Chelsea 2013-2014: Insufferable & Unsuccessful but Better than Arsenal

[Snakebauer007]

He probably had to Google Caulker and Shawcross since they don't play on a team he knows.

That's definitely it, you're just that much more knowledgeable, there's a reason why England would take Jt back in a second for the World Cup, nobody is leaving him out of any team on any day for Caulker or Shawcross or Skrtel or either Arsenal defender. Top defender on the League's top defense(by 8 goals allowed). I get it, everyone hates JT, but he's having his best season in years, and he's already a better defender on a decent year than every guy you mentioned save Mertseacker.

Slow defenders aren't supposed to work in high line/pressing teams, but he completely changed his game this season from the stopper centerback(always pushing up and closing down forwards) to the cover defender who cleans up the mess(the role Carvalho used to man for us) so that Cahill could take the pressing role. Not many guys this late in their career could completely change how they play the position. And it is no coincidence when he is out of the lineup, the back 4 suddenly become quite shaky and disorganized.

 

[JayMags71]

Honest question: are you saying he's the best CB in the EPL, bar none? It seems that way.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

I do have to say that Skrtel over Terry seems farfetched.

 

[JayMags71]

Skrtel seems to be having the best year of his career, so it doesn't seem to be far fetched in a 2013-14 context. I'm agnostic though.

 

[Snakebauer007]

Honest question: are you saying he's the best CB in the EPL, bar none? It seems that way.

Right now, if everyone was fit I would take Kompany as the best defender in the League

 

[coremiller]

It's hard to account for team context, but Chelsea's defense has been MUCH better than Liverpool's.  How much of that is due to Terry vs Skrtel and how much is due to the other players and tactics (Mourinho is obv much more conservative than Rodgers, etc.) is hard to tell.  But Terry is cetainly a part of it.  
 
Skrtel's season seems impressive because he's scored 7 goals, which is valuable no doubt, but that's got nothing to do with defensive value.  It's like giving the gold glove to the catcher who hits 30 home runs.
 
I hate to say it, but I find myself agreeing with Snake that Terry is one of the 4 or 5 best CBs in the EPL right now.  The idea that any manager would take Shawcross over Terry is laughable.  Caulker is a good player but not at that top level yet, but he's still young and might get there.  Shawcross at 26 is still at a small, mid-table club and can't get near an England team that is desperate for CB depth (Julian Lescott anyone?).  
 
DLew's list did have some notable omissions, of which Jagielka is the most obvious.  Kompany is probably the most talented defender in the league but this has been a down season for him and he hasn't quite hit the heights he got to in 2012.

 

[JayMags71]

Skrtel's season seems impressive because he's scored 7 goals, which is valuable no doubt, but that's got nothing to do with defensive value.  It's like giving the gold glove to the catcher who hits 30 home runs.

I know didn't explicitly state this point, but I wasn't staking my claim based upon the number of goals he's scored. That would be simplistic.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

Tactics have a lot to do with Chelsea's defensive success I think. They re sacrificing goal scoring in order to maintain a clean sheet. Alas, this isn't baseball or basketball to find a some way to make an apple to apple comparison.

 

[DLew On Roids]

It's hard to account for team context, but Chelsea's defense has been MUCH better than Liverpool's.  How much of that is due to Terry vs Skrtel and how much is due to the other players and tactics (Mourinho is obv much more conservative than Rodgers, etc.) is hard to tell.  But Terry is cetainly a part of it.  
 
Skrtel's season seems impressive because he's scored 7 goals, which is valuable no doubt, but that's got nothing to do with defensive value.  It's like giving the gold glove to the catcher who hits 30 home runs.
 
I hate to say it, but I find myself agreeing with Snake that Terry is one of the 4 or 5 best CBs in the EPL right now.  The idea that any manager would take Shawcross over Terry is laughable.  Caulker is a good player but not at that top level yet, but he's still young and might get there.  Shawcross at 26 is still at a small, mid-table club and can't get near an England team that is desperate for CB depth (Julian Lescott anyone?).  
 
DLew's list did have some notable omissions, of which Jagielka is the most obvious.  Kompany is probably the most talented defender in the league but this has been a down season for him and he hasn't quite hit the heights he got to in 2012.

 
Addressing each of the bolded sections...
 
The question isn't who's best at the defensive end; it's who's the best defender.  Scoring goals on set pieces is part of a central defender's job.  Skrtel has been by far the best in the league at it this year--he'd be the top scorer at six or seven clubs--and he's the best part of a Liverpool defense that too often gets caught upfield. 
 
