It's crazy. How other NBA players have transitioned knockdown shooters to lockdown defenders as they age?
Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion
- Thread starter tims4wins
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Agreed, you have to think Celtics will really focus on him going forward. There's no one in Celtics rotation he can cover---even White is going to be able to back him down or go by him. Bucks may need minutes/shooting from Allen but Celtics can make them pay heavily for those minutes if they focus on it.
Giannis was gassed second fourth quarter in a row. I know he's carrying a huge load at both ends and is getting a lot of bodying from Celts. You do wonder if there's another level of conditioning he needs, though...same way Embiid needed it prior to last year. Keep working on him and he tires, that has been a sneaky key to fourth quarter comebacks.
Grant played 19 seconds in the 4th quarter. He had 4 fouls so Ime could have gone to him. It looked to me like, down the stretch, Ime was going to go offense/defense with Brown (5 fouls) and Grant, but maybe because of the way the game played out it just wasn't necessary. Or maybe, what looked like offense/defense subs to me was Grant coming in, getting torched, and Ime getting him the hell out of there.
Regardless, it was the Celtics going small (White over Grant) that blew up the Bucks in the 4th, Ime needs to go back to that.
Regardless, it was the Celtics going small (White over Grant) that blew up the Bucks in the 4th, Ime needs to go back to that.
The real strength of this team is the ability to gut it out when nothing is going right. They were DEAD in the 3rd quarter - missing good looks, key guys picking up tons of fouls, not getting bounces. But their ability to stay within single digits of last year's NBA champs despite all that is really amazing - just finding a way. I was listening on the radio and at the end of the 3rd quarter Maxwell was like "it's like they are holding onto a rope, and the Bucks spread peanut butter, then butter, then grease, and they're clawing and slipping" and Grande was like "but the point is they are still hanging onto the rope".
It makes me tired just watching it.
It makes me tired just watching it.
We're not really Celtics fans. We've only watched the playoffs. But my 5yo is so fucking hooked. We got him a Tatum jersey and he wears it every game day. He's the only player he really knows but he is super excited every time he gets the ball. He lost his mind on that crazy falling down layup late in the game.
Anyway, I have no analysis. Just a note to day this team is fun to watch and it's really fun to watch your kids become fans of something.
Anyway, I have no analysis. Just a note to day this team is fun to watch and it's really fun to watch your kids become fans of something.
I nearly did, too, because Tatum took a moment to rest on the court while staring at the ref after hitting that layup while Milwaukee was running off the made basket.
He barely fouled him. He didn't really make a play on the ball, but get out of here with that being anywhere near a flagrant
The league is supposed to have a point of emphasis on hitting people from behind while they are in the air, essentially defenseless. If Giannis is not held to account for that - and the league seems to have no interest in doing so, he's eventually going to ,hurt someone badly. Not through intent to hurt someone badly, but just because of physics. The flagrant 2 call should be reserved for intent fouls, but the kind of reckless fouls like that should merit the -1.
Without Middleton, Giannis is basically forced to take the ball to the basket every possession. He is having to sprint, spin, push, fight through, and jump over Grant, Tatum, Brown, Smart, or Horford - sometimes several of those guys - every time he does it. Plus he's the defensive stopper on the other end for them. And he's their primary ball handler too.
This is where you really see them miss Middleton. He would pick up the slack for them when GA sits, and even when Giannis is in, he can take some possessions off and let Middleton do damage (and he does plenty of it).
No wonder Giannis is completely exhausted. I don't know that anyone ever could sustain this type of effort, for four full quarters, game after game, against a team as strong and physical and defensively-equipped as Boston.
I have so much work, and I can't stop consuming Celtics content this morning. What a win! Every possession was a nail-bitter, and it did not look good after the hole we put ourselves in by Grant and Jaylen picking up some 50/50 calls. There would have been endless rage about Jaylen's block/charge had we lost. (Just an observation, not a commentary on officiating). The 4th quarter was also a vindication for Ime, who told the players to rise above the officiating.
Check out some of the quick post-game interviews if you have some time.
Al Horford - Al Horford had just a fantastic game with his Miss Universe Wife at a soon-to-be "don't call me old" age of 36. He gave a humble, direct post-game interview. Later on, when speaking about Giannis and his stare down. "I don't know what he said to me, but the way he was looking at me and the way he was going about it really didn't sit well with me," he said. "At that point, I think something switched with me in the game."
Marcus Smart - Marcus also talked about Al's leadership and how Al is an anchor on defense that provides stability, allowing him to play with more frenzy. Marcus also said that Al always knows who he is and keeps an even keel. He was very effusive, saying, "We love Al. He's the best vet we've ever had. Best vet I've ever had. You know, he comes in and it never changes with him."
