Celtics vs Hawks, Round 1 Discussion

InstaFace

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This adds nothing of substance but I am reminded of that “definition of insanity” of keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Unfortunately it feels like this version of the Celtics has shown us who they are. Please let them prove me wrong.
Man am I glad the Celtics "showed us who they are", whatever that means.

Lotta crazy hot takes in the non-game-thread since Tuesday night. I'm sure we're all over that and learned our lessons! :)

To add a bit more commentary, the difference between Smart this game and Smart most of the series was dramatic, especially in the first half. His defensive positioning and communication was spot on, he wasn't sloppy or too casual, he was giving max effort. That was Championship Smart out there for the Celtics last night and we're going to need him to help find where Championship Horford has got to, but between Smaht and both the Jays we had some very consistent high-quality performances all night.

Tatum finished with 30 / 14 / 7 and when I saw that I said "wait, what?". It was such a subtle, workmanlike game by him, rarely spectacular aside from a few dunks. I guess his late game put-back that made him roar in the face of Jackson (?) was about the only time he really called for attention, but he was out there doing his All-NBA thing again.

Now if we can just get Jaylen to clean up some of the "didn't see the help defender and lose the ball while dribbling" stuff, maybe we'll really go places!
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I thought it was interesting that after the game, Mazzulla placed the blame on himself for the slow pace down the stretch in game 5, saying it was his playcalling that slowed the game down. They made the decision to play with more pace and more freedom last night, and the execution was much better for it. The Celtics are not really built to attack a set defense with choreographed sets, especially when teams are trapping Tatum. I thought it was a nice example of a young coach learning and adjusting on the fly.
See this is the type of coach-speak I talk about. The pace down the stretch was no different as we began attacking with the clock in single digits. The primary difference, and a critical one, was flashing Smart to the foul line when the double came on Tatum so we got off quality shots. It resulted in 3 open threes and an uncontested layup while opening up the floor that kept Atlanta on their heels as they weren’t expecting this attack.
 

tims4wins

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Man am I glad the Celtics "showed us who they are", whatever that means.

Lotta crazy hot takes in the non-game-thread since Tuesday night. I'm sure we're all over that and learned our lessons! :)
I'm glad they won, but I'm not sure that we learned anything last night. It wasn't like they went out and dominated. It's awesome that they executed well down the stretch in games 4 and 6. They also pissed down their leg in game 5. So I really have no idea what to expect.
 

Bleedred

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See this is the type of coach-speak I talk about. The pace down the stretch was no different as we began attacking with the clock in single digits. The primary difference, and a critical one, was flashing Smart to the foul line when the double came on Tatum so we got off quality shots. It resulted in 3 open threes and an uncontested layup while opening up the floor that kept Atlanta on their heels as they weren’t expecting this attack.
This. Giving Tatum options when he's being doubled; options that are not massively high on the degree of difficulty scale, is the key. If Tatum is being single guarded and he can take someone off the dribble until the defense collapses, the perimeter options are wide open and he can find them easily (and has in the past). Last night, they were doubling him basically after he stepped over half court and penetrating against a double team (even a shitty Atlanta one) is hard. Flashing Marcus to the foul line was the right move and I'm really encouraged that CJM figured it out. Every time Marcus touched the ball there, the Celtics got a great look.
 

benhogan

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See this is the type of coach-speak I talk about. The pace down the stretch was no different as we began attacking with the clock in single digits. The primary difference, and a critical one, was flashing Smart to the foul line when the double came on Tatum so we got off quality shots. It resulted in 3 open threes and an uncontested layup while opening up the floor that kept Atlanta on their heels as they weren’t expecting this attack.
well put, attacking from the middle and playing inside out is much more effective when Tatum gets doubled
 

jezza1918

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I'm glad they won, but I'm not sure that we learned anything last night. It wasn't like they went out and dominated. It's awesome that they executed well down the stretch in games 4 and 6. They also pissed down their leg in game 5. So I really have no idea what to expect.
Your original post seemed to imply pissing down their legs is what we should expect, at least that's how I read "Unfortunately it feels like this version of the Celtics has shown us who they are." But in 2 of the last 3 games who they were was the exact opposite of pissing down their legs. My glasses are not so rosey this morning that I think we should expect terrific execution down the stretch of every close game from here on out, but I certainly don't expect the opposite anymore either.
Apologies in advance if I misread your original post...
 

