Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion

Who you got?

  • Celts in 4

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Celts in 5

    Votes: 69 32.5%
  • Celts in 6

    Votes: 106 50.0%
  • Celts in 7

    Votes: 25 11.8%
  • Bucks in 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 6

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Bucks in 7

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Total voters
    212
  • Poll closed .

Cellar-Door

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The Celtics looking to avoid playing their #7 & #8 man (2nd & 3rd string PGs) in the rotation together, versus a team that already plays extremely BIG + against the Bucks #1 & #2 rotational players, in the playoffs where rotations are shortened, seems rather obvious/natural

3-days off between games and these guys are searching for talking points
What I think is interesting though and I think Lowe's point, was that they aren't really looking to avoid that pairing, they ONLY don't want it when they Bucks' two stars are both on court. It's an interesting point for him less because of what it says about that matchup than what is says about the Celtics lack of concern on D for basically anything that isn't a Jrue/Giannis PnR action. It came in a general discussion of how the Bucks need to find something else to go to, and how much they miss Middleton, because even the side PnR that worked some late in game 2, is really only concerning to the Celtics when it is Giannis and Jrue, and given what those guys need to give on D, you can't ask them to run that 40 times a game. Conversely, that the Celtics want Pritchard's shooting, and MIL's obvious response should be to pressure him on ball and target him on D, but being able to play him with White, means White can be the on-ball guy, who is far more capable of making passes and limiting turnovers against pressure, and on D, that should be the lineup to attack, but the Bucks only have the personnel to do it when Jrue is in. So Ime is able to steal rest for his guys and overcome a Smart injury, by using a pairing that should be a defensive weakness (by Celtics terms, most teams would kill for White to be the 2nd worst defender on the floor) knowing that he only has to avoid 1 particular Bucks lineup.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You may be reading more into that than exists. Game 2 there was no Smart so PP/White had to split ball-handling duties. Game 1 PP was brought in early and wasn't effective. Strangely MIL hasn't really been hunting matchups in the halfcourt, probably see that change going forward
Middleton is their primary hunter for matchup advantages and this is an area he’s really missed. I do feel one adjustment they will make tonight is utilizing actions with Holiday and maybe running stuff more with Lopez above the circle. I think there will be less Giannis 1-on-4’s off the dribble from the foul line while picking spots with it rather than this being their primary offensive strategy.
 

benhogan

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What I think is interesting though and I think Lowe's point, was that they aren't really looking to avoid that pairing, they ONLY don't want it when they Bucks' two stars are both on court. It's an interesting point for him less because of what it says about that matchup than what is says about the Celtics lack of concern on D for basically anything that isn't a Jrue/Giannis PnR action. It came in a general discussion of how the Bucks need to find something else to go to, and how much they miss Middleton, because even the side PnR that worked some late in game 2, is really only concerning to the Celtics when it is Giannis and Jrue, and given what those guys need to give on D, you can't ask them to run that 40 times a game. Conversely, that the Celtics want Pritchard's shooting, and MIL's obvious response should be to pressure him on ball and target him on D, but being able to play him with White, means White can be the on-ball guy, who is far more capable of making passes and limiting turnovers against pressure, and on D, that should be the lineup to attack, but the Bucks only have the personnel to do it when Jrue is in. So Ime is able to steal rest for his guys and overcome a Smart injury, by using a pairing that should be a defensive weakness (by Celtics terms, most teams would kill for White to be the 2nd worst defender on the floor) knowing that he only has to avoid 1 particular Bucks lineup.
that's fair. IME and his staff have done a phenomenal job of exploiting their own rotations strengths at just about every turn since New Year.
after re-watching Game2 I noticed Giannis attack PP one time. PP dug in and forced him out of bounds on the baseline. Even our clear worst defender gives max effort and isn't fundamentally weak (like a certain shrimpy PG from the recent past)
 

bigq

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This team is so much damn fun. If you haven't already, check out this video of Grant v Tatum in warm-ups.

Thanks for posting. It’s a standard pregame routine for those two to practice semi-contested threes from that spot. I took my daughter to a game a few weeks ago and we sat nearby. We enjoyed watching them warm up and it was clear that there was a lot of back and forth talking and laughter throughout but we were not within earshot of the conversation. Seeing them clowning around and laughing together is part of what makes this team so likable. The winning helps too. ;)
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benhogan

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Middleton is their primary hunter for matchup advantages and this is an area he’s really missed. I do feel one adjustment they will make tonight is utilizing actions with Holiday and maybe running stuff more with Lopez above the circle. I think there will be less Giannis 1-on-4’s off the dribble from the foul line while picking spots with it rather than this being their primary offensive strategy.
the amazing part was the C's were showing Giannis a 4-man box around the lane but were letting Grant/Horford hold off Giannis by themselves. They cut off the Giannis kick out for step-in 3 which killed Boston in Game 1.

The recipe for clamping the Bucks offense is
1. Celtics limit live ball TO's at the top on offense, avoiding easy transition points for the Bucks
2. Grant/Horford handle GA solo in the halfcourt - live with Giannis inefficient point totals.
3. Not helping on GA means cutting off the kick-out 3s to Portis, Holiday, Connaughton, Lopez, Grayson

The Jrue/Giannis PnR will be the natural Buck adjustment. Hoping Marcus is well enough to withstand the physicality here.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Thanks for posting. It’s a standard pregame routine for those two to practice semi-contested threes from that spot. I took my daughter to a game a few weeks ago and we sat nearby. We enjoyed watching them warm up and it was clear that there was a lot of back and forth talking and laughter throughout but we were not within earshot of the conversation. Seeing them clowning around and laughing together is part of what makes this team so likable. The winning help too. ;)
Nice pic. On warmups, I'll note that Karalis said that when he was watching, Derrick White hit everything he threw up.

