Celtics vs Heat ECF Redux Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
- Start date
I just need to see a few things tonight.
Figure out how to fucking stop Jimmy Butler from getting any defender he wants on him at any time. I mean, this really shouldn't be that fucking hard. Every other possession involves Butler on someone like Brogdon or Horford after a switch down low on a screen, and then Jimmy and that defender on a completely cleared out side of the floor. The C's invariably have to double late, the ball swings, open fucking 3. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Figure out how to get any fucking switches into favorable matchups on offense. Even when the C's get a switch into a favorable matchup, say Tatum on Bam at the top of the circle, here comes another Celtic to set a second screen, pull them out of that favorable matchup into a worse one, and then allow Bam to roll back to the basket and rim protect. It's driving me fucking insane. The minute Tatum or Brown or even Brogdon get into a favorable match up, the entire fucking team should clear out, just like Miami does when Butler gets his matchup.
If Miami rolls into that 2-3 zone, Tatum should immediately park himself at the foul line and go to work, either ripping through guys, or kicking back out. Enough with the passing around the perimeter hoping to get a look that probably won't fall or trying to drive through the teeth of the defense.
And I want MORE FUCKING PACE.
That's it. Show me that, and I'll accept the results, but watching this team do the same shit over and over again with the same results is making me legit fucking nuts.
Figure out how to fucking stop Jimmy Butler from getting any defender he wants on him at any time. I mean, this really shouldn't be that fucking hard. Every other possession involves Butler on someone like Brogdon or Horford after a switch down low on a screen, and then Jimmy and that defender on a completely cleared out side of the floor. The C's invariably have to double late, the ball swings, open fucking 3. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Figure out how to get any fucking switches into favorable matchups on offense. Even when the C's get a switch into a favorable matchup, say Tatum on Bam at the top of the circle, here comes another Celtic to set a second screen, pull them out of that favorable matchup into a worse one, and then allow Bam to roll back to the basket and rim protect. It's driving me fucking insane. The minute Tatum or Brown or even Brogdon get into a favorable match up, the entire fucking team should clear out, just like Miami does when Butler gets his matchup.
If Miami rolls into that 2-3 zone, Tatum should immediately park himself at the foul line and go to work, either ripping through guys, or kicking back out. Enough with the passing around the perimeter hoping to get a look that probably won't fall or trying to drive through the teeth of the defense.
And I want MORE FUCKING PACE.
That's it. Show me that, and I'll accept the results, but watching this team do the same shit over and over again with the same results is making me legit fucking nuts.
The 21-22 Warriors were better than the 97 and 98 Bulls but not as good as the 92 Bulls that beat Portland.
Preach.
Especially the bolded, underlined portion. Its inexplicable that this team can't hunt match ups the way that literally every other good fucking team can. Last night, every time down the floor the Lakers set a pick to get Jokic or Murray on LeBron. It drives me absolutely insane that the Celtics can't do this
The 97 Bulls won 69 games (tied for 3rd best in NBA history), had a net rating of +12.0 (2nd best in NBA history), and went 15-4 in the playoffs. They were far better than the 22 Warriors who won 53 games, had a net rating of +5.6 and went 14-6 in the playoffs. The only reason the 97 Bulls aren't in the argument for best team in NBA history is because they were clearly a [very slightly] lesser version of the 96 team.
The talent level in the NBA was historically weak from 97 - 99, and they added 2 expansion teams in 96 that watered the league down even more. Even the elite talent was blah. Tim Hardway was a top 4 guard that year.
Look at the rosters of some of the playoffs teams. The 6th Seed Hornets would have been a contender for Wemby in today's league.
Edit: Anthony Mason was 3rd team All-NBA forward. In 2023, we had players like Kawhi, PG, and Durant that didn't make the team.
Last edited:
Any comparison to a 1990s team (Blazers, Sonics, Jazz) that ignores the team winning all those championships doesn't really work.