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The other thing that makes me feel better is that the Hawks were really hitting shots. It's important for talented teams to be able to find ways to win when your opponent has energy and shot-making going for them.
It also just feels good (emotionally and going forward) to win a series because your players and coach adjusted and rose to the occasion, and not because John Collins kept bricking open 3s.
These.

Atlanta's guards don't play defense for shit, but the length of the big wings and wingy bigs really did bother the Celtics at times. But we overcame, and that stiff upper lip run to create space with a few minutes left in the fourth was very satisfying to see.

I think that Atlanta's roster had a lot of nice pieces. It was nice to beat them when they played well.
 

tims4wins

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Your original post seemed to imply pissing down their legs is what we should expect, at least that's how I read "Unfortunately it feels like this version of the Celtics has shown us who they are." But in 2 of the last 3 games who they were was the exact opposite of pissing down their legs. My glasses are not so rosey this morning that I think we should expect terrific execution down the stretch of every close game from here on out, but I certainly don't expect the opposite anymore either.
Apologies in advance if I misread your original post...
I mean, the Celts won some very ballsy playoff games last year, and also had some maddening losses. So no, I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't ever finish. Just that they have proven themselves to be inconsistent. Ever since the Brooklyn series, they have made things harder on themselves than it needed to be (in the playoffs). This makes 4 straight series like that.
 

jezza1918

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I mean, the Celts won some very ballsy playoff games last year, and also had some maddening losses. So no, I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't ever finish. Just that they have proven themselves to be inconsistent. Ever since the Brooklyn series, they have made things harder on themselves than it needed to be (in the playoffs). This makes 4 straight series like that.
Gotcha, and that's totally fair. Just not sure that's a celtics problem so much as an every team in the nba problem with the exception of a few juggernauts. Especially in today's NBA where the talent pool is loaded, every team seems to have one superstar, and the way the 3-ball has made score fluctuations pretty unpredictable.
 

lovegtm

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I mean, the Celts won some very ballsy playoff games last year, and also had some maddening losses. So no, I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't ever finish. Just that they have proven themselves to be inconsistent. Ever since the Brooklyn series, they have made things harder on themselves than it needed to be (in the playoffs). This makes 4 straight series like that.
Doesn't that description apply to literally every good team of the post-KD-Warriors era? Heck, it even applies very very strongly to prior superteams like the LeBron Heat (coached by St. Spoelstra himself!)

I think people just haven't really adjusted to parity and incredibly high talent levels across the league.
 

Jimbodandy

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Now if we can just get Jaylen to clean up some of the "didn't see the help defender and lose the ball while dribbling" stuff, maybe we'll really go places!
If going 13 for 25 with 2 turnovers in 40 minutes isn't clean enough, I think that your standards might be too high.
 

InstaFace

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I'm glad they won, but I'm not sure that we learned anything last night. It wasn't like they went out and dominated. It's awesome that they executed well down the stretch in games 4 and 6. They also pissed down their leg in game 5. So I really have no idea what to expect.
They took a back-and-forth game by the horns midway through the 4th quarter and grinded it into a 7-8 point lead in the final minutes that they sustained and it allowed them to close things out with basically no stress. At about a minute left, I looked down (had been so focused I hadn't even seen the time or score) and was like "oh, we have an 8 point lead, this game is all over except for the shouting". It happens in subtle fashion sometimes, but they basically raised their level, played incredible, focused defense down the stretch, and out-executed the fighting-for-their-lives Hawks in a game that could've gone either way.

Other than arguably Horford, I can't think of a top-7 player who had anything other than a good or great game last night. I think that's pretty auspicious as we had into the first of our 3 trials of the season.
 

tims4wins

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Doesn't that description apply to literally every good team of the post-KD-Warriors era? Heck, it even applies very very strongly to prior superteams like the LeBron Heat (coached by St. Spoelstra himself!)

