One thing I find particularly striking is the frequent and unquestioned of the word "rebuilding" in this thread. On the day that Bloom was hired, absolutely no one was using that term. Not Bloom, not Henry, and probably no one on this board. No one was using in 2021 for that matter, either.
Bloom, Cora -- Do they stay or do they go?
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Not sure we know what, if anything, he turned down for Dalbec, Downs, Mata or Groome. And they didn't cost us anything to keep besides a couple Rule V picks, one of whom is back.
Isn't it just the market? There is no patience for rebuilding, so they never say the word out loud, even though that's 100% what is going on. It's the "lalala I can't hear you" approach to problem solving. As long as we all agree to pretend something doesn't exist, we will go along with its existence.
No, I actually don't for one second believe that John Henry looked at a team that (a) was one year removed from winning 108 games, (b) had just won the AL East 3 years in a row, and (c) was led by a position player core of three budding superstars in their mid-twenties (well, two in their mid-twenties and one in his early twenties) and said to himself "this isn't going to work, we need to rebuld and hopefully we'll be good again in five years -- but we gotta keep it super secret because the unwashed masses aren't as smart as chrisfont9."
I do believe that Henry said "I want to find someone who can win me championships for less money," and he believed that Bloom was the guy to do it.
I mean, this was the industry consensus about the state of the org when Bloom was hired:
But now it's four years later and it's apparently okay that they're about to finish in last place two years in a row because hey, they're in a rebuild, what are you going to do?
Yeah, by the time it became clear that these guys weren't going to be useful, they had little to no trade value. Every team has prospects that don't work out, you can't possibly always know that ahead of time and make a deal before other teams get wise.
This is it in a nutshell. Bloom was brought for two reasons. The first is that his talent for building competitive teams for far less money. This is attractive to any owner. The second was the belief that he could improve the player development and have younger (therefore cheaper) players in perpetuity. He should not get a longer leash by failing on the first mandate nor should he get bonus points by getting better draft picks by being bad. Anyone with a lick of sense can see his results have been mediocre to less than mediocre. His roster construction seems flawed each year and they are finishing last three of the four years. I think he gets rid of Cora and that he gets one more year but it isn't looking good for him long term.
It was impossible for them to keep those 3 position players while also cutting money, pretty sure John Henry realized that. For this to be true you would also have to believe that Bloom traded Betts completely on his own.
For what to be true? I'm not even talking about the Mookie trade. I'm just saying that I think John Henry told Bloom "keep winning, but do it for less money" and that the idea of a 5-year rebuild never entered his mind.
For Henry to believe that the Sox had 3 young star position players going forward he would have had to 1. Not have any desire to trade Mookie or reset the tax and 2. Be prepared to spend upwards of $100m a year to retain all 3. Both of those are impossible if the plan is to spend less money, there's no way Henry wouldn't have known that.
Not once did I state that Henry believed he would have all three going forward. I pointed out that the 2019 team had all three to demonstrate the relative strength of the 2019 Red Sox as an organization that was not contemplating "a rebuild."
The 2019 into 2020 Red Sox were not that relatively strong unless they were planning to commit the money to retain all the really good players about to be free agents.
Posted this in the Bogaerts thread but it probably goes better here.
Bloom has brought some very good position players into the system, but very few pitching prospects. He got Whitlock, which was great, and Winckowski in the Benintendi trade, but there is little pitching, especially starting pitching, in the minors now. In the Sox Prospects rankings, only four of the top 25 are pitchers, and just two, Shane Drohan (No. 13) and Yordanny Monegro (No. 25) came into the system under Bloom's regime.
The Sox really need Luis Perales and Wikelman Gonzalez to be good, but both have shown control issues in the minors, and there's a good chance neither ever sees the majors until 2025. And with the flameout rate of pitching prospects, it's really good to have a bunch of options.
Bloom has brought some very good position players into the system, but very few pitching prospects. He got Whitlock, which was great, and Winckowski in the Benintendi trade, but there is little pitching, especially starting pitching, in the minors now. In the Sox Prospects rankings, only four of the top 25 are pitchers, and just two, Shane Drohan (No. 13) and Yordanny Monegro (No. 25) came into the system under Bloom's regime.
The Sox really need Luis Perales and Wikelman Gonzalez to be good, but both have shown control issues in the minors, and there's a good chance neither ever sees the majors until 2025. And with the flameout rate of pitching prospects, it's really good to have a bunch of options.
Why is a lame duck GM a bad idea? Do you think it will prevent FAs from signing here? I don’t really understand why it’s an issue.
I can’t envision any scenario where this team isn’t a solid playoff team with a serious ALCS contention in 2024 and Bloom remains. Next year is it. Thrive or perish.