Shawcross is a 26-YO captain (so he's relied upon to be a tactical leader) who's valued at GBP 7.9M on TransferMarkt.  He's mobile while being strong in the tackle (Arsenal fans might say too strong--sorry, guys).  I can understand someone preferring Terry's experience over Shawcross's greater skill at this point, but calling a preference for Shawcross laughable suggests to me that someone is looking at the shirt and assuming the player isn't quality.  And I would absolutely take Caulker over Terry right now.  He's been the one bright spot for Cardiff outside of Vincent Tan's pants.  And if we're going to use the England side as a metric, can we include the fact that Terry can't get near the England side because he's completely toxic?  I mean, Snake can believe in all the CAPTAINLEADERLEGEND stuff he wants, and that might fly at Chelsea, but England have decided they won't touch him. (Don't drop that "Terry retired from international football!" nonsense.  He "retired" right after getting suspended for the Anton Ferdinand incident, when he knew the FA wouldn't allow him to be called up again.) 
 
I agree that I missed some players who I'd put at or above Terry's level.  You mentioned two should have listed; Vertongen is another one.
 
Terry is a very smart player who knows how to set up his side, where to position himself for opportunities, and he's excellent at working the refs.  But his physical skills faded a couple of years ago now, and he gets exposed by better athletes.  Is he a top 10 central defender with his current tactical skills?  Sure.  But the best defender in the EPL doesn't have this happen:
 

 

[mgoblue2]

Haven't Stoke given up more goals than usual this season? Shawcross hasn't been their best player. I'd take maybe 3-4 players over Terry (Kompany, Jagielka, one of the Liverpool CBs, maybe Vertonghen) but Terry is still very good. He has as much influence on a defensive unit as anyone else in the league, if not more.

 

[PedroSpecialK]

 
Terry is a very smart player who knows how to set up his side, where to position himself for opportunities, and he's excellent at working the refs.  But his physical skills faded a couple of years ago now, and he gets exposed by better athletes.  Is he a top 10 central defender with his current tactical skills?  Sure.  But the best defender in the EPL doesn't have this happen:
 

 
 
I agree Terry isn't the best CB in the BPL, but that kind of stuff happens.
 

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Terry is very good to great, and his skills fit well in Chelsea's system with the other very good players surrounding him.  The system definitely matters, as Jamie Carragher was a great defender in a Rafael Benitez coached Liverpool side, but his limitations would have probably been exposed if he played in his prime under Brendan Rodgers.
 
Kompany has been the best center-back in the Premiership over the last few years for me, but he has had some struggles this season, likely due to City's aggressive offensive style. Every defender will have an embarrassing moment occasionally, it's part of the job.  I'm still shocked he made the error that resulted in Liverpool's winner.
 
EDIT: PSK, great minds, etc...

 

[Snakebauer007]

Based on this season I would put him and Cahill as my CBs in the team of the season, you can point to bias but the defensive record In all competitions stands, and it's far less biased than taking Skrtel over him as a Liverpool fan

 

[Nick Kaufman]

The question isn't who's best at the defensive end; it's who's the best defender.  Scoring goals on set pieces is part of a central defender's job.  Skrtel has been by far the best in the league at it this year--he'd be the top scorer at six or seven clubs--and he's the best part of a Liverpool defense that too often gets caught upfield.
 

 
The problem with scoring 7 goals off set pieces is that it may very well be just variance. Or may be Rodgers is very good at drilling set pieces. I think it's very likely that Skrtel doesn't score shit next year, because he doesn't have any above average skill in scoring on set pieces and so he just regresses to the mean.

 

[coremiller]

 
Addressing each of the bolded sections...
 
The question isn't who's best at the defensive end; it's who's the best defender.  Scoring goals on set pieces is part of a central defender's job.  Skrtel has been by far the best in the league at it this year--he'd be the top scorer at six or seven clubs--and he's the best part of a Liverpool defense that too often gets caught upfield. 
 
Shawcross is a 26-YO captain (so he's relied upon to be a tactical leader) who's valued at GBP 7.9M on TransferMarkt.  He's mobile while being strong in the tackle (Arsenal fans might say too strong--sorry, guys).  I can understand someone preferring Terry's experience over Shawcross's greater skill at this point, but calling a preference for Shawcross laughable suggests to me that someone is looking at the shirt and assuming the player isn't quality.  And I would absolutely take Caulker over Terry right now.  He's been the one bright spot for Cardiff outside of Vincent Tan's pants.  And if we're going to use the England side as a metric, can we include the fact that Terry can't get near the England side because he's completely toxic?  I mean, Snake can believe in all the CAPTAINLEADERLEGEND stuff he wants, and that might fly at Chelsea, but England have decided they won't touch him.
 
I agree that I missed some players who I'd put at or above Terry's level.  You mentioned two should have listed; Vertongen is another one.
 
