Change of Address for Kevin Love - How About Causeway Street?

[wutang112878]

Cool. Al Jefferson netted KG. Not bad for a 15th. Plus I should have pointed out our future picks have more value without Kevin Love. Build up talent first, then keep or trade them.

What is your plan to become a title contender with Love and Rondo? Who else do you bring in? How long before we reach this goal?

3-4 years? 2 years? Are 3-4 top 6 picks worse as opposed to 3-4 early exits and mediocre picks?

Chances are you won't get a player as good as Love this year at 6, but the chances of the 6 pick being that #1 and leading us to a title in the next 5 years is better than Love/Rondo.

Sell me on your plan. All I see is trade for Love and Asik. Ok. Then what? This team is drek and all its value is in future picks.

 
You are basically assuming that Love and Rondo are here and then Danny shuts his office door, smashes his cellphone and doesnt make another move or free agent signing and those Nets picks dont exist.  Its like you dont make enough money at your current job so you just complain about it but wont go look for a new one.  Whereas your strategy is to watch the ping pong balls over and over and over and hope you eventually win.  Which is similar to buying a $20 scratch ticket every day to compensate for the fact that you dont make enough money at your current job.
 
The plan after you get Love is to build in the rest of the pieces.  You need a defensive center, that is an absolute certainty.  Whatever type of defensive player Love is, he is not a rim protector.  Maybe you take a huge gamble and see if you can get Hibbert.  Maybe you make a run at DeAndre Jordon once he hits free agency and see if you can give the Clips pick back to them in a sign and trade.  You also need a 2 or 3 (preferably the 3) who can create their own shot to take pressure off of Love on offense.  Thats a guy you could try to find in the draft or again you could find a guy on the trade market and use some picks to get him, or maybe Sully.

 

[Brickowski]

It may. Care to make that argument?

Not really. I don't think PER, win shares (there are several different variants of this), "Simple" ratings or any of the other contemporary statistical tools do a very goods job of measuring the value of an NBA player. Again, Love is a superstar when it comes to many of these metrics, but somehow it has not translated into wins.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

So your plan is acquire Love and worry about it later?

I'm not assuming Ainge will shut off. You are assuming the pieces are there to acquire and we have the means to acquire them. Nice plan, everything will just work out and we'll win tons of titles.

I even mentioned Hibbert on this very page. I don't see most people with a plan other than naming hypothetical players that grow on trees.

Although to be fair, the lottery is the same wait and see but w/e.

 

[wutang112878]

So your plan is acquire Love and worry about it later?

I'm not assuming Ainge will shut off. You are assuming the pieces are there to acquire and we have the means to acquire them. Nice plan, everything will just work out and we'll win tons of titles.

I even mentioned Hibbert on this very page. I don't see most people with a plan other than naming hypothetical players that grow on trees.

Although to be fair, the lottery is the same wait and see but w/e.

 
No, my plan is to add Love and then to continue to work to add the pieces around him to get to the point that the team wins a title.  That however doesnt happen overnight, instead its going to take 2-3 years at least.  If we were to add Love this offseason, save for a few minor free agent additions, I think this team would be essentially finished making moves until the deadline.  Then at the deadline we know what other holes we have on the roster and we see if we can make a move to address any of those holes.  Thats the generic process.  Unfortunately I cant tell you exactly which players are going to be available from now until we have the next parade, nor do I know the exact pipeline that is coming up through the draft.
 
Being more specific, this is what I would do:
- Trade for Love
- Add depth in free agency but do not pay a player more than $5M a season unless you think they are going to be a starting caliber player
- See if Sully and Love can play together
- If no, try to trade Sully at the deadline to address/upgrade at the 3/5
- Based on moves at deadline see how team progresses
- Come 2015 draft, try to package 2 first rounders & possibly player to move up to get a higher pick (in search of a real difference making star) or use these assets to trade for an established but young star type player
 
This brings us a calendar year into the future, and I think its pretty difficult to project what to do next because we have no idea how successful these moves might be.  Beyond that outlining specific moves is really an exercise in futility because we have very little clue what might happen. 

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
Shawn Kemp was a very good player. But he's not the scorer Love is, doesn't have Love's range, and relied so heavily on athleticism that when it went his career declined immediately. Love has a a much more well-rounded game, and would have won plenty of playoff games playing with the same level of talent that Kemp did.
 
But Love vs. Kemp isn't the point. The point is how unlikely it is to get a player of that caliber at #17. It's very unlikely at #6, as well.