I think people just haven't really adjusted to parity and incredibly high talent levels across the league.
That may be true, I probably don't watch enough other teams. This is just one example, but in game 4 of the Bucks-Heat series, I still saw the Bucks make plenty of shots down the stretch, it was just that Jimmy went supernova. It was different than the Celts getting outscored 23-8 over the last 6 minutes of game 5. Not sure what the story was with game 5 of that series though, I know the Bucks blew another lead.
 

InstaFace

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If going 13 for 25 with 2 turnovers in 40 minutes isn't clean enough, I think that your standards might be too high.
Jaylen had a great game, an all-NBA-level game. The Hawks had no way to stop him.

I am, perhaps oddly, fixated on his ball security when dribbling and driving. I notice it like a designer notices bad font kerning or something.
 

DJnVa

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Who had "Atlanta will win more playoff games than Milwaukee this year" on their bingo card?
 

lovegtm

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That may be true, I probably don't watch enough other teams. This is just one example, but in game 4 of the Bucks-Heat series, I still saw the Bucks make plenty of shots down the stretch, it was just that Jimmy went supernova. It was different than the Celts getting outscored 23-8 over the last 6 minutes of game 5. Not sure what the story was with game 5 of that series though, I know the Bucks blew another lead.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, you should watch more other teams: everyone has these issues. You mention the Bucks' game 5....woo boy. That was something else. But then you have Phoenix almost blowing a 15 point lead with a few minutes left to LAC with everyone injured just a couple days before that. GSW completely choked in game 4 and was saved by Barnes missing an open 3 to win....

...and that's just in the last week in the playoffs. Stuff happens all the time, even to good teams. That's why series are 7 games, and not single-elimination powerball spins.
 

RorschachsMask

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For all the talk of Tatum and aggressiveness, he (slightly) led the team in drives per game for the series, and shot 56% on them, which is way above his regular season number.

Jaylen drove a lot too obviously, 10.5 times per game, and shot 53% on them. Smart shot 68% on his drives, but the volume was about half of Tatum and Jaylen.
 

Jimbodandy

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Jaylen had a great game, an all-NBA-level game. The Hawks had no way to stop him.

I am, perhaps oddly, fixated on his ball security when dribbling and driving. I notice it like a designer notices bad font kerning or something.
LOL. Needed that analogy on a Friday, thank you.

You're not alone. I do think that sometimes the reality isn't as bad as the perception (like last night), but he might also kick the ball around in one of these Philly games too.
 

Kliq

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Cool at the end to see Kemba there watching the team. It's too bad he's not 3 inches taller; loved that guy as a person.

View: https://twitter.com/John_Karalis/status/1651822571069882374?s=20
It's not fair what happened to Kemba, his knees just went and he needed every ounce of athleticism and quickness to hang in the league.


I agree that's the profile Celtics want, and think they know it (Kabengele is an attempt at it; Theis sort of fits it as well). They are either going to have to get lucky or good in targeting someone who hasn't popped yet to get it, as it's a desireable profile and they don't have a lot of assets. Okongwu has shown too much, as has sometimes-mentioned Wendell Carter. I was big on Zach Collins (different but related profile) and that ship has now also sailed. Or, possibly, an older player who slips through cracks FA-wise....Gorgui Deng types.

The right asset profile (not player profile) is like Xavier Tillman/Santi Aldama (plays, but not core piece and contract stuff may make them acquirable). I just think they have to keep looking. Chuma Okeke? Chris Boucher might fit and be available, but too expensive. Christian Koloko (may not be any good)

The one thing I've wondered a bit about is whether there's a Grant-related trade to fill this gap. I don't think so, and haven't fired trade machine up, but he's the asset who might get that level of value back...I agree with others PP isn't enough (unless you target the right development project)
I was thinking maybe someone like Jaxson Hayes; he's still really raw and looks like he'll be a FA this year, not sure what kind of deal he gets.

The best way to get the player you are talking about is probably in the draft; where you can find those kind of guys later in the first round (which is how they got TL in the first place.)
 

PedroKsBambino

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It's not fair what happened to Kemba, his knees just went and he needed every ounce of athleticism and quickness to hang in the league.




I was thinking maybe someone like Jaxson Hayes; he's still really raw and looks like he'll be a FA this year, not sure what kind of deal he gets.

