Celtics 20-21 Roster Construction

DJnVa

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I'm in the minority here, but I'd move picks with Hayward for Turner + minimum filler required. He's a stretch 4/5 and would fit in here nicely.
Well, the ESPN Trade Machine doesn't let you put Hayward in a deal now because of his option, but he's going to be at $34M. Turner makes $18M. That's a lot of filler. Maybe McDermott ($7.5M) and McConnell ($3.5M) would get you in ballpark. Or Jeremy Lamb and his $10.5M.

Would Hayward opt in without some guarantee from Ainge that he won't be dealt?
 

Jimbodandy

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Well, the ESPN Trade Machine doesn't let you put Hayward in a deal now because of his option, but he's going to be at $34M. Turner makes $18M. That's a lot of filler. Maybe McDermott ($7.5M) and McConnell ($3.5M) would get you in ballpark. Or Jeremy Lamb and his $10.5M.

Would Hayward opt in without some guarantee from Ainge that he won't be dealt?
Not sure that Hayward would be on board or that we wouldn't be better off with a third team for the bits and bobs (maybe someone wants Jeremy Lamb, etc.).

But if there were a permutation that works, I'd be in on Turner. His stock has fallen here and elsewhere, but he fits.

Trade machine works for Lamb/Turner for Kemba, so it should work for Hayward.
 

lovegtm

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I can’t get myself there with Turner. Smart is going to be a free agent after next year, and I’d rather have him at Turner money with 3 bites at the pick apple and Theis+rando vets+TL’s upside.

The luxury tax is going to be a huge factor in decisions from here on out.
 

lovegtm

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To expand: to build around Tatum and Brown, it’s inordinately helpful to hit on a decent starter or two in the draft. I think they will end up with one out of the Grant/Romeo/TL trio; I just don’t know which one.

Hitting one more would be a really big deal.
 

InstaFace

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What can #s 14 + 26 + 30, plus future projected picks in the 20s, get you these days? I realize we have TL at #27, but going back to my draft-value spreadsheet...

- 165 instances of evaluate-able picks from #20 through #30 inclusive, in years 1989-2017.
- Total (actual + projected) WS averages 15.8, with the top 75 (45%) being deemed "wins", coming in above that threshold.
- Top value in that range includes Kyle Lowry (90.5), David Lee (76.0), Jimmy Butler (71.9) and Serge Ibaka (65.8), as well as names like Rajon Rondo (59.4) and Rudy Gobert (59.3). But the question isn't whether you can find starter or even all-star level production in that range, but what are the odds.

So what would we consider "decent starter" value? Clint Capela (40.1) / Tony Allen (38.7) land? Kendrick Perkins (27.9) / Nate Robinson (27.8) land? Evan Fournier (22.8) / Kyle Kuzma (18.5) land? Of the 165:
- 18 (11%) exceed 40 WS (Capela)
- 28 (17%) exceed 30 WS (call it the Perk line)
- 50 (30%) exceed 20 WS (Fournier / Kuzma)

Below that, you start getting into guys of questionable starter value, e.g. right around 15 WS you have the likes of Bogdan Bogdanovic, Josh Hart and Bobby Portis. Maybe you'd think of Miles Plumlee (10.9) as a starter, but it starts becoming real debatable. And that assessment, of course, doesn't account for how long it takes them to accumulate this value, whether they'd end up being of use during a putative Tatum/Brown prime era.

So rather than looking for another big win like a Rondo or Jimmy Buckets, I start asking, what are we going to need most of? Let's assume we extend Smart again, somehow, because he loves this franchise and Wyc ponies up the tax for a fan favorite. I guess it'd have to start with replacing a PG like Kemba.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Returning for sure: Hayward, Walker, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Theis, Grant, Langford

