Putting the guy you want on him and then going under all the time is the best adjustment I can think of. You have to give up something, and Jimmy pull-up 3s are about as good as you're going to get in that regard.
Celtics vs Heat ECF Redux Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
- Start date
While we found coverage during the regular season, the Gallinari injury is rearing its head in the playoffs.
Butler also isn’t going to start shooting pull up threes at volume. It’s simply not his game. He only takes about 10-15% of his shots from three these days. And those are about 70% catch and shoot. So he takes maybe 1 pull up three per game in the ordinary course. My sense is those are normally threes he can dribble into, but that may be wrong. In any event, he’s also just not a good three point shooter. It’s kind of mystifying because he seems to have all the skills that should’ve let him develop that shot, but he never has.
It was 100-96 with 3:52 left.
It was 100-105 with :49 left.
You can't go 3 minutes without scoring at the end of the 4th and expect to win. Butler was only 2-5 in the last 4 minutes of the game. Boston lost because they gave up 3 offensive boards, and did not make one shot in that last 3:52 of the game.
It was 100-105 with :49 left.
You can't go 3 minutes without scoring at the end of the 4th and expect to win. Butler was only 2-5 in the last 4 minutes of the game. Boston lost because they gave up 3 offensive boards, and did not make one shot in that last 3:52 of the game.
That is a good article. On the is it the coach's fault or the players' I'd just add:
1) Obviously both.
2) Generally i'm in the camp that coaches get waaay too much credit/blame. Mostly blame: not a fan base in the NBA who doesn't seem to think they are uniquely blessed with a coach unable to correctly time time outs or figure out rotations. That's generally hot air nonsense.
3) I think the Joe M case is different...he's clearly in over his head. Coaching is 2 things: 1) doing whatever ineffable things a coach does to keep a team focused/mentally prepared; and 2) the x an o element.
The 1st of those is nearly impossible to judge except by results. But as the public face of the team Joe M is...I mean, awful. He comes across as a stubborn, insecure control freak during press conferences and count me in the camp that the throwing the clipboard tantrum came across as lame and immature. Not that it's not a tactic that can work, but when the players openly express disrespect for the coach, when he reinforces that disrespect with press conferences that, at best can be termed tone deaf and at worst semi-idiotic, then those tactics won't work. If Pops does it, players will stand to attn. But Mazzulla hasn't earned that respect and seems to be going backwards in that respect. There's been a lot of commentary that the Celtics mental discipline issues pre-date Mazzulla, which is likely true, and that so it's on the players. Of course, it is on the players: but that's the point of a coach: to get players who are underperforming in some way and help get them into the proper mental state. It might partly be on Ime and its certainly on the players, but if the current coach is to earn his pay check he needs to be part of the solution.
The 2nd is also hard to judge as, of course, if Brown plays awful or Rob is injury-affected, it'll make the best coach look bad just as great players can make a bad coach look good. But Joe M's post-game comments make public that he doesn't seem to consider in-game adjustments, that his strategic moves seem random and ill-thought out, but he sticks to them stubbornly, and that he just is not at the level of other coaches we've seen -- from Spoelstra to Malone, Ham, Kerr...we've seen a lot of really great coaching in teh playoffs and one guy sticks out as the exception.
I could see the Celtics coming back to win 4 in a row and make all this criticism seem silly, but it seems to me that this is a great learning experience for a young coach and after this season he needs to go back to being an apprentice and this will all be part of makign him be prepared to be a coach when he's more mature. But the Celtics really need a top-tier coach now.
This is especially likely for Smart. I was at game 2 for the Philly series, sitting right behind the Celtics tunnel. Smart had Embiid land on him and he immediately ran down the tunnel. No hesitation. He was hanging him arm like he couldn’t feel it. Yet, 5 game-time minutes later, there he was, on the court again. His list of stuff he’s playing through is likely massive. He plays hard, bounces off bodies, and is never afraid of hitting the floor.
All that said, the list is impacting his play. A lot. His defense is really bad at this point, especially when he is put in motion. 32 minutes is too many.