The best way to get the player you are talking about is probably in the draft; where you can find those kind of guys later in the first round (which is how they got TL in the first place.)
Agreed, and I've mentioned him in past as well...fits both the asset and player profile.
 

finnVT

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Can you do this for this upcoming series?
BOS +3.7 ppg offensively vs PHI +3.3 ppg defensively = BOS +0.4
PHI +0.9 ppg offensively vs BOS +2.8 ppg defensively = PHI - 1.9

So Bos 114.6 vs PHI 112.3.

There are better versions of this out there though that use pace, etc, this is just quick back-of-the-envelope stuff.
 

tims4wins

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For all the talk of Tatum and aggressiveness, he (slightly) led the team in drives per game for the series, and shot 56% on them, which is way above his regular season number.
Why isn't he getting to the line? only 4.8 FTA for the series. He was at 8.4 FTA for the regular season. That's a huge reduction, especially considering that his MPG are up, and his SPG is also slightly up (21.3 to 21.1) (although I suppose if he was drawing more fouls his SPG would actually be lower)

Is it that he is making more shots on his drives, so they are calling fewer fouls? Still just a huge drop.

11.8 2 point FGA per game regular season vs. 11.3 playoffs, so that's down slightly. 9.3 3 point FGA regular season vs. 10.0 playoffs. Partial reason.
 

Strike4

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The Celtics are not really built to attack a set defense with choreographed sets, especially when teams are trapping Tatum. I thought it was a nice example of a young coach learning and adjusting on the fly.
This is something I was thinking of as that unfolded in Game 5 - there was sort of a power vacuum where it was not clear who was supposed to be taking the initiative (coach or players). And it did make me think of the days when CBS had great set plays that really fit the Isiah Thomas era Celtics who were young and hungry and scrappy but needed structure to executive against teams with stars.

And I also wondered if maybe this team could use a few more of those just to relieve the pressure on Brown and Tatum.
 

the moops

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Ah, gotcha. Yeah, you should watch more other teams: everyone has these issues. You mention the Bucks' game 5....woo boy. That was something else. But then you have Phoenix almost blowing a 15 point lead with a few minutes left to LAC with everyone injured just a couple days before that. GSW completely choked in game 4 and was saved by Barnes missing an open 3 to win....

...and that's just in the last week in the playoffs. Stuff happens all the time, even to good teams. That's why series are 7 games, and not single-elimination powerball spins.
Yea, the talent in this league is just ridiculous. A little mistake here, a great scheme put in by a coach, a poor or hot shooting night, etc and anyone can lose to anyone
 

ManicCompression

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As someone who slammed Atlanta when we we're up 2-0, I'll say this:

They have a lot of good depth up and down the roster. There wasn't really a break for the Celtics. Capela goes out, Okongwu comes in. Trae sits, Bogdan comes into the game. Hunter sits, here comes Bey. None of these players are all stars or all NBA, but they're all legit players who bring their own strengths. They didn't hit shots really in games 1-2, but then they started hitting shots and getting a feel for the playoffs.

I don't think that's due to some underlying flaw in the Celtics. All year, people have been saying the Hawks weren't achieving to the level of their talent. Well, their talent finally showed up, and the Celtics still won.

Just like 2008, take the series win, and then wipe the floor with the Sixers in the next series.
 

RorschachsMask

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Why isn't he getting to the line? only 4.8 FTA for the series. He was at 8.4 FTA for the regular season. That's a huge reduction, especially considering that his MPG are up, and his SPG is also slightly up (21.3 to 21.1) (although I suppose if he was drawing more fouls his SPG would actually be lower)
Combination of things, I think. Hawks trapped him a lot, so I’d guess a good amount of his drives were the rare times that he had a lane, so there wasn’t as much resistance. He also was just finishing around guys, shot 74.2% within three feet, which was slightly above his regular season percentage.

Refs also tend to let more go in the playoffs. That said, I would bet a lot of money that he gets to the line a lot more against Philly, they are more physical, and are less likely to trap.
 

tims4wins

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Combination of things, I think. Hawks trapped him a lot, so I’d guess a good amount of his drives were the rare times that he had a lane, so there wasn’t as much resistance. He also was just finishing around guys, shot 74.2% within three feet, which was slightly above his regular season percentage.