  • Walker, Brown, Tatum obviously not going anywhere.
  • Hayward will either play his option year or agree to an extension. He's not opting out to just leave.
  • Smart and Theis will be back because there's no way to move them and make the team better.
  • Grant and Langford are rookies who have shown enough to be a part of the future, but not enough to be a key asset in a deal.
Probably coming back:
  • Kanter, who is relatively cheap and has some definite value.
  • Time Lord, who has immense athleticism for a big and finally showed some signs of getting it in the bubble.
Guys who could return or could be moved to create space:
  • Ojeleye. I've always seen him as more of a deep bench guy than a rotation guy. He's a perfectly good deep bench guy who brings an NBA caliber skill (defense) and can occasionally but not consistenly hit 3s. There's no reason to actively look to get rid of him, but he could get caught up in a numbers game.
  • Wanamaker. He can be a legit bench contributor but he'll be overexposed in a starting or top 7/8 role. Oldest guy on the team so no real upside. No reason to look to get rid of him, but, like Ojeleye, a potential numbers game victim.
  • Javonte Green. Athletic freak, probably a deep bench guy. Likely to move on if there are new giys competing for jobs.
  • Carsen Edwards. Didn't show a whole lot during the opportunities he got. Needs to have the shot falling consistently to be of value. Some upside potential as offense off the bench if he can improve the shot. But you don't go out of your way to bring him back. A change of scenery to a bad team lacking in deoth would probably be good for him.
Guy who won't be back:
  • Poirier. Showed nothing. #5 on the Celtics center depth chart. On a 2 year deal and cheap money.
Two way guys:
  • Tremont Waters. Looks like someone with a future as a bench guy in the NBA, but not sure he wins the stiff competition for roster spots. I'd like to see him return on a one way deal, but his future depends on what other moves are made.
  • Tacko Fall. Similar.
4 draft picks including 3 1sts in a weak draft year. I'd expect Danny to try to deal some of these and/or draft and stash some Euro players.
 

scottyno

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If time lord was ever on the bubble as a "probably coming back" he's moved into 100% lock now. And he's still only 22.

And Kanter at 5m is worth it just because I'm assuming the sixers will still try to build around embiid. Though I have to wonder if with Robs emergence as a guy that has to be getting regular minutes next year Kanter decides to opt out and try to find a job somewhere with more consistent minutes. He seems to love the team, but would he be happy being a 29 year old 3rd center playing sporadic minutes for a full season?
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, TL has had about as good a progression as you could reasonably hope for from a #27 young big, especially if the injuries are behind him. He's looking more and more like a big part of future plans, although the rest of the league is noticing him too, so he could end up as an asset in a deal.

In that sense he's pretty different from Grant or Langford, who probably have more appeal to the Celtics than to other teams, and wouldn't be valued as significant assets.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Yes. It could be that we'll get only one of Time Lord and Kanter back, and if Time Lord is the one to leave, he'll go as part of a deal.
 

scottyno

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Yes. It could be that we'll get only one of Time Lord and Kanter back, and if Time Lord is the one to leave, he'll go as part of a deal.
What sort of deal could make any sense for them to move Time Lord? He's got 2 very cheap years left he's only 22 and he plays the Cs biggest position of "need".

And if Kanter opts out then sure if they can get Baynes for similar money.
 

Eddie Jurak

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What sort of deal could make any sense for them to move Time Lord? He's got 2 very cheap years left he's only 22 and he plays the Cs biggest position of "need".

And if Kanter opts out then sure if they can get Baynes for similar money.
It would have to be something big, obviously. But I agree it is not likely.
 

lovegtm

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What sort of deal could make any sense for them to move Time Lord? He's got 2 very cheap years left he's only 22 and he plays the Cs biggest position of "need".

And if Kanter opts out then sure if they can get Baynes for similar money.
As EJ said, it's not likely, but it's not uncommon in the NBA for a team to get interested in a younger guy and have him as a cheap asset as part of a bigger deal. Recent examples are Poeltl to the Spurs in the Kawhi deal, Lonzo as a secondary piece in the AD trade, Kris Dunn to Chicago with picks for Butler, Shamet to the Clippers for Tobias Harris, etc.

Valuations of the young guy vary in the trades (Ball and Dunn were bigger parts of their deals), but the principle holds, and it's a sliding scale.
 