When they set a screen for Butler, the Celtics just switch automatically. Miami knows this, so they can attack whichever guy Butler wants to go after. But those ball screens are above the three point line. Boston would be WAY better off with a slight hedge and have Butler's guy go under the screen. Make him take pull up jumpers from three point land.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJKnmrLPNO8
0:34 mark - The screen is being set 27-30 feet from the basket, and Tatum tries to fight over it. Why? Butler isn't gonna pull up from there. And if he is, that's a major win for Boston. That's not Butler's game at all. By trying to fight over it, Tatum now exposes Horford - either Horford has to come up on Butler, which leaves Bam for a dive to the rim, or he sticks with Bam and Butler gets an easy pull up jumper in his comfort zone.
4:04 mark - Again, the screen is set beyond the three point line. Butler has the ball, what, 35 feet from the hoop? And Marcus Smart just gives up the switch, putting Grant Williams on Butler, which is exactly the matchup that Miami wanted. Just go under the screen, Marcus, and if Butler wants to shoot from 30 feet, let him. But no, he just gives up the switch, letting Butler have the matchup he desires.
Guarding Butler isn't easy - he's a really good scorer. But the way the Celtics are defending the P&R when Butler has the ball is absolutely mind-bogglingly stupid. And it's easily fixable, without resorting to double teams.
I would like to make sweet, sweet love to this post.
Watching Butler on one side of the court against Grant, while the rest of the Miami team stands on the other side is great fucking offense. I simply do not understand why Coach Joe can't figure out how to put Tatum or Brown in those positions on the other end, ever. Instead, we have them at the top of the key with the C's bringing multiple screeners, and of course defenders with them, and causing so much fucking traffic. The spacing on either end of the court is mind boggling.
Yep. I’ve been saying this all series. But what I would also say is we are worrying too much about this. Butler isn’t beating us with his scoring right now. He was great in Game 1 based on his balanced contributions, his defense and steals, and very good scoring driven by getting to the line (35 points on 25 fga). Since then he scored 26 on 25 shots in Game 2 and 16 on 13 shots in Game 3.
The problem for our defense is Miami’s role players scoring at will. A lot of that is driven by them being insanely hot, but we can do a lot more to make them less comfortable. I’d prioritize effort and proximity to shooters over switching tactics with Butler because even the guys Butler is hunting are holding their own against him. We should still be going under more. It would almost certainly be better. But it matters less than staying home and being aggressive on Strus, Vincent, Martin, and Richardson because if we take them out of their games it becomes really hard for Miami to score efficiently unless Butler is living at the line.
The problem is that all the switching lets Miami dictate the pace and matchups. And it immediately throws the Celtics' defense into chaos, and Butler just picks them apart with either his shooting or passing. Just sag off the screen, go under it, and don't let Butler dictate things. And if by going under, it exposes them to Butler hoisting from 25 feet....oh man you live with that every day and twice on Sunday.
They had JB fight through screens to guard Harden at least one game; why can't they do with that Butler?
They were also better than the 1989-1990 Pistons team that beat the Blazers in the finals. The Pistons won in 5 but Games 4 and 5 (both Pistons wins) were decided by 5 points total. Portland couldn't hit any shots from 3 all series.
I mentioned the comparison in one of the game threads of Game 1 or 2. I was in my 20s during that time, and this Cs team reminds me a lot of those Blazers teams. The Blazers teams were better than current Cs team, but they had the same lovely mix of great talent and boneheadedness.
Drexler:Tatum
Kersey:Brown
Porter:Smart
Buck Williams:Horford
Cliff Robinson:RWilliams
Ainge:Brogdan
Boston could have been going under on the Butler p/r all series. It’s an obvious adjustment.
One of the reasons why Boston hasn’t exploited switches better is the Heat makes more of a commitment to doubling the star player in the p/r, and his teammates haven’t been able to capitalize enough once he is Forced to give up the ball.
The other is when Boston starts cooking on offense, Miami jumps into their zone, and Boston hasn’t hit their open shots and hasn’t handled the ball inside the zone once they take the ball out of Tatum’s hands through aggressive double teaming.
One of the reasons why Boston hasn’t exploited switches better is the Heat makes more of a commitment to doubling the star player in the p/r, and his teammates haven’t been able to capitalize enough once he is Forced to give up the ball.
The other is when Boston starts cooking on offense, Miami jumps into their zone, and Boston hasn’t hit their open shots and hasn’t handled the ball inside the zone once they take the ball out of Tatum’s hands through aggressive double teaming.
instead of constantly running PnR's (or multiple PnR's on the same possession) at the top of the key, once in a while, we try to run an off ball screen so that when Tatum or Brown catch it, they are already in a mismatch? And then we clear the lane and let them work.