Shawn Kemp is being severely underrated. He was by most stats as good a player as Love through their 6th season, and put up 4 more years at the same level. Kemp was one of the best and most dominating players in the league for a good 7-8 year stretch on both ends. I'd take prime Shawn Kemp over Kevin Love 10 times out of 10.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Cool. Al Jefferson netted KG. Not bad for a 15th. Plus I should have pointed out our future picks have more value without Kevin Love. Build up talent first, then keep or trade them.

What is your plan to become a title contender with Love and Rondo? Who else do you bring in? How long before we reach this goal?

3-4 years? 2 years? Are 3-4 top 6 picks worse as opposed to 3-4 early exits and mediocre picks?

Chances are you won't get a player as good as Love this year at 6, but the chances of the 6 pick being that #1 and leading us to a title in the next 5 years is better than Love/Rondo.

Sell me on your plan. All I see is trade for Love and Asik. Ok. Then what? This team is drek and all its value is in future picks.

 
The part of this argument I find most baffling is the different ways that the 'unknown' is treated depending on which side of the "trade for Love" line you fall on.
 
If you're pro-trading for Love, any unknown is negative. If you want to trade for Love, you need to spell out a step-by-step plan as to how you build a contender. Meanwhile, if you're opposed to trading for Love and just want to keep the picks, you're allowed to make vague statements like "the chances of the 6 pick being that #1 and leading us to a title in the next 5 years is better than Love/Rondo" and "Plus I should have pointed out our future picks have more value without Kevin Love. Build up talent first, then keep or trade them." It doesn't matter who the picks are, or who they're being traded for in your scenario. They just have value. And not just value, but more value.
 
Meanwhile, if you favor trading for Love, any unknown at all is unacceptable. I don't know who or how the Celtics would end up acquiring complimentary pieces, because I don't know who is available. I don't know very basic things like what the cap will be in two years, or whether Jeff Green will opt into his final year, or where Brooklyn will finish, or whether Deron Williams' ankles hold up, or any number of other factors. But what I do know--and have pointed out--is the type of players first round picks have netted in trades recently, and that the Celtics will have cap space going forward, with or without Love. Maybe they use that to sign Marc Gasol. Maybe they trade for Larry Sanders in a deal built around Rondo if Milwaukee drafts Embiid. Maybe you hold onto the picks until you see what plays out with Irving in Cleveland, maybe you send a couple to Atlanta for Horford if it looks like he's moving on. Maybe you look into dealing for Hibbert. Maybe Denver blows it up and you can deal for Ty Lawson. Who knows?
 
What I do know is that you'd have Kevin Love. And that puts you much closer to contention than any #6 pick in the last 20 years. According to Zach Lowe, every single team in the NBA that has been collecting assets over the last 2 years has been doing so with Kevin Love in mind. The odds of netting a player of Love's caliber in the lottery--even if you're in the lottery for 3-4 years as you seem to be proposing--are extremely, extremely slim.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Shawn Kemp is being severely underrated. He was by most stats as good a player as Love through their 6th season, and put up 4 more years at the same level. Kemp was one of the best and most dominating players in the league for a good 7-8 year stretch on both ends. I'd take prime Shawn Kemp over Kevin Love 10 times out of 10.

 
Alright, cool. That doesn't increase the odds of finding a player of that caliber at number 17, which is the only reason Shawn Kemp's name came up.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Not really. I don't think PER, win shares (there are several different variants of this), "Simple" ratings or any of the other contemporary statistical tools do a very goods job of measuring the value of an NBA player. Again, Love is a superstar when it comes to many of these metrics, but somehow it has not translated into wins.

 
None of them are perfect. Some, including win shares, do a decent job. And again, Love has had terrible teammates. I don't fault him for that. You do. Agree to disagree.
 
The point though, is not about win shares or PER, but about the value it's reasonable to expect out of those picks vs. Kevin Love's value. I feel that people are inflating the former and deflating the latter. That's what the win share comparison between Love and the 8 players picks #6 and #17 over the last four years was meant to illustrate.

 

[Devizier]

That may say more about win shares as a measuring tool than it does about Love.

 
Or, maybe you should consider who those players are.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

 
Overall we agree, you need elite of the elite talent to lead a team to a title in your first 5 years
 
On the details just because I love talking NBA history...  Duncan won his 2nd year in 98/99 and I would argue that while he was a huge cog he didnt really have to 'lead' because he had a team of veterans in David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot and Mario Ellie all of whom were in their 30s.  Duncan was probably that teams best player, but winning on that team is kind of different than Duncan leading a team of guys in their early 20s to a title.  Magic and Bird had some veterans in their 30s when they won their first, but they really didnt have a full team of veterans like Duncan did.
 