Eddie Jurak

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What would you be looking to get back in a TL trade? He's so much of what they really need that it's tough for me to see what they'd be looking for.
Nothing in particular - would have to be part of a major team alterning deal with a star player coming back and more than just Time Lord going out. I don’t see that as likely.
 

BigSoxFan

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What would you be looking to get back in a TL trade? He's so much of what they really need that it's tough for me to see what they'd be looking for.
Yeah. Makes no sense to me. He’s making real progress, represents something we otherwise don’t have, and is cheap for 2 more years. Only scenario I can see is if he’s needed to move Hayward somewhere else. And even then I’m really not sure what you’d be looking to get back.

I think the Celtics are in great position given that their best 2 players are super young, their 3rd best guy is still in his prime, and the 4th best guy only has 1 more year left.

Our young guys like TL, Langford, Grant Williams, etc. have the perfect combination of opportunity and reduced need for production since we have so many established guys in place.
 

bakahump

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Wouldnt any TL trade basically be a TL and Hayward "Trade"?

Could we afford the type of player that would come back in a TL trade if Gordon didnt go somewhere else? Could we afford New Guy, JT,JB and Kemba even if Gordon did go somewhere else?

I think we thank the BB gods that TL is progressing. We need him to be a 10/10/2-3 block guy for cheap money. Upgrading to 15-20pt 10-12 reb guy seems impossible financially.
 

BigSoxFan

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Wouldnt any TL trade basically be a TL and Hayward "Trade"?

Could we afford the type of player that would come back in a TL trade if Gordon didnt go somewhere else? Could we afford New Guy, JT,JB and Kemba even if Gordon did go somewhere else?

I think we thank the BB gods that TL is progressing. We need him to be a 10/10/2-3 block guy for cheap money. Upgrading to 15-20pt 10-12 reb guy seems impossible financially.
I think it all depends on what Wyc and Co are willing to spend. The Celtics have $87.1M committed in 2021-22 not including Tatum’s max deal. So, I don’t think they’d be looking to turn Hayward’s contract into a longer term asset with a similar cap hold. They simply can’t afford it without going into major luxury tax hell.

This is why I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Celtics keep all 3 picks this year. We need a steady flow of cheap talent. I expect Hayward to opt in this year and be gone next summer.
 

NomarsFool

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The Celtics are going to be over the cap for years to come. So, "afford" is only a question of Wyc's willingness to pay the luxury tax, not about fitting anyone under the cap. The Celtics have the options of:

1) Re-signing Hayward by using his Bird-rights to extend him even while being over the cap
2) Trading Hayward for a player of similar salary
3) Letting Hayward walk away and not replacing him with a player of similar salary basically just improving Wyc's bottom line

The last part is important, because people often think that by letting Hayward walk the Celtics can go out and sign Giannis or whatever. That cannot happen. Losing that salary slot (by not exercising option 1 or 2) means the Celtics lose that salary slot.
 

lexrageorge

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The Celtics are going to be over the cap for years to come. So, "afford" is only a question of Wyc's willingness to pay the luxury tax, not about fitting anyone under the cap. The Celtics have the options of:

1) Re-signing Hayward by using his Bird-rights to extend him even while being over the cap
2) Trading Hayward for a player of similar salary
3) Letting Hayward walk away and not replacing him with a player of similar salary basically just improving Wyc's bottom line

The last part is important, because people often think that by letting Hayward walk the Celtics can go out and sign Giannis or whatever. That cannot happen. Losing that salary slot (by not exercising option 1 or 2) means the Celtics lose that salary slot.
The complication is that for 2020-21, Hayward can just opt-in at his existing salary. However, he is not going to opt-in so he can be traded to Sacramento for cap relief. So, ultimately the options come down to:

1.) Hayward opts in with the intention of playing out his contract with the Celtics, with both sides kicking the can down the road for another year.
2.) Hayward opts out and resigns a multi-year extension with the Celtics.
3.) Hayward opts out with the intention of a sign-and-trade with a contender in the Western Conference.
4.) Hayward opts out and walks away.

I would say it's a near certainty that he picks door #1, and there is 0% chance of Hayward being traded if he picks that door.
 

bakahump

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Thanks @lexrageorge and @NomarsFool

If option 1 happens.

