Conference Realignment Thread

[Butch Hobsons elbo chips]

In addition to facilities, geographic locations have a lot to do with certain Olympic sports and who is generally successful nationally. Warm weather sports geberally have more success in the Southern regions and in the West Coast (california). Baseball, Softball, Tennis & Golf players want to be in environments conducive for more year round play.

Women's Cross-Country just had Villanova replace Georgetown as the new #1 team in the country last week. But they isn't surprising as they both finished 1st & 2nd last year in the NCAA Championship as Villanova has won the last 2 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS bringing their total to NINE NCAA Women's X-country Team Championships. Villanova is currently #1, Providence is #2 and Georgetown slipped to #5 this week and ND is 25th.

Men's Cross-country currently has Georgetown, Villanova and Providence in Top 24 in the country. Providence dominated the Conference championships for much of the BE history. BE Conference championship Totals: Providence 15, Notre Dame 5, Georgetown 6, Villanova 3.

Marquette is transitioning to Varisty to become the 6th Varsity Men's Lacrosse programs from the private Catholic schools in an NCAA recognized Conference. The ACC, SEC, and Big XII do not have NCAA recognized Conferences and none recieve an official NCAA bid to the postseason tournament.
The ACC with the addition of Syracuse and Rutgers could then apply for recognition from the NCAA. As talented as the 4 current ACC LAX teams are, they need a minimum of 6 varsity teams to become recognized as a NCAA approved Conference. The majority of the ACC doesn't care about LAX and never will. The 2 SEC schools that bother to field a team play in ConfUSA. The BIG XII has zero LAX and has it several spots below Varsity "NASCAR" as a sport to add to their line-up.

Women's Lax had Big East member Loyala-MD ranked #7 and they won the 2011 BE Tournament last year and reached NCAA quarterfinals. Georgetown was the regular season champion and finished #19. Notre Dame was ranked #26
Georgetown won the 2010 BE tournament.
ND won the 2009 BE tournament.

Baseball & Softball are warm weather sports but ND has done well in both sports in recent years and other catholic schools have also remained competitive. 18 of the 27 Big East tournament Baseball Champions have been Catholic schools with St Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova and Notre Dame winning multiple championships. St Johns won the 2010 Tournament and Seton Hall won the 2011 BE tournament.

Depaul Softball #29 was ranked close to ND #23 in the top 30 last year as all 8 of the BE Catholic schools sponser a softball program. ND & DePaul finished 1st and 2nd in the BE regular season but got knocked out by Syracuse in the 2011 BE tournament. The Catholic schools have won 9 out of the last 13 BE softtball tournaments with ND(6), Seton Hall (2) and DePaul (1).

ND & Villanova have won 19 out of the last 20 BE Women's Swimming & Diving Championships.
Men's Swimming & Diving has been dominated by PITT, Louisville and ND. Pitt actually has 19 BE Championships total and ND has 4 and Louisville has won the last 2 BE Championships.

INDOOR and OUTDOOR Track for both Men & Women have involved Villanova, ND & Georgetown in the top group of Big East competitors for many years and they are still very strong today.

Men & Women's Conference Tennis Championships has been a ND mainstay for a rather weak BIG EAST showing nationally for most of the decade since Miami left the conference. Only Louisville even appears in last year's Men's rankings at #24. And only ND at #20 was in the Women's rankings. Tennis is not exactly a geographic drawing point of the Big East.

ND doesnt sponser Field Hockey and there is only 6 teams left in the BE after Syracuse departs with Nova, Gorgetown & Providence as the only non-football schools.

In a couple of these olympic sports, it's easy to see that possibility of partners such as Army & Navy as candidates to become Associate Members. The walking dead Patriot League is near collaspe (It's clear even to the people in their home office that they will fracture at the end of 2012 football season with the departure of Lehigh, Colgate and ghost member Fordham to the world of FCS Football scholarships.) If the academies can find a place to park their marginal Basketball programs, they may be possible LAX, Soccer, Baseball, Softball, Rowing additions to a rebooted Big East. Many of the Academy women athletes are built like a brick house in some of these sports from their military conditioning and would benefit a rebooted Big East in some olympic sports. The Academy's Mens LAX could bring BE Lacrosse to at least 8 teams in a very competitive League.
Football is not in the equation as Army is very reluctant to join a football conference and Navy was still considering Football options with the BE situation blowing up probably ending that idea.

 

[JMDurron]

-- Perhaps the country's most enduring rivalry is Alabama-Auburn. Will Auburn willingly move to the East division? If not, can the SEC force them to move?

The SEC's divisional alignment will have no impact on the Iron Bowl. It's actually legislatively mandated (the state legislature "encouraged" the two schools to start playing each other again in 1947, after a 40-year hiatus due to disagreements over logistics/expenses), and since Auburn has no issues maintaining an annual rivalry game with Georgia, nor does Alabama with Tennessee, there wouldn't be any problems with moving Auburn to the East. Instead of Georgia being an annual cross-divisional rivalry game for Auburn, it would be Alabama. Florida might try to pass a new rule outlawing field goals, but otherwise I don't think there would be much complaining from anybody about Auburn moving to the East.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Big East last night met to talk about raising the exit fees. When other conferences add teams, they sign TV deals and raise exit fees, to increase stability. When the Big East added TCU, they turned down a TV deal and wait 9 months and three defections later to talk about raising exit fees. None of the football schools are going to vote for it (except USF). Beebe>Marinatto

I saw this posted elsewhere -

I liken it to focusing on suing the driver who hits a man on the street before you try to give the man the medical treatment he’ll need to survive. He might die richer from that, but he’ll die much sooner.