In addition, Duncan reloaded that team whereas Bird and Magic had to rebuild their teams.  The year before Duncan arrived the Spurs won 20 games with Robinson's injury, but leading up to the 20 the Spurs won 55, 62 and 59 and then 20.  The foundation was there and Duncan added to it.  With the Celts they won 44, 32, 29 and then Bird arrived and they won 61 with literally THE SAME exact team except for the addition of Bird.  Magic's situation is probably different where he had Kareem who was probably their best player for a while so he had him to lean on, but he was most certainly their 2nd best player when they won the title his rookie year and I mean he did that his rookie freaking year which is pretty crazy.

 
Magic actually came on to a pretty loaded Lakers team (I'd argue better than the Spurs team Duncan joined)-Kareem was still chugging along at that point, and they had pre-injury Norm Nixon plus Jamaal (don't call me Keith) Wilkes and Michael Cooper.  It was already a good team, and IIRC, Kareem was just killing Dawkins in the finals before he got hurt, which is why Magic's game Six was so important-there was a ton of production to replace.  Bird is really the only one that came on to a terrible team and won right away.  
 
Who was picked previously at the #6 slot is completely irrelevant-in every one of those drafts, somebody grabbed a better player later in the draft.  The team picking #6 just whiffed.  Those good players taken later were all available at #6,
 
I'd roll the dice on Love, and then next offseason try to make use of the Nets picks (too far out now to bring back value).  
 
In the end, the Love you take is not equal to the picks you make.   

 

[Brickowski]

None of them are perfect. Some, including win shares, do a decent job. And again, Love has had terrible teammates. I don't fault him for that. You do. Agree to disagree.
 
The point though, is not about win shares or PER, but about the value it's reasonable to expect out of those picks vs. Kevin Love's value. I feel that people are inflating the former and deflating the latter. That's what the win share comparison between Love and the 8 players picks #6 and #17 over the last four years was meant to illustrate.

I don't think either of the players they pick with #6 or #17 will be nearly as good as Love, at least not offensively. But the Celtics need more than one player. Also, I think you are underestimating the value of cap flexibility to a rebuilding team, and trading for Love would take a big chunk of that away.

Suppose LeBron exercises his ETO, and if Ainge hadn't traded for Love on draft night, he could have used the stretch provision on multiple players to clear enough cap space to make LeBron a max offer. Sure it's wildly unlikely, but with cap space, Ainge could at least make the call to LeBron's agent.

 

[Brickowski]

Whatever odds you think the Celtics have of winning a title with Love as a centerpiece, they're far greater than the possibility of LeBron wearing green.

So? That's just one example. There are plenty of fish in the sea, and there will always be disgruntled stars and small market teams that don't want to pay top dollar to players coming off rookie scale. It's not as if trading for Love is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

 

[Devizier]

Like I pointed out earlier, the only free agents that approach Love's class that would even remotely consider coming to Boston are Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh. I should emphasize the remoteness of this happening in either case. Plus, these guys are 4+ years older than Love.

 

[Brickowski]

Like I pointed out earlier, the only free agents that approach Love's class that would even remotely consider coming to Boston are Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh. I should emphasize the remoteness of this happening in either case. Plus, these guys are 4+ years older than Love.

What about free agents next year or the year after? Does everyone here need instant gratification?

 

[Stitch01]

There's an argument that trading for Love isnt an optimal use of assets, but the chances of getting a player as good as love via free agency is slim enough that its not worth worrying about.
 
Personally, Id ship off 6/17/Sullinger and w/e cap flotsam is needed to make the deal work.  Simmons speculated it would take both of next years picks as well, Im not sure Id do that unprotected.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I don't think either of the players they pick with #6 or #17 will be nearly as good as Love, at least not offensively. But the Celtics need more than one player. Also, I think you are underestimating the value of cap flexibility to a rebuilding team, and trading for Love would take a big chunk of that away.

Suppose LeBron exercises his ETO, and if Ainge hadn't traded for Love on draft night, he could have used the stretch provision on multiple players to clear enough cap space to make LeBron a max offer. Sure it's wildly unlikely, but with cap space, Ainge could at least make the call to LeBron's agent.