I think at this point, even the couple of posters who constantly try to stick up for Mazzulla literally no matter what, would have to admit that he’s just not a good coach right now. I know that people here love to shit on the media and act as if they are complete morons who know nothing but I think everyone can agree that when literally all of the media is talking about your coach being crushed, it’s a very bad thing
He was put in an awful situation by Ime, for some reason Brad has left him with a completely bare boned staff, and both of those things aren’t his fault…but the guy is clearly not up to snuff.
It really fucking sucks because this year was clearly a prime year in their window and their coach is learning on the job with not many assistants. Just a bad situation all around
As an aside, I still stubbornly believe that the Celtics come back and win this series…but I have literally 0 faith that they beat either the Lakers or the Nuggets. Celtics have the overall talent edge but the Western Conference teams have massive advantages on all of the margins (coaching, execution, focus, close and late situations).
If the Celtics are in a close game, I have no confidence in the coach to put the right line up or call the right play…and on the incredible off chance that happens, I have no confidence in the players executing (truthfully I have no confidence in them even getting a fucking shot off)
It’ll only get harder next time out given his newfound status as All NBA. He needed to sit more and probably should have been more White in his place.
You just can’t bench Tatum or Brown. I mean, if we want to go down that road, is there any doubt that Tatum should have been benched in Game 6 of the Philly series? His second half before the three point barrage was a fucking abomination but he turned it around.
Those two have earned the rope they are given
Miami's advantage on the boards is surprising to me. In the regular season the Celtics averaged 45.3 rebounds per game which was 7th best in the league. Miami averaged 40.6 rebounds per game which was 27th best in the league.
In the playoffs Boston and Miami are very close in rebounding averaging 42.7 and 41.1 respectively.
In the ECF Miami has out-rebounded Boston to the tune of 35-34 in G1 and 45-35 in G2. I don't understand why the Celtics rebounding so poorly in this series.
In the playoffs Boston and Miami are very close in rebounding averaging 42.7 and 41.1 respectively.
In the ECF Miami has out-rebounded Boston to the tune of 35-34 in G1 and 45-35 in G2. I don't understand why the Celtics rebounding so poorly in this series.
I think one of the Celtics’ major problems is that no coach has been able to stand up to Marcus Smart. Thankfully, Smart usually isn’t that bad and I think he has grown as a player to understand his role. But, last night Brogdon and White were outplaying Smart but CJM put Smart in during the closing minutes, he gave up an important turnover, and the Celtics couldn’t buy a bucket when Brogdon could have helped with that. It’s not at all that I think Smart is garbage, he should be a regular rotation player but I think he shouldn’t necessarily be in our closing lineup.
As Matt Moore just noted about D-Lo in the game tonight...
View: https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1660089030187556865
It isn't just superstars, I would guess Smart is on the list for Joe as well, there are guys you don't get to bench. Sometimes it's an edict from management/owernership, sometimes it's about handling the lockerroom or upcoming contract stuff, but outside of maybe Popovich coaching a bunch of kids right now, every coach in the league has it. Though for guys like Tatum and Brown it makes sense... yeah maybe you could have won last night with more White/Brogdon minutes and less Brown, but Brown and Tatum are the longterm future of the franchise, and you aren't winning a title this year without them both playing well and being happy, and even if you think they're headed the Mitchell/Gobert route long term... you still can't do it because getting them on long-term deals is vital to the ability to put together a contender whether with them, or via trading 1 of them.
But I think Miami is killing them on their offensive glass when it counts
they're killing them on the glass overall:
MIA has an ORB% of 25 in this series (Celtics at 19.5%).
Heat were at 22.8% for the season, Celtics at 22.1, they were 21st and 25th in the league respectively.
The MIA rate in this series would have been good for 9th best in the regular season, the Celtics' would be good for 29th.
Boston lead the league in defensive rebound rate (78.5 , amazing i know).... MIA was 5th.
Based on this series so far, MIA's number in the series (80.4) would be by far the best this year, the Celtics (75) would have been 23rd.
He won't have much. Roleplayers don't "change the culture". Guys like Smart are always more valuable to their own team than others. Smart's value is a deadweight contract and minor draft capital.
His 3-point shot is very line-drivey, which is common for guys with elite midrange games (MJ was similar). It apparently hasn't been easy for him to adjust that, and he probably thinks other parts of his game have higher ROI to work on (he seems to have been right mostly).