Tatum - Tatum said that they spoke as a team about how they (the Celtics) hadn't played well and were only down 7 in the fourth. Leave everything on the floor and clawback, and that's what they did.
Tatum also shared this post of Al doing lunges with 100s in each hand. Impressive (and perhaps inadvisable) after a taxing game.
Check out some of the quick post-game interviews if you have some time.
Al Horford - Al Horford had just a fantastic game with his Miss Universe Wife at a soon-to-be "don't call me old" age of 36. He gave a humble, direct post-game interview. Later on, when speaking about Giannis and his stare down. "I don't know what he said to me, but the way he was looking at me and the way he was going about it really didn't sit well with me," he said. "At that point, I think something switched with me in the game."
Marcus Smart - Marcus also talked about Al's leadership and how Al is an anchor on defense that provides stability, allowing him to play with more frenzy. Marcus also said that Al always knows who he is and keeps an even keel. He was very effusive, saying, "We love Al. He's the best vet we've ever had. Best vet I've ever had. You know, he comes in and it never changes with him."
Tatum - Tatum said that they spoke as a team about how they (the Celtics) hadn't played well and were only down 7 in the fourth. Leave everything on the floor and clawback, and that's what they did.
Tatum also shared this post of Al doing lunges with 100s in each hand. Impressive (and perhaps inadvisable) after a taxing game.
We know players in the air are vulnerable to being hurt badly if contact redirects them past where they intend to land or in a way that they couldn't anticipate/recover from. It doesn't take much there for JB to be knocked hard onto his back - barely touched him is enough if it goes wrong. JB had every right to push back at GA for the contact (especially given that he didn't make a play on the ball). If you aren't making a play on the ball, then any contact to a vulnerable player there is unnecessary, and therefore dangerous. I don't know the exact wording/intention of the NBA around that play w/ regard to flagrant fouls and I didn't see JB looking for one - so I agree it wasn't even remotely on my radar either. For Giannis to try the big brother routine after the play, I'm glad JB reacted the way he did.
Edit: I also don't like seeing players land on their backs in that situation. If the league (and players) doesn't want contact there in the absence of a play on the ball and their mechanism is explicitly to call that a dangerous play and therefore a F1 as a deterrent (even absent intent), then call the F1 foul.
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I think it was similar enough to the Tatum play the last game, that could have easily broken Tatum's arm or given him a concussion, that Brown was justified in jawing at Giannis even if he wasn't pushed hard. And Giannis putting his hand on JB's neck (not his back or shoulders) was a punk move. I don't think it was a flagrant as the game is usually officiated, but it might be good for player safety if it was as those are dangerous plays.
It's not a flagrant, but you're right, the combo of the shove plus the hand on neck is eye-roll inducing. Giannis on the court is turning more insufferable by the minute.
Related--Giannis never played 40 minutes in a game this season until the postseason. That seems crazy.
So I’ve watched and analyzed this hand on the neck thing like it was the Zapruder film…and what a weird fucking move by Giannis.
At first I thought it was like a neck massage but it’s not…it’s kind of like a more aggressive version of a little league coach putting his hand on a kids neck before the kid goes up to bat?
Either way, between that sequence and the sequence where he was trying to kick Marcus Smart (who was trying to help him up); there was some pretty weird Giannis stuff
It's a power move, "alpha" sort of bullshit behavior. He's obviously trying to "son" Jaylen there.
In real time I thought it was a "hey man, i tried to affect the shot but not kill you" gesture. But given the thin line between doing that and actually wrecking Brown's landing, Brown was rightfully having none of that.
White and Smart were on the floor for the entire 4th quarter. PP played for half of the 4th. I think going small was forced by foul trouble combined with the lack of bench depth. I kept expecting Ime to pull PP and was surprised he kept him on the floor for so long. To his credit he stuck with what was working and kept Brown from fouling out. It was a fantastic and unexpected adjustment that played a pivotal role in the Celtics winning the game.
I wonder about how much his weight affects what kind of conditioning he needs to be in to play 40. (Same with Embiid) Like, he’s jacked and athletic, but it’s still weight (I don’t believe the listed weights.). Like, I’ve heard movie stars at times say that they don’t really like bulking up for a role because then they’re out of breath climbing stairs and stuff.
I actually found myself marveling at Giannis driving athletically over and over again in the 3rd and thinking, Wow, how the hell does he maintain that, doing it over and over again? And then the 4th rolled around and, well…
Like @BaseballJones said, carrying everything like this, he may not have that kind of stamina, and it would be harder for someone as big as him to develop it.
Jaylen with only 32 minutes last night thanks to foul trouble. I'd be looking for him to be extra aggressive early tomorrow. He should be fresh.