But, I'll play. Let's pretend LeBron exersizes his ETO in two differesnt worlds, one where the C's have traded for Love and one where they haven't. First, the world where no deal was made:

Danny: LeBron, want to come sign here?
LeBron: No. You guys are really bad. Also, you don't have the cap space to sign me.You're an NBA GM, you should know these things.

Now the world where the C's did trade for Love:

Danny: LeBron, here's the plan. We're going to attach a first to Gerald Wallace and ship him to Philly, and we're gonna send Rondo to Milwaukee for Larry Sanders. Then we're going to attach another first to Jeff Green and find a team with cap space to take him on. The plan is to build around you, Kevin, and Larry.
LeBron: Oh, you mean the same way Golden State created the cap space to sign Iguodala last year?
Ainge: And the best part is, I fleeced Brooklyn so badly that I still own all of my own draft picks and can still add young, cost controlled guys around you. Plus, we're a championship core and cets will flock here cheap. Interested?
LeBron: Way more than before.

I know which world I'd prefer were I a Celtics fan. Point being, you're vastly overstating how a Love trade would impact Boston's flexibility. And bear in mind, you only have to package picks with those guys to create immediate cap space. After next season, you'll have it either way.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I don't think either of the players they pick with #6 or #17 will be nearly as good as Love, at least not offensively. But the Celtics need more than one player. Also, I think you are underestimating the value of cap flexibility to a rebuilding team, and trading for Love would take a big chunk of that away.

Suppose LeBron exercises his ETO, and if Ainge hadn't traded for Love on draft night, he could have used the stretch provision on multiple players to clear enough cap space to make LeBron a max offer. Sure it's wildly unlikely, but with cap space, Ainge could at least make the call to LeBron's agent.

Edit: double post

 

[Brickowski]

It's a huge and perhaps unwarranted assumption that you can make all of those ancillary deals. Better to just waive players like Wallace, use the stretch provision, and keep the picks.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

It's a huge and perhaps unwarranted assumption that you can make all of those ancillary deals. Better to just waive players like Wallace, use the stretch provision, and keep the picks.

Sure, unless you want LeBron.

 

[Brickowski]

Sure, unless you want LeBron.

I'm not so sure LeBron would jump at the chance to play with Love.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I'm not so sure LeBron would jump at the chance to play with Love.

Really? Why? Is there anywhere in this thread where I can read up on your thoughts on Love? Aside from every other post, I mean.

 

[Brickowski]

Go ahead and name some of those other fish then.

Well, in 2015 you have DeAndre Jordan, Marc Gasol, LaMarcus Aldridge and Nikola Vucevic, all unrestricted. Some may sign extensions, but others may not for the same reason that Rondo hasn't.

Oh, and I forgot Kevin Love (if he doesn't sign an extension somewhere).

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Well, in 2015 you have DeAndre Jordan, Marc Gasol, LaMarcus Aldridge and Nikola Vucevic, all unrestricted. Some may sign extensions, but others may not for the same reason that Rondo hasn't.

Oh, and I forgot Kevin Love (if he doesn't sign an extension somewhere).

You could sign any of those guys even after a Love trade.

 

[Brickowski]

You could sign any of those guys even after a Love trade.

Why don't you put the salary numbers together, assuming that Green exercises his option and you extend Rondo.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Why don't you put the salary numbers together, assuming that Green exercises his option and you extend Rondo.

Rondo's not accepting an extension. And more often than not, players in Green's situation opt out for more guaranteed money, even if the annual average salary is much lower.

However, even if both of those things happened, they'd have Love at about 18, green at 9, Wallace at 10, and Rondo at about 15. Cap is estimated at just over 66 next year, and could be as high as 70 that year. With somewhere between 51-54 committed. Even if the cap stays where it is, you could buy out Wallace's last year and afford a max guy.

 

[Brickowski]

You've also got Anthony at 3M, Olynyck at $2M (assuming you don't trade both him and Sullinger in a Love deal) and Bradley's QO, unless you just let Avery walk. Plus the 6M cap hold for the MLE, unless you renounce it. Plus even with the stretch provision, Crash costs $5M on your cap. Also, I'm assuming you just let the 10.8M TPE expire rather than trying to bring in a player with it. And you need to have the cap go up in one year more than it ever has.

Is that your plan?

