Celtics vs 76ers, Round 2 Discussion

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,419
...
Moving on I'm extremely curious about what the 76ers do with James Harden? Deep down I want him to get MAXed there and screw the Sixers cap for the rest of Embiid's prime (just the kind of guy I am ;))
There's been a lot of reporting that Harden back to Houston is a done deal. We'll see how reliable it was, but I could see him wanting out of the Philly situation.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,964
Santa Monica
There's been a lot of reporting that Harden back to Houston is a done deal. We'll see how reliable it was, but I could see him wanting out of the Philly situation.
Harden took a discount so they could sign Tucker, he'll want to be compensated for being a "team guy" last summer

Morey owes his career to Harden. I expect Daryl will give James that end-of-career legacy check that usually screws teams up

Harden doesn't come across as a "IME guy" and Fertitta is a cheapskate. I have a feeling that's James agent is sending smoke signals to pressure Philly ownership.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,642
If Boston was knocked out of the playoffs after Markell Fultz put up 50 points against them, I’d probably need a week off from work. That situation has got to really sting
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,752
These possessions where Horford just gets out of the way to let Harden drive and he passes it anyways are nuts. Everyone was terrified of Rob.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSzqzNQi_A8
Thanks for posting; really interesting.

PHI scored 61 points on 53 PnRs in G5, if I recall correctly. Something like 1.15 PPP. That plummeted in Gs 6&7 - will be interested in seeing just how badly it went for PHI.

One statistical note:

According to Second Spectrum tracking, the Celtic that Embiid was defending had set 33 ball-screens for Tatum through the first six games, with a maximum of 11 in any single game (Game 3). And Boston scored a paltry 0.87 points per chance with that action.
In Game 7, Embiid’s man set 18 ball-screens for Tatum, and the Celtics scored 1.47 points per chance on those plays.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
45,750
Here
If Boston was knocked out of the playoffs after Markell Fultz put up 50 points against them, I’d probably need a week off from work. That situation has got to really sting
To be fair, Danny was maybe the only GM in basketball who wouldn’t have taken Fultz. That dude made some crazy good moves for us.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,419
The league MVP was a minus 6 in this series.
A lot of that is just from being minus a million in game 7 though.

I thought Embiid was great in the series, and (up until 4Q of game 6) far, far superior to Tatum. His rim protection was extremely impressive, and he is always a nightmare to defend.
 

Caspir

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
7,241
I saw something on Twitter from StatMuse that said that in the 4th quarter of their their last 3 games with Philly, Ben Simmons had more points (5), than James Harden (0). That is insane.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,105
To be fair, Danny was maybe the only GM in basketball who wouldn’t have taken Fultz. That dude made some crazy good moves for us.
This is true. Same may have also been said for Durant>Oden if he ever had the opportunity.

I have two Sixer fans I know who blow their gasket when it's brought up that the Sixers could have had Tatum. Their position is that the trade never happens if Boston didn't already know Philly wanted Fultz. I'm unsure if this line of thinking requires medication or is terminal so you just let it ride out.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,599
Newton
I was kind of stunned that Niang grabbing Brown from the Sixers bench ended up being merely a double technical.That's a dangerous play that doesn't remotely equate to taunting (what Brown was called for). And if Brown just plays through it Niang gets away with it. I hope there is some supplemental discipline coming for Niang - IMO he ought to be suspended for a couple of games next year.
Mark Jackson said on the broadcast that that sort of thing happens—or used to happen—a lot.

Are refs able to rescind technical fouls? I thought Foster might as well once he saw why Brown was upset but maybe he couldn’t?

Foster had such a weird game. There were a ton of bizarre calls: Brown/Harden/Niang play but also the Derrick White/Harden “foul,” the call on Smart for being stomped on by Embiid while laying on the floor, maybe the late Maxey/White landing space call. And yet, I wouldn’t say it was a Sixers-friendly whistle. Harden for the most part couldn’t buy a whistle. Nor Embiid, really. Odd.