Refs also tend to let more go in the playoffs. That said, I would bet a lot of money that he gets to the line a lot more against Philly, they are more physical, and are less likely to trap.
Thanks, that's all fair. Although then I watch the Heat and Butler is up to 9.6 FTA vs. 8.7 in the regular season. I guess he's his own rule.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yea, the talent in this league is just ridiculous. A little mistake here, a great scheme put in by a coach, a poor or hot shooting night, etc and anyone can lose to anyone
There's probably someone super smart who can analyze how the pace and space, 3pt Era is more conducive to ball luck than the bully ball of the past. The team with the best player on the court still usually wins, but I'd bet that we're heading up the continuum in the direction of baseball (albeit slowly) where ball luck has a bigger component than ever before.

We could end up soon enough where the norm is that most teams have a few guys who can shoot over 40% from 3 on volume, and the games become more and more of a shooting contest. It's fascinating to watch the evolution continue.
 

benhogan

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As someone who slammed Atlanta when we we're up 2-0, I'll say this:

They have a lot of good depth up and down the roster. There wasn't really a break for the Celtics. Capela goes out, Okongwu comes in. Trae sits, Bogdan comes into the game. Hunter sits, here comes Bey. None of these players are all stars or all NBA, but they're all legit players who bring their own strengths. They didn't hit shots really in games 1-2, but then they started hitting shots and getting a feel for the playoffs.

I don't think that's due to some underlying flaw in the Celtics. All year, people have been saying the Hawks weren't achieving to the level of their talent. Well, their talent finally showed up, and the Celtics still won.

Just like 2008, take the series win, and then wipe the floor with the Sixers in the next series.
After being MIA all season, John Collins finally decided to show up for the last 2 games. Not sure what the Hawk's next move is this summer, but the Snyder hire was a good one.

The Celtics did exactly what was needed against a momentum-filled group on the road. They kept it close all game & then let their experience take over the last half of Q4. This will happen again & again in the playoffs. While going through adversity is tough in the moment, the playoff Celtics are better off with this result than a 4-game sweep.
 

lars10

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Thanks, that's all fair. Although then I watch the Heat and Butler is up to 9.6 FTA vs. 8.7 in the regular season. I guess he's his own rule.
I know we’re all pretty much Celts fans.. but to me the amount of contact required to foul Tatum isn’t the same as Butler, LeBron, Trae, Gianis, Embiid.

it’s not like he avoids contact going to the hoop as much as he does. He also gets grabbed a ton as he starts to go to the hoop.. i think he also does start to avoid contact at some points because he’s not getting calls. Jaylen got hacked a number of times last night as well.

don’t think it’s a conspiracy or anything.. other than Marc Davis.. who is an awful official for the Celtics… but I do think the amount of contact allowed is noticeable.
 

Red Right Ankle

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Thanks, that's all fair. Although then I watch the Heat and Butler is up to 9.6 FTA vs. 8.7 in the regular season. I guess he's his own rule.
~25% usage in the regular season vs. ~35% in the playoffs for Butler might have something to do with that increase, whereas Tatum's usage actually went down from ~33% to ~29%, regular vs. post-season to date. Though, that usage change definitely doesn't fully explain the nearly 50% drop in Tatum's FT rate!
 

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After being MIA all season, John Collins finally decided to show up for the last 2 games. Not sure what the Hawk's next move is this summer, but the Snyder hire was a good one.
If I'm Atlanta's FO, I'm quietly looking to see if I can get value for Collins before anyone notices that he doesn't do much out there anymore. Maybe you're right that Snyder gets more out of him, but damn if the bloom is not off the rose on that guy.
 

lovegtm

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Yea, the talent in this league is just ridiculous. A little mistake here, a great scheme put in by a coach, a poor or hot shooting night, etc and anyone can lose to anyone
I watch the whole league, usually at least the 2nd half of the competitive playoff games, and I just keep shaking my head when I see what the 33+ year-old guys are doing.

There almost isn't room to break into the league as a young guy unless you're really really good, because the old stars just keep on trucking. (Obviously that's the case for expansion.)