 

[wutang112878]

You've also got Anthony at 3M, Olynyck at $2M (assuming you don't trade both him and Sullinger in a Love deal) and Bradley's QO, unless you just let Avery walk. Plus the 6M cap hold for the MLE, unless you renounce it. Plus even with the stretch provision, Crash costs $5M on your cap. Also, I'm assuming you just let the 10.8M TPE expire rather than trying to bring in a player with it. And you need to have the cap go up in one year more than it ever has.

Is that your plan?

 

 
 
OLYNYK, No C
 
If this wasnt the 3rd or 4th time we were going through this then I wouldnt be such a prick about it.

 

[Auger34]

It's sort of shocking the amount of negative talk about Love in this thread. Loves problem is defense and more specifically lack of effort (although Zach Lowe has also pointed out that he tends to box out in search of rebounds and numbers over challenging shooters). However, as HRB pointed out, this is a stigma that has been attached to a lot of players (Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are two) who have had this label and shed it when playing around better players and in better systems.
I am not a T'Wolvea fan at all but there were a lot of twitter rumors and rumblings that Adelman had sort of checked out on the team and didn't really enforce strict defensive rules on the team which would have effected Love.
I think the people that dog Love and talk about how he is not worth a big trade package, this is an exercise for them to prove how smart they are and how much they know about basketball, advanced stats, etc. Love is a stud and a top 15 player by any metric or person that follows the sport closely. He does have his faults but he is one of if not the top player Boston will have a chance to acquire (unless we want to continually be disappointed with our lottery results)
Bottom line for me is if Love is willing to come here you absolutely make the trade for him. You then use your other assets (Celtics have a warchest with all the 1st round picks they have traded for) to trade for a rim protector and a 2 or a 3 who can create off the dribble

 

[wutang112878]

You've also got Anthony at 3M, Olynyck at $2M (assuming you don't trade both him and Sullinger in a Love deal) and Bradley's QO, unless you just let Avery walk. Plus the 6M cap hold for the MLE, unless you renounce it. Plus even with the stretch provision, Crash costs $5M on your cap. Also, I'm assuming you just let the 10.8M TPE expire rather than trying to bring in a player with it. And you need to have the cap go up in one year more than it ever has.

Is that your plan?

 
You let Bradley walk, thats a no brainer.  Um, you dont get the MLE if you are under the cap so how do you have a cap hold for the MLE?  If you dont have anything worthwhile to do with the TPE, yeah just let it expire.  Bringing someone in just to clog up your cap just so you can say you used the thing sounds like an awfully stupid strategy to me.
 
What crash are you talking about?

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

You've also got Anthony at 3M, Olynyck at $2M (assuming you don't trade both him and Sullinger in a Love deal) and Bradley's QO, unless you just let Avery walk. Plus the 6M cap hold for the MLE, unless you renounce it. Plus even with the stretch provision, Crash costs $5M on your cap. Also, I'm assuming you just let the 10.8M TPE expire rather than trying to bring in a player with it. And you need to have the cap go up in one year more than it ever has.

Is that your plan?

You're a year off. Anthony is gone by then, and Crash would cost 3.3 million stretched if you buy out his last season (it's double the length plus one). You do have a team option on Olynyk at 2.1 though. Also, there's no such thing as a MLE cap hold. Any cap hold for a player not currently on your roster is the league minimum.

And this was your plan, remember? You want to sign Vucevic, or whoever. I'm just showing you Love doesn't prohibit that.

 

[Auger34]

To add on to what I just posted, Lance Stephenson would actually be a good fit with that line-up. Trade Sullinger, Bass, 6 and 17 this year, and another future pick for Love, trade a 2nd rounder for Asik, and sign Stephenson.
PG- Rondo
SG- Lance
SF- Green
PF- Love
C- Asik
And you still have some future picks to add to this core. Would be a top 4 seed in the East with a chance to do some damage

 

[Cellar-Door]

To add on to what I just posted, Lance Stephenson would actually be a good fit with that line-up. Trade Sullinger, Bass, 6 and 17 this year, and another future pick for Love, trade a 2nd rounder for Asik, and sign Stephenson.
PG- Rondo
SG- Lance
SF- Green
PF- Love
C- Asik
And you still have some future picks to add to this core. Would be a top 4 seed in the East with a chance to do some damage

1. Who is the salary match for Asik.
2, Asik isn't getting traded for a 2nd unless it is to Philly or another team that can eat the whole salary.
3. where is the cap space to sign Stevenson come from.
 
You basically have the Celtics trading out $8M and taking back $24M, then somehow signing a FA?