What does 21-22 look like?

Hayward comes off.....what can they do, if anything, to maintain that slot and or flexability? or is this team essentially Jaylen, Jason and old Kemba until his contract ends?
 

NomarsFool

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The slot is either Hayward or a player coming back in a trade of similar salary. If he opts in, and then eventually leaves (walking away without a trade) the slot is gone.
 

lexrageorge

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Thanks @lexrageorge and @NomarsFool

If option 1 happens.

What does 21-22 look like?

Hayward comes off.....what can they do, if anything, to maintain that slot and or flexability? or is this team essentially Jaylen, Jason and old Kemba until his contract ends?
It's hard to answer, as we do not know the details of Celtics' ability to pay luxury tax for an extended period. We all thought the Red Sox could pay taxes forever, until the owners decided they couldn't, and that was pre-CoVid19. And Smart will need a new deal starting in 2022. So the below assumes they are willing to pay the taxes resulting from using a portion of that salary slot.

It's not out of the question that they would be able to resign Hayward on a less than max contract for 3 years starting 2021-22. A sign-and-trade would be another way, but the new CBA has made sign-and-trades more difficult.

As for "old" Kemba, he will still be in his early 30's when his current deal ends, and he's shown he's able to work quite well as a complementary player. Kyrie's aging cliff is going to be significantly more steep, IMO.
 

nighthob

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The Celtics are going to be over the cap for years to come. So, "afford" is only a question of Wyc's willingness to pay the luxury tax, not about fitting anyone under the cap. The Celtics have the options of:

1) Re-signing Hayward by using his Bird-rights to extend him even while being over the cap
2) Trading Hayward for a player of similar salary
3) Letting Hayward walk away and not replacing him with a player of similar salary basically just improving Wyc's bottom line

The last part is important, because people often think that by letting Hayward walk the Celtics can go out and sign Giannis or whatever. That cannot happen. Losing that salary slot (by not exercising option 1 or 2) means the Celtics lose that salary slot.
Boston's future is the Jay Crew. They aren't going to run out, indefinitely, three 30% max deal players with a fourth guy making near max money. That's how you end up spending four times total broadcast revenues on payroll expenses (as the Thunder were at the end of the Westbrook/George run) given the luxury tax repeater penalty. Hayward's either getting traded or he's walking.

The complication is that for 2020-21, Hayward can just opt-in at his existing salary. However, he is not going to opt-in so he can be traded to Sacramento for cap relief. So, ultimately the options come down to:

1.) Hayward opts in with the intention of playing out his contract with the Celtics, with both sides kicking the can down the road for another year.
2.) Hayward opts out and resigns a multi-year extension with the Celtics.
3.) Hayward opts out with the intention of a sign-and-trade with a contender in the Western Conference.
4.) Hayward opts out and walks away.

I would say it's a near certainty that he picks door #1, and there is 0% chance of Hayward being traded if he picks that door.
I know the popular opinion in this place is that Hayward is an overpaid player, but in truth he's just the fourth option, and when you'e in the Dre' Green spot there's not a lot of offensive opportunity to go around. The far more likely scenario is that after he opts in another team comes calling in order to have him as a 2nd/3rd option. Teams like Utah, Golden State, Indiana, Portland, etc. are going to be looking for someone like Gordo. So the odds of a deal after picking option #1 are considerably higher than 0%.
 

BaseballJones

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The slot is either Hayward or a player coming back in a trade of similar salary. If he opts in, and then eventually leaves (walking away without a trade) the slot is gone.
And that would be a very bad outcome because even though he may not be worth that kind of contract at this point, he's still a very good player. They'd lose that slot and really not even be able to fill it. That's why it's crucial for Danny to keep trying to find that next great wing player in the draft to eventually replace Hayward, at bare minimum cost.