Just a thought.
Or mid post Tatum. Or post him at the FT line. Or have him get the ball in position to do work on the low block/baseline. Running offense when all five defenders are staring at you, as happens when JT initiates from up top, is not my first choice for him, especially with the handsy defense Miami has established with the refs
So why did they extend him? If they felt this way, wouldn't they have just let him finish the year out on the interim tag and see what happened before they made a decision on his future? Seems to me that they have a level of confidence in him that shouldn't really be swayed by a 4 game sample size.
They played really spotty from the ASG on. It’s not 4 games. Being pushed by the Hawks and surviving an elimination game with Philly didn’t help.
Maybe they got fooled. They saw a rookie HC leading his team to a great start, highly efficient offense, etc., the team was cohesive, and figured sky is the limit.
Or alternately, maybe they thought that he wouldn't get the necessary buy-in and respect unless he was given the title.
Both of those scenarios would be understandable, but would also seem... shortsighted?
There was no "Fire Joe" rumblings until this series so it is 4 games. He's 34 years old and was put in a pretty difficult situation this year. Lots of expectations and he's in the ECF. You don't do that without being at least a good coach
So if they fire Mazzulla for a more experienced coach and they don't win it all next year do they fire that coach too?
There were rumblings about Joe not being up to snuff before the playoffs started. Simmons has been banging the drum pretty much all year. KOC thinks every coach sucks, but he also has said he didn’t think Mazzulla was ready for prime time. Multiple Boston beat writers have questioned his timeout usage and rotations all year.
I don’t think anyone thought that the team would get punked like they have in this series in any series.Game 3 was so bad that it’s going to lead to people thinking everything needs to be re-examined
No they trade Brown likely, or Smart and a few others. You can throw out the coach this off-season because he was inexperienced, and a promoted temporary hire and you say "we think he'll be a good coach, but he stepped into a tough spot and wasn't ready and we have a short window" it's the last shield this core gets. After that it's culling season.
The recent comments from Smart, Brogdon and Al about loss of defensive identity and Joe's struggles to learn on the fly...
A steady stream of whispers and noise that there are chemistry issues...
The story of confrontation between players and brass...
Either there's a coordinated hatchet job unfolding, or Mazzulla has lost the team. I'm inclined to believe the latter.
I don't see how he keeps the job when the season ends. There's no way that Brad wants to have a fourth head coach in four years, vastly preferring to bring in some experienced voices to be assistant coaches. But the NBA is a players' league, and if the the stars don't want Joe, or a significant percentage of the team doesn't, then he's done.
What would been morbidly fascinating is if Tatum wants Mazzulla but no one else does. What does Brad do then?
A steady stream of whispers and noise that there are chemistry issues...
The story of confrontation between players and brass...
Either there's a coordinated hatchet job unfolding, or Mazzulla has lost the team. I'm inclined to believe the latter.
I don't see how he keeps the job when the season ends. There's no way that Brad wants to have a fourth head coach in four years, vastly preferring to bring in some experienced voices to be assistant coaches. But the NBA is a players' league, and if the the stars don't want Joe, or a significant percentage of the team doesn't, then he's done.
What would been morbidly fascinating is if Tatum wants Mazzulla but no one else does. What does Brad do then?
Keep Mazzulla and ship everyone else out of town (though I doubt it's really everyone else, it's probably 2-3 guys, I'd guess Jaylen, Smart and Brogdon) Tatum is your MVP shortlist guy.
Interesting. I think I agree with you. But that's a hard conversation to have with Tatum, right? It's unlikely that the pieces you get back dealing the NoMoJoe contingent will be able to get back to the Finals/ECF in the immediate future. How do you convey to an MVP candidate, "We're going to take a significant step backwards so that you and Joe can work together to get to Banner 18. But give us time and we'll assemble the team we need."
How does Tatum react to that timeline shift -- when he's been to five ECF's and one final already?
Has the potential to be a crazy offseason.