 

[mcpickl]

To add on to what I just posted, Lance Stephenson would actually be a good fit with that line-up. Trade Sullinger, Bass, 6 and 17 this year, and another future pick for Love, trade a 2nd rounder for Asik, and sign Stephenson.
PG- Rondo
SG- Lance
SF- Green
PF- Love
C- Asik
And you still have some future picks to add to this core. Would be a top 4 seed in the East with a chance to do some damage

You have no cap space to sign Stephenson with this lineup unless you think he's taking the midlevel.

 

[Brickowski]

So lets see a year from now:
Rondo 15M
Love 20M
Stephenson 10M (??)
Green 9M
Asik 10M (assuming that's what it takes to get him to extend)
Olynyck 2.1 M (team option)

That's 66M, assuming you could fit Stephenson under your cap for more than the MLE, which he won't take. You don't have a bench yet, and even if you did you would not have a contending team.

The problem is not enough good, cost controlled players. You can get away with that if you are Miami, but ring whores won't flock to this team.

 

[mcpickl]

 
No, my plan is to add Love and then to continue to work to add the pieces around him to get to the point that the team wins a title.  That however doesnt happen overnight, instead its going to take 2-3 years at least.  If we were to add Love this offseason, save for a few minor free agent additions, I think this team would be essentially finished making moves until the deadline.  Then at the deadline we know what other holes we have on the roster and we see if we can make a move to address any of those holes.  Thats the generic process.  Unfortunately I cant tell you exactly which players are going to be available from now until we have the next parade, nor do I know the exact pipeline that is coming up through the draft.
 
Being more specific, this is what I would do:
- Trade for Love
- Add depth in free agency but do not pay a player more than $5M a season unless you think they are going to be a starting caliber player
- See if Sully and Love can play together
- If no, try to trade Sully at the deadline to address/upgrade at the 3/5
- Based on moves at deadline see how team progresses
- Come 2015 draft, try to package 2 first rounders & possibly player to move up to get a higher pick (in search of a real difference making star) or use these assets to trade for an established but young star type player
 
This brings us a calendar year into the future, and I think its pretty difficult to project what to do next because we have no idea how successful these moves might be.  Beyond that outlining specific moves is really an exercise in futility because we have very little clue what might happen. 

You have both Sullinger and Love on the team?
 
What did you trade for Love in this scenario?
 
Also, what's the backup plan if you trade for Love and he just walks and signs with the Lakers next summer?

 

[Auger34]

Can fit in Asik with the trade exception, but it does seem like that line-up doesn't work within the salary cap. Lance won't come here for the MLE and Brick is right in that this won't be the primary stop for the ring vultures.
So, basically unless they unload that Wallace contract they won't be able to bring in an FA along with Love and Asik

 

[Auger34]

So lets see a year from now:Rondo 15MLove 20MStephenson 10M (??)Green 9MAsik 10M (assuming that's what it takes to get him to extend)Olynyck 2.1 M (team option)That's 66M, assuming you could fit Stephenson under your cap for more than the MLE, which he won't take. You don't have a bench yet, and even if you did you would not have a contending team.The problem is not enough good, cost controlled players. You can get away with that if you are Miami, but ring whores won't flock to this team.

Think Stephenson will make $8 mil a year but doesn't matter, my idea won't work

 

[wutang112878]

You have both Sullinger and Love on the team?
 
What did you trade for Love in this scenario?
 
Also, what's the backup plan if you trade for Love and he just walks and signs with the Lakers next summer?

 
Brainfart.  Yeah I would assume Sully is part of the Love deal, so we can wipe those 2 steps out and turn them into "See what assets team develops into and consider trading to update at 3 and 5"
 
The backup plan is that sucks and we start all over, or you try to do a sign and trade.  Some of the biggest successes are also the biggest risks.  Remember Jerry West completely tore apart that Lakers team to have a chance at getting Shaq?  He had no backup plan whatsoever if Shaq didnt sign and he didnt just trade some assets for him, he intentionally pushed those assets off his roster.  This type of risk sucks, but risk is just unavoidable.

 

[mcpickl]

 
Brainfart.  Yeah I would assume Sully is part of the Love deal, so we can wipe those 2 steps out and turn them into "See what assets team develops into and consider trading to update at 3 and 5"
 
The backup plan is that sucks and we start all over, or you try to do a sign and trade.  Some of the biggest successes are also the biggest risks.  Remember Jerry West completely tore apart that Lakers team to have a chance at getting Shaq?  He had no backup plan whatsoever if Shaq didnt sign and he didnt just trade some assets for him, he intentionally pushed those assets off his roster.  This type of risk sucks, but risk is just unavoidable.

