Celtics vs Heat ECF Redux Discussion Thread

Rook05

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I honestly don’t know why there is so much reluctance to call a time out to stop runs. The 9-0 spurt in the third was a fine opportunity, but nope, let’s let them keep fighting for air. Contrast with Spo immediately pulling the plug after a 7-0 run in the fourth.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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The Heat were 2-2 against the Celtics this year and Butler missed 2 of those games. They match up tremendously well and the talent gap, while real, is overstated. Plus the Celtics are almost always good to cough up 1-2 games per series. Nothing easy with them. NOTHING EASSSYYYYY.
Well I think we all agree that they weren’t going to sweep so the Heat had to win a game or two at some point. If they shit their pants again and lose on Friday I’ll be surprised. I’m going to guess they win Friday and split in Miami, then win games 5 and 6. I wouldn’t be shocked if they win the next three and come home up 3-1. I’ll be shocked if they come back down 3-1.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think Spoelstra is great, he coaches well... but a lot of our struggles on D had very little to do with strategy and a lot to do with execution, we were switching on the ball and sending an extra guy at Jimmy a lot, the problem was mostly execution, we far too often made the help late, or let him go baseline instead of herding him inside. Rob in particular made a number of mistakes where he dropped too deep. even then our halfcourt D wasn't that bad, they did a lot of damage in transition and semi-transition when guys were slow getting back or didn't find the shooters, and off poor box-out offensive boards. On offense we were getting what we wanted frequently, we just committed a ton of bad turnovers.

Spo is a better coach than Joe, but this game was lost in execution not gameplanning. We turn it over less, we make our FTs, we box out, guys run to the shooters instead of jogging.. we win this game pretty easily.
Excellent post.

The Celtics didn't execute, especially in the second half and glaringly down the stretch (eg Tatum leading the Heat in hockey assists down the stretch). That impact far out shadowed the delta between Spo and Mazzulla.

People are making too much of the coach experience thing because narratives. Its real but nowhere near as meaningful as how the players do their jobs.
 

SoxFanInPdx

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I say this in all seriousness... if you think they lost this game even 5% because of coaching you're insane. That's the laziest WEEI caller response to every loss. They lost because the players played like garbage. Spo didn't do anything special, Joe didn't do anything particularly bad. They lost because Jaylen can't dribble, Tatum played poorly in the 2nd half, and the entire team played terrible D in the 3rd, highlighted by guys leaving shooters and TL jumping at everything
Yeah...whatever you say. Coaching matters in these games and one is genius and the other looks completely over his head.
 

bosockboy

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I honestly don’t know why there is so much reluctance to call a time out to stop runs. The 9-0 spurt in the third was a fine opportunity, but nope, let’s let them keep fighting for air. Contrast with Spo immediately pulling the plug after a 7-0 run in the fourth.
No timeouts in a 45 point third quarter is tough to swallow.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah...whatever you say. Coaching matters in these games and one is genius and the other looks completely over his head.
If the Celtics decide not to play defense, I don't think that Zombie Red can do anything coaching wise. That's not a defense of Joe. They win when they try and focus on defense. If not, everything else has to go perfectly. Miami shot 54% from the field and 52% from 3 with 12 turnovers. It's a miracle that it was still a game at the end.
 

Cellar-Door

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Can you name a single adjustment Spoelstra made in the second half?
he took 1 timeout and everyone went nuts. It's amazing to me that 3 years and 3 coaches into this people really think the coach is why the team does the same thing over and over again. It's amazing that the Celtics apparently only hire morons for coaches, and that Brad Stevens went from one of the consensus best coaches in the league to a moron in a season.
 

Imbricus

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I only saw the first half of the game. But I saw a Celtics team that was clearly better, and was on top by 9 points at the end of the second quarter, even though the Heat were 46% from three.

I don't know what the hell happened in the second half. Joe's reluctance to call a timeout is still utterly baffling to me; all he needs to do is watch how Spoelstra does it, on cue, any time the Celts build up any momentum. As for the three-point shooting: in the NBA, any team that shoots more than 50% from three for an entire game is probably going to win against another team that's about league average (or worse, as the Celtics were last night). Unfortunately, Miami has the shooters who can do that to you sometimes. Whether they can manage to do it again is the big question.
 

NomarsFool

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Not a rhetorical question, what happened to the lob to Williams play in the second half? Did they run it again?

Was something up with Smart? Seemed like he went back to the locker room, but then was back in the game.

Pritchard is a head scratcher. He absolutely wasn’t the reason they lost, but he’s like #10 on the depth chart? Not only did he play in a key moment where they got smoked, but he played ALOT.