Exactly. Heat outrebounded the Celtics 45-35 last game, and the Celtics actually shot a little better from the field. This seems like a telltale sign. It's either lack of effort or lack of "head being in the game," because Miami is not a big team, or an athletic or springy team (like Atlanta). Tatum has turned into the team's best rebounder. Muscala was the wrong pickup at the trade deadline; they needed someone who shot 14% from three but who could rebound and protect the rim. (I say that realizing that this end-of-the-bench guy was fated to only pick up scarce playoff minutes if any, but this kind of big should be high on Brad's offseason wish list at least.)
This perfectly captures why Joe's clipboard incident seems churlish and immature. I know he's trying to motivate the team and all, and he's frustrated, but he's a rookie coach still trying to prove himself. He should save the theatrics for later in his career.
And he should already know this because . . . he IS a rookie coach with very little experience and he WILL make rookie mistakes.
It’s not the first time he’s ever coached a basketball game. He should have known better. I’m not giving him a rookie coach pass on that.
They also had several costly fouls underneath when they forced missed shots. Im not sure what the Celtics philosophy is on boxing out since many coaches now teach players to just focus on getting the ball. Either way they are somehow out of position and you can’t give away possessions after forcing stops.
Rebounding in this case feels like a relevant gauge of hustle and effort. In Q3 of G1 when the Heat ran away with the game they out-rebounded Boston 13-5 including 4 offensive boards. In Q4 of G2 Miami beat the Celtics on the boards 14-4 including 3 offensive rebounds in the final 55 seconds.
To @Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat 's point some of that is the Celtics shooting poorly and missing more shots than Miami. There is also a degree of random chance in how the ball bounces off the rim/backboard. However the Celtics are generally a good rebounding team that has not been rebounding well in this series. Miami seems to have raised their game and the Celtics have not been able to matched the intensity, heightened focus and effort of the Heat. One team wanting it more than the other is an overused cliche however in this case it feels like it fits.
Coaches today don’t teach boxing out? Why the heck not? It’s still by far the best way to keep the other guy from getting the ball (and thus getting the ball yourself). It’s the ONLY way a smaller or athletically inferior (those two things aren’t the same of course) player can really rebound.
Offensive rebounding is all about effort and pursuit and knowing angles. Defensive rebounding is about positioning and toughness and sealing your guys off before you go get the ball. Basketball has changed but the art of rebounding hasn’t. But boxing out takes a lot of effort and maybe guys don’t want to put that kind of effort in?
Ironically, Spoelstra is on the verge of getting to the finals with two stars and a bunch of coached-up undrafted guys, right out of the ol' BB playbook.
Can’t seem to find it online right now but I think it might have been Jay Wright at Villanova who emphasized going after the ball over boxing out a man. I still see debates about it among basketball people on Twitter.
Mazzulla mostly stuck to his normal script regarding player substitutions. With JB struggling in Game 2, it was apparent to me that Tatum’s minutes had to be stretched out, which I mentioned in the game thread. When he finally came back into the game in the fourth quarter, Miami became even more aggressive in forcing the ball out of his hands, and no one else was able to make a play. Tatum should have played the entire fourth quarter.
Also, Miami has gotten monster performances from a bench player in each game, with the Lowry going off early to keep it close in Game one, and Martin scoring at will in game two. Miami bench plus 12, and Butler/Bam scoring totals plus 12 against JT/JB. We can blame Mazzulla, who hasn’t been good, but Bam and Butler are getting it done, and the first team and second team all league wings on the Celtics are not. Mazzulla shouldn’t shoulder the blame for the late game fumblitis, which seems to be part of this team’s DNA. He also isn’t at fault for Jaylen Brown’s lack of focus throughout Game 2.
Also, Miami has gotten monster performances from a bench player in each game, with the Lowry going off early to keep it close in Game one, and Martin scoring at will in game two. Miami bench plus 12, and Butler/Bam scoring totals plus 12 against JT/JB. We can blame Mazzulla, who hasn’t been good, but Bam and Butler are getting it done, and the first team and second team all league wings on the Celtics are not. Mazzulla shouldn’t shoulder the blame for the late game fumblitis, which seems to be part of this team’s DNA. He also isn’t at fault for Jaylen Brown’s lack of focus throughout Game 2.