At this point, you almost have to assume that guys in their 30s with decent physical profiles are good bets, and retain them for longer at higher $$ amounts than would have seemed prudent a few years ago.
 

lovegtm

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If I'm Atlanta's FO, I'm quietly looking to see if I can get value for Collins before anyone notices that he doesn't do much out there anymore. Maybe you're right that Snyder gets more out of him, but damn if the bloom is not off the rose on that guy.
They've been trying to do exactly that for exactly that reason for awhile now....the problem is that the rest of the league agrees with them.
 

jezza1918

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~25% usage in the regular season vs. ~35% in the playoffs for Butler might have something to do with that increase, whereas Tatum's usage actually went down from ~33% to ~29%, regular vs. post-season to date. Though, that usage change definitely doesn't fully explain the nearly 50% drop in Tatum's FT rate!
Good point about the usage rate. And lots of this is due to SSS obviously, I mean Butler had one game with 18 FTs...
 

Jimbodandy

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They've been trying to do exactly that for exactly that reason for awhile now....the problem is that the rest of the league agrees with them.
My memory sucks on this stuff. It's telling me that it was a "Trae and Collins don't get along" kind of thing, and these things pass. Kinda like "why the fuck was Toronto trying to move Anunoby". Except Anunoby's still pretty good, and Collins is a tall JAG at the moment.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah good point about Tatum's usage rate. That said, between games 1, 2, 5, and 6, he only had 8 total FTA, on 86 shots (50 2 point attempts). That's hard to fathom. In the regular season 8.4 FTA to 11.8 2point attempts = 71.2%. Playoffs 4.8 / 11.3 = 42.5%. Games 1-2-5-6 8/50 = 16.0%.
 

benhogan

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My memory sucks on this stuff. It's telling me that it was a "Trae and Collins don't get along" kind of thing, and these things pass. Kinda like "why the fuck was Toronto trying to move Anunoby". Except Anunoby's still pretty good, and Collins is a tall JAG at the moment.
After his first 3 seasons of ascension, I was a Collins believer. Trae figured out that hockey assists & shorter 3s for teammates rarely lead to All-Star game appearances.

JC has withered away in the Corner Office like a 50yr old Japanese Auto Executive staring out over the Tokyo skyline
 

Jimbodandy

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After his first 3 seasons of ascension, I was a Collins believer. Trae figured out that hockey assists & shorter 3s for teammates rarely lead to All-Star game appearances.

JC has withered away in the Corner Office like a 50yr old Japanese Auto Executive staring out over the Tokyo skyline
Today is super strong for analogies. Very much appreciate everyone's humor after a long week.

I hate to ascribe low effort to a guy that I don't watch regularly, but with a guy with Collins' body and skills disappears for huge stretches at a time, it's not all Trae's fault. Hunter imposed his will at times. Collins looked more like Bey than Hunter, and that's no bueno for a guy who seemed on the rise (you weren't alone in this).
 

benhogan

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Today is super strong for analogies. Very much appreciate everyone's humor after a long week.

I hate to ascribe low effort to a guy that I don't watch regularly, but with a guy with Collins' body and skills disappears for huge stretches at a time, it's not all Trae's fault. Hunter imposed his will at times. Collins looked more like Bey than Hunter, and that's no bueno for a guy who seemed on the rise (you weren't alone in this).
It's completely on JC. Trae Young jokes aside, your right, Hunter has taken over his role.

Collins $$$/contract/extension stuff crept in & he hasn't been the same since. That's a guy you want to steer clear of like the rest of the NBA has. JC probably needs to go to a tanker and reestablish his game, that's what he should do
 

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The real lesson here is that the Hawks are a lot better than people want to give them credit for and the Trae Young talk here last week was pretty crazypants. I'm pretty sure that Sean Marks would sell his firstborn kid to add Young to his collection of 3&D guys.
I'm not sure I would back down from the "Can't win with Trae Young" takes that some had around here.