I am not a Globe subscriber, but the headline says that Pete Abe has heard some "industry speculation" about Bloom
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/09/13/sports/what-do-about-chaim-bloom-is-first-many-decisions-red-sox-need-make-season-winds-down/
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/09/13/sports/what-do-about-chaim-bloom-is-first-many-decisions-red-sox-need-make-season-winds-down/
I could imagine Cora getting axed or resigning, but I would bet against it this year, and would be extraordinarily surprised if they canned Bloom just yet. Maybe after 2024 if they're not seeing adequate talent build up in the minors, etc. Voted both stay.
Thats the first time i have heard of such “widespread speculation within the industry” prior to this report by Pete.
Have seen nothing of the sort reported in ESPN or the athletic etc. Which seems pretty odd for such “wide spread speculation”
They fired Cherington and Dombrowski in season. Bloom isn’t making it to October if Henry notices the team sucks next year.
That being said, I expect them to be very good.
I would be surprised if Bloom was gone anytime soon. I have no idea what ownership's plan is, but I have the belief generally you give your baseball guys a bunch of years to rebuild, and they're only 3ish years into it, depending how much you count 2020. After Cherington/Dombrowski, I would imagine some consistency is desired.
If the organization can retain some semblance of a competitive team where the ballpark isn't empty, then I think that's a win in the eyes of ownership. I think folks like us will continue to be frustrated in many ways, but I don't think they give much of a damn about us vs. the average fan who marginally pays attention but will consider going to a game and buying a Devers jersey. My overarching hope is the dreg of the next few years feeds a couple years of sustained legit playoff teams.
Cora looks burned out from Boston, so I wouldn't be surprised if a mutual departure is coming.
If the organization can retain some semblance of a competitive team where the ballpark isn't empty, then I think that's a win in the eyes of ownership. I think folks like us will continue to be frustrated in many ways, but I don't think they give much of a damn about us vs. the average fan who marginally pays attention but will consider going to a game and buying a Devers jersey. My overarching hope is the dreg of the next few years feeds a couple years of sustained legit playoff teams.
Cora looks burned out from Boston, so I wouldn't be surprised if a mutual departure is coming.
I’m more thinking such a GM would be too inclined to worry about 2024 and 2024 only. I guess he’d be somewhat restrained by his desire to get another job in the future but still seems like too much incentive to be reckless.
This has always been the argument. A GM on a 1 year deal is like Dombrowski on steroids.
Gotcha. Honestly, I think it’s 2024 or bust for Bloom regardless. And I don’t think someone who desires to be a GM in the future world be too reckless. All the other owners are watching. But that’s just my speculation.
*edit* Plus, wouldn’t Henry presumably have to sign off on any FA signing or trade? If Bloom was trying to do something transparently “reckless” I would think JH would nix it (and probably fire him ASAP).
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I think both will be here in 2024. Though I suspect the team needs at least make the post season next year for either of them to be here in 2025.
The farm system took huge strides this year. I feel like somehow this board hasn't fully metabolized what we have in Roman Anthony: a 19 year old OF with a .950 OPS in AA, and he's only our second best prospect. We got him at the end of the the second round, for a late first round bonus. We could have two top-10 prospects next year.
Julio Rodriguez, to pick a comp, lost his age 19 season to COVID, but would have been in AA. As a 20 year old, he had a 1.000 OPS in AA! Now, Julio is probably a more persuasive CF than Anthony, but that's not the point: the CF defense turns Rodriguez into an MVP candidate, but no Mariners fans would be mad if he were just a RF with a 135 OPS+ in his early 20s locked up longterm. That's a fantastic player at any outfield spot.
I don't pretend to know what Henry and friends will do, but in his shoes I would want to see Bloom's next few moves.
An observant fan should’ve known as early as 2017 that the 2023 Red Sox would either be way over the CBT threshold or rebuilding. We knew the young talent that formed the core of those 2016-18 teams would be expensive now. And by 2017 we knew the farm system wasn’t going to be up to replacing our departing veterans with quality young players the way it mostly did in the Epstein/Cherington era. Once FSG decided not to write big checks to cover the gap, we were rebuilding, our unexpected success in 2021 notwithstanding. No one said so, but that doesn’t change the reality.
None of which is to say Bloom has been awesome. There’s plenty of room to find fault with his performance. But unless you think it was his choice to be 13th in payroll instead of in the top 5 (where we should be based on revenues), pointing to the team’s .500 record and last-place divisional standing as proof of poor performance is facile analysis.
Beyond that, his young age makes one of those 10 year low AAV deals possible that we've all been clamoring for if he wants to dance and shows something early. It's a big win as well that we was promoted so early despite poor surface results or he could just be starting in High A now.