Sure, but Jerry West had Los Angeles going for him. Los Angeles is it's own backup plan.
 
Boston doesn't have that fallback. Seems crazy to me a year after blowing it up to push a bunch of chips in the middle in the hopes that Kevin Love suddenly wants to play in Boston. If he doesn't, you're blown up for the second time in three years but with less assets.
 
I could see it if Love was a move that makes you a contender, or at least the first domino in a series of moves to do so, but I don't think he is. I don't see free agents/ring chasers flocking to Boston to play with a Love/Rondo core like they did to play with KG/Pierce/Ray. I don't think Love and Rondo have that same pull.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Sure, but Jerry West had Los Angeles going for him. Los Angeles is it's own backup plan.
 
Boston doesn't have that fallback. Seems crazy to me a year after blowing it up to push a bunch of chips in the middle in the hopes that Kevin Love suddenly wants to play in Boston. If he doesn't, you're blown up for the second time in three years but with less assets.
 
I could see it if Love was a move that makes you a contender, or at least the first domino in a series of moves to do so, but I don't think he is. I don't see free agents/ring chasers flocking to Boston to play with a Love/Rondo core like they did to play with KG/Pierce/Ray. I don't think Love and Rondo have that same pull.

This thread has gone in circles so many times. Are we really back to 'What if Love won't sign here?' His "people" (read: agent) leaked to the press that he was very intrigued by Boston, and that he wasn't necessarily looking for a situation where he'd immediately be on a contender, but rather wanted to go to a well-run organization that had a plan to build a contender. Boston was specifically mentioned.

Nobody is advocating making this deal otherwise.

 

[mcpickl]

This thread has gone in circles so many times. Are we really back to 'What if Love won't sign here?' His "people" (read: agent) leaked to the press that he was very intrigued by Boston, and that he wasn't necessarily looking for a situation where he'd immediately be on a contender, but rather wanted to go to a well-run organization that had a plan to build a contender. Boston was specifically mentioned.

Nobody is advocating making this deal otherwise.

I've never left here. I don't believe those "reports" at all.
 
I think the only reason that report you're referring to specifically mentions Boston is because it came from CSNNE.
 
http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/source-love-would-come-celtics.
 
And even that report that got everyone here fired up didn't say Boston is his #1 choice or anything, just that he respects Ainge, the Celtics history and wouldn't rule Boston out. If a reporter from Dallas asked Loves' people the same questions, he'd hear he really respects Mark Cuban, loves Dirk and wouldn't rule out Dallas. So now he's signing in Dallas?
 
I've yet to see any concrete report that leads me to believe Love wants to play in Boston from anyone I'd trust.
 
I think most of those reports are people trying to connect dots that are a mile apart.
 
 
PS- plenty of people are advocating this deal otherwise.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This thread has gone in circles so many times. Are we really back to 'What if Love won't sign here?' His "people" (read: agent) leaked to the press that he was very intrigued by Boston, and that he wasn't necessarily looking for a situation where he'd immediately be on a contender, but rather wanted to go to a well-run organization that had a plan to build a contender. Boston was specifically mentioned.

Nobody is advocating making this deal otherwise.

Two things that are really killing the discussion in this thread. One, Love coming here as a rental when he has Boston on the teams he'd accept a trade to so he can maximize his contract next year. And Two, that Ainge would ever position himself to be under the salary cap to overpay for free agents that don't exist as a viable option while limiting his trade options by not holding valuable salary slots like Crash's will be soon.

 

[wutang112878]

Sure, but Jerry West had Los Angeles going for him. Los Angeles is it's own backup plan.
 
Boston doesn't have that fallback. Seems crazy to me a year after blowing it up to push a bunch of chips in the middle in the hopes that Kevin Love suddenly wants to play in Boston. If he doesn't, you're blown up for the second time in three years but with less assets.
 
I could see it if Love was a move that makes you a contender, or at least the first domino in a series of moves to do so, but I don't think he is. I don't see free agents/ring chasers flocking to Boston to play with a Love/Rondo core like they did to play with KG/Pierce/Ray. I don't think Love and Rondo have that same pull.