 

[Go Big Red Sox]

OU/Texas is played early in the season, creating the chance for matchups of zero loss non-conference teams. From Nebraska's relevant Big 8 years from the early 60s to the 90s, they and Oklahoma consistently battled for 30+ years for conference and national title contention. Sure, good non-conference games are fun, but further relevancy was created by the Big 12. It's ridiculous to think that Nebraska/OU game, on the last day of the year, wasn't more significant for those years than OU/Texas.

 

[Butch Hobsons elbo chips]

USF is like Mayo in "An Officer & a Gentleman". They "got no where else to go!!"



I'd hate to see Conference USA football programs calling the shots on a merger with leftover BIG EAST Football schools. Because then UCF will be the one deciding on whether to allow USF to join them. ouch. :c070:

 

[Infield Infidel]

I wonder if the Big East wasn't called the "Big East" if they'd be more open to other moves.

Looks like they are looking at UCF and Temple in all sports, and Boise, Air Force and Navy in Football only. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7082348/air-force-falcons-exploring-options-other-sports-football-joins-big-east

I still think they should just merge with the Mountain West and have a conf championship game. Or disappear completely, which would totally suck for USF and possibly Cinci and Rutgers.

 

[BigMike]

I wonder if the Big East wasn't called the "Big East" if they'd be more open to other moves.

Looks like they are looking at UCF and Temple in all sports, and Boise, Air Force and Navy in Football only. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7082348/air-force-falcons-exploring-options-other-sports-football-joins-big-east

I still think they should just merge with the Mountain West and have a conf championship game. Or disappear completely, which would totally suck for USF and possibly Cinci and Rutgers.

I agree, take in Temple and UCF, and then do a football only merger with the Mountain West, which has the conference title game for a BCS bid

 

[RedOctober3829]

Hofstra's president(who is the head of the CAA President's Council) has reached out to Boston University, Charlotte, GW, and Richmond about joining the league when the shakeup reaches their level.

Thamel

 

[mauf]

It sure looks to me like the momentum is building in the opposite direction. Back around 2000, there was serious discussion about ND going to the Big Ten. Now, all the talk appears to be about the XII and ACC. And Jack Swarbrick isn't talking about "the economic case", he's talking about things like the institution's values.

When you get down to brass tacks, there's no difference between "values" and "follow the money." I'm sure the Holy Cross fathers wouldn't consider turning down millions of dollars annually that could be spent on financial aid, buildings, faculty and so on just to improve the basketball and lacrosse teams.

Imo, the same reasoning will push them away from Independent football at some point in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Infield Infidel]

TCU officially in the Big 12.

I'm going to needle the Texas folks here a bit. It's funny that the Texas folks here don't praise this move. There's no one who could join that's better within a two-state radius of Texas. Arkansas's not coming back. No one from the Big 10 or SEC would go. So who? Tulane? Memphis? New Mexico? Air Force? Colorado St? BYU is the closest comparable move and that move apparently has some hiccups going, but might happen anyway.

It's hard for me to view Texas fans frowning on this move as anything more than passive contempt at more in-state competition. I understand the media market/footprint argument, which makes it not impossible to view contempt at this move as genuine. If it was all about stretching conference footprint and media markets, then why no calls for, say, USF? Texas' biggest in-state rival left, and an arguably better program, with back-to-back BCS bids, a terrific coach who's in it for the long haul*, and gagillions in new renovations, took their place. Shouldn't you want your conference to be as good as possible?

edit-*I actually think the one instance Patterson would leave TCU is to replace Mack. And I don't think anyone would or should blame him

 

[Infield Infidel]

Is Missouri a bridesmaid again?

SEC leaders met Monday for their regularly scheduled fall meeting but took no action on expansion.

The SEC says in a statement that the presidents and chancellors "discussed a wide range of issues dealing with the changing landscape of intercollegiate athletics" but didn't make any moves on expansion.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7084501/southeastern-conference-board-meets-takes-no-action-expansion

 

[ethangl]

It's funny that the Texas folks here don't praise this move.

Yeah, I can't imagine why Texas fans would be a little preoccupied this week. Quickly, somebody find some straw men!

It's hard for me to view Texas fans frowning on this move as anything more than passive contempt at more in-state competition.

Whew, that was close!

If it was all about stretching conference footprint and media markets, then why no calls for, say, USF?

Far be it from me to get between a man and his lazily constructed weltanschauung, but prior to this week there was a fair amount of discussion calling for consideration of USF on Texas boards. I don't know if you can see this:

http://texas.rivals....&SearchSite=902

You can't read the thread -- it is maybe 70/30 for/against. Rivals' boards suck and only keep posts for 24 hours, so you'll just have to trust me that there was more about a week ago.

 

[loshjott]

As someone who has been following this peripherally, I have a question.

Why hasn't Boise State been in the conversation to join a BCS conference? I would think they'd love it from a football perspective. Is it because they have nothing to offer a conference other than a football team that, for the moment anyway, would beat up on 2/3 of any non-SEC BCS conference?

Just wondering.

 

[BigMike]

As someone who has been following this peripherally, I have a question.

Why hasn't Boise State been in the conversation to join a BCS conference? I would think they'd love it from a football perspective. Is it because they have nothing to offer a conference other than a football team that, for the moment anyway, would beat up on 2/3 of any non-SEC BCS conference?

Just wondering.