At the end of the day, over the course of 6 games, Trae Young took 24.8 shots a game, and shot 40.3% from the floor and 33.3% from deep on 9 attempts per game. Even while adding 6.2 free throws made per game, he still ended up with a TS% of .521. That's bad folks, like really, really bad. He distributed the ball well (and frankly should do more of it), with 10.2apg, but he also had 4 turnovers per game. His ORTG/DRTG was 110/121.

Except the assist numbers, people would be losing their collective minds around here if Tatum/Brown/Smart, etc. ever put up numbers like that over 6 games.

The Hawks were in this series because of the following:

Trae Young had one huge spurt over the course of 3 minutes in game 5
Murray went from a career 33.5% on 2.7 attempts per game from deep to 37.8% on 7.4 attempts per game
Hunter went from a career 35.6% on 4.3 attempts per game from deep to 36.8% on 6.3 attempts per game
John Collins was a dreadful 29.2% from 3 this season, and shot 34.4% in this series on 2 more attempts per game, including going 7/13 in games 5/6.
Bogdanovich is a great shooter at 38.7% on his career and 40.6% for the season, he shot 45.5% this series.
Saddiq Bey shot 36.1% this season between Det/Atlanta, and ended this series at 38.8%.


I mean, that's it folks. Atlanta literally shot the fucking lights out in this series from deep, but what I find interesting is that every single Atlanta Hawk had a worse TS% this series (except Bogdanovich) than they had in the regular season, and most by significant amounts.

The C's were playing great defense inside the arc, and letting Atlanta take 3's. Atlanta just made them at rates that were probably completely unexpected, and it was Atlanta's only chance, and it got them two wins, one on a miracle. The C's are just fine. That's my end take.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,665
The hope for someone getting Collins is that he will sort of end up like Andrew Wiggins--- a guy who is miscast as a 1/2/3 on a very good team but also a guy with a flexible and broad skillset who can contribute especially if asked to do a bit less.

The problem, I suspect, with that is 1) Wiggins wasn't really traded for a ton of value and Hawks want more and 2) Wiggins always had defensive chops (so there was a role) and with exception of the ECF run, Collins has largely profiled as a guy who doesn't love to dig in on D which makes teams nervous about fit/role.

I'd still take a shot on him, generically speaking, but I do wonder if he may well end up as a guy who wants a role (or who teams want to fill a role) greater than he should.

Putting aside the cap barrier to it, value-wise and fit-wise would you S&T Grant for Collins? Guessing most would not.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,295
Doesn't that description apply to literally every good team of the post-KD-Warriors era? Heck, it even applies very very strongly to prior superteams like the LeBron Heat (coached by St. Spoelstra himself!)

I think people just haven't really adjusted to parity and incredibly high talent levels across the league.
I will include “3-pt variance” to that list. If this series took place 10 years ago there wouldn’t have been a G6. The three-point shot has helped create this parity.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
21,122
Santa Monica
The hope for someone getting Collins is that he will sort of end up like Andrew Wiggins--- a guy who is miscast as a 1/2/3 on a very good team but also a guy with a flexible and broad skillset who can contribute especially if asked to do a bit less.

The problem, I suspect, with that is 1) Wiggins wasn't really traded for a ton of value and Hawks want more and 2) Wiggins always had defensive chops (so there was a role) and with exception of the ECF run, Collins has largely profiled as a guy who doesn't love to dig in on D which makes teams nervous about fit/role.

I'd still take a shot on him, generically speaking, but I do wonder if he may well end up as a guy who wants a role (or who teams want to fill a role) greater than he should.

Putting aside the cap barrier to it, value-wise and fit-wise would you S&T Grant for Collins? Guessing most would not.
Good one to ponder.

Granite S&T + DG + PP for Collins could work money-wise...IF JC would play the role of "highly motivated" 8th man for a perennial Championship contender then yes...Unfortunately, I'm guessing JC isn't built that way.
 

ManicCompression

Member
SoSH Member
May 14, 2015
1,481
I'm not sure I would back down from the "Can't win with Trae Young" takes that some had around here.
I'm the same. He's a good offensive player who's extremely limited on defense, and his high usage makes him a miserable PG to play with unless you're Clint Capela. He can carry a team to a really good offense in the regular season, but his teams won't advance far unless there's serious injury luck.

That's fine though! This is the case for all but like 10 players in the NBA.