Kind of like Nesmith (as reported by DOTB).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Middleton is their primary hunter for matchup advantages and this is an area he’s really missed. I do feel one adjustment they will make tonight is utilizing actions with Holiday and maybe running stuff more with Lopez above the circle. I think there will be less Giannis 1-on-4’s off the dribble from the foul line while picking spots with it rather than this being their primary offensive strategy.
One G2 review I saw had clips of MIL having some success getting Giannis in the post. I think try that as well.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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For as good as Grant has looked to the eye, +/- numbers just don't look good for him. Regular season was the same.
Alot of his minutes were matched with GA, right? Not sure how to find it, but if so, it's easy to see why +/- doesn't capture his true value
 

Eddie Jurak

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For as good as Grant has looked to the eye, +/- numbers just don't look good for him. Regular season was the same.
Is there a relative aspect to these type of numbers, though? The Celtics starting five has the best +/- in the league. If, instead, they were closer to average, Grant's +/- would be better in comparison.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Celtics had an effective plan for dealing with Derrick White's shooting issues in game 2.

How do you defend a wing who can't/won't shoot? Answer, you drop off to stop them penetrating. This fell right into Milwaukee's "give up the three" defensive strategy.

White is the guy Milwaukee was happy to leave open, and they eventually put Giannis on him so that he could be free to help off of him, much as the Celtics do with Rob.

What Milwaukee wanted when they left White open was for White to take the three OR for White to drive and get swallowed up - and the "drive and get swallowed up" happened to a lot of Celtics in game 1.

Late in game 2, when White was left open he would drive, but as he did another Celtic would rotate to where he had just been. Milwaukee's focus on packing the paint ans swallowing up the drive meant that that guy would be left open. Here, White, in passing up a wide open shot, creates one for Jayson Tatum:

View: https://gfycat.com/oblongglumhogget
 

joe dokes

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The Celtics had an effective plan for dealing with Derrick White's shooting issues in game 2.

How do you defend a wing who can't/won't shoot? Answer, you drop off to stop them penetrating. This fell right into Milwaukee's "give up the three" defensive strategy.

White is the guy Milwaukee was happy to leave open, and they eventually put Giannis on him so that he could be free to help off of him, much as the Celtics do with Rob.

What Milwaukee wanted when they left White open was for White to take the three OR for White to drive and get swallowed up - and the "drive and get swallowed up" happened to a lot of Celtics in game 1.

Late in game 2, when White was left open he would drive, but as he did another Celtic would rotate to where he had just been. Milwaukee's focus on packing the paint ans swallowing up the drive meant that that guy would be left open. Here, White, in passing up a wide open shot, creates one for Jayson Tatum:

View: https://gfycat.com/oblongglumhogget
That was one of the times SVG pointed out that Tatum ran the baseline to the corner to fill the spot that white left. According to SVG, defenses don't follow the driver/disher to the corner very well when they do that. I think there was a similar play when JT dished to JB in the corner, JB cut toward the lane and JT was open in the vacated corner.
 

the moops

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That was one of the times SVG pointed out that Tatum ran the baseline to the corner to fill the spot that white left. According to SVG, defenses don't follow the driver/disher to the corner very well when they do that. I think there was a similar play when JT dished to JB in the corner, JB cut toward the lane and JT was open in the vacated corner.
Yea, that is a pretty sick simple little play. The relocation to the corner after the drive. Both Matthews and Holiday are very good defenders and both of them got burned on that
 

Eddie Jurak

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What a fucking emotional roller coater this one was.

For starters, the angry way I felt towards the Celtics after game 1... magnify it 10-fold and apply it to the refs. It has never been so clear to me as it was today that there is a whole separate set of rules that apply to Giannis. He was allowed to goaltend, run over whomever he wanted and usually get the call, play dangerously with impunity.

In the second quarter, Tatum was going in for a fast break dunk, and Giannis, allegedly going for a chase down block, came at Tatum directly from behind and fucking drilled him into the stanchion. Tatum was down for a while and seemed to have injured his left hand/arm. Common foul. The dunk was good but he missed the free throw. Any other player in the league did that foul, it's at least a flagrant 1. He ran over several Celtics in the first half, only once called. In the second half, Grant, guarding Giannis off ball, has established defensive position and isn't moving. Giannis trucks him. Foul on Grant. Grant ended up playing the 4th quarter with 4 and 5 fouls, Ime took him off of Giannis, and Giannis schooled (not trucked) Jaylen Brown a couple of times. Another play in the second half, Giannis trying to post up Grant from the left block. Giannis bumps Grant once and tries to use his arm to clear Grant out of his way, Grant isn't moved out of the way, Giannis lowers the shoulder and drills Grant in the chest, and scores, no call. Another play: Giannis drives at Al and Rob, tries to split them. Al fouls Giannis (legitimate), who clears Rob out by gathering the ball and shoving it into Rob's face. I've never seen the ball used as a blunt instrument to deliver a blow to the head before.

Other bullshit was Rob Williams getting elbowed in the head and having to leave the game (no call), Mathews dove and cut blocked White's legs out from under him in pursuit of a loose ball (common foul), some Grasyon Allen bullshit (one no call, one foul called on Pritchard that looked like Allen pulling Pritchard down on him). Lopez, battling a man at least 9 inches shorter than he under the basket (Smart), finally pulls Smart down on top of him and the refs call a fucking double foul. Grant's foul trouble and Rob's getting elbowed in the head forced Theis into the game for 2 useless minutes in the third, which didn't help the Celtics.

That's not a complete list, but on top of that were ticky tack calls against the C's. Borderline charge called (and upheld) on Grant while Giannis is just trucking guys and going to the line.

I lost respect for Giannis in this game - he might have injured Tatum on a reckless play, and if the refs keep letting him play recklessly, he will injure players. I don't know that he is dirty per se, but I am starting to wonder. It's disgusting to me that the Celtics might lose a playoff series because the refs are basically letting Giannis play like a TE/LB.