Jaylen looked like crap all night. Couldn’t seem to hit anything.

I’m not sure exactly what was going on, but my impression was that even when Tatum was scoring, he seemed to be scoring all by himself. It was like the ball never went to anyone else nor was anyone else in the action. It was effective for awhile, but just seemed different than their usual offense.

I didn’t think they were going to win, even when they clawed back, but wow was that one of the worst meltdowns I’ve seen from a star in a key moment. I hope Tatum can bounce back. That’s got to sting a lot.
 

tims4wins

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Yes, from Jaylen and Tatum turnover meltdowns, too. People expecting to see Celtics in 5…I mean at some point we reach the definition of insanity here, right? How many times do we have to see it with this team to not expect it?

Also, the Heat are pretty good.
Guilty. I went to bed at halftime and figured the series was going 5 games max. Ugh.
 

128

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Spo is a better coach than Joe, but this game was lost in execution not gameplanning. We turn it over less, we make our FTs, we box out, guys run to the shooters instead of jogging.. we win this game pretty easily.
Agreed. Spo-vs.-Joe is an easy storyline, but this was still a winnable game for the C's.
 

128

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Can you name a single adjustment Spoelstra made in the second half?
He instructed his players not to many any shots, and they complied.

This loss is on the C's players, more than anybody else. As many others have noted, these lapses occurred regularly under Stevens and then last season under Ime.
 

128

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This, from Jared Weiss in The Athletic, sums it up:

But the Celtics are at their best when their backs are against the wall and their worst when they can’t even feel the wall behind them anymore. That’s not the Heat. Butler is maniacal from tip to buzzer.
 

AlNipper49

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Excellent post.

The Celtics didn't execute, especially in the second half and glaringly down the stretch (eg Tatum leading the Heat in hockey assists down the stretch). That impact far out shadowed the delta between Spo and Mazzulla.

People are making too much of the coach experience thing because narratives. Its real but nowhere near as meaningful as how the players do their jobs.
I agree. Joe's biggest sin thus far is apparently usage of time outs. Even if this were a mortal coaching sin, it would also be extremely defensible given he's a rookie coach. It's not like he's a baseball coach out there batting Darren Lewis leadoff. He's a rookie head coach, a dude who performed excellently in his first abrupt hiring. I think it's ok to criticize how he's using the timeouts, but I'm not sure that we can use it as the sole qualifier for his coaching ability... yet.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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The thing with the timeouts is that there's zero downside to calling an early TO in the third to try and refocus the team. None. Joe looks impotent and bewildered when they finally get to a TV timeout, the lead is gone, and he's chucking his clipboard on the ground in the huddle. This team and its core players have repeatedly shown that they lose focus and get untracked and Joe is out here trying to stick a square peg in a round hole and toughen them up by forcing them to play through it. Call a timeout. If it works it works. If it doesn't then so be it, but ffs stop banging your head against the wall to try and toughen this unit up in the ECF.

Further, play Grant Williams. If you put him out there and he stinks up the joint, yank him. The guy played 29+ minutes in five of seven games versus the Heat last year in the playoffs and now he can't even touch the court? He played 25, 31, 33, and 36 mins in the regular season v. MIA and actually made some decent contributions in those games.
 

lovegtm

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I put this in the game thread, but feels appropriate here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/13ko7pi/marcus_smart_on_timeouts_joes_real_big_on_not/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb

That's pretty damning stuff from Smart. I wonder if it was intentional to make it sound like the coach is a boob?
How in the world can you interpret this as trying to make the coach look bad? He's saying the players played like shit, and calling timeouts doesn't help when they are.

He's probably right too.
 

lovegtm

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I just don't get Robert Williams dropping back so much on D. These guys can hit open jumpers all day long. Its right out of Coach Buds playbook, and its not going to work against the Heat

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUjhwu0qVw
I wonder how much of this is TL's execution vs. what the scheme is. He has been executing really poorly defensively a lot of the playoffs. Mostly it's been jumping out of his pants on anything, but you can find any number of bad closeouts and big cushions in the Philly series.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I really disagree with this strongly. Spolestra sets his team up really well to make life miserable for Tatum and Brown. They understand our offense and setup in almost a 1-2-2 zone and build a wall for the ball screen/double ball screen and force our stars, neither of which are good dribblers, to have to dribble sideways in traffic and they get Butler opportunities to jump passing lanes and trap and make plays. The players execute but it’s a really smart setup by the coach putting them in a position to succeed.

Contrast that down the other end where Buletr seems to eternally be isolated 1 v 1 in a lot of space in a matchup of his choosing where he dribbles into the paint with much less resistance than our guys ever see. And they execute that time after time down the floor getting their best player into good spaces so he can do what he does.