One guy to keep an eye on (this part should be in the draft thread) is Villanova's Saddiq Bey, who is projected to possibly be available for Boston's #14 pick. A scouting report on Bey:

Strengths
-
Versatile player with a solid physical profile at 6-foot-7, 216 pounds with a 6-foot-11 wingspan. One of the more efficient combo forwards in college basketball. Late bloomer who improved every season at Villanova.
- Competitive. Has the ability to defend multiple positions in a pinch. Makes winning plays. Good offensive rebounder. Has been both a role player and a featured starter. Likely NBA contributor from day one.
- Shot 45.1% from 3 on 6.7 attempts per game as a sophomore. Can handle in pick-and-roll, function as a screener or play out of the post. Solid feel for the game. Played some point guard for stretches.

Improvement areas
-
Not a great athlete, given his dimensions. Doesn't always finish above the rim in traffic.
- Low steal and block rates relative to his size and length. Can he be a true defensive stopper?
- How will his jumper translate to the NBA line? Unorthodox mechanics. Career 73% free throw shooter. Does a little of everything, but what's his elite NBA skill?

Projected role: 3-and-D forward

Excellent shooter, long arms, overall good player, even if he's not necessarily an elite athlete.
 

tbb345

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Boston's future is the Jay Crew. They aren't going to run out, indefinitely, three 30% max deal players with a fourth guy making near max money. That's how you end up spending four times total broadcast revenues on payroll expenses (as the Thunder were at the end of the Westbrook/George run) given the luxury tax repeater penalty. Hayward's either getting traded or he's walking.



I know the popular opinion in this place is that Hayward is an overpaid player, but in truth he's just the fourth option, and when you'e in the Dre' Green spot there's not a lot of offensive opportunity to go around. The far more likely scenario is that after he opts in another team comes calling in order to have him as a 2nd/3rd option. Teams like Utah, Golden State, Indiana, Portland, etc. are going to be looking for someone like Gordo. So the odds of a deal after picking option #1 are considerably higher than 0%.
Wouldn’t any of those teams have to trade back a player with a similar salary? If I’m reading what you’re saying correctly, the Celtics don’t want to pay that high of a salary in the future, so isn’t Hayward opting in the perfect solution to that?
 

nighthob

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All trades are complicated by the cap and anyone trading for him is probably looking at a three way deal. The Warriors line up best in this regard due to having a high pick this year and a guaranteed lottery pick in one of the double drafts to offset the necessity of including Andrew Wiggins. One deal that would work before the end of the NBA fiscal year is a three way that sends Hayward to the Warriors, Andrew Wiggins and #2 to the Knicks (because the rumor is that New York wants in the top 3, I'm guessing for LaMelo Ball), and #8, Minnesota's #1, lottery protected future Knick pick along with the expiring deals of Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson to Boston.
 

lovegtm

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Wouldn’t any of those teams have to trade back a player with a similar salary? If I’m reading what you’re saying correctly, the Celtics don’t want to pay that high of a salary in the future, so isn’t Hayward opting in the perfect solution to that?
To add on to nighthob’s great answer: the Celtics could take back a player making 80% of Hayward’s salary, so there are significant tax saving possibilities even with a simple deal.
 

NomarsFool

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Wouldn’t any of those teams have to trade back a player with a similar salary? If I’m reading what you’re saying correctly, the Celtics don’t want to pay that high of a salary in the future, so isn’t Hayward opting in the perfect solution to that?
Not sure I understand your question. If Hayward opts out, the Celtics aren't on the hook for any salary. If Hayward opts in and stays for one season and leaves, the Celtics are on the hook for his salary next season and no more.

If the Celtics trade Hayward for a player(s), the financial hit depends on the length of the contract coming back. Is it 1 year or multiple years? From a talent perspective (assuming the player is good and not salary dreck) the longer the better. From a Wyc's pocketbook perspective, the shorter the better.
 

benhogan

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Would yall make a run at Baynes on a cheap deal, or too old?
I hope they say au revoir to VP. Add a veteran, defense-first BIG that likes to set screens (on the cheap) to Theis, Kanter, TL. BIGs tend to get beaten up/injured. Having a basket full of cheap ones to put in the Brad Machine helps with roster construction.

If its Baynes, great, since he knows the system/situation and has proven to be a good teammate. I do think PHO will overpay AB. But there should be lots of cheap 5s available this off-season.