Terry is a very smart player who knows how to set up his side, where to position himself for opportunities, and he's excellent at working the refs.  But his physical skills faded a couple of years ago now, and he gets exposed by better athletes.  Is he a top 10 central defender with his current tactical skills?  Sure.  But the best defender in the EPL doesn't have this happen:
 
 

 
Re: Terry and England, you're just wrong on the facts.  Terry retired from international football in 2012 after playing every minute of England's four games at Euro 2012 under Hodgson.  On what basis have you concluded that England won't touch him?  Hodgson deliberately (and correctly, if their performances this season are indicative) chose Terry over Ferdinand when it was clear he could only pick one.
 
Re defender scoring, Skrtel has a lot of goals this year but I'm not sure how meaningful that is.  As Nick says, defender scoring tends to be relatively unpredictive/hard to repeat.  Skrtel had never scored more than 2 goals in a season before.  Does his 7-goal burst represent some newly developed skill or is that the soccer version of hitting .360 with a hugely inflated BABIP?
 
Re Shawcross, if that 8m valuation is actually correct, that's pretty damning, isn't it?  Hardly suggests he's one of the best defenders in the league when top (and not so top) defenders frequently move for 15m or more (David Luiz, Phil Jones, Nastasic, Cahill, Lescott, Sakho, etc.).  If he were really a) one of the 5 best centerbacks in the division, and b) available for 8m, he almost certainly would have been bought by a top club already.  It hasn't happened.  There's a reason for it, and it's not because Shawcross loves the weather in the Potteries so much.
 
Re Caulker, I agree he's a good player and has been a relative bright spot for Cardiff . . . a side with the league's 2nd worst defensive record (65 conceded) that is very likely going to get relegated.  Obviously the rest of the team sucks too, but being a bright spot for Cardiff this year is like being the tallest guy at the midget convention.  I'd take Caulker over Terry for the next 10 years in a heartbeat, but not for this season.

 

[teddykgb]

Shawcross and Caulker don't belong in this conversation.  I think someone was getting overly enamored with their team's supposed transfer targets or something.
 
Terry's a good player. He and Cahill aren't as good as the stats suggest, but he's probably still in the PL's top 5-10.  I think Cahill may be better, though.  Only thing Terry still excels at is going down once a match injured and then giving us 10-15 seconds of limping while the announcers go on about how much of a warrior he is  

 

[Snakebauer007]

Commentators fawn over terry? I haven't heard that in a long time, but maybe it's the ridiculous Lion of Liverpool garbage drowning it out.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

If anything is drowning it out, it's Jose still moaning about a goal from 9 years ago.

 

[Snakebauer007]

^^
I had just put that out of my memories...Also, what goal?

 

[SoxFanInCali]

The one the officials gave you a break by awarding, rather than sending off your keeper and making you play for 86 minutes with 10 players while still probably 1-0 down.

 

[Snakebauer007]

That was me sarcastically remarking about it not being a goal

 

[SoxFanInCali]

And that was me sarcastically responding that you would have been worse off if they had called it no goal rather than the way it worked out.

 

[Snakebauer007]

tbf, bullshit!

 

[DLew On Roids]

http://youtu.be/-sbFhOeqTzY

 

[soxfan121]

A defensive master class. Jose really is the best in the world at what he does.

 

[Snakebauer007]

Gerrard is such a gentleman. Not only did he give the ball right to Ba but he also picked it up out of the net for us


Did anyone switch scuba gear with Sterling after that match?

Russian blood money 2 History 0

 

[Snakebauer007]

Huge props for Kalas on his full premier League debut, partered with our regular Rightback In The center of defense against the most dangerous forward in the League, near mistake free.

I think it was Bobby Charlton who said: Mourinho is just a good coach and nothing more, clearly he has no idea.

 

[Zomp]

Gerrard is such a gentleman. Not only did he give the ball right to Ba but he also picked it up out of the net for us

Karma for his assist to Drogba a few years back.

 

[Snakebauer007]

Karma for his assist to Drogba a few years back.

First thing I thought of

 

[Snakebauer007]

http://giant.gfycat.com/FarUnpleasantElkhound.gif

 

[PedroSpecialK]

Kalas was superb, as was Ivanović back at CB. 
 
Liverpool had no answer for Matić in the midfield, and despite the possession stats I thought he, along with Ba's hold-up play, stymied a lot of what have normally been quick counter-attacking situations for Liverpool this season.
 
Mourinho got his tactics perfect - Gerrard's slip aside, it took a fantastic save on Schürrle by Mignolet to keep it at 0-1 early second half. I can't recall a clear-cut opportunity for anyone not named Mamadou Sakho.