Well they have been mentioned at least somewhat in Big 12 discussions; although seems like they are not seriously considered. They are also being mentioned in Big East discussions

BSU is a small market team, and a very long distance away from anyone

 

[Infield Infidel]

Yeah, I can't imagine why Texas fans would be a little preoccupied this week. Quickly, somebody find some straw men!

I think you should read this thread more carefully and apologize to Krem. He's a nice guy and as far as I know not made of straw.

Blech. Don't care for the TCU invite at all. Recycling the SWC. Medium-sized private school In a market that the conference already dominates. Only strong in football recently. If Patterson ever leaves it's Baylor v 2.0. Would have preferred a larger state school in a new market, or BYU.

Oh well. When Missouri leaves we can get someone better.

Sorry I didn't quote a this post that was a bit upthread, but um, we all get, i don't know, preoccupied.

 

[ethangl]

I think you should read this thread more carefully and apologize to Krem. He's a nice guy and as far as I know not made of straw.


Sorry I didn't quote a this post that was a bit upthread, but um, we all get, i don't know, preoccupied.

So one guy represents a half million living alumni. Okay.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Again, a little reading comprehension goes a long way

TCU officially in the Big 12.

I'm going to needle the Texas folks here a bit. It's funny that the Texas folks here don't praise this move. There's no one who could join that's better within a two-state radius of Texas. Arkansas's not coming back. No one from the Big 10 or SEC would go. So who? Tulane? Memphis? New Mexico? Air Force? Colorado St? BYU is the closest comparable move and that move apparently has some hiccups going, but might happen anyway.

But since you were preoccupied, i'll ask, do you like this move?

Far be it from me to get between a man and his lazily constructed weltanschauung, but prior to this week there was a fair amount of discussion calling for consideration of USF on Texas boards. I don't know if you can see this:

http://texas.rivals....&SearchSite=902

You can't read the thread -- it is maybe 70/30 for/against. Rivals' boards suck and only keep posts for 24 hours, so you'll just have to trust me that there was more about a week ago.

I was able to see the thread title but naught else. I'll take you word for it. But even as a USF fan, I seriously doubt we are going anywhere but thar-be-dragons territory. USF is the definition of run-of-the-mill, has minimal fanbase and national cred, and is pretty far away. The only reason USF is in the Big East (and thus AQ) is because the Big East needed a school in Florida after Miami left. UCF stunk, I think USF had beaten a ranked TCU or Louisville team, and Mike Tranghese may or may not have been sober. The Big 12 absolutely does not need a school in Florida. (I'd obviously be all for it though. )

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

Wait - what? Am I the good guy or the bad guy here? Sheesh.

As I said upthread, I (notice the use of the first person singular pronoun here) don't care for the addition of TCU because it doesn't add a lot to the conference. TCU is a medium-sized private school with limited resources and a small alumni base. Academically average. Small stadium. Geographically good for travel but bad for adding new markets. Etc. It's not bad or evil, but it just doesn't add much, especially if for whatever reason Patterson leaves and the program slides into mediocrity. The conference would in my view benefit from the addition of larger schools that are geographically at least somewhat proximate (so I don't think USF is a good fit). Travel is an issue for fans, and historically Texas has very few games that are far from home, which would make the addition of a program like USF something of an issue. I understand why they added TCU, but I don't think it makes a huge difference to the conference's quality. As far as I know (which is basically nothing - just the crap I read on this and Texas boards, which have proven to be universally wrong about everything on this topic), the Big XII is looking at many options for expansion to get back to 12 teams, but there is a limited number of choices out there. Wouldn't be surprised by anything at this point.

 

[ethangl]

Again, a little reading comprehension goes a long way

That's hardly better any better -- you're taking one post and projecting it on me and the half-dozen (austex, booger, bosoxen, westmass, canderson, bballsomething, who am I missing?) or so other UT fans on here, most of whom are not even posting in this thread in the first place.

But since you were preoccupied, i'll ask, do you like this move?

Yes.

Putting conference affiliation aside -- just purely from a competitive standpoint, anytime you have a historically pedestrian program on the upswing, you have to be concerned about their ability to maintain coaching continuity long-term. Your concern is how TCU will fare post-Patterson. Using Utah and Lousiville as an example, Utah made the right hire after Meyer left (stlll, they are experiencing a great deal of competitive difficulty in transitioning into the PAC12) -- whereas Louisville pretty much immediately fell apart when Bobby Petrino left. Betting on TCU over the long term is risky.

What mitigates this concern is that I don't think there is any risk of Patterson leaving any time soon, and this whole thing is going to get turned upside-down in about 4 years anyway.

 

[AgentOrange]

It's a terrible move for the conference. People tend to get too hung up in the recent success a program has had in evaluating a move like this. Short term, they'll probably be pretty strong. Long term, they're a small private school that can't reasonably be expected to be anywhere near as strong post-Patterson.

Two, they bring nothing in terms of TV. Texas already owns Dallas.

Three, there's the very real possibility that they will attempt to latch onto UT ala Tech when the Big 12 finally implodes in a few years.

Fourth, It's perfectly reasonable for Texas to look out for its recruiting by not elevating another in-state school. The SEC schools all have the ability to veto the addition of schools in their state (and there's no way that South Carolina wouldn't block Clemson or UF block FSU). That's just good business.

Fifth, their fans are annoying and have a Aggie-esque (though obviously not as extreme) little brother type obsession with Texas.

 

[Senator Donut]

It's a terrible move for the conference. People tend to get too hung up in the recent success a program has had in evaluating a move like this. Short term, they'll probably be pretty strong. Long term, they're a small private school that can't reasonably be expected to be anywhere near as strong post-Patterson.