The first half was a rock fight. The Celtics as a team were not great at sticking with their offensive system when the Bucks defended them with physicality. They did a lot of settling for the first shot and missing, or driving and getting swallowed up inside. On the occassions when they did move the ball they tended to get better results. They were down by 3 after one, up by 4 after 2, taking advantage of Giannis missing the end of the half after getting called for his third personal on a reach in. He's trucking guys left and right, clearing guys out with his arm or with a a shoulder drive into the chest, and they call in on a ticky tack reach in.

Third quarter was a different story. Celtics offense was almost not there, and I think the bullshit way the game was being called got to them. Tatum, who had maybe he worst playoff game ever, lost his focus and the team as a whole lost its composure. They were outscored 34-17 in the quarter and entered the 4th down 13, 80-67.

And, damn it if they didn't come to play in that quarter, especially Al Horford and Jaylen Brown. With 3:44 to go and down by 2, the Celtics played a great defensive sequence that ended with a Tatum steal and Smart getting fouled. He missed the first free throw, hit the second to bring them within one, 97-96. After neither team scores (Connaughton misses a three and then Tatum misses a 13 footer), Giannis scores to put the Bucks up 3. Holliday fouls Brown, who hits the pair to cut the Bucks lead to one, 99-98. Celtics get a stop, and Al Horford, who has played a great game and quarter, makes a rare bad decision by channeling Marcus Smart and heaving up a 29 foot deep three, which misses. Plenty of time on the clock when he lot it go. The Celtics get a stop, Brown gets fouled, hits both, and the Celtics are up 1, 100-99. The Celtics get another stop, fueled by great defense and a Brown block of a Giannis layup attempt. Milwaukee plays good defense and Brown is forced to take a deep three with the clock running down - he missed but Grant comes flying in out of nowhere and grabs the rebound, kicks it to Smart, who throws up another deep three and misses. The Horford and Smart deep three misses in the final 2:04 are going to stick with me along with all of the bullshit officiating. Bucks rebound the Smart miss and call time. Giannis scores easily to put them back up one with 44 seconds left. Brown misses with 35 seconds left and Milwaukee gets the rebound, Holliday hits a short jumper with 11.2 seconds left to put the Celtics up 3. At the other end, Smart tries to do the "draw contact with the defender and throw up a heave," the call no one gets anymore, and the refs call a floor foul, sending Marcus to the line for 2 shots (Bucks are over the limit) with 4.6 left. Marcus hits the first, then throws up the deliberate miss... and rebounds it! Smart misses a 5-footer, Rob misses a tip-in, Al misses a tip-in, time expires before his second tip in goes in - the ball was touching his hand when the buzzer sounded. No basket, Bucks win by 2. That close. As close as game 1 vs Brooklyn.

The positives from this game in terms of player performances:
  • Al was a monster. I think it was him that led the comeback in the 4th. He scored 22 points on 9-17 shooting, 4-7 from three. 16 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 blocks, zero turnovers. With the Celtics down 6, and 5:21 left, Al scored 7 points in a 1:11 stretch where the Bucks only hit a three to bring the Celtics to within 2 and set up the end game. Altogether he scored 12 of the Celtics 34 4th quarter points and would have had 14 of their 36 had he gotten the tip at the end. His teammates need to learn from the example he set in being able to maintain composure through the bullshit officiating. I hope the team realizes that they let him down with their third quarter lapse.
  • Jaylen was also there to play in the fourth. He led the team with 27 points on 8-16 from the field and 10-11 from the line, along with 12 rebounds, 4 assists, and a block. He did have 4 turnovers, but overall it was a great game from Jaylen. He had 15 in the 4th, so between Brown and Horford, that was 27 of 34 points. The 4 free throws down the tretch were key.
  • This was the first game where Rob really started to look like the Rob we know and love. In 23 minutes, he scored 10 points on 5-9 shooting and added 5 rebounds, which doesn't sound like much, but this was one of his "fill out the whole stat line" games, with 4 assists, 2 steals, and 3 blocks. He also endured having the ball thrust into his face as if it were a weapon by Giannis and then took a more routine elbow to the head at the other end. That limited his minutes (gave us 2 useless Theis minutes).
  • Derrick White layed a strong 21 minutes and, if I am going to second guess Ime about anything he did, it was not finding more minutes for Derrick White. For the econd straight game, White led the Celtics in +/-, which I think was indicative of 3 things: the ball movement was always better with White in the game than with him out of it, he shot better (3-6 from the field but 2-3 from 3), and he aggressively looked to penetrate and got himself to the line (where he shot 6 for 8). He was the Celtics' third leading scorer after Brown and Horford, with 14 points. I think Ime needed to find minutes for him, although I 100% understand why he did not, which I will get to.
The mediocre:
  • Grant Williams numbers' came back to earth in a big way. He shot 2-9 from the field and 1-6 from three, scoring a total of 9 points, adding 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks. Giannis also went off for 42, though he needed to hoist up 30 shots to get there. I still think this was a pretty good game from Grant. He was a +8, and he battled despite playing at a disadvantage. I think Ime felt that he needed Grant's defense out there, which meant that he, and not White, got to play down the stretch. But when Grant picke up foul #5 and Ime took him off of Giannis, I think a case could have been made for getting White in there. But, then again, the Celtics offense was good in the 4th, until late.
The varying degress of bad:
  • Marcus Smart. 9 points on 1-8 shooting from the field (6-8 from the line). 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 3 turnovers. The first bad Mar cus game we have seen in awhile. I wonder how much was the injury? Yet, at the end, he drew the foul that led to the intentional miss that he rebounded and the Celtic came a split second away from tying it at the buzzer.
  • Jayson Tatum. Worst playoff game of his life, bad enough to make me wonder if he was injured when Giannis trucked him. Ten points on 4 of 19 from the field. That's right, four of fucking 19. Missed all six of his threes. Barely even got to the line, shooting only 2-3 from there. But it gets worse. One rebound. 41 minutes played and one stinking rebound. Three assists and one steal. The one thing he did do right was block 4 shots. Also 3 turnovers, but like Smart, not much production alongside his turnovers. It's hard to recall a case of a star player delivering such a no show. If he is healthy, he has something he needs to figure out and quick.
  • Payton Pritchard. Don't look now, but he is having a worse shooting series that Derrick White. He was 0-3 today, 0-2 from three. He did have 2 assists in 11 minutes. (White, oddly, had no assists, even though the offsense clearly flows better with him in the game).
The 7 4th quarter points not scored by Al and Jaylen were a White 3, a Tatum 2, and two Smart free throws.

