailing the thread, I think what you posted is why a decent amount of people get frustrated with Brad (I know Ryan Bernardoni on twitter is one of the most vocal ones)
Because what you’re saying is true..but only to a certain extent and it’s almost always with young players.
The disastrous Kyrie year Brad stuck with Morris and Rozier through thick and thin. Both of them would miss rotations, jog up and down the court and would still get the same allotment of minutes. Meanwhile Brown would miss a rotation and get yanked right away.

Whether it’s right or wrong, personally I disagree with it but I get the rationale, Brad’s leash for veterans is a good deal longer than Brad’s leash for young players
That year was a fucking car crash, and Brad appropriately fell on his sword publicly over it. While we may disagree with the overall quick hook approach, seems to me that he's a lot more consistent about it now. I'm pretty sure that Thompson got a rest last night after a couple of bad possessions, and Jaylen still gets a hook every once in a while.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The three touches that AN had were momentary touches to time the offense where he passed the ball and then passed the ball back. I don't really consider them "touches."
This is not true at all. His first was when he put the ball on the floor but couldn’t turn the corner on his man as he shoveled the ball to TT in the lane who wasn’t expecting the pass as he was negotiating position for off board. The second was a missed 3 and the 3rd was a travel as he attempted to penetrate.
 

shoelace

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Which rookies had an advantage over Nesmith in the offseason? They all began the year on equal footing. I’m comparing him to the other (particularly one and done) rookies.....not to the other Celtics. What is it exactly that the Nesmith supporters are seeing out of him that has been impressive?
Not to speak for Jimbodandy, but I think his larger point is that Nesmith has a shorter leash in Brad's system than other young players do. So, yes, they all had the same offseason but not all rookies are playing in an environment where blowing a rotation or taking a bad shot leads to their immediately being benched. I agree that, with a few exceptions lately, he hasn't looked great out there. But there have been encouraging recent signs. That said if everyone stays healthy, and you see starting lineups like last night with Smart/Brown/Tatum as the 2/3/4, I don't really see his pathway to consistent minutes.

That year was a fucking car crash, and Brad appropriately fell on his sword publicly over it. While we may disagree with the overall quick hook approach, seems to me that he's a lot more consistent about it now. I'm pretty sure that Thompson got a rest last night after a couple of bad possessions, and Jaylen still gets a hook every once in a while.
He started Theis over Thompson last night as well, so I don't feel like he's falling over himself to appease guys just because they're more experienced or for bullshity "respect" reasons. Theis is better than Thompson, and Thompson should be coming off the bench generally. I think he evaluates and the team evaluate players differently than some Celtics twitter and blog people. He doesn't care about Rob Williams impressive block percentage or highlight reel dunks. He sees Robert Williams making mistakes on defense and that's why he plays Thompson and Theis more, because he feels like they are better team defenders and they gave the Celtics a better chance to win. If Robert Williams consistently, decisively outplays Thompson, I have no doubt that Brad will play him more. It just hasn't happened yet. That's certainly an easier road to minutes than the one Nesmith has.
 

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Now you're just trolling.
Shoelace captures the Nesmith things perfectly here, and I think that most of this is obvious to those of us who have watched Brad coach this Danny team for years now.

Sure HRB is trolling somewhat. But it's more about arguing on behalf of a belief that he has formed in concrete in his mind. Nesmith sucks, or Nesmith wasn't the guy that he wanted at 14, or something like that.