Timeouts don’t guarantee a change of outcome but he called timeout at the first hint of our 4th quarter run and has coached his team well enough over multiple years that he was able to calm them down enough to get better execution and blunt the momentum. It’s entirely possible the Celtics could have made more shots and won but their coach has a really good feel for his team and a really good way of getting his best player consistently involved and effective
I only watched the 2Q and 3Q and I can point to 3 plays off the top of my head that were just mental errors: Brogdan falling asleep and letting Butler cut to the basket and then giving up the And-1. TL throwing the ball back to Kevin Love as he was trying to chase down a rebound for a layup; and someone (Brogdan?) leaving Strus alone for a wide-open corner 3 at the end of the 3Q.

Those plays (and others) have nothing to do with coaching.
Nothing easy with them. NOTHING EASSSYYYYY.
This I agree with.
 

Devizier

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I just don't get Robert Williams dropping back so much on D. These guys can hit open jumpers all day long. Its right out of Coach Buds playbook, and its not going to work against the Heat

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUjhwu0qVw
Yes, and it’s worth mentioning the Celtics often got roasted with him on the floor. I actually thought going back to the small lineup would be better, even if Butler gets more points.
 

Ed Hillel

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I don’t understand what’s happened with Rob. He seems physically pretty good. He’s gone from being the best defender in the league for half a season to whatever this is.
 

kelpapa

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How in the world can you interpret this as trying to make the coach look bad? He's saying the players played like shit, and calling timeouts doesn't help when they are.

He's probably right too.
Agreed. I was expecting to hear some pretty damning stuff. Nothing controversial there at all.
 

Red Averages

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I don’t understand what’s happened with Rob. He seems physically pretty good. He’s gone from being the best defender in the league for half a season to whatever this is.
I mean they were pretty dominant for the two games prior to this one.
 

Ed Hillel

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I mean they were pretty dominant for the two games prior to this one.
I’m talking about Williams specifically. Al was the guy holding Embiid down as the game wore on, and with Williams in they were still struggling to close out on shooters as they did last night.
 

Red Averages

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I’m talking about Williams specifically. Al was the guy holding Embiid down as the game wore on, and with Williams in they were still struggling to close out on shooters as they did last night.
Huh? Did we watch different games? TimeLord was +18 in Game 6 and +19 in Game 7. You think he was a... liability?
 

Cellar-Door

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Not a rhetorical question, what happened to the lob to Williams play in the second half? Did they run it again?

Was something up with Smart? Seemed like he went back to the locker room, but then was back in the game.

Pritchard is a head scratcher. He absolutely wasn’t the reason they lost, but he’s like #10 on the depth chart? Not only did he play in a key moment where they got smoked, but he played ALOT.

Jaylen looked like crap all night. Couldn’t seem to hit anything.

I’m not sure exactly what was going on, but my impression was that even when Tatum was scoring, he seemed to be scoring all by himself. It was like the ball never went to anyone else nor was anyone else in the action. It was effective for awhile, but just seemed different than their usual offense.

I didn’t think they were going to win, even when they clawed back, but wow was that one of the worst meltdowns I’ve seen from a star in a key moment. I hope Tatum can bounce back. That’s got to sting a lot.
They ran the lob 3-4 times in the 3rd, I think all of them got tipped, 2 turnovers and one got scooped off the floor for a putback
 

lovegtm

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Huh? Did we watch different games? TimeLord was +18 in Game 6 and +19 in Game 7. You think he was a... liability?
He wasn't a liability against Philly, because they don't have the personnel or scheme to cause him (much) trouble.
 

benhogan

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Yes, and it’s worth mentioning the Celtics often got roasted with him on the floor. I actually thought going back to the small lineup would be better, even if Butler gets more points.
Ha, I was on the opposite side of the fence there. I love 2BIGZ and think going larger was the better solution, especially after G6 and 7 with Philly. o_O BUT I probably have to rethink it.

Either way dropping off Bam, Jimmy & the rest of the Heat is a recipe for open shots.
 

Ed Hillel

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Huh? Did we watch different games? TimeLord was +18 in Game 6 and +19 in Game 7. You think he was a... liability?
What I said is he doesn’t look at all like the same guy from the second half last year and I stand by that. He can’t close shooters like he used to.
 

BigSoxFan

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They're like the anti-dynasty Patriots
Right down to the lack of titles. This team has all the ingredients to win a title. It's up to them to determine whether or not they'll do what's necessary to attain immortality. The early results are not good. The Heat won't fall apart like a Harden/Doc/Embiid combo. You get down 3-1 against this team, a real possibility now, you're toast.
 

benhogan

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I mean they were pretty dominant for the two games prior to this one.
Yea, I'm really scratching my head about the Celtics' defense last night. Part of me thinks the Heat won't continue to shoot over 50% from 3, but they did get great looks.