All in all, there was a real mix of good and bad coming out of this game.

The garbage officiating was sickening, I will never be convinced that they were not intentionally biased, either in favor of the Bucks or just in favor of Giannis. There were enough bullshit calls and non-calls to make the difference in the outcome of this game.

Giannis is going to end someone's career if he is allowed to play the way he did today. The star calls and non-calls is one thing, but the reckless disregard that let him to drill Tatum in the air from behind just disgusts me, as did the ball ---> face maneuver he used against Rob. He shouldn't be allowed to run guys all over the court just because he is 7 feet and athletic.

The Celtics need to be way, way better at getting into and running their offense. When they did, it worked for them, but they frequently did not.

The Celtics losing their composure and focus in the third is another reason they lost. The game was tied 54 apiece with 8:36 to go, and the Bucks went on a 12-2 run in under 2.5 minutes. The Celtic cut it to 5, but then let the Bucks open it to 13, where it was at quarter's end. They were in their heads at this point, esepcially Tatum, who was losing track of his defensive responsibilities.

For all of those negative things, they fought back from a 13 point 4th quarter deficit to come within tenths of a second of sending it to OT, which is a realy credit to the team.

Looking forward, there are good and bad ways to see this:

Good: They nearly overcame a stinker from Tatum, a key third quarter lapse, and everything the Bucks and the officials threw at them and took what could have become a blowout to OT. Milwaukee's got nothing else to throw at them, and in a game where Tatum is just bad instead of terrible, it wouldn't be enough. And the refs can't just let Giannis play football out there again. Can they?

Bad: Maybe Smart's injury was a factor in his poor play. Maybe Tatum was hurt on the Giannis foul. Maybe the league thinks letting Giannis kill a Celtic or 2 is good for ratings.

I don't know what comes next. The Celtics did not need this win, but they need game 4.








.
 

Auger34

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Long post above so I don’t want to quote tweet it but…

Im not sure if Giannis is a dirty player. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, IMO, you didn’t mention his two dirtiest plays.
#1 was, attempting to get a flagrant called on Grant Williams, he uses his arm to clamp down on Grants arm. He then tries to arm drag him, before realizing he can’t, so he just falls down. It’s a minor miracle he didn’t separate his shoulder or hyperextend his elbow.

Second play was with Pritchard but very similar. Pritchard tries to reach in and steal the ball, Giannis pulls the same maneuver he did with Grant and clamps down on his arm before quickly doing a turnaround. Again, I have no idea how PP didn’t separate his shoulder here.

But somehow, Giannis thinks that the refs are against him!! Unfuckingreal

View: https://twitter.com/BenGolliver/status/1523083429776138240
 

NomarsFool

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It’s “interesting” they kept showing the highlight where Giannis steps around one defender (great athletic play) and then clearly ran over Marcus Smart (no call).

Giannis is a great, exciting player in transition and many of those plays are tough calls because he moves so fast, he’s so big, and his stride is unreal. But in the half court, he’s trash. Those 3PA were just stupid. You want to take a shot with a 15% chance of going in? You are hurting your team.
 

Red Averages

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I’m pretty pissed at the refs too. That said, we need to look forward:

- In game 1 the Celtics could not shoot at all and turned it over a ton. They were within a few possessions for nearly the entire game.
- in game 2 the Celtics shot fantastic and it was a blowout the entire game.
- in game 3 the Celtics shot horrifically again, their best player played his worst playoff game ever, the other teams best player scored over 40, the Refs had a major influence on the game, yet the team was up 1 on the road with 1 minute left and had not one, but two wide open threes to clintxh the win and missed. They had a potential to tie it with free throws taken away by refs. They missed a tying tip in by 0.2 to send it to OT.

the Celtics should be overwhelming favorites to win this series. It’s very likely they get a favorable whistle in game 4 after this one ( and the NBA wanting a 7 game series).

Win game 4 (miraculously a coin flip), get home for game 5 and then close it down in game 6 on the road like a championship team would.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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It honestly doesn't even matter if his halfcourt is trash or if he takes dumb threes. Until he begins some sort of physical decline he will relentlessly pummel opposing players physically, live on the line, and carry his team.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I’m pretty pissed at the refs too. That said, we need to look forward:

- In game 1 the Celtics could not shoot at all and turned it over a ton. They were within a few possessions for nearly the entire game.
- in game 2 the Celtics shot fantastic and it was a blowout the entire game.
- in game 3 the Celtics shot horrifically again, their best player played his worst playoff game ever, the other teams best player scored over 40, the Refs had a major influence on the game, yet the team was up 1 on the road with 1 minute left and had not one, but two wide open threes to clintxh the win and missed. They had a potential to tie it with free throws taken away by refs. They missed a tying tip in by 0.2 to send it to OT.

the Celtics should be overwhelming favorites to win this series. It’s very likely they get a favorable whistle in game 4 after this one ( and the NBA wanting a 7 game series).

Win game 4 (miraculously a coin flip), get home for game 5 and then close it down in game 6 on the road like a championship team would.
I draw a (potentially) different inference from this. If your goal is 7 games, and that is going to show up in the officiating, you don't give the Bucks every chance to try to go up 2-0 in Boston in a game that is otherwise looking like a blowout, as the refs did. And you want Boston to get its home court back so you don't pull out all the stops to fuck them in game 3, as the refs did.

I think the Celtics are more likely to have a player stretchered off the court on Monday after a Giannis hit than they are to get a friendly whistle.

Giannis is the league's biggest star and the league wants him in the finals trying to repeat.

Milwaukee may need all of the help it can get to beat the Celtics, and even then maybe it will not be enough. But they are going to get whatever help the refs can give them.