Also, we are crediting Jules’ presence for that 28-3 run, right?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,105
Mark Jackson said on the broadcast that that sort of thing happens—or used to happen—a lot.

Are refs able to rescind technical fouls? I thought Foster might as well once he saw why Brown was upset but maybe he couldn’t?

Foster had such a weird game. There were a ton of bizarre calls: Brown/Harden/Niang play but also the Derrick White/Harden “foul,” the call on Smart for being stomped on by Embiid while laying on the floor, maybe the late Maxey/White landing space call. And yet, I wouldn’t say it was a Sixers-friendly whistle. Harden for the most part couldn’t buy a whistle. Nor Embiid, really. Odd.
I commented on this prior to the game but one thing Foster is really really good at, probably best in the league, is not allowing a players theatrics influence his call. He's elite at seeing through the bullshit whereas other officials can't at the speed of the game. I'd compare it to a player who has the ability to slow the game down and make better reads than one who can't slow it down.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,419
I commented on this prior to the game but one thing Foster is really really good at, probably best in the league, is not allowing a players theatrics influence his call. He's elite at seeing through the bullshit whereas other officials can't at the speed of the game. I'd compare it to a player who has the ability to slow the game down and make better reads than one who can't slow it down.
With the exception of not rescinding Brown's technical, and the bizarre foul on Smart for being thrown underneath and Embiid and then having Embiid fall on him, I thought Foster's crew did exceptionally well.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,599
Newton
I commented on this prior to the game but one thing Foster is really really good at, probably best in the league, is not allowing a players theatrics influence his call. He's elite at seeing through the bullshit whereas other officials can't at the speed of the game. I'd compare it to a player who has the ability to slow the game down and make better reads than one who can't slow it down.
To that point, I wondered whether Foster was calling bullshit on Smart getting trucked by Embiid on the play where he ended up on the floor and having Embiid trip on him. As in, “You exaggerated that contact and not only am I not going to reward you for it by giving him a charge, I’m going to penalize you for being in his landing space.” The whistle was late and I believe the cameras showed Smart kind of nodding in agreement while talking to the official during the foul shots.

Serious question: do we think Foster literally bets on games? I still can’t get my head around the phone call stuff that came out during the Donaghy scandal.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,105
To that point, I wondered whether Foster was calling bullshit on Smart getting trucked by Embiid on the play where he ended up on the floor and having Embiid trip on him. As in, “You exaggerated that contact and not only am I not going to reward you for it by giving him a charge, I’m going to penalize you for being in his landing space.” The whistle was late and I believe the cameras showed Smart kind of nodding in agreement while talking to the official during the foul shots.
In my post I specifically mentioned Harden, Embiid and Smart so yes I 100% believe this to be true.

Serious question: do we think Foster literally bets on games? I still can’t get my head around the phone call stuff that came out during the Donaghy scandal.
My guess would be back in the day he probably did a little or at the very least shared opinions on certain aspects of a game with Donaghy....and it stopped immediately once shit hit the fan as if he dodged a bullet. I also feel this way about other officials in general too.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,752
Foster had such a weird game. There were a ton of bizarre calls: Brown/Harden/Niang play but also the Derrick White/Harden “foul,” the call on Smart for being stomped on by Embiid while laying on the floor, maybe the late Maxey/White landing space call. And yet, I wouldn’t say it was a Sixers-friendly whistle. Harden for the most part couldn’t buy a whistle. Nor Embiid, really. Odd.
Don't forget the first over and back call that I guess got overturned (even though Harris clearly touches the ball before it went to the backcourt) plus the missed out of bounds call off Niang's foot where Niang dove for the ball and JB just let it roll. That sequence culminated with the White non-call. I was thinking that the calls better start evening out or it's going to be a long afternoon.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,925
Pittsburgh, PA
Was also really awesome that the turning point of the game was Harden trying to flop when he lost the ball going up, and getting hit with a flagrant instead. I would complain that the only way to get that reviewed is for the player to lie on the floor awhile like Brown did, but the officials need time to see replays before stopping play, so there isn't much way around it.
The ancient Greeks would have fucking loved that sequence. Just so perfect. Live by the flop, die by the flop.