After watching him closely the last 4 games, Giannis does some questionable crap. Elbows high, 80s style when he gets caught in the lane. Some fans like that garbage but the NBA has been legislating that out of the game for years. He clearly gets a different/friendly whistle (only fouled out twice this year which is shocking with his USG and style of play). If the NBA Refs keep on letting him push the envelope he's going to injure somebody badly.
On the game thread, it was called "purposely reckless" on the way he barrels (like a fullback) into defensive players in the lane, then on defense he takes guys out on breaks or at the rim. He rarely tries to catch guys he hits when they are midair, (ie Jaylen there) which is an NBA unwritten rule,
He's a great player, clearly the best in the game BUT he's going up against the line. Put it this way, nobody around here has raised an eyebrow to Grayson Allen or Bobby Portis (or any other Buck) this entire series.
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I was surprised that Ime continued to go small the entire four quarter, basically playing one big the entire time. SVG kept saying they had to get Al off of Giannis and bring Grant back in the game; there were a couple plays where Giannis went right around Al, but for the most part I thought he did a pretty good job. It was Lopez that was killing them inside with that lineup while Al was guarding Giannis; who had Lopez then? Was it Tatum? Either way, I thought it was interesting that Ime resisted the temptation to get another big on the floor. The extra ball handling really did help.
I'm also going to give some love to Tatum for that game, because his performance is getting lost with all the justified Al Horford love. That was a superstar game from Tatum in one specific way: coming off a terrible game 3, he didn't try to press or do too much. He found a way to impact the game even when his shot wasn't falling. The Bucks were keying on him and sending extra help his way, especially for those long stretches Jaylen sat down with foul trouble. And Tatum just continued to make the right basketball play, over and over. Lesser players would fall into the trap of trying to be too aggressive. He kept giving it up and trusting his teammates, and when he found a way to assert himself as a scorer, he pressed the advantage and made some huge shots. This was Tatum knowing he had nothing to prove, even after a terrible game last time out. That's apex superstar stuff.
I'm also going to give some love to Tatum for that game, because his performance is getting lost with all the justified Al Horford love. That was a superstar game from Tatum in one specific way: coming off a terrible game 3, he didn't try to press or do too much. He found a way to impact the game even when his shot wasn't falling. The Bucks were keying on him and sending extra help his way, especially for those long stretches Jaylen sat down with foul trouble. And Tatum just continued to make the right basketball play, over and over. Lesser players would fall into the trap of trying to be too aggressive. He kept giving it up and trusting his teammates, and when he found a way to assert himself as a scorer, he pressed the advantage and made some huge shots. This was Tatum knowing he had nothing to prove, even after a terrible game last time out. That's apex superstar stuff.
Great post. The next adjustment MIL has to make is what to do when BOS goes small. Kind of amazing to me that Cs could play PP 6 minutes in the 4Q and MIL didn't really try to go after him.
I thought that one of the reasons BOS could get away with playing small is that White really made life difficult.
Just a nit - White played 34 last night, not 24. Probably just a mistype. Agree he should play more.
Matthews has some size and quickness and he's had a reputation for being good defender (just for example, he's had positive DWS for most of his career) but it certainly helps that he's been given a pretty specific task and doesn't have to deviate much from it. All he's doing is bodying JT, and then if there's a PnR, he's chasing after JT. He's not worried about switching off too many times nor is he worried about getting beat because MIL is really loading up against JT. He's doing a good job but it also helps that JT hasn't really been "on" for much of the series.
I think I could play competent NBA defense if I had both Lopez and Giannis protecting the basket behind me.
Did I miss something last night with Giannis kicking Smart? I saw them trying to help each other up then once the TO was called Giannis let go and wanted to lay down for 3 seconds of rest. Was this the sequence?
It's incredible to me that they could be lifting like that after a game like that. These dudes are super human. The amount of commitment and dedication they have is probably more impressive than the results they get. Celebrating that kind of win by getting in a workout is ... something.
He does kick him in the face, technically. Hard to figure out what Giannis is actually trying to do:
View: https://twitter.com/Demon2k22/status/1524003024183734273?s=20&t=57ocfWnYkAionXrAdzS6nQ
A key benefit of going small is it sped up the pace of the game and after that strenuous 3rd quarter the Bucks and particularly Giannis were running on fumes. And that’s been the case in all these games - Giannis gets tired. So is there even an adjustment for that?
It makes the most sense in terms of timing. You can't stop lifting and lose all your gains during the playoff run, and lifting the day before a game after travel is not ideal. So the team will do a maintenance lift after games. Amazing thing to me is the training staff seems to bring their own weights on the road with them.