Edit: Evidently, the fouling of Smart at the end... the officials called it a rip through move (strategy for drawing a floor foul). Why the fuck would Marcus Smart have been doing that with 4.6 seconds left. Clearly he was attempting a shot and fouled in the process - should have had a third shot.
 

Red Averages

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I don’t think the refs purposely gave the Bucks the game. I think they made some bad calls and got caught up in the home crowd environment.

I suspect watching these replays for 48 hours and maybe a slight nudge from the league office will lead to a different outcome on Monday.


regardless, I don’t think Giannis outscores Tatum by 32. Celtics win by 6+
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don’t think the refs purposely gave the Bucks the game. I think they made some bad calls and got caught up in the home crowd environment.

I suspect watching these replays for 48 hours and maybe a slight nudge from the league office will lead to a different outcome on Monday.


regardless, I don’t think Giannis outscores Tatum by 32. Celtics win by 6+
I hope so. I'm not sure how different "purposely helping the Bucks" and "Giannis' special rules" are. Maybe the latter is mostly what they were doing.

John Karalis has a comment about the shot at the end.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2022/05/07/bucks-103-celtics-101-rough-tatum-night-costs-celtics-chance-to-take-series-lead
This is my least-favorite aspect of the game because it will be one of the big headlines when the Celtics could have just played a better third quarter to win this game. However, since we’re here, there was plenty to be upset about for the Celtics. I’ll go into more detail below, but I’ll just focus on that 3-point attempt by Smart.

You can’t get a more obvious shot attempt than that play. They called it a rip-through move, but the foul was committed before Smart could ever rip through.

“It was a foul. It was a foul. He caught the ball, he was turning into his shot, both feet set," Ime Udoka said. "You can’t say that was a sweep. You’re going into a shot. Poor call, poor no call. I saw it in person, but also just saw it on film. It’s a shot. Curling into a shot, he’s getting fouled on the way up, bad missed call."
Ime had already used his challenge, but even if he had his challenge the rules would not have allowed him to use it here, because the call was (technically) in the Celtics favor (mart was fouled). You cannot challenge the type of foul called under current rules.

On the other calls/non-calls:
I don’t care if you’re sick of me reiterating this, but I hate talking about the officials THAT much. Boston missed chance after chance to win this game despite the officiating, so I will state it quite clearly that this is not why Boston lost.

With that said…

The officiating has to be better in this series. I’m sure both sides will agree with that. And while some might say “well it was bad on both sides so it evened out,” I still would like for it to be good on both sides. For instance, here's Udoka's version of the explanation he was given an uncalled charge on Giannis Antetokounmpo.

"Their explanation is, if they don't fall down, they don't call it. So gotta teach my guys to flop a little more," he said, which is not something you want to hear a coach say.
Really? The officials answer to their shitshow is "you need to flop more."
Bobby Portis’ elbow that knocked Robert Williams out of the game for a short time has to be called. That's an elbow to the head. That's a priority in the NBA. That not only was a missed call, but that should have been a Flagrant 1 under today’s rules.
They let go a fucking elbow to the head.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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There is no logic to the ruling on Smart’s shot in a league where if you are touched while picking up your dribble, then take two full steps and make a layup, it is a shooting foul.
 

BaseballJones

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There were lots of calls that bothered me, but the only one I'm really going to go nuts over is the last one on Smart. I said this in the game thread, but any ref with more than a ten cent head knows that Smart is shooting there. There's 4 seconds on the clock. The Celtics are down by 3 points. They haven't tried to take it to the basket so OBVIOUSLY at that point they're looking for a three point shot. It was a bit of a scramble at that moment. Smart comes around the screen and clearly turns to shoot. As he starts to jump and enter his shooting motion, he gets raked across the arm. Obviously a foul. So they did get that right. But in that moment the refs need to take three seconds to talk about it and it was an absolute no-brainer that he was in shooting motion. Everything about that instance demanded that conclusion. His jumping. His arm action (not a rip through, a clear shooting motion). And the score and time on the clock. It was so frigging clear that he was shooting in that moment. What ELSE could he have been doing?

It was the single most egregiously wrong call of the day and it came at the single biggest moment of the game.
 

BaseballJones

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There is no logic to the ruling on Smart’s shot in a league where if you are touched while picking up your dribble, then take two full steps and make a layup, it is a shooting foul.
I asked my son this when it happened. I was like, how can the NBA be ok with "continuation" but not call what Smart did a shooting foul?
 

Eddie Jurak

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There is no logic to the ruling on Smart’s shot in a league where if you are touched while picking up your dribble, then take two full steps and make a layup, it is a shooting foul.
I thin the logic, such as it is, is that refs took this for what I did - a player behind the arc trying to turn a floor foul into a shooting one by making a heave. This used to be common and the refs made it a point of emphasis to stop calling those shooting fouls.

But this was not that, as any ref should have known.

This also sucked:
View: https://twitter.com/celticsvsevery1/status/1523066905455915008?s=21&t=yfa4nkzyOvrQuukBcHT1mA
 

lars10

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There were lots of calls that bothered me, but the only one I'm really going to go nuts over is the last one on Smart. I said this in the game thread, but any ref with more than a ten cent head knows that Smart is shooting there. There's 4 seconds on the clock. The Celtics are down by 3 points. They haven't tried to take it to the basket so OBVIOUSLY at that point they're looking for a three point shot. It was a bit of a scramble at that moment. Smart comes around the screen and clearly turns to shoot. As he starts to jump and enter his shooting motion, he gets raked across the arm. Obviously a foul. So they did get that right. But in that moment the refs need to take three seconds to talk about it and it was an absolute no-brainer that he was in shooting motion. Everything about that instance demanded that conclusion. His jumping. His arm action (not a rip through, a clear shooting motion). And the score and time on the clock. It was so frigging clear that he was shooting in that moment. What ELSE could he have been doing?