I think your opinion of TCU as a flash in the pan is simplistic analysis. Despite their small size, they have a commitment to athletics that rivals most flagship state institutions. Take a look at the top 25 schools in football expenditures according to the Department of Education's database.

College Football Expenses

Ohio State University-Main Campus	$31,763,036
The University of Alabama	$31,118,134
University of Notre Dame	$29,490,788
Auburn University Main Campus	$27,911,713
Louisiana State University and Agricultural & Mechanical College	$25,566,520
The University of Texas at Austin	$25,112,331
University of Florida	$24,457,557
University of South Carolina-Columbia	$22,794,211
University of Wisconsin-Madison	$22,041,491
University of Arkansas	$22,005,104
University of Southern California	$20,820,468
Texas Christian University	$20,609,361
University of Oklahoma Norman Campus	$20,150,769
Pennsylvania State University-Main Campus	$19,780,939
Rutgers University-New Brunswick	$19,494,263
University of Washington-Seattle Campus	$19,207,560
University of California-Berkeley	$18,519,523
University of Iowa	$18,468,732
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor	$18,328,233
University of Georgia	$18,308,654
University of Oregon	$18,071,012
Arizona State University	$17,977,987
Boston College	$17,973,705
University of Miami	$17,863,218
University of Nebraska-Lincoln	$17,843,849

Besides the awkward full name of LSU, what stands out to me is TCU at #11. It is clear to me that TCU's recent run of success was not the result of hitting the lottery when they hired Patterson as coach, but the culmination of an effort to return the Horned Frogs to the elite of college football. Sure there is a lot of luck involved when hiring an up and coming coach like Patterson, but to be able to maintain him despite being a hot commodity on the coaching market is a direct result of the work the university has done. TCU has competed at the level of a BCS college football conference back when the SWC existed and it is ready to do so again.

 

[AgentOrange]

No, it's your analysis that is simplistic. Money is necessary but not sufficient for success in college football. Otherwise Rutgers ( barely outspent by TCU) wouldn't consistently suck.

We'll see what the move to the Big 12 does for TCU, but right now they lack the recruiting cachet. They're a distant third in the hearts and minds of DFW recruits behind Texas and OU, and that town ain't big enough for the three of us.

 

[Infield Infidel]

What jumps out to me are the private schools on that list. Superficially, TCU has a bit in common with ND and BC because of the religion angle, but I think TCU has more in common with USC and Miami.

Like USC and Miami, TCU is the top private school in a highly-populated, recruiting-rich state. All three are in the #1 markets in their respective states. Although each has two or more larger state schools to compete with, these are all big states and there are plenty of players to go around. The only reason they haven't been top shelf is because they weren't in an AQ league. There is a lot of potential going forward at TCU.

Mitigating this is that TCU is the smallest private school on the list, but only 2k less than ND, 4K less than Miami and about quarter the size of USC (Damn USC is huge, 36k). TCU has over $1 billion endowment though, which is huge per student.

Also, Patterson is only 51, he could be there 10 or 15 years and be what Schnelly was to Miami or John Robinson was to USC.

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

Short term, .... Long term, ....

Apologies for hacking your quote, but to make it NCAA universal - is (or should be) Long Term even a consideration factor any longer for any of this conference alignment bs?!

The play seems move to grab $$ now, where you can. Across the board.

 

[SumnerH]

College Football Expenses

1. Ohio State University-Main Campus	$31,763,036
2. The University of Alabama	$31,118,134
3. University of Notre Dame	$29,490,788
4. Auburn University Main Campus	$27,911,713
5. Louisiana State University and Agricultural & Mechanical College	$25,566,520
6. The University of Texas at Austin	$25,112,331
7. University of Florida	$24,457,557
8. University of South Carolina-Columbia	$22,794,211
9. University of Wisconsin-Madison	$22,041,491
10. University of Arkansas	$22,005,104
11. University of Southern California	$20,820,468
12. Texas Christian University	$20,609,361

Besides the awkward full name of LSU, what stands out to me is TCU at #11.

OCD nitpick: TCU is #12.

 

[Senator Donut]

No, it's your analysis that is simplistic. Money is necessary but not sufficient for success in college football. Otherwise Rutgers ( barely outspent by TCU) wouldn't consistently suck.

We'll see what the move to the Big 12 does for TCU, but right now they lack the recruiting cachet. They're a distant third in the hearts and minds of DFW recruits behind Texas and OU, and that town ain't big enough for the three of us.

I think Rutgers is making my point. This was a school which was the laughingstock of the Big East with a 1-11 record in 2002, had a remarkable breakout season, but has stagnated recently finishing in the middle of the pack in a AQ conference. With the facility upgrades coming soon they'll be in position to secure a Big Ten invite if another round of expansion comes. Like TCU it is in a major media market.

Being third in the state of Texas is not much to overcome, much like Florida has enough talent to support three marquee programs. It's plenty big for the three of you.

 

[WestMassExpat]

I think Rutgers is making my point. This was a school which was the laughingstock of the Big East with a 1-11 record in 2002, had a remarkable breakout season, but has stagnated recently finishing in the middle of the pack in a AQ conference. With the facility upgrades coming soon they'll be in position to secure a Big Ten invite if another round of expansion comes. Like TCU it is in a major media market.

Being third in the state of Texas is not much to overcome, much like Florida has enough talent to support three marquee programs. It's plenty big for the three of you.