And how we got screwed by 3 or 4 calls early...
- Jaylen dribbling it off Niang's foot
- Smart playing clean defense, getting charged and then fallen on and called for a foul
- the ball Harris dribbled before going to the backcourt called a tipped ball
- White's totally clean defense on Harden, hands straight up in the air, called a foul
- the matching tech on Jaylen when he was held by the PHI bench
...etc such that even the announcers were pointing it out - and then it's Smart, of all people, just calming everyone else down and saying "it's ok, we got this, no need to get worked up". Like after each one of those, Mr. "fully prepared to throw down with Joel Embiid" was the voice of calmness and reason.

If you can keep your head, when everyone about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...
 
Last edited:

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,450
To be fair, Danny was maybe the only GM in basketball who wouldn’t have taken Fultz. That dude made some crazy good moves for us.
There are some spectacular comments in the thread here about the trade about how bad a decision it was to a) pass on Fultz as a player and/or b) to trade the first pick for third. Ultimately, it is about getting the right player....and this was a case where the historical % play of "1st pick" wasn't consistent with Ainge's assessment of the actual players and choices other teams would make. One can criticize the risk Ainge took (believing Tatum was best player and still accepting picking third) but his assessment of the players, and of the choices Philly and LA would make, has aged quite well.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,642
To be fair, Danny was maybe the only GM in basketball who wouldn’t have taken Fultz. That dude made some crazy good moves for us.
There definitely seemed to be an extremely strong consensus that Fultz was the #1 pick. Whether Ainge truly would have taken Tatum #1 or more saw the Tatum + pick option as a much better deal, we'll never know. It certainly goes down as one of the biggest fleeces in history, though.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
6,059
Lynn
Embiid defended Tatum for 13 possessions.

Tatum scored 24 on 8-10 shooting, 4-4 from deep.

The team scored 33 points on those 13 possessions lol.

Tatum drove to the rim 28 times, which is just insane for someone his size.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
8,115
Embiid defended Tatum for 13 possessions.

Tatum scored 24 on 8-10 shooting, 4-4 from deep.

The team scored 33 points on those 13 possessions lol.

Tatum drove to the rim 28 times, which is just insane for someone his size.
A good reason not to skills train with rivals. Everything JT did to Embiid in Game 7, he had done to Embiid scores of time in Drew Hanlen’s “unseen hours” training sessions, which are seen on YouTube.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,886
Somewhere
A lot of that is just from being minus a million in game 7 though.

I thought Embiid was great in the series, and (up until 4Q of game 6) far, far superior to Tatum. His rim protection was extremely impressive, and he is always a nightmare to defend.
Dude was terrible in game two, but he killed us in 3-6 for sure.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,450
Don't forget the first over and back call that I guess got overturned (even though Harris clearly touches the ball before it went to the backcourt) plus the missed out of bounds call off Niang's foot where Niang dove for the ball and JB just let it roll. That sequence culminated with the White non-call. I was thinking that the calls better start evening out or it's going to be a long afternoon.
That was about the most egregious series of obviously blown calls I can remember seeing happen all one way and that quickly in an NBA playoff game. I've seen more impactful missed calls (the Lebron non-call this year being an example, in regular season game); I've seen more marginal calls that all went one way changing an outcome (game 7 in 2010 being the paradigmatic example). I've seen multiple blown calls split among teams (pretty regularly!) But there were three totally wrong calls in like 60 seconds of game time all one way, and all where even the broadcast crew couldn't come up with any explanation or defense. It's just coincidence they all happened that quickly and all one way---plenty of things went both ways overall--but I don't think I've ever seen that quite in the way it happened.