It was the single most egregiously wrong call of the day and it came at the single biggest moment of the game.
My thought was more.. that call was intentional.. you know it’s fairly close to a foul on the floor, you know Milwaukee is over the limit… and you know Boston is down by 3… NBA doesn’t deserve benefit of the doubt.. Donnaghy.. and then using Crawford in any playoffs after his game with Duncan.. using refs they know will control games etc.. Has any other sport had the same kind of actual and potential corruption with officiating? Who investigated Donaghy? Are we really to believe that he was the only one? Or that he told or asked no one else?

edit: for the longest time the excuse was that the game was too fast.. and I would wonder.. then why do we have active refs in their 60s and 70s
 

Imbricus

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I watched the whole game. My big takeaways were:

(1) Yeah, gamethreads often degenerate into complaining about the officials, but I think that was the worst officiated game the Celts have seen in the playoffs. Bad calls, no calls ... Portis drove his elbow into Rob's head, sending Rob to the floor, no call. Milwaukee broke up a fast break, clearly fouling Tatum, no call. Giannis slammed his body into people multiple times to create space (usually Grant), and either no call or the defender was called for a foul. I think the refs haven't figured out how to officiate Giannis and his bully-ball style.

(2) Even if the refs are bad, Celtics have to grow up and play twice as hard instead of chirping about missed calls all the time. Tatum has been prone to this, and Grant is starting to do it too much too.

(3) Tatum was just awful. His body language started to suck too sometime late in the third quarter. The thing about Tatum this year is that he's figured out how to contribute in other ways when he has a bad shooting game, but yesterday there wasn't a lot of evidence of that. Only three assists to three turnovers (though he did have four blocks). He was outrebounded by Pritchard. He only got to the line for three free throws (compared with 11 for Jaylen). He's either got to be more physical and draw some fouls or those easy shots he was missing have to fall.
 

m0ckduck

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There were lots of calls that bothered me, but the only one I'm really going to go nuts over is the last one on Smart. I said this in the game thread, but any ref with more than a ten cent head knows that Smart is shooting there. There's 4 seconds on the clock. The Celtics are down by 3 points. They haven't tried to take it to the basket so OBVIOUSLY at that point they're looking for a three point shot. It was a bit of a scramble at that moment. Smart comes around the screen and clearly turns to shoot. As he starts to jump and enter his shooting motion, he gets raked across the arm. Obviously a foul. So they did get that right. But in that moment the refs need to take three seconds to talk about it and it was an absolute no-brainer that he was in shooting motion. Everything about that instance demanded that conclusion. His jumping. His arm action (not a rip through, a clear shooting motion). And the score and time on the clock. It was so frigging clear that he was shooting in that moment. What ELSE could he have been doing?

It was the single most egregiously wrong call of the day and it came at the single biggest moment of the game.
It clear that, on some instinctual level, the refs got caught up in the idea that Smart shouldn’t get to “exploit” the contact and profit by going to the line for the same potential reward as hitting a game-tying three. It’s like they found the outcome disapponting and so disallowed it. Which is the same thing as getting caught up in the home crowd emotion, and should be beneath the standards of any ref working the postseason.

i don’t think their explanations about the rip-through and so forth are even worth countenancing. They got caught up in the moment, plain and simple, which sucks.
 

Eddie Jurak

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(1) Yeah, gamethreads often degenerate into complaining about the officials, but I think that was the worst officiated game the Celts have seen in the playoffs. Bad calls, no calls ... Portis drove his elbow into Rob's head, sending Rob to the floor, no call. Milwaukee broke up a fast break, clearly fouling Tatum, no call. Giannis slammed his body into people multiple times to create space (usually Grant), and either no call or the defender was called for a foul. I think the refs haven't figured out how to officiate Giannis and his bully-ball style.
I give up on NBA points of emphasis. Supposedly, making contact with a player from behind, in the air is a point of emphasis... but not if the contact is made by Giannis driving Tatum into the stanchion. Giannis is allowed to do that. Hits to the head suppoesdly a point of emphasis, but Ron takes a pair of hits that are ignored. The switch to Brown on Giannis late in the game that absolutely failed was necessitated by Grant being in foul trouble because Giannis kept running him over and Grant kept being called for it.

I am afraid that the refs will treat this as a "can't put the genie back in the bottle" situation and they will just let Giannis do all the same shit and more. Or, we will move from an officiating crew that told Ime "your guys need to flop" to one that will ignore contact when players flip.

This game destroyed any confidence I had that these games will be played on a level field. The fucking Bucks fans are pissed about the officiating, too, and maybe the refs will choose to favor the home team in game 4 even more blatantly than they did in this one.
(2) Even if the refs are bad, Celtics have to grow up and play twice as hard instead of chirping about missed calls all the time. Tatum has been prone to this, and Grant is starting to do it too much too.

(3) Tatum was just awful. His body language started to suck too sometime late in the third quarter. The thing about Tatum this year is that he's figured out how to contribute in other ways when he has a bad shooting game, but yesterday there wasn't a lot of evidence of that. Only three assists to three turnovers (though he did have four blocks). He was outrebounded by Pritchard. He only got to the line for three free throws (compared with 11 for Jaylen). He's either got to be more physical and draw some fouls or those easy shots he was missing have to fall.
These are both true. Tatum contributed almost nothing yesterday. 10 points on terrible shooting. Barely got to the line. Didn't rebound. Didn;t create for teammates. For all of that nothing, turned it over 3 times.

He led the team with 41 minutes, while Derrick White, who played a much better game, got 21. I know I'll catch hell for this, but maybe 2 fewer minutes from Tatum - 39 instead of 41 - and two more for White and the Celtics pull this one out?

Game 4 and this series are now career defining for Tatum. If he produces another crap game in game 4, and the Celtics drop the series, that will put an end to the "top 5" talk for a good long time.
It clear that, on some instinctual level, the refs got caught up in the idea that Smart shouldn’t be allowed to “exploit” the contact and profit by going to the line for the same potential reward as hitting a game-tying three. It’s like they found the outcome disapponting and so disallowed it. Which is the same thing as getting caught up in the home crowd emotion, and should be beneath the standards of any ref working the postseason.

i don’t think their explanations about the rip-through and so forth are even worth countenancing. They got caught up in the moment, plain and simple, which sucks.
The use of replay in the NBA is beyond fucked up. if they cannot use it to get as crucial a call as that right, they should not use it at all.
 