They spend a not insignificant amount of money on football, have an extensive albeit shallow at times history (1938 champs, the recent Patterson glory years) and are in Texas. Aside from the obvious latter point, that's more than Rutgers could hope to accomplish in the next 50 years. Regardless, TCU has a lot going for it and also a lot not on its balance sheet -- lacking a large alumni base, 4th/5th/6th choice on in-state recruits, uncertainty how the program will hold up once Patterson leaves, and the prospect of having to fight for one or two wins out of every eight or 10 games with the big boys in its neighborhood in UT and OU.

Still, I think they're a better pick for the league that anything realistically available.

 

[Chemistry Schmemistry]

So, the Big East is about to extend football invitations to Air Force, Navy, Central Florida and Boise State in a last, desperate attempt to hang on to that automatic BCS berth.

This is becoming the Battlestar Galactica of conferences.

http://brett-mcmurphy.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/29532522/32716356

 

[OCST]

So, the Big East is about to extend football invitations to Air Force, Navy, Central Florida and Boise State in a last, desperate attempt to hang on to that automatic BCS berth.

This is becoming the Battlestar Galactica of conferences.

http://brett-mcmurphy.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/29532522/32716356

neither big, nor East.

 

[mabrowndog]

HUGE News...

1) Mtn West and C-USA to combine for 22-team football conference. (link)

2) Big East to invite Boise, Army, Navy as football-only, and Central Florida in all sports. (link)

If all this happens as reported... Wow.

 

[SumnerH]

HUGE News...

1) Mtn West and C-USA to combine for 22-team football conference. (link)

2) Big East to invite Boise, Army, Navy as football-only, and Central Florida in all sports. (link)

If all this happens as reported... Wow.

If (1) happens, would Boise jump ship or just stay in the combined conference (which presumably would merit an auto-bid over the Big East as then constituted)?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

If (1) happens, would Boise jump ship or just stay in the combined conference (which presumably would merit an auto-bid over the Big East as then constituted)?

Well they can still decline the invite, this seems like a last ditch effort to keep Boise. If they do then there is no reason why they shouldn't get the AQ

 

[mabrowndog]

I assume we're looking at two 11-team divisions, with UTEP joining the Mountain West schools, each playing a 10-game intra-divisional schedule with a championship game.

Can't see either UCF or Boise ditching this set-up for the Big East.


EAST

E. Carolina
UCF
S. Miss
Marshall
UAB
Memphis
Houston
SMU
Tulsa
Rice
Tulane

WEST

Air Force
Wyoming
UNLV
SD St
N. Mexico
Colo St
Boise St
Nevada
Fresno St
Hawaii
UTEP

 

[Chemistry Schmemistry]

A lot of this is being done for the more distant future. The BCS has yet to determine how it will qualify teams beyond the 2013-14 season.

The Big East has a bid through 2013-14, just like the five major conferences. This is regardless of performance.

The four-year evaluation process determines whether a conference earns a bid for the 2012-13 season and the 2013-14 season.

There are three criteria. I think I have it worked out correctly how they work. Scores are given in each area. These are the scores for each conference for the last three seasons:

Note: Rankings are based solely on school membership as of 12/4/11. So all four years of Boise State count for the Mountain West, and none of Utah's performances count. The Mountain West does not lose Texas Christian, either.

Criteria 1: Highest Average BCS Ranking...

1. SEC 1.3
2. Big XII 3.3
3. Pac Twelve 4.7
4. Mountain West 5.3
5. Big Ten 7.0
6. ACC 12.0
7. Big East 12.3
8. Conf USA 34.0
9. MAC 35.3
10. WAC 38.3
11. Sun Belt 66.0

Criteria 2: Average Conference Rank of all teams based solely on computer ratings

1. SEC 2.3
2. Big XII 2.7
3. ACC 3.3
4. Pac Ten 4.0
4. Big East 4.0
6. Big Ten 5.0
7. Mountain West 6.7
8. WAC 8.3
9. Conf USA 9.0
10. MAC 9.7
11. Sun Belt 11.0

Criteria 3: "Points" based on BCS Rankings (formula is fairly easy to calculate)

1. SEC 36
2. Big XII 32.5
3. Big Ten 32
4. Pac Twelve 28
5. Mountain West 26.25
6. Big East 16.25
7. ACC 15
8. WAC 3.75
9. Conf USA 1
9. MAC 1
11. Sun Belt 0

The bottom four conferences don't rank in the top seven in any category, so they don't gain any consideration. The six automatic qualifiers aren't up for discussion. This leaves the Mountain West.

The qualifications read: "A conference will become the seventh automatic qualifier if it finishes among the top six conferences in both No. 1 and No. 2 and if its ranking in No. 3 is equal to or greater than 50 percent of the conference with the highest ranking in No. 3."

It is designed to give the BCS an out if a conference only has one great school and its ranking consists mostly of its ability to destroy weak conference competition. I think it was specifically implemented against the WAC, though in this case it may affect the Mountain West, which lost Brigham Young.

The Mountain West does not meet this criteria.

However, the qualifications continue... "Further, a conference will be eligible to apply to the Presidential Oversight Committee for an exemption if it finishes among the top six in both No. 1 and No. 2 and if its ranking in No. 3 is equal to or greater than 33.3 percent of the conference with the highest ranking in No. 3, OR If it finishes among the top seven in either No. 1 or No. 2 and among the top five in the other and if its ranking in No. 3 is equal to or greater than 33.3 percent of the conference with the highest ranking in No. 3."