Use the draft picks on athletic wings & a future PG (Quickley?)
 

NomarsFool

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I liked Baynes when he was here, but I'm not 100% sure he fits with how the C's have evolved defensively. It seems like Celtics BIGS need to be a bit more mobile than Baynes because of all the switching.
 

Jimbodandy

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I liked Baynes when he was here, but I'm not 100% sure he fits with how the C's have evolved defensively. It seems like Celtics BIGS need to be a bit more mobile than Baynes because of all the switching.
He's mobile enough and does fine in the role. Every big is going to have matchup problems based on the opponent, him fewer than most.
 

scottyno

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I liked Baynes when he was here, but I'm not 100% sure he fits with how the C's have evolved defensively. It seems like Celtics BIGS need to be a bit more mobile than Baynes because of all the switching.
If Kanter is staying then yeah, Baynes really has no fit. But Kanter isn't a mobile switching big either, but they need someone that can get physical with the few embiid type centers that still exist in the league, so if he's gone then Baynes would make sense.
 

benhogan

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I liked Baynes when he was here, but I'm not 100% sure he fits with how the C's have evolved defensively. It seems like Celtics BIGS need to be a bit more mobile than Baynes because of all the switching.
AB fits better than VP, who'd he'd be replacing on the roster under my scenario. Centers are so cheap you can load up on them and they don't strangle your cap.

If you want mobile 5s there is Nerlens Noel. They'll have Theis, TL, Granite for mobile 5s.

Baynes is still solid defensively and can shoot the 3
 

Jed Zeppelin

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It’ll all work itself out once we get the ring this year. Then they’ll come running to ride Tatum’s coattails on minimum salaries.
 

Jimbodandy

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AB fits better than VP, who'd he'd be replacing on the roster under my scenario. Centers are so cheap you can load up on them and they don't strangle your cap.

If you want mobile 5s there is Nerlens Noel. They'll have Theis, TL, Granite for mobile 5s.

Baynes is still solid defensively and can shoot the 3
Nerlens is cheap and tall.
 

Eddie Jurak

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AB fits better than VP, who'd he'd be replacing on the roster under my scenario. Centers are so cheap you can load up on them and they don't strangle your cap.

If you want mobile 5s there is Nerlens Noel. They'll have Theis, TL, Granite for mobile 5s.

Baynes is still solid defensively and can shoot the 3
Baynes might have better (money and minutes) offers elsewhere, no?
 

lovegtm

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Baynes might have better (money and minutes) offers elsewhere, no?
Yeah, this would be purely assuming he's available in the ~$5M range.

If he is, I'd sign him, put him in 7-10 min/game shrinkwrap, and save him for Embiid.

EDIT: although, now that I think about it, they pretty much proved concept in the Philly series that they can generate offense from the perimeter without a shooting big, even/especially against aggressive drops as a result. That really opens up the market--you're just looking for a pure defense bulky big at that point.
 

NomarsFool

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AB fits better than VP, who'd he'd be replacing on the roster under my scenario. Centers are so cheap you can load up on them and they don't strangle your cap.
I think VP is gone regardless, just to make room for one of the rookies from the draft.

I guess I'm wondering if the Celtics might move to be a bit more like Houston, and play small and mobile all the time. They certainly used Kanter's bulk effectively against Embiid, but it will be interesting to see what they do against Giannis if they end up facing them in the ECF. I'm no expert, but Giannis and Embiid seem like very different style of players - so I'm not sure the approach will be the same. There are very few players like Embiid in the league - so I'm not sure you really need to have a roster spot to defend him.
 

lexrageorge

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Just doing a quick recap of the roster as it stands:

Guaranteed contracts (9):
Walker
Brown
Smart
Tatum
Theis
Langford
G. Williams
R. Williams
Edwards

Player Options (2):
Hayward
Kanter

Team Option (1):
Ojeleye

First round picks (2):
Nesmith
Pritchard

Non-guaranteed contracts (1):
Green

2nd round pick (1):
Madar

Unsigned (3):
Wanamaker
Waters
Fall

Whereabouts unknown (1):
Poirier

So 19 or 20 players to potentially fit into 17 slots. Probably too early to make any solid predictions as the player options will have a big impact. But assuming both Hayward and Kanter opt in, my (inexpert) first cut is as follows:

15-man roster:
Walker
Brown
Smart
Tatum
Theis
Langford
G. Williams
R. Williams
Hayward
Kanter
Nesmith
Pritchard
Waters
Ojeleye
Green

2-ways:
Fall
<Open>

Stash:
Madar

Gone:
Wanamaker
Edwards
Poirier

Really, it could be any 3 of Waters/Ojeleye/Green/Wanamaker/Edwards/Poirier that return.

EDIT: I did not include any potential MLE or vet min players that get signed, which would presumably push out one of the 3 slots on the ass end of the roster above. Again, it's early yet.
 
Last edited:

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
17,957
Just doing a quick recap of the roster as it stands:

Guaranteed contracts (9):
Walker
Brown
Smart
Tatum
Theis
Langford
G. Williams
R. Williams
Edwards

Player Options (2):
Hayward
Kanter

Team Option (1):
Ojeleye

First round picks (2):
Nesmith
Pritchard

Non-guaranteed contracts (1):
Green

2nd round pick (1):
Madar

Unsigned (3):
Wanamaker
Waters
Fall

Whereabouts unknown (1):
Poirier

So 19 or 20 players to potentially fit into 17 slots. Probably too early to make any solid predictions as the player options will have a big impact. But assuming both Hayward and Kanter opt in, my (inexpert) first cut is as follows:

15-man roster:
Walker
Brown
Smart
Tatum
Theis
Langford
G. Williams
R. Williams
Hayward
Kanter
Nesmith
Pritchard
Waters
Ojeleye
Green

2-ways:
Fall
<Open>

Stash:
Madar

Gone:
Wanamaker
Edwards
Poirier

Really, it could be any 3 of Waters/Ojeleye/Green/Wanamaker/Edwards/Poirier that return.
I like this list. I think Wanamaker rates higher than Ojeleye, but we're talking about twigs and seeds there, so its far from clear.
 

tbrown_01923

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2006
544
Wouldn't they rather have waters on a two way than cut edwards outright? At least at the start of the season?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,927
This is why I never understand why people kept insisting that we can't draft 3 guys. Wouldn't a guy like Bane be preferable to one of Ojeleye, Waters or Green? Would have imo.
Did we ever find out if the Celtics traded Poirier as well? I honestly cannot find any real info one way or the other. If they did, then the Bane trade makes a ton of sense, as that is $4.6M in guaranteed money going out between them. Waters or Green would only cost $1.5M for that same roster spot.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,182
around the way
This is why I never understand why people kept insisting that we can't draft 3 guys. Wouldn't a guy like Bane be preferable to one of Ojeleye, Waters or Green? Would have imo.
While I agree with you in principle, Danny clearly had no interest in anyone left. If he loved Bane or Terry, he would have grabbed them.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
36,384
This is why I never understand why people kept insisting that we can't draft 3 guys. Wouldn't a guy like Bane be preferable to one of Ojeleye, Waters or Green? Would have imo.
Yeah, I would have preferred we draft Bane, Terry, Tillman, or Bey and tried to develop them in Maine over those 3. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things but not sure why you don't just take a shot at getting an 8th-9th man with a late first. If Poirier was, indeed, attached to #30 then it makes more sense to me.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,403
He won’t be on the roster, but I’ll post a Yam Madar scouting report here:


56. Yam Madar | G | Hapoel Tel Aviv | Birthdate: Dec. 21, 2000 (Age: 19) | 6-3 | 180 LBS | Hometown: Beit Dagan, Israel BACKGROUND: Father is Zohar Madar, who at one point was the mayor of Beit Dagan, where Madar grew up. Signed with Hapoel Tel Aviv back in the summer of 2018, but really emerged on scouts’ radars in the summer of 2019. That’s when he played in the FIBA European U20 Tournament. Scouts went out to see Deni Avdija, and Madar really proved himself playing next to the potential top-five pick. He led the tournament in assists at 7.7 per game, played extremely high-level defense, and added 15 points per night on top of it. Along with Avdija, Madar was a reason Israel won the tournament, and he made the All-Tournament team. Continued his ascent over the last year in Israel. Won the league’s most improved player in 2020. Still playing for Hapoel. Had a monster start to his season with a 19-point, eightassist game in a Champions’ League qualifier even though his team lost. Considered an extreme competitor in a good way who really fights and puts everything into basketball. YEAR TEAM LEAGUE Age GP PPG RPG APG TOPG BPG SPG FG% 3P% FT% 2018-19 Hapoel Tel Aviv Israel BSL 18 32 2.8 1.0 1.0 1.0 0.0 0.7 42.7 25.0 73.1 2019-20 Hapoel Tel Aviv Israel BSL 19 32 10.1 2.4 3.4 2.5 0.2 1.0 44.4 26.7 81.2 STRENGTHS: The first thing that stands out is his competitiveness. Just an extremely high-level motor and energy giver. Also doesn’t stop pushing the pace and tempo. That’s both on offense when he’s out in transition, and on defense when he’s pressuring at the point of attack. Just a constant effort player who is always trying to make something happen.

I love him on defense in that regard. Just an annoying pest on that end. Really handsy and disruptive, but not in a way that will get called. Fantastic lateral quickness, and a real attitude. Despite Madar’s real size disadvantage against Avdija, Hapoel matched them up at times in their playoff series, and Madar made him look absolutely miserable due to his pressure in the first two games. Just consistently beats everyone to the spot they want to get to. Anticipates what they want to do before they do it. He’s skinny and needs to add some strength, but defense can be his calling card in the NBA. Even though he’s a touch undersized at 6-2without crazy length, I’d buy him as being able to come in and give teams an energy boost on that end.

Offensively, the critical skills are his creativity and passing. Just has fantastic vision and always has his eyes up. Makes the right pass regularly, as well as the spectacular one. Always hits guys right on target so they can keep going with their drives. Has great touch, but can also throw a rocket pass when necessary. He’s a really poor shooter, which I’ll note momentarily, and that cuts down on some of his passing angles out of pick-and-roll. But he still finds them. In part, that’s because he’s an awesome ballhandler with fun little flourishes he puts on defenders. Knows how to use his body. Loves to crossover and then burst by. Big fan of the spin move into a floater or spin move into a jumper combo. The phrase “plays at his own pace” was made for someone like Madar. He’s just really awkward to deal with because of how slippery he is, but also how quick he is in and out of his moves without looking sped up.

WEAKNESSES: The big one is the shooting. I don’t really buy him in that regard at all right now. His mechanics are too all-over-the-place. It has potential, but he needs to really tighten things up. Has something of a low release point. Doesn’t have a consistent follow through. His base and footwork into the jumper isn’t really all that consistent, and he gets off of his balance point too often. Landing point is all over the place. Does get a relatively clean release, but the ball doesn’t look to have awesome rotation. Think it’s going to take a few years for him to rep out the mechanics. Could get there to where he’s effective as a shooter, though.

The other main one is just that he generally gets a bit overaggressive at times and forces the action. Think this comes more from a lack of experience than anything else, though. Occasionally gets into bad spots on the court and kind of spazzes a touch and makes a mind-numbingly bad choice that is inexplicable. He’ll also get overaggressive on defense, too. I wouldn’t quite say he’s a riverboat gambler, but he will push himself out of proper position sometimes thinking that his quickness and recovery speed allows him to get back into position. Won’t be able to do that as often in the NBA.

SUMMARY: I actually think Madar should probably be drafted and stashed. I tend to like guys who play with this level of competitiveness and fire. It’s going to take some time with him, but there are very clearly the outlines of a backup point guard in the NBA here if he can improve the jumper and slow down a little bit. I think I’d want to see how his physicality and slight frame translates to the NBA before going beyond him being a potential backup point guard, but there are some really interesting tools here when mixed with a mentality that clearly wants to win. GRADE: Draft and stash, but should be drafted and stashed