NomarsFool

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Tatum needed to drive the ball. Too much fadeaway and too much 3PA when they aren’t falling for him. In many of these games I feel like the Celtics get the Bucks in foul trouble, but instead of exploiting it, they stop going at the defender in foul trouble. I know the refs are swallowing their whistles when these guys get 4-5 fouls, and I am sure that driving to the basket and getting clobbered hurts a lot- I get it. But, they NEED to keep doing it. The offense can’t be all Horford three pointers.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Player A: 4 for 17 from the field (4 for 14 from three). Averaging 4.0 points, 2.3 rebounds, 2.0 assists. -14.

Player B: 5 for 18 from the field (4 for 10 from three, 10 for 12 from the line). Averaging 8.0 points, 3.3 rebounds, 2.0 assists. +23.

Player C: 4 for 19 from the field (2 for 10 from three, 9 for 12 from the line). Averaging 9.5 points, 1.4 rebounds, 4.0 assists. -7.
 

Leon Trotsky

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I just watched the Dillon Brooks ejection again, and while there are slight differences, the Giannis play on Tatum was clearly dangerous and should have been a flagrant 1. Like, perfect example is if Brooks is a flagrant 2, then Giannis definitely should have been a flagrant 1. That call, and the clear as day miss on the goaltending really stuck out most to me.
 

the moops

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I'm not seeing the Giannis foul in Tatum as being anywhere near as egregious as Brooks. Like not even close. Seemed like a common hard foul to me.
 
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PedroKsBambino

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What's frustrating is you have elements of both the elbow to face and hard play from behind on that Tatum breakaway, on top of the obvious high level of body contact. The NBA has been very clear that contact from behind and contact wtih the head are not ok. Whether or not one feels these are good points of emphasis, they are clear and there's lots of iffy calls this year in a traditional sense where one or the other of those was the basis for a foul or a flagrant. So once you establish those points of emphasis, it looks bad to call GA differently especially on another star (who may have been hurt or re-injured on the play). Absent the points of emphasis, if it were 2-3 years ago, I get leaving it at a common foul. It's just tough to defend that given what they've been calling recently even acknowledging that GA did try to make a play on the ball (though not one that ever had a chance of succeeding). I don't think it's the Brooks play, though, as this at least was a play on the ball....albeit one where the force and impact was well beyond what's ok.

In the bigger picture, what do you do?

For me there's two levels---the internal and the external. And Celts need to do both. This is all in addition to the other stuff---shoot better, wake Tatum up, execute more crisply late. This is about physicality and officiating. I agree with those who say that this is the playoffs and it will always be more physical---but that is not all of the story here (though it is a part of it).

Internally, Celts need to be more physical and more aggressive all game long. They let themselves be outmuscled in game 1 and 3/4 of game 3 and they simply can't afford to do so again. They need to be active and aggressive defensively, which to me includes recognizing that GA is going to create the contact and play off of it and that Celts need to vary how they engage with that---sometimes coming up on him to force the contact early, sometimes dropping and letting him get up some steam and seeking the charge late (which they have not done a lot of) and sometimes flopping or overreacting to teh push-offs. They probably need some Theis minutes as they will get into foul trouble again and they need his force especially in the first half to wear on GA. One of the GA moves is to bury his inside arm between the bodies on a drive and use it to push off; the only way to show that is to flop (or do what GA did to Grant yesterday, which is to grab the arm and yank it down). Sadly, given the officiating, they also probably need to be open to a very hard foul or two in the lane or on a breakaway to increase the vigilence of the officials overall on physical play, because Milwaukee cannot compete unless they are able to be much more physical than Boston. Credit to them for recognizing this, and Celts need to match that and create a different dynamic around it.

They need to also shut up about it on the court. Ime needs to continue to be the voice of it, and they need the players to focus on playing and playing even more intensely faced with this physical play. The occasional complaint will be heard more if it is truly occasional---Tatum and Smart get tuned out because they do it too much. Grant wasn't wrong a single time in his complaints, but he's too young to be heard on those and will do better if he's not as vocal, imo.

As Ime said, the Celtics also need to flop more visibly multiple times against GA. It won't always work but the goal is to get 2-3 offensive fouls that way and create some doubt for GA, and the officials have been clear by deed and apparently also by word that is what it will take. Similarly, Celts need to do more of what Smart did (and didn't get the call on) which is to slide into GA's path and seek to draw secondary charges on his drives. Again, you won't get all of them and you'll pick up some fouls but they need to raise the cost---phyiscally and in terms of fouls---GA must pay and they need to do that for four quarters. Milwaukee is a short roster with Middleton out and they wore down in game 3. If Celts are more aggressive they can accelerate when that happens in subsequent games.

Externally, I thought Ime's press conference was on-point (and what I and others said Stevens did not do enough of). Celts need to be very explicit about the inequity of GA's drives, and that needs to be a media narrative that gets into people's heads. Ime and Stevens should be giving interviews where they highligh specific plays and ask "what's a defender supposed to do?" to highlight this is not just about fouls, it is also about GA creating space for shots/drives. Ime was active talking to refs all game---he doesn't gesticulate wildly like Nick Nurse but you could see him talking to refs and getting their attention after calls, which is appropriate for this series. I also I agree with Hollinger (who alluded to sending videos to league)---Celts need to make the case behind the scenes as well. They should be at least at the Stevens level, and possibly at the ownership level, demending a call with NBA officiating czar today to review half a dozen of those Giannis drives, the GA yank of Grant's arm, the Tatum breakaway, and the three at the end. And they should be asking what feedback is being provided to officials and what public statements are being made to set an appropriate context for a fair game 4. What I'd ask for is a fine or retroactive flagrant for GA for the Tatum breakaway, the Grant yank, or both to send the message that the rules apply to him too. They won't get it---but they should be putting the marker down and noting to league that if the league won't call this fairly to protect the Celtics players it creates a very difficult choice for the team in terms of how they have to play on the court and what they feel a need to say off the court. It's a big card to play, and this is a series where you play it.