I don't think it happens, because I think Tatum likes Joe, but isn't on a "Joe or nobody" level. Also if he was it's more than just catering to your best player at that point, it's also a recognition that your two stars are perhaps fundamentally incompatible if they are that strenuously opposed to each other over the coach. Fights that split the lockerroom over coaches are almost always really about much more than the coach. I also wouldn't assume trades necessarily must mean a mult-year reset. If you're willing to take older players, you might get as much or more win now talent, particularly for Brown who if he'll re-sign teams can see as a rebuild centerpiece.
I get you guys are dealing in hypotheticals. But an Occam's Razor reading of the Woj tweet and other public comments suggests:
- The team has quit on its coach, 1983-Celts style (don't forget, this was the last C's team to get swept in shocking fashion vs an underdog opponent)
- Other players are fully out on CJM, but Tatum is like, "Eh, Joe, he's a nice guy, I don't mind him." IOW, he's not indicating a strong preference but just being diplomatic.
- CJM will be fired by Thurs. All players, Tatum included, will be fine with it.
I wouldn't read much into any of this stuff either way. Woj's tweet was from the same source as his 25 other bullshit Udoka tweets over the last couple months... Udoka's agent.
As to the rest, a lot of it is parsing out vague statements to fit an ongoing narrative. My guess is that none of these guys really are going to be that upset either way... if Joe gets fired, oh well, if he stays... oh well.
Exactly. There is no certainty a new coach would do any better. I mean, jeez the guy is a half a year into his coaching career and he and his team are in the final four of the entire league. He's done well, and he deserves to have an offseason where he's actually aware of the fact that he's the head coach. I'm surprised at the overreaction by many, but maybe I shouldn't be. I used to think Chad Finn, for one, was measured in his takes.
It takes a lot for me to say well played, Dan Shaughnessy.
View: https://twitter.com/dan_shaughnessy/status/1661150503659610116?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/dan_shaughnessy/status/1661150503659610116?s=46
Is it really the right move to not play the double bigs against Miami? During the regular season Williams and Horford played 332 minutes together across 28 games (remember- Williams played just 35 games total this season) and the Celtics had a 103.1 defensive rating with them on the floor together, a noticeable upgrade over their 110.6 team defensive rating for the season. The offense did not suffer either, with the Celtics’ 119.0 offensive rating with them together also a slight upgrade over their 117.3 team mark for the season. Our defense has sucked all series, and Al Horford and pretty much the rest of the team has said that they prefer playing the double big lineup as much as possible. But yeah, Mazzulla knows better I guess...
Make or miss league…
But the intensity ramped way up on defense, particularly once the shots started to fall. Amazing how sloppy the Heat got once the Celtics started pressuring them and stuffing passing lanes.
The Celtics made the extra pass in the 2nd half, and we’re able to get off a ton of 3s… with space.
Let’s see how Vincent’s ankle responds to one day rest, with a flight.
But the intensity ramped way up on defense, particularly once the shots started to fall. Amazing how sloppy the Heat got once the Celtics started pressuring them and stuffing passing lanes.
The Celtics made the extra pass in the 2nd half, and we’re able to get off a ton of 3s… with space.
Let’s see how Vincent’s ankle responds to one day rest, with a flight.
Our small lineups roast Kevin Love right off the floor, he only played 11 minutes, and that helps rebounding a lot. Also gives us more spacing to draw Bam out from protecting the rim. We've been much better this series without playing double big. It was an obvious adjustment that basically all the better basketball analysts called for in game 2.
Anything is possible playing like that in the 2nd half, even with worse shooting variance. Which team shows up on Thursday night?
Vincent's ankle is something to watch.
Vincent's ankle is something to watch.
So much was driven by the turnovers and Butler missing a few shots. My primary concern would be whether we can turn them over that much again
Tatum’s 10-13 from inside the arc was really needed, especially with all the early misses at the rim. JT made the right play over and over tonight.
16 more points than the next closest teammate, 4 more boards, and 1 more assist. Not even the most extreme instance this series either.
In game 2, he had 18 more points than the next closest, 9 more boards, and 5 more assists.
Like you said, need this every game the rest of the way. And we badly need more from Jaylen and Brogdon.
thing for the books has been that the underlying numbers say... the Heat can't shoot this good, the Celtics can't shoot this bad, and in the bigger sample of the regular season the Celtics were a much better team. Books generally lean towards the data, then let the bettors move the line