We would be losing our fucking minds if that was Horford gently putting his hand on Giannis' back and it was called a flagrant. That play was not dangerous in the slightest and in no basketball world that I want to be a part of is it a flagrant
Yea it was a nothingburger. At first, I thought it was a kick but Giannis was gassed. It actually was Giannis waving the white flag.
BUT GA is still getting away with some other questionable crap
They seemed content to live with some Lopez dunks and boards if it meant getting to hunt him off the pick and roll/screens. Probably a net win for the C’s.
I'll leave the flagrant part aside, but it's a very dangerous play, and players often get upset when it's done to them.
The fact that it's subtle and easier to get away with makes it worse; it's more dangerous than whacking a guy hard and harder to see.
It’s not a flagrant but can get very dangerous very quick if he pushes Jaylen too hard. It’s more of a bush league play that might cause a fight at a pickup game. Jaylen didn’t go looking to the refs for a flagrant but did point at Giannis and said “watch that shit”
Looking at the Giannis-Jaylen play on Jaylen's dunk attempt, I don't think it was "dirty," but it's probably "reckless" and uncool.
You can see how far away Giannis was as Jaylen gathers:
Most players just let Jaylen dunk there, but Giannis is super-freak and thinks to himself, "It's the playoffs, I have to keep guarding." So he reaches out an arm to try to block the shot as Jaylen goes up:
At this point, he should and probably does realize that there's nothing he can do, but he still lays an arm into Jaylen's side. Does he have to because he's already put his arm out and he's just bending it away from Jaylen? Is he lightly shoving him trying to affect his ability to finish? It's hard to say.
But, to me, with this finish, it does seem like he's actively pushing him, if even just a little, and doing it on purpose:
And then, at the end, he seems to be explaining to Jaylen like, "hey, I bent my arm, I didn't push you."
Then he tries to put a hand on his shoulder and Jaylen tells him to fuck right off.
Jaylen seems to be thinking, "If you pushed me even the slightest bit harder, I'd be lying on the ground with a concussion right now." Which is probably true. And Giannis probably thinks he's so in control that never would have happened.
You can see how far away Giannis was as Jaylen gathers:
Most players just let Jaylen dunk there, but Giannis is super-freak and thinks to himself, "It's the playoffs, I have to keep guarding." So he reaches out an arm to try to block the shot as Jaylen goes up:
At this point, he should and probably does realize that there's nothing he can do, but he still lays an arm into Jaylen's side. Does he have to because he's already put his arm out and he's just bending it away from Jaylen? Is he lightly shoving him trying to affect his ability to finish? It's hard to say.
But, to me, with this finish, it does seem like he's actively pushing him, if even just a little, and doing it on purpose:
And then, at the end, he seems to be explaining to Jaylen like, "hey, I bent my arm, I didn't push you."
Then he tries to put a hand on his shoulder and Jaylen tells him to fuck right off.
Jaylen seems to be thinking, "If you pushed me even the slightest bit harder, I'd be lying on the ground with a concussion right now." Which is probably true. And Giannis probably thinks he's so in control that never would have happened.
Not sure it was the push so much as he almost undercut him with the body while Jaylen was in the air.
Yes, it COULD be dangerous IF he pushed. He didn't though, so it is nothing more than a common foul and not even a hard foul. Listen, Giannnis has been beating dudes up left and right - this particular play is not one to highlight though
Yep. As you can see in the very helpful images, I think this is what peeved him. Look at the knee into his left foot, which then clipped into his right foot and almost caused him to lose balance in the air.
Smart had 15 potential assists and only 3 turnovers, Tatum had 13 and only 2 turnovers.
That many creation opportunities and only 5
combined turnovers is huge against any team, but especially against a team so turnover dependent like the Bucks.
That many creation opportunities and only 5
combined turnovers is huge against any team, but especially against a team so turnover dependent like the Bucks.
Yeah, they don't want guys who are in flight getting contacted like that on plays where there is no legitimate attempt on the ball. Giannis is trying to challenge everything even when there's no play to be had, and we've already seen guys injured in these playoffs on that shit. The slightest push in the back on that can result in a broken arm or a torn ACL/achilles.
This is not a Giannis pile-on. I love his intensity and balls out approach. But there's a line.
Right so we agree. Which is why Jaylen didn’t flip out but was pissed. Jaylen felt him close and knows it COULD have gone bad and was reckless at best
It definitely wasn’t a strong karate kick or anything like that. More of a get out of my space type maneuver but he definitely extends his leg like a kicking motion.
Matthews' defense looks a LOT worse if Tatum knocks down even a few of those wide open shots he missed the last couple of games. Yes he's made SOME shots hard for Tatum, but Tatum has missed some wide open looks. (well wide open by NBA standards)