GA is a great player. And, what he's doing on these drives---pushing off regularly and physically driving guys off him---is very clearly outside of the rules. The last guy who played with the physical force he does in my mind is Shaq---who was much closer to the rules than GA himself is in practice because Shaq operated down low, without the momentum GA generates prior to contact.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Something from yesterday's game stands out to me all of a sudden. I am not sure how it bodes going forward but I think it was pivotal yesterday. I don't think I mentioned it in my writeup.

The first quarter of the game was one of those ugly quarters of basketball. Physical game, both sides missing tons of shots. I think the 2 teams together were 3 for 18 from three in the first quarter.

With 39 seconds to go in the first quarter, Milwaukee up by 3 (22-19), Giannis drives into Grant and is called for an offensive foul. This is the first foul called on Giannis.

Seemingly incredibly to me at the time, Coach Bud challenged this foul call. A coach gets one challenge per game, and if he loses the challenge, he also loses a time out. And challenges of charging calls are unlikely to be reversed unless the chanrge is blatantly obvious. (Ime burned his challenge with 6 minutes to go in the 4th after Grant was called on a very borderline charge - defensive player clearly moving as Grant hit him - for his 5th foul and the call stood; if this call was reversed the Celtics probably win).

Anyway, Coach Bud lost his first quarter challenge, which was not in the least bit surprising. But winning wasn't the point of the challenge - the point was to intinmidate the officals, and it worked exactly as Bud intended it to. Giannis committed at least 4 uncalled offensive fouls I can think of, got only a common foul when he hit an in-the-air Tatum from behind, was allowed to goaltend.

Combine the favorable treatment of one star with the terrible missed/blown calls (elbow to Rob's head by Portis, holding of Tatum by Allen when he ran for a loose ball in transition, the botched Smart foul call art the end) and you have a very deeply slanted basketball court.

Anyway, Bud's move was disgusting and unsportsmanlike. I hope Ime has a counter to it in his bag.
 

benhogan

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I know this won't be popular around here but an impartial party will point to the FT disparity in Q4.

While I agree with all the Ref/GA commentary above, I'm not impartial in the least.

I wouldn't expect the officiating to change, but do expect Tatum to come out with a vengeance. Now that the Series goes every other day, JAYs can get into a groove and beat the Bucks with skill.
 

NomarsFool

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I have no idea how the game will be called on Monday. If they start calling Giannis for the charges, Bucks fans will “rightfully” complain why the rules are all of a sudden enforced differently. If they continue the wretched officiating, Celtics fans will rightfully complain about why Giannis gets a different rulebook than everyone else.

I don’t think the Giannis foul on Tatum was a flagrant 2, but I think it was a flagrant 1. It was a play on the ball, but it was a play with a very low probability of basketball success and a very high probability of injury to Tatum. That is not what the league wants. For a moment, I thought Tatum fractured his arm. What a blow to the series that would have been!

I’m not as sure about the non-call on the elbow to Williams. If there is inadvertent contact in the context of two players trying to get the ball, is it a foul? I know in this case Williams got clobbered but it didn’t seem like a particularly dangerous play, just the sort of thing that happens when big men are jumping around each other.

Sort of related, I think I agree with the other poster who said that if the decision was to not have Grant play defense on Giannis, then they probably should have taken him out of the game. Brown was no match for Giannis.
 

catomatic

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NomarsFool

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One other thing, the clamp down thing seems like the sort of play that deserves a fine. You can break a player’s arm or dislocate a shoulder that way and is in no way a basketball play.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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wade boggs chicken dinner

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I know this won't be popular around here but an impartial party will point to the FT disparity in Q4.

While I agree with all the Ref/GA commentary above, I'm not impartial in the least.

I wouldn't expect the officiating to change, but do expect Tatum to come out with a vengeance. Now that the Series goes every other day, JAYs can get into a groove and beat the Bucks with skill.
I actually watched the game after reading the game thread and I was surprised that the Cs shot twice as many FTs as MIL from the tone of the comments. And maybe I try not to get worked up by the officials, but some of the calls that people were complaining about were just wrong. George Hill clearly had his hand on JB's back before he went up for the shot; that's why he was called. I thought Giannis challenged the dunk and it was properly a foul but not a flagrant. Etc.

Yes, the refs missed some calls but they missed calls on both sides - remember the JT push off at the end of 1Q that Coach Bud went out searching the refs?

I think the biggest issue is that JT's shot selection wasn't great. He had four made shots:

1: floater
7. JT dunk – Giannis play
17. NBA.com says this is a 8 footer that he made but doesn’t have the video
19.reverse layup over Portis after couldn’t get an open look from relocating

Here's my list of his missed shots; the bolded ones are what I would consider good shots. His last shot I'm not sure why he settled for a floater as opposed to taking fully to the rim (probably didn't want to get a charge), and there were two shots with either the shot clock or the quarter time running out.

2: contested left baseline fadeaway over Matthews with shot clock running down
3. contested right elbow fadeaway over Matthews
4. wide open straightaway 3P
5. driving floater from about 15’; end of quarter
6. contested straightaway 3
8. The goaltending call
9. wide open above the break 3P
10. wide open 18’

12. tough 10’ runner across the lane
13. contested ATB 3P
14.catch and shoot ATB 3P over Giannis
15. foul line fadeaway over Matthews (note JT using his shoulder to create space)
16.contested straightaway 3P; JT thought his arm got hit
18. fast break floater that fell off

But from his lack of assists, it seemed like he was definitely looking for his shots and not looking to make plays for his teammates as much as he did in G2. Maybe he just doesn't like playing in the afternoons.