It's almost like Joe reluctantly started out with TL/Al, but really wanted to play 3 guard sets, going as far as playing Pritchard 12 minutes? But then CJM turns around and only plays White 21 minutes? Some odd rotation decisions.

The Mazzulla Defamation League can save it, last night was on the players, but it isn't very hard to see Miami's HC advantage over Boston (which isn't shocking)
 

bosockboy

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Defensive passiveness and turnovers are their two bugaboos, and they usually seem to intersect. I’ll ride or die with the C’s my entire life and am hopeful they get this done, but for such a massively talented team, they just aren’t that enjoyable to watch.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I only watched the 2Q and 3Q and I can point to 3 plays off the top of my head that were just mental errors: Brogdan falling asleep and letting Butler cut to the basket and then giving up the And-1. TL throwing the ball back to Kevin Love as he was trying to chase down a rebound for a layup; and someone (Brogdan?) leaving Strus alone for a wide-open corner 3 at the end of the 3Q.

Those plays (and others) have nothing to do with coaching.

This I agree with.
Brogdon will never get the press for it, because it's easier to find other scapegoats who are more enticing, but Jesus Fucking Christ, he is SO BAD on the defensive end. It's getting hard to watch, and when they get Butler on him, on ball, off ball, doesn't matter, he gets chewed up and spit out, leaving the rest of our defense scrambling around to rotate.
 

Helmet Head

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Williams defense was a problem last night. He continued to played this quasi drop coverage off screens and even when he was on Bam 1 on 1, which didn’t work out too well in either case. It worked against the 76ers, largely because of Tucker but it’s not going to work against the Heat. I would like to see him get a little more aggressive defensively.
 

jmcc5400

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Brogdon will never get the press for it, because it's easier to find other scapegoats who are more enticing, but Jesus Fucking Christ, he is SO BAD on the defensive end. It's getting hard to watch, and when they get Butler on him, on ball, off ball, doesn't matter, he gets chewed up and spit out, leaving the rest of our defense scrambling around to rotate.
Yes, Butler was methodically finding the switch he wanted - Brogdon or Pritch (??!!) - and roasting it. I’d find some minutes for Grant.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Who would Grant take minutes from? In earlier season matchups, TimeLord wasn't even dressed but you still need minutes from him now.

Do we see TimeLord take 15-17 minutes and Al and Grant handle the bulk of the minutes?

Game 2 of the season saw minutes distributed as:

  • AL - 34 minutes
  • Grant - 25 minutes
  • Vonleh - 15 minutes

First game of a back to back in late November/early December saw this:

  • AL - 33 minutes
  • Grant - 31 minutes
  • Kornet - 15 minutes
Second game of the back to back saw:

  • AL - 34 minutes
  • Grant - 33 minutes
  • Kornet - 10 minutes

Final matchup of the season, second game of a back to back in late January therefore no Al, saw this:

  • Grant - 36 minutes
  • TimeLord - 31 minutes
  • Kornet - 13 minutes
  • Blake - 4 minutes
 

Toe Nash

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Yea, I'm really scratching my head about the Celtics' defense last night. Part of me thinks the Heat won't continue to shoot over 50% from 3, but they did get great looks.

It's almost like Joe reluctantly started out with TL/Al, but really wanted to play 3 guard sets, going as far as playing Pritchard 12 minutes? But then CJM turns around and only plays White 21 minutes? Some odd rotation decisions.

The Mazzulla Defamation League can save it, last night was on the players, but it isn't very hard to see Miami's HC advantage over Boston (which isn't shocking)
I thought the usage of Tatum was really weird too. He had been having a solid offensive game, particularly getting to the line, and then was on the bench for the first 4 minutes of the 4th and then when he came out he wasn't touching the ball. Feels like he should be leading the team in FGA every game unless they are running away with things or Brown is going supernova (which he wasn't). Especially with how he had been playing the last 5 quarters.

I agree two bigs is not needed, especially when Rob isn't playing great on D, and more Grant and DWhite would be better. Feels like they overthought things in general.
 

NomarsFool

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I don't know why some of the press has been "Miami steals game 1". They didn't steal it, in any way, in my opinion. They beat the Celtics. This wasn't some weird game where they got lucky and came up with the win in the end. They embarrassed the Celtics in the 3rd and fully deserved the win. Yes, the C's shot themselves in the foot in their attempt to get it close at the end - but that's it. It was just getting it close.