Not much question the Mountain West qualifies here.

Its rankings in criteria 2 and 3 are secure. I can't see any way that could change. The only way its ranking in criterion one could come into play is if Boise State collapses. And with only conference games remaining, that's unlikely - especially since the conference punished TCU by moving its game against Boise State to the blue turf. That proved quite prescient.

So, this Presidential Oversight Committee will decide whether the Mountain West has an automatic bid for the next two seasons.

Presumably, it can base that decision on future membership. And with TCU leaving (without TCU, the Mountain West would be a distant seventh in criterion 3), I don't see this committee offering that bid.

Which might explain why they're giving up for now and trying this 22-school concept, assuming that after 2013-14, completely new criteria will be in place, and having 22 schools gives them more clout.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Tom Luicci wrote the other day that the Big East can't lose its BCS bid until after 2013, and that there may also be a two year grace period (the wording is fuzzy), so perhaps they are good until 2015.

 

[DJnVa]

I assume we're looking at two 11-team divisions, with UTEP joining the Mountain West schools, each playing a 10-game intra-divisional schedule with a championship game.

Can't see either UCF or Boise ditching this set-up for the Big East.


EAST

E. Carolina
UCF
S. Miss
Marshall
UAB
Memphis
Houston
SMU
Tulsa
Rice
Tulane

WEST

Air Force
Wyoming
UNLV
SD St
N. Mexico
Colo St
Boise St
Nevada
Fresno St
Hawaii
UTEP

Per this: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7101780/source-big-east-sends-invites-five-schools-hike-exit-fee

Houston and SMU are getting full invites to the Big East

 

[Infield Infidel]

The C-USA/Mountain West football merger is smart

They make football more stable, and by keeping the conferences separate outside of football, they don't make travel crazy for other sports.

two more conferences with smarter, pro-active commissioners than the big east. Damn, I wish the Big East could have taken the place of C-USA in that merger; they could have added football teams without adding basketball teams.


Also, it looks like Temple, a school with actually good basketball, is getting blocked by Nova, which is hilarious. Big East needs football teams in the East, Temple is on the upswing, and they get blocked by the basketball schools. Big Clusterf)#& in a nutshell

 

[Infield Infidel]

Texas athletics director DeLoss Dodds sent an email to his counterpart Bill Byrne at Texas A&M to let him know that Texas' nonconference schedule was full through 2018.

"In my e-mail to Bill Byrne, I wrote that we were not in a position now to look at future football scheduling," Dodds said. "We're scheduled out with nonconference games through 2018 and our Big 12 schedule is not yet settled. What we have right now is a full schedule but if any future options are available, the decision will not be made by just one person."

Texas A&M will start competing in the Southeastern Conference in 2012.

Even with that move, Byrne told the Houston Chronicle that Texas A&M has always been open to continuing the 117-year-old rivalry with Texas. But Byrne told the paper that door had been closed by Dodds when he told him Texas' nonconference schedule was full through 2018.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7103015/texas-longhorns-deloss-dodds-tells-texas-bill-byrne-nonconference-schedule-full-2018

I give DeLoss Dodds(what an awesome name) shit for all the TV stuff, but the guy works over TAMU like a rented mule. "I'm just gonna tell media I sent you this email. You guys want to leave, THEN LEAVE. Don't let door hit ya where the good lord split ya"

Looking over future schedules, the only way Texas would have an open spot before 2018 would be if BYU is added to the Big 12 (BYU/Texas have non-conf games in 2013 and 2014). Non-conf opponents don't cancel games with Texas; it's a good payday and tons of exposure.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Just read on the ESPN ticker that Air Force and Boise are likely to decline. It seems as if that wonderful last ditch effort by the MWC and C-USA worked. I would see no reason why SMU Houston and UCF wouldn't accept as those invites are for all sports, the Big East is still the pinnacle of basketball conferences. Plus they still have the AQ until 2013, either way it makes sense for monetary purposes.

 

[bowiac]

Looking over future schedules, the only way Texas would have an open spot before 2018 would be if BYU is added to the Big 12 (BYU/Texas have non-conf games in 2013 and 2014). Non-conf opponents don't cancel games with Texas; it's a good payday and tons of exposure.

Depending on how big the payday is for a Texas-Texas A&M game, it might make sense for Texas to just pay off one cupcake opponent per year to cancel and schedule A&M instead. I imagine for instance that carrying that game on the Longhorn network might pay for itself if it got some cable companies to actually pickup the station...

 

[bowiac]

Just read on the ESPN ticker that Air Force and Boise are likely to decline. It seems as if that wonderful last ditch effort by the MWC and C-USA worked. I would see no reason why SMU Houston and UCF wouldn't accept as those invites are for all sports, the Big East is still the pinnacle of basketball conferences. Plus they still have the AQ until 2013, either way it makes sense for monetary purposes.

Syracuse and Pitt moving doesn't make it clearly the ACC? I'm less a college basketball than football guy, so maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Just read on the ESPN ticker that Air Force and Boise are likely to decline. It seems as if that wonderful last ditch effort by the MWC and C-USA worked. I would see no reason why SMU Houston and UCF wouldn't accept as those invites are for all sports, the Big East is still the pinnacle of basketball conferences. Plus they still have the AQ until 2013, either way it makes sense for monetary purposes.

If they decline, what a move by C-USA to preserve itself. If the Big East wanted Air Force and Boise they just should have added the whole dang Mountain West. C-USA beat them to the punch.