Over the back no longer gets called (serously when is the last time you saw this call in a game?). Boxing out is not a valid tactic in a lot of situations because of how officiating has evolved.
You don’t box out in order to generate over the back foul calls. You box out to keep yourself between the ball and your man, thus vastly increasing your chances of getting the rebound. o=ball, Y=you, H=him
o …………. Y H
Y is going to get that ball way, way more often than H is if Y keeps H behind him.
ideally you’d like that to happen outside the restricted area which I think you’re getting at with the ……. Too often I’m seeing the Celts cede that position inside where they may still end up between their man and the hoop but they’re too far under the hoop. Sometimes this happens when they start to seal too late, sometimes it happens when they fall asleep.
Yep I think you’re right. A possession isn’t over until the defensive team secures the ball, either after a made basket or a turnover or missed shot accompanied by a defensive rebound.
It absolutely boggles my mind that there are people out there that don’t emphasize rebounding or think it isn’t that important. Yes it takes effort. So does most everything else that’s worthwhile.
Where would you rank rebounding in importance relative to:
Generating/preventing high quality shots
Generating/avoiding turnovers
Generating/avoiding free throws
I think the challenge is that boxing out works if everyone does it. If 1-2 people don’t put a body on someone it’s easy for the offense to sneak in and grab the rebound in front of the boxing out players. I’m not at all saying boxing out is the wrong approach, I’m just saying that I can see people not bothering because it’s hard to get a bunch of kids to all do the right thing. Old man rant, get sick and tired of kids standing there and marveling at their air ball shot instead of following because that is what they see the NBA stars do.
Good question. I think of rebounding’s value this way.
If you’re a really good offensive rebounding team, you can afford to have a bad shooting percentage because your rebounding will just give you a greater volume of chances. Conversely, if you can’t rebound, you’ve got to shoot really, really well.
On the other end, if you dominate the defensive glass, you make the other team have to shoot the lights out, but if you can’t rebound their missed shots, they can shoot like crap and still score a ton of points. Moreover, it’s incredibly demoralizing to play good D only to give up loads of offensive rebounds, because you thought you got a stop but you didn’t, and now you now have to play even more good D. It’s demoralizing and draining and exhausting.
So I put rebounding right up there with turnovers - which are catastrophic. Especially live ball turnovers.
As a coach, my offensive principles are:
1. Take care of the ball
2. Take good shots when you get them and don’t turn down good shots in the (usually vain) hope that you’ll get a better one
3. Exploit mismatches as often as you can
4. Rebound rebound rebound - but without giving up fast breaks the other way…so that means crashing with three guys usually but they have to GET AFTER IT. Three guys crashing the offensive glass - if they really go for it - can do a lot of damage without sacrificing transition defense
Defensive principles:
1. Protect the paint
2. Defense is a team sport so help help help and help the helper - energy please!
3. Rebound like crazy
But what do I know? I’ve never remotely coached at the NBA level, nor will I. I just think that basketball is basketball and these principles work on any level.
Dean Oliver rated it third in that list, otherwise in that order. This was like 30 years ago of course and the game has changed an awful lot.
One simple way to boost your defensive rebounding while increasing your offensive efficiency is for Boston to keep running. Everyone knows Boston is happy to grind the pace to a halt in crunch time, so what's the penalty for Miami crashing the offensive boards? They don't need to worry about transition defense.
The nature of rebounding itself has changed drastically as well. Guys aren't in a scrum down low. It's a lot of long rebounds, tip outs, and teams are more willing to press the pace when they grab a long one which makes the tradeoff between offensive boards and transition defense more acute.
has any recent coach been able to stand up to ANY player?
it can’t just be about smart. Brown makes tons of dumb plays. Tatum at times plays hero ball to the team’s detriment. Grant’s antics are too many to count
going back to Brad, this team lets the players run the show, and the players clearly haven’t earned that
Something is obviously completely broken so it is what it is. This team was painful to watch. Perhaps with some changes in both coaching and personnel they’ll be more enjoyable. There was very little fun this entire season. I guess the first two months were ok.
It's really something. At least 3 times Heat players have lined up for charges and just clipped the Celtics as they drive by, which is supposed to be an easy foul call. Nothing. They've got 3 FTAs, one of which they only got on review.