The Smart 'foul' on Embiid I do think was about a signal to Marcus, and I am sympathetic to refs on why they'd do so....there's a 'boy who cried wolf' thing with Marcus and it's reasonable. The application wasn't all that great, and for me it shows that when they try to send signals rather than just call the play straight it usually ends poorly. It was substantively a wrong call (Embiid pretty clearly DID charge) made for good reason (smart did overact and they are tired of that). But because they thought (wrongly, though understandably) Smart was acting the whole time, they then put an exclamation point on it with the foul on Smart for being under Embiid in the restricted area. Which looks pretty terrible on replay since it should have been a charge on Embiid, ending the play before the contact in the restricted area, and instead became a three point oppp the other way.

I do believe refs can always choose to rescind a technical, especially if they go to replay. I believe they chose not to as they thought double Ts would reduce tension most effectively; I get that, and it is not crazy. As I said in game thread, I do not think that was right given what Niang did is SO far from what is ok behavior at this point in the NBA but in a game 7, you have to make choices and they did manage to reduce tensions.

Let's say that played out differently---Niang grabs Jaylen, causes him to fall, and he has to leave the game. What do you do then? It surely has to be a lot more than 'double technical fouls' that is for sure.
 
Last edited:

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,354
The Smart 'foul' on Embiid I do think was about a signal to Marcus, and I am sympathetic to refs on why they'd do so....there's a 'boy who cried wolf' thing with Marcus and it's reasonable.
This would feel a lot more reasonable, if the two guys on the other side weren't exhibit A and exhibit A of how to flop in today's game.

If it were Tobias Harris instead of Embiid, I would have been less upset, even though it still would have been a bad call. Instead, we're sending a message to Marcus that he shouldn't embellish so much when he's guarding a guy that looks like he got shot with a high powered rifle 16 times a game, and falls down when someone breathes near him.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,788
This is true. Same may have also been said for Durant>Oden if he ever had the opportunity.

I have two Sixer fans I know who blow their gasket when it's brought up that the Sixers could have had Tatum. Their position is that the trade never happens if Boston didn't already know Philly wanted Fultz. I'm unsure if this line of thinking requires medication or is terminal so you just let it ride out.
The funny thing is, the Sixers were always getting Fultz. And it's not like the trade cost them anything.

There definitely seemed to be an extremely strong consensus that Fultz was the #1 pick. Whether Ainge truly would have taken Tatum #1 or more saw the Tatum + pick option as a much better deal, we'll never know. It certainly goes down as one of the biggest fleeces in history, though.
Boston was always drafting Tatum, and they got Romeo Langford, a bust, for the privilege. So it wasn't actually a fleecing.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,450
This would feel a lot more reasonable, if the two guys on the other side weren't exhibit A and exhibit A of how to flop in today's game.

If it were Tobias Harris instead of Embiid, I would have been less upset, even though it still would have been a bad call. Instead, we're sending a message to Marcus that he shouldn't embellish so much when he's guarding a guy that looks like he got shot with a high powered rifle 16 times a game, and falls down when someone breathes near him.
I agree---and it would have been equally valid for them to call Embiid just to make the point he can't a) drop shoulder and crash into people and b) can't then step on people he knocked over.

I think the fundemental 'miss' was they read it was a Marcus dive when in fact it was an Embiid charge. The rest stemmed from that miss.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
494
The funny thing is, the Sixers were always getting Fultz. And it's not like the trade cost them anything.