 

[SumnerH]

Syracuse and Pitt moving doesn't make it clearly the ACC? I'm less a college basketball than football guy, so maybe I'm missing something.

Pitt is so-so in basketball, but yeah I think those moves make it likely the ACC is ahead of the Big East in basketball strength in the long term.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Depending on how big the payday is for a Texas-Texas A&M game, it might make sense for Texas to just pay off one cupcake opponent per year to cancel and schedule A&M instead. I imagine for instance that carrying that game on the Longhorn network might pay for itself if it got some cable companies to actually pickup the station...

Texas has pretty stacked schedules as far as the eye can see. They have two cupcakes next year (Wyoming/New Mexico), but after that they've got two solid to high level teams every year.

With a 9 game conference schedule, I don't think they'll buy-out the one easy non-conf win they have each year to schedule TAMU, which is a potential loss. TAMU would have to replace one of the quality teams on the sched, and from the sound of that email, it seem Texas isn't interested.

 

[mabrowndog]

If the Big East doesn't land the necessary number of invited schools, is there any chance they pursue a nightmare scenario of a football-only merger with the WAC? And would that preserve a BCS slot?

Holy crap, what a woefully ugly setup that would be. With the already-pending moves, here's what the WAC will look like next fall:

Louisiana Tech
Idaho
Utah St
New Mex St
San Jose St
TX-San Antonio
TX-San Marcos
TX-Arlington
U. of Denver
Seattle U.

The last 3 schools don't have football programs, so you'd have a 13-team setup for the gridiron.

 

[Butch Hobsons elbo chips]

Also, it looks like Temple, a school with actually good basketball, is getting blocked by Nova, which is hilarious. Big East needs football teams in the East, Temple is on the upswing, and they get blocked by the basketball schools. Big Clusterf)#& in a nutshell

Villanova has not blocked a Football invite for Temple. They only requested that a full membership not be granted to a school directly within their market.
30 years of Big East membership certainly qualifies them to make that request. When you've won 22 out of the last 23 BIG FIVE games and been to 7 straight NCAA tournaments, I think they have earned the right to protect their market.

According to a Big East source, Villanova hasn't tried to put up an "over our dead body" block on Temple for joining the league for all sports but made it known they'd prefer that Big East basketball not include two schools sharing the same market.
"It's about the strategy of expansion and how markets fit in," said a Villanova source.
So that's business.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-10-14/sports/30279520_1_villanova-big-east-football-schools

Considering the BE Football schools (specifically WVU, Rutgers & PITT) mishandling of the Villanova football upgrade invitation, there is no question that Villanova is being overly gracious in not blocking Temple Football.

However, what is clearly making the Big East apprehensive about Temple Football is the fact that the program is under-supported in a major way with very few people showing up at their Home games and virtually no one in the city of Philadelphia caring if they even play Football. They couldn't even win themselves into a Bowl game last year as their 8-4 record had sponsors and host cities running away in droves not to invite them. They were 1 of 2 FBS teams in the country that qualified for a Bowl bid and didn't get an invitation. And when this senior class graduates, Temple loses a huge bulk of the current talent in the recent football upswing.

A half empty on-campus Basketball arena and less than 20K fans showing up for many of their HOME Football games makes Temple one of the most underwhleming BCS Conference candidate around. Temple Basketball has 1 NCAA tournament win in the last decade and that was an unimpressive win over Penn State last March. (In the same period, A-10 rival Xavier has won 13 NCAA tournament games.)

 

[Infield Infidel]

No offense, and that's all well and good, but it ain't 1982 anymore. Did Seton Hall block Rutgers? Is USF blocking UCF? There are 14 schools in the conference, and Nova is only one. Nova should do what's best for the conference if they are going to stay around. If not, they can go join Xavier in the A-10.

I know you are big east through and through (same as me), and you've posted earlier about how much of a terrible idea Nova football in the Big East was. At least Temple has a stadium. And they did have the best attendence in the MAC last year. If they are getting 20-25K for MAC games then they'd probably get 30-35k for Big East games.

The NCAA changed the rule requiring bowls to invite schools with winning records before schools with 6-6 records. But you are right, bowl travel is an issue which is why I'd like ECU to join as well. Small market be damned, they get 50k every home game and travel well to bowls.

This is the problem with the Big East, schools with completely different priorities turning the conference's decision-making into a congressional-like gridlock. While other conferences are being pro-active, the Big East office has to carry water for schools with divergent agendas instead of looking at the big picture, which is the imminent collapse of the conference.

Edit-It's crazy to me that unless Temple is invited, next year the Big East will not only have no schools in recruiting rich PA, but will have turned down one school (Penn St back in 1982), kicked out a second (Temple), lost a third to the ACC (Pitt)

 

[gtg807y]

If the Big East doesn't land the necessary number of invited schools, is there any chance they pursue a nightmare scenario of a football-only merger with the WAC? And would that preserve a BCS slot?

Holy crap, what a woefully ugly setup that would be. With the already-pending moves, here's what the WAC will look like next fall:

Louisiana Tech
Idaho
Utah St
New Mex St
San Jose St
TX-San Antonio
TX-San Marcos
TX-Arlington
U. of Denver
Seattle U.

The last 3 schools don't have football programs, so you'd have a 13-team setup for the gridiron.

Sheesh. There might be some D-1AA football conferences that are better than the depleted WAC.

 

[DJnVa]

Sheesh. There might be some D-1AA football conferences that are better than the depleted WAC.

Yep. The Colonial is one of them. I wonder if the the Big East goes and tries to grab some of the football teams from the CAA.