 

[JayMags71]

Suarez had one shot that looked ready to go in when it left his foot. Schwartzer was fortunate with his positioning.

 

[Snakebauer007]

Not sure how I feel about Schurrle yet(in terms of his game) but his attitude is great, and exemplified how the more people hate Chelsea for deciding to use one of the strategies available to them(playing defense), the more it drives the players together.

"We felt it was brilliant, a perfect game. We did exactly what we needed to do and what we were told to do. If people say, Chelsea cant play even when we win its just because theyre jealous. Winning is what matters. You can play perfect football, lots of one-touch, and you lose. But theres no point in playing well and losing. If our plan is to win playing this way, and we win, then its perfect.

I didnt get the chance to see what [Mourinho] was like in the dressing room. I didnt see him but that was because everybody was jumping about and excited. Everybody thinks we can win the league and the Champions League. It will be tough. But we have to believe, and we do."

If you want to talk about how you shouldn't play the game, tell Liverpool to kick the ball back after an injury, that's sportsmanship 101 or Sterling to try and stay on his feet every now and again.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/10259901_691011304294675_5071295719826750111_n.jpg

 

[sachmoney]

Or Mourinho to give the ball to Liverpool when it's in his hands...

 

[teddykgb]

Not sure how I feel about Schurrle yet(in terms of his game) but his attitude is great, and exemplified how the more people hate Chelsea for deciding to use one of the strategies available to them(playing defense), the more it drives the players together.

"We felt it was brilliant, a perfect game. We did exactly what we needed to do and what we were told to do. If people say, Chelsea cant play even when we win its just because theyre jealous. Winning is what matters. You can play perfect football, lots of one-touch, and you lose. But theres no point in playing well and losing. If our plan is to win playing this way, and we win, then its perfect.

I didnt get the chance to see what [Mourinho] was like in the dressing room. I didnt see him but that was because everybody was jumping about and excited. Everybody thinks we can win the league and the Champions League. It will be tough. But we have to believe, and we do."

If you want to talk about how you shouldn't play the game, tell Liverpool to kick the ball back after an injury, that's sportsmanship 101 or Sterling to try and stay on his feet every now and again.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/10259901_691011304294675_5071295719826750111_n.jpg

 
The best part about this graphic is that it has to be expanded to "Top 7" in order to get United into it.  Makes me grin ear to ear.

 

[Zomp]

You may want to look at that graphic again...

 

[Snakebauer007]

Jose is always entertaining(to me):
http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2014/4/30/5666466/jose-mourinho-football-philosophers

 

[Snakebauer007]

https://twitter.com/jakefcohen/status/461547082528989184

add to it!

 

[Seven Costanza]

Just an observation, but it strikes me as odd that a Chelsea player is playing against Chelsea in the semi-final. Just hard to wrap my small mind around.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

As a New England Patriots fan, I've often wondered why fans of other teams hate Belichick so much.  It's not just his success.  There's more going on.  I think to myself, he's smart, witty, obviously being sarcastic much of the time, and almost always entertaining.  The fact that he plays by his own rules should be celebrated, not decried.  
 
Then I listen to or watch Mourinho and it all makes sense to me.

 

[JayMags71]

JayMags71 Likes this

 

[Stanley Steamer]

20 mins. in and it's a testy affair. Atletico looks up for the fight, using their physicality to win the ball back. All they'll likely need is one goal.

 

[DLew On Roids]

Jose rolls out six defenders for one of the richest clubs in the world while playing at home against Atletico Madrid.

He's beyond parody at this point.

 

[Seven Costanza]

And yet they're in the lead.  Fancy that.

 

[Seven Costanza]

Yeah...

 

[Snakebauer007]

Jose rolls out six defenders for one of the richest clubs in the world while playing at home against Atletico Madrid.

He's beyond parody at this point.

Luiz has been playing midfield all season, of course when ever convenient......

Nothing left to lose here, push em all up

 

[Snakebauer007]

Looks like a Madrid derby it will be. Well played to Atletico, kept attacking Hazard's side, punished twice, exactly what didn't happened last week with Willian in that position. Give and take with playing a player not fully fit

 

[Stanley Steamer]

Looks like a Madrid derby it will be. Well played to Atletico, kept attacking Hazard's side, punished twice, exactly what didn't happened last week with Willian in that position. Give and take with playing a player not fully fit

Pretty much it. I feel a bit bad for Chelsea, but happy still for Atletico.

 

[Snakebauer007]

Pretty much it. I feel a bit bad for Chelsea, but happy still for Atletico.

Very much deserved, I quite like Atletico just not today

 

[Snakebauer007]

The more I see Courtois, the more I wonder who the hell will be in goal for us next season