Boston was always drafting Tatum, and they got Romeo Langford, a bust, for the privilege. So it wasn't actually a fleecing.
IIRC, they got the Kings pick for that and at the time I was thrilled because the Kings were always awful. Then of course the one year that the Cs got their pick, the Kings actually had a relatively good year and played their way to the back-end of the lottery. Maybe if history had held the Cs could have picked higher and could have gotten Garland/Washington/Herro and that would have been nice. But, they also ended up using Langford to get D White and I love D White, so... things worked out I guess.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
28,195
Saskatoon Canada
This is pretty scathing and accurate.
https://www.phillyvoice.com/instant-observations-sixers-celtics-game-7-joel-embiid-james-harden-doc-rivers/
That's part of what Harden doesn't get in these moments, why he has so often come up small in these moments — you simply cannot win a title by just exploiting rules and hoping that you get the right whistles for four straight rounds. He takes himself out of games and out of the playoffs by hoping he can run to an adult every time there's even a marginal rule break. Most of the time, you are going to have to deal with the problem yourself. He has cried wolf so many times that nobody wants to listen, and worse yet, he ruins his own flow and his team's flow on the floor by trying to win the rule-understanding competition before anything else.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,853
Hingham, MA
IIRC, they got the Kings pick for that and at the time I was thrilled because the Kings were always awful. Then of course the one year that the Cs got their pick, the Kings actually had a relatively good year and played their way to the back-end of the lottery. Maybe if history had held the Cs could have picked higher and could have gotten Garland/Washington/Herro and that would have been nice. But, they also ended up using Langford to get D White and I love D White, so... things worked out I guess.
Right, when the trade was made there was a conceivable chance of that turning into a top 5 type pick
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,788
IIRC, they got the Kings pick for that and at the time I was thrilled because the Kings were always awful. Then of course the one year that the Cs got their pick, the Kings actually had a relatively good year and played their way to the back-end of the lottery. Maybe if history had held the Cs could have picked higher and could have gotten Garland/Washington/Herro and that would have been nice. But, they also ended up using Langford to get D White and I love D White, so... things worked out I guess.
Langford was just salary filler. Danny got greedy, he took the Laker pick with inverse lottery protection (i.e. it only conveyed if it were top 5). He should have just taken it outright since the '18 draft was deeper than the '19 one. Because if the Celtics had Mikal Bridges or SGA we'd be the defending champions.
 

Senator Donut

post-Domer
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2010
5,648
The funny thing is, the Sixers were always getting Fultz. And it's not like the trade cost them anything.



Boston was always drafting Tatum, and they got Romeo Langford, a bust, for the privilege. So it wasn't actually a fleecing.
If the Kings had won the coin-flip with the Heat and the Celtics selected Herro, would that have changed your trade analysis? It shouldn’t. They traded away an unprotected Kings pick, which is a legitimate trade asset, even if it only yielded Langford.
 
Last edited:

saintnick912

GINO!
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 30, 2004
5,012
Somerville, MA
You can almost feel the Embiid trade demand drama coming…
Maybe the Wolves will run the "three towers". If they had anything left to trade.

I feel like the two biggest rules changes have specifically hit that side of Harden. First being the three-point stupid rip-through. And the second being the "evil eurostep" jumping sideways into a defender to draw contact rather than using it to get into space to actually make a layup. Made those Rockets games unwatchable.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,788
If the Kings had won the coin-flip with the Heat and the Celtics selected Herro, would that have changed your trade analysis? It shouldn’t. They traded away an unprotected Kings pick, which is a legitimate trade asset, even if it only yielded Langford.
Sure, if Boston had gotten anything of value, it would have improved the trade. Now if they'd gotten someone as good as Haliburton, it would have been a fleecing. As it was they got a mid first that didn't work out (which was the most likely result) for drafting the guy they were always going to.

Langford was a key piece in getting Derek White, so it wasn’t quite nothing.
He was literally salary filler that they could have gotten anywhere. So, yes, nothing.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,521

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,105
Langford was a key piece in getting Derek White, so it wasn’t quite nothing.
Was he really a key piece or key salary filler? If you recall the Spurs basically shut him down upon arrival. It wasn't like he was the guy they were running out there 30 mpg.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,450
This is a great and accurate description of Harden:

he ruins his own flow and his team's flow on the floor by trying to win the rule-understanding competition before anything else
I agree with the Morey criticism as well---for all the ways he has been innovative and ahead of the curve, he has never quite figured out the mental/emotional side of a team. He'd argue "only we gave the best Warriors teams a fight" and he's not wrong, but for all the good moves he also has never put together a team that 'worked' when it mattered most and he keeps having teams that seem overmatched in the moment. That is in part about usually relying on Harden, but in part a larger gap. Getting tougher vets (Tucker, House, Melton) in Philly is the right direction, but it's built on two questionable pillars in philly yet again
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,925
Pittsburgh, PA
Nice find. If we were to lose a series, I would hope for having sportswriting available to us in Boston that was this nuanced, this perceptive, while also not being divorced entirely of emotion. Our choices are either hot take merchants, national-level analytics types who don't focus on narrative or mentality, or the smart amateurs in places like SoSH. Reading this Kyle Neubeck fellow makes me feel like I'm reading Jackie Macmullan from 20 years ago, or Chad Finn if he did basketball.