One of the things that I admire about a lot of the people here (yourself in particular, but many others) is a willingness to rethink one's opinion of a guy (or a trade or whatever) based on empirical evidence. Evolution, man. But lots of people here form an opinion of a guy and that's that. One of my beats-dead-horse tropes is throwing around "jury's still out on Bender" lines periodically, because people just couldn't own up to being dead wrong about the kid. The anti-Jaylen guys are still out there too. They're quiet, but they're still here in this forum, and we'll hear from them as soon as he finally puts up a 5-20 game with 6 turnovers. I'm not sure how much of this opinion-humping is sport vs. a refusal to evolve a position, but HRB is hardly alone in this space.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Now you're just trolling.
How so? Nesmith participated in training camp from Day One and had the opportunity for the same offseason workouts as every other rookie. He had a stress fracture in his foot in January and as a 1st round pick shut it down for the season.....he wasn’t in a body cast until November. Even Brad said in training camp that he expects Nesmith to be a quick learn.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is not true at all. His first was when he put the ball on the floor but couldn’t turn the corner on his man as he shoveled the ball to TT in the lane who wasn’t expecting the pass as he was negotiating position for off board. The second was a missed 3 and the 3rd was a travel as he attempted to penetrate.
You're correct - I thought he touched the ball in the offense but that was CE every time. Still, here are the offensive plays when he was in the game:
  • (Entered approximately 5:14 remaining)
  • JB drive and shot
  • MS drive and TO
  • JB 3
  • MS brings ball up and takes 3
  • (time out)
  • MS and TT PnR - SAS foul, ball on side
  • MS and JB two-man passing leads to shot clock violation
  • MS passes to JB for 3
  • (Teague and Green in: 1:58 remaining)
  • AN drive and kick to TT (as you note)
  • AN 3 / Offensive Rebound / pass to AN and traveling (as you note)
  • JT shot
  • JT shot
My point being that he was in for 11 possessions and touched the ball on 2 of them. He didn't touch the ball at all for the first 3 minutes - and almost all - of his five-minute stint. It's a hard system to play in as a young wing. You can do what CE did and just not hoist up any shots or you can do what AN did and force one's offense when he gets the ball (although the 3 was a decent shot and the traveling was probably the correct idea but incorrect execution).
 

NomarsFool

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He sees Robert Williams making mistakes on defense and that's why he plays Thompson and Theis more, because he feels like they are better team defenders and they gave the Celtics a better chance to win. If Robert Williams consistently, decisively outplays Thompson, I have no doubt that Brad will play him more. It just hasn't happened yet.
However, we all know (and I think Stevens has also acknowledged this) that W-L in the regular season isn't all THAT important. Development is also super important - because there is essentially no practice, and guys don't get better just sitting on the bench and riding in airplanes. From a long-term perspective, it is really important for the Celtics to be able to evaluate what they have in RWIII, and in my opinion, he's the Celtics best hope of having a big that can be - maybe not elite - but really good. Right now we have Theis who is reliably good, Thompson who is reliably mediocre, and RWIII who has moments of "really good" and moments of "not so good".

Theis is clearly the best big we have right now in terms of overall play (offensive and defense). I have a hard time seeing that TT is demonstrably better than RWIII (similar rebounding, better offensive play from TL, defense and other stuff seems like a wash to me - but willing to even cede TT a small advantage). Why does RWIII need to "decisively outplay" TT and not the other way around to earn minutes?
 

TripleOT

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This is not true at all. His first was when he put the ball on the floor but couldn’t turn the corner on his man as he shoveled the ball to TT in the lane who wasn’t expecting the pass as he was negotiating position for off board. The second was a missed 3 and the 3rd was a travel as he attempted to penetrate.
Did you notice the disastrous PG play when AN got his minutes?
 

shoelace

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Why does RWIII need to "decisively outplay" TT and not the other way around to earn minutes?
It seems clear that Brad wants young players to develop good habits, especially on defense, and makes them earn minutes by playing team defense well. The team is struggling enough already on the defensive end, so I don't think Brad will or should be benching Thompson if he feels like Thompson is more consistent defensively than TL. I realize some posters want to prioritize development because they feel like playoff seeding doesn't matter as much with no fans. I don't know if I grant that premise, and I doubt that Brad feels the same way.