 

[Butch Hobsons elbo chips]

Again, you have your facts wrong. Villanova did not block TEMPLE FOOTBALL.

The two major College writers in Philadelphia are both TEMPLE Alumni. One of them, Mike Kern, has both of his kids there now. They bleed Owl blood in every article they write and they don't hide that fact to anybody. Kern stated earlier this week that if the shoe was on the other foot he knows Temple would not want Villanova Basketball in the Conference.
Villanova Basketball averages approx 18,500 for BIG EAST games at the First Union Center over the past 6 seasons. (they play 4-6 BE home games there each season) They built their brand up to that point.
Temple has a 10K seat On-Campus arena and they avg only 5925 last season.

A Big East source said that on a league conference call earlier in the week, Villanova spoke out against Temple as an all-sports member, but after several basketball schools spoke against Temple for all sports, Villanova said it had "no problem" with Temple playing football in the league. Skeptical of this? "It 100 percent happened," the source said

.

BTW, Everyone already knows that USF has done everything conceivable under the sun to STOP any membership being granted to UCF for several YEARS now. UCF was a Top 25 Football team last year, has built modern facilities across the board in virtually every sport they sponsor and is one of the BIGGEST Universities in the United States. And UCF is not even within their local media market. The USF President stated unequivically only weeks ago that No Big East expansion would be considered in any STATE that Big East already had a member. Advocating STATE-wide blocking? She must be delirious.

The BIG EAST has a choice to add a College Football team from a Philadelphia school already in their Conference and they chose not to do so. WVU, PITT & Rutgers went to great lengths to BLOCK this 30 year member last April after months of Big East enticements to join and the University spending time and money on costly studies.
From my perspective as someone that participated in Andy Talley's rebuilding plan 26 years ago, I am actually fine with the results of those selfish backstabbing actions by those BIG EAST football schools. I don't consider Philadelphia to be a College Football town and hasn't been since the 1940's pre-dating the modern NFL. I don't support the Villanova football upgrade and I am basically a labeled pariah on Villanova blogs when this topic comes up. (lol)
But the fact remains that the Villanova Board of Trustees are still ready to fund the entire upgrade, build a $35 Million dollar Football facility and work out an arrangement to play their Home games at the ultra modern PP&L Park that has the ability to expand to 30K seats. That's more of a commitment then TEMPLE has made or will attempt to make in the next 20 years.

In the end, it appears that the BIG EAST settled on inviting 6 football programs to join.
EVERY ONE of them is a better Football program than TEMPLE.
EVERY ONE of them has a better following than TEMPLE.
This is a simple case of better applicants getting the job. More qualified, better resumes, better recommendations.
(although Temple may still get a consolation prize if Boise State balks)

At least Temple has a stadium. And they did have the best attendence in the MAC last year. If they are getting 20-25K for MAC games then they'd probably get 30-35k for Big East games.

1) Temple doesn't have a stadium. They talked about it for 25 years and nobody built a damn thing for them.
The Philadelphia Eagles control every aspect of Lincoln Financial. In the original financing proposal from the State Legislature, the Eagles were induced by Ed Rendell and his cronies to let the local publically funded University have use of the stadium. So Temple plays Home games when the Eagles tell them to and that could be on a Tuesday, a Wednesday, a Thursday...hell even a Friday 5:00pm start for their biggest rivalry of the year (which isn't even an FBS school) while the Phillies are playing across the street. The Eagles don't give a damn about Temple Football squatting in their stadium and Temple gets only what the Eagles give them.

Here is how former coach Al Golden described Temple Football facilities after he left last year.
http://danonthestreet.com/news/2011/01/10/al-golden-does-everything-but-call-it-the-temple-of-doom/

If you're talking about resources, we had the worst facilities. We had the smallest weight room. We had the worst academic support. I mean when people say, 'resources.' What resources did we have? We were kicked out of the Big East.
I don't know who is saying that but come walk around in our facility there and look at what we had compared to what Bowling Green has and what Western Michigan has. We don't have an indoor facility. We barely had one practice field when I got there. We had to add the second of a half a field so we have a field and a half. And it's not exactly in Coral Gables, you know what I'm saying?"

2) 20-25K for MAC games ????? Come on, be serious. The majority of MAC home games report numbers in the 13k to 18k range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Temple_Owls_football_team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Temple_Owls_football_team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Temple_Owls_football_team

2008 Temple (5) 15,582 avg 5-7 record
2009 Temple (6) 17,379 avg (*27,759) 9-4 record and first Bowl Game in 30 YEARS.
2010 Temple (6) 20,515 avg (*32,193) 8-4 record (1 of only 2 Bowl eligible teams in the country NOT invited)

*Those last 2 season averages included the bloated attendance from the Mayor's Cup games vs FCS school Villanova which is a 4 game series that ends next September. This year, they reported 32,368 Tickets sold for the 2011 game but every individual present at the game saw less than 23K actually show up to watch the game. You can flip a coin to which side is padding those Ticket Sales more since both schools were looking for BCS invites and touting that game total as proof they can draw within the City...lol


3) 30-35K for Big East games? Miami, VT, Boston College, PITT, Syracuse were all in the League when Temple got booted from the BIG EAST for complete apathy but the likes of Louisville, USF, UCF, Cincinnati, UConn are supposed to create a non-existent fan base for them out of thin air.

Philadelphia Football fans will show up to watch 2 college football teams...Penn State and Notre Dame.
Penn State drew 57,323 this year to the LINC.
I think Notre Dame has a game in Philly coming up in a few years.