The comments section is pretty hysterical, in a "making fun of NYYFans.com" sort of way.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
45,750
Here
Was he really a key piece or key salary filler? If you recall the Spurs basically shut him down upon arrival. It wasn't like he was the guy they were running out there 30 mpg.
He was hurt (again), wasn’t he? Did the Spurs really just want out of White’s contract? That seems kinda crazy, but maybe that was their thought.

Also, no guarantee at all Sixers would have taken Langford. Could have been used in a trade or picked someone else etc. A mid first rounder definitely has value. I don’t think you can look at the Celtics picking Langford and say the pick was worthless.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,925
Pittsburgh, PA
And the second being the "evil eurostep" jumping sideways into a defender to draw contact rather than using it to get into space to actually make a layup. Made those Rockets games unwatchable.
Was this actually a rule change? I feel like I still see sideways jumping into contact being rewarded with a foul call. Drives me nuts. Drives Derrick White even nuts-er.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
11,191
This is a great and accurate description of Harden:



I agree with the Morey criticism as well---for all the ways he has been innovative and ahead of the curve, he has never quite figured out the mental/emotional side of a team. He'd argue "only we gave the best Warriors teams a fight" and he's not wrong, but for all the good moves he also has never put together a team that 'worked' when it mattered most and he keeps having teams that seem overmatched in the moment. That is in part about usually relying on Harden, but in part a larger gap. Getting tougher vets (Tucker, House, Melton) in Philly is the right direction, but it's built on two questionable pillars in philly yet again
He also seems to be completely unwilling to accept responsibility or to face the idea that maybe his teams just weren’t as good as the teams that beat them.

The constant leaking of information about how the refs screwed his teams over and the overall level of whining is incredibly annoying. The tweet yesterday that he wrote for Woj is one of the lamest things I can remember
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,450
I do believe that working the refs/league is a useful activity for teams - and the degree to which Spo, Phil Jackson, Pop, etc. do so suggests really serious, succesful NBA folks feel the same way. But that isn't what is going on when you leak a couple hours before gametime---it's too late to matter then substantively. The refs may or may not even see it, and the league isn't giving new/different guidance at that point, or identifying new points of emphasis. At that point, it is excuse-making and I agree, it really felt like a pre-concession that they might not be good enough on the court. That's not helpful and speaks to a mentality that is not ideal.

One thing about Belichick is for all the complaining in-game about calls you never saw this kind of thing from him - he is always focused on the players and executing. Doc and Morey probably would do well to do the same.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
11,191
I do believe that working the refs/league is a useful activity for teams - and the degree to which Spo, Phil Jackson, Pop, etc. do so suggests really serious, succesful NBA folks feel the same way. But that isn't what is going on when you leak a couple hours before gametime---it's too late to matter then substantively. The refs may or may not even see it, and the league isn't giving new/different guidance at that point, or identifying new points of emphasis. At that point, it is excuse-making and I agree, it really felt like a pre-concession that they might not be good enough on the court. That's not helpful and speaks to a mentality that is not ideal.

One thing about Belichick is for all the complaining in-game about calls you never saw this kind of thing from him - he is always focused on the players and executing. Doc and Morey probably would do well to do the same.
100% agree.
I don’t love it but during the game and in the immediate press conference after, it seems to work. I think the refs respect it much more as long as it’s based in emotion and you have some merit to what you’re saying.

I think when you wait a day and then leak to the media a study with expected points attached to it or have Woj tweet out “something to keep an eye on”, I think it’s lost almost all of its effectiveness.