But, regardless, even if we are to assume that is true, the team needs to lock in defensively if they want to be successful in the playoffs in this current iteration. None of Brown, Tatum or Kemba get to the free throw line in the same way that elite players on other playoff contenders do. They need to shoot well to win. And if they don't shoot well, they need to shut the other team down defensively, which they have been able to do in the past. They haven't shown that ability consistently this season. Building that defensive chemistry on the court is way more important than, like, feeding Tacko Fall minutes to see if he can be anything more than a gimmick player.

Also, the February schedule for the Celtics is brutal. They're going to be playing constantly and so guys will get banged up and guys will miss games due to contact tracing inevitably, so these developmental minutes will come for guys like TL. There's no need to force them minutes at this point.
 
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Jimbodandy

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You're right, it was a game thready drive-by post. Mea Culpa.
Does this sound less stupid?
Yes a little.

Fwiw, I also called out HRB for being obstinate on Nesmith and not recognizing that minutes in Brad's system isn't an indicator of future performance.

I thought that throwing Fultz around as a knock on Fultz or Nesmith was off base for a number of reasons, including poor taste. Probably shouldn't take that stuff so seriously, so sorry if the response was too over the top.
 
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mauf

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Bummed that I missed the food fight. :)

Nesmith has obviously done nothing to win over folks who didn’t like the pick in the first place. The tight schedule and COVID Issues, as well as Pritchard’s strong start, have only amplified Nesmith’s struggles. But rookies are presumptively useless. I fundamentally disagree with HRB that Nesmith wouldn’t be a 1st rounder in a redraft held today; he’s been leap-frogged by a few people drafted after him who have been surprisingly good, one of whom happens to be on his own team, but I don’t think early-season performance as a rookie is predictive enough to trigger a wholesale reevaluation of Nesmith’s potential.
 

Devizier

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I don't see what's wrong about saying that 1) Nesmith hasn't shown much so far, 2) most players drafted after the high lottery don't succeed in the NBA, and 3) there's nowhere near enough information to conclusively say what lies in Nesmith's future?
 

nighthob

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Everyone agrees on points one and two, it's point three where the disconnect lies with people wanting to declare him a bust already. San Antonio's Keldon Johnson is a pretty similar player, and he seems to be working out for them. Nesmith has a better shooting stroke, though, so he has a higher ceiling. I don't think anyone has been anointing him a future star, just someone that can add shooting to the second unit lineups.
 

chilidawg

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Everyone agrees on points one and two, it's point three where the disconnect lies with people wanting to declare him a bust already. San Antonio's Keldon Johnson is a pretty similar player, and he seems to be working out for them. Nesmith has a better shooting stroke, though, so he has a higher ceiling. I don't think anyone has been anointing him a future star, just someone that can add shooting to the second unit lineups.
I'm not sure I see the similarity to Johnson. He's a guy who is excellent at attacking the rim, and seems to have a much more mature, physical build than Nesmith. He's impressed Pop enough to be leading the team in minutes played, despite having a terrible On-Off. He'll be an interesting one to watch.
 

nighthob

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Johnson worked on his attack game because his shot wasn’t good enough for higher levels. His release wasn’t quick, but against the AAU competition it wasn’t a problem. At draft time the fear was that the jumper wouldn’t translate (it hasn’t yet) and the lack of lateral quickness would make him a mediocre defender at best. So he was an iffy proposition as a 3&D player.

Nesmith has gawdawful defensive footwork, that needs to be worked on next offseason. The shot’s slow, but quick enough to translate. Especially given that Boston doesn’t need him to be third option, just provide shooting for the second unit lineups. Anyway, the upshot is that he has a better jumper, and for now I’d say the higher ceiling (whether he ever hits it I can’t say).
 

Imbricus

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One thing on footwork: Wouldn't that be one of the easiest things to correct? If a guy doesn't slide his feet, just show him how to slide his feet in front of a defender, then make him run through drills, practicing it. Unless he's physically really slow (and Nesmith doesn't seem that way), is this more than a bad habit? Semi has figured how to do this, and he doesn't have the highest b-ball IQ. Or am I missing something? Anyone ever studied why some NBA guys do this well, and others don't? It can't be just innate quickness.