 
The Lakers arent immune from sucking.  After Kobe broke it off with Shaq they were just treading water for 3 years before they got to make the Gasol trade which really had nothing to do with the fact that they were LA, just that they found a great trade opportunity.  And since their last title they have been treading water again. Even if they were immune and we arent, what is our fall back plan then?  Only make moves when there is a 100% chance of success?  I can empathize that everyone is so concerned about giving up assets for an asset we might not have in the long run, but in the long run we are all dead. 
 
Would you compare Love to Harden?  Harden's value was a little more difficult to understand when he was playing behind Durant and Westbrook, but he most certainly was not a 'bring him in, this is our guy, our alpha dog and we have the #1 slot on our roster figured out' at the time that the Rockets traded for him.  But the Rockets brought him in, he made them a more desirable location and suddenly Howard went there when there was 0.001% chance that he might go there before Harden arrived.

 

[wutang112878]

At this point this thread kind of sucks because there are a few of us advocating for something and there is a rather large peanut gallery looking at an early sketch and telling us its not a finished Bonnet work of art.  And I'm guilty of this myself making counter arguments.
 
Can we just change the discussion.  Rather than explaining how something is wrong and wont work and this is the wrong guy, can we provide suggestions that would make the plan better?  For example: "I understand that you want to trade draft assets for a young star.  Instead of Love why dont we trade for LaMarcus Aldridge who is a little taller" 
 
And if your alternative is to make no move and wait and see how long it will take to get the core of your team through the draft, can you try to quantify how long that might take?  We could get really fancy and run some simulations on where our draft picks might fall and the expected player value of those picks and figure out how much expected player value we need before we make a 'lets go get a developed asset' move

 

[Brickowski]

Would you compare Love to Harden?  Harden's value was a little more difficult to understand when he was playing behind Durant and Westbrook, but he most certainly was not a 'bring him in, this is our guy, our alpha dog and we have the #1 slot on our roster figured out' at the time that the Rockets traded for him.  But the Rockets brought him in, he made them a more desirable location and suddenly Howard went there when there was 0.001% chance that he might go there before Harden arrived.

And they couldn't make it out of the first round, in part because Harden can't defend a chair and dominates the ball way too much on offense. Is that the player you want us to compare to Love?

And the pro-Love posters are just as guilty of not wanting to take risks. The draft all about taking risks.

 

[wutang112878]

And they couldn't make it out of the first round, in part because Harden can't defend a chair and dominates the ball way too much on offense. Is that the player you want us to compare to Love?

And the pro-Love posters are just as guilty of not wanting to take risks. The draft all about taking risks.

 
I'm not sure which of these you fall into:
- Your reading skills are amazingly bad and you completely missed my last post
- You completely disregard the need to change how we address this topic
- You recognize the need but are so determined to demonstrate how correct you are, you had to post this anyway
None of these are a compliment
 
This is the response that a marriage counselor would suggest you make:
I understand what you mean (with empathetic look on your face).  Adding Harden improved the team a bit and they were able to add another piece.  However, it seems that wasnt enough.  Do you think that wasnt the piece they needed or do they need more pieces?

 

[Brickowski]

Adding Harden improved the team a bit and they were able to add another piece.  However, it seems that wasnt enough.  Do you think that wasnt the piece they needed or do they need more pieces?

Both. And Howard wasn't the piece they needed either. Morey erred.

 

[wutang112878]

Both. And Howard wasn't the piece they needed either. Morey erred.

 
Which gets you closer to a title: adding Howard or doing nothing?
 
 

I'll summarize Brick's path to Green 18:

Step 1: Draft Dario Saric
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit

 
I was thinking this but we are on the same page:
 

 

[Brickowski]

My plan:

1. Draft the BPA at #6
2. Draft the BPA at #17
3. Use the TPA to bring in one more piece of the puzzle (preferably not Asik)
4. Develop your draft picks along with Sullinger and Olynyk.
5. Trade Rondo, Green, Bass and Wallace (if you can). Hopefully one of those deals will bring back a youngish interior defender.
6. Win 30-35 games in 2014-15
7. Make two more good draft picks in 2015.
8. Make your move on draft night or over the Summer of 2015 to acquire one or two stars, either via free agency or trade.

 

[wutang112878]

Basically you are suggesting to think of the 2014 draft as the 2004 draft, a slow collection of assets. 
 
How many years in the league do you think you need before you can win a title and how old would the young stars you would want in 2015 be?  Ultimately our goals are very similar use assets to get young star.  I think in 2015 the star you might want might just be Love.  Or do you just fundamentally do not believe he is a guy you want to build around?  Thats probably the most important question.