Henry saw his 2019 team blow up when a cluster of injuries and ineffectiveness took out highly paid veteran starters Sale, Price, Eovaldi, and Porcello. He looked longingly at Tampa and saw how they continually won (at least in the regular season) without spending significantly, especially on pitchers; cast aside his mercenary GM and replaced him, looking to replicate Tampa’s success and avoiding spending tons of money on high risk pitching.
Now, 4 years later, the Sox are kind of in a weird place. The major league team is mediocre. There isn’t much pitching at the major league level, and little on the horizon, of course, in part because the Sox have not emphasized pitching much at the amateur level.
The argument now seems to be that the Sox have to dip into that high risk FA pitching pool that helped them win a title- but that also got them in this situation to begin with.
No idea where they will go. Being two good starting pitchers away from contention is hardly a unique proposition, as far as I can tell. Without having any insight into how Henry thinks things are going, it’s impossible to speculate as to what his next move will be- history shows his most GM’s tend to last about four years.
Now, 4 years later, the Sox are kind of in a weird place. The major league team is mediocre. There isn’t much pitching at the major league level, and little on the horizon, of course, in part because the Sox have not emphasized pitching much at the amateur level.
The argument now seems to be that the Sox have to dip into that high risk FA pitching pool that helped them win a title- but that also got them in this situation to begin with.
No idea where they will go. Being two good starting pitchers away from contention is hardly a unique proposition, as far as I can tell. Without having any insight into how Henry thinks things are going, it’s impossible to speculate as to what his next move will be- history shows his most GM’s tend to last about four years.
I suspect that they’re both back but if they don’t make the playoffs it’s over for them both.
Cora is navigating the ship that Bloom mostly built…. There’s a legit excuse that the mast (Sale…. Get it?) is garbage and the other parts weren’t totally ready to fully set sail yet.
The money is now available to get a new mast and rudder and the other parts are done (as in; the entire non-starting pitching team could go into ‘24 exactly how it’s currently constructed with two new starters added and SHOULD be able to be in the playoffs no problem).
If they fail to JUST get to the playoffs….shipbuilder and captain should get tossed.
Cora is navigating the ship that Bloom mostly built…. There’s a legit excuse that the mast (Sale…. Get it?) is garbage and the other parts weren’t totally ready to fully set sail yet.
The money is now available to get a new mast and rudder and the other parts are done (as in; the entire non-starting pitching team could go into ‘24 exactly how it’s currently constructed with two new starters added and SHOULD be able to be in the playoffs no problem).
If they fail to JUST get to the playoffs….shipbuilder and captain should get tossed.
I’m in the “Bloom is executing the plan he was brought in to do” camp. Basically rebuilding the farm system and getting some salary relief to allow for targeted FA signings. He’s not going anywhere in the short term.
On the other hand, I was against the Cora hiring. Given the poor base running, defense, and overall lack of baseball awareness we’ve seen this season he needs to go as does most of his staff.
On the other hand, I was against the Cora hiring. Given the poor base running, defense, and overall lack of baseball awareness we’ve seen this season he needs to go as does most of his staff.
Huh. When you put it like that, it almost makes me wonder whether the Red Sox might be undergoing some kind of a rebuild or something.
The terminology that is used hardly matters.
What matters is that its looking likely that the Sox are headed towards their third sub-.500 season in Bloom's four years.
This team needs to win in 2024. And by "win" I mean compete for the division and be a plausible ALCS contender.
If not they need to clean house in the front office.
What matters is that its looking likely that the Sox are headed towards their third sub-.500 season in Bloom's four years.
This team needs to win in 2024. And by "win" I mean compete for the division and be a plausible ALCS contender.
If not they need to clean house in the front office.
This is essentially the fifth or sixteenth iteration of the same basic thread. The Red Sox suck! Do you think they should fire the guys running the team? And the people who hate the fact that the Sox are rebuilding chime in to say that the Red Sox suck and are irrelevant. And the people who support the process of rebuilding in an a way that reflects success in the modern game chime in to say that the Red Sox are where they are as part of a plan not incompetence. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.
A more fun exercise would be to start a thread like this but with an OP in which every single poster’s response is prewritten.
A more fun exercise would be to start a thread like this but with an OP in which every single poster’s response is prewritten.
The only reason they are bit lower in payroll this year is that they felt (correctly, IMO) that they had to dip under the tax. Cot's has them 12th in opening day payroll; the 3 years previous to this they were 6th, 8th, and 4th. I'd expect them to be higher than 12th next year.
I voted both stay but I'm substantially less confident on Cora than I am on Bloom.
For Bloom, I imagine leadership will be looking at the team when Bloom took over - which was after 2019 - and what he has now. The 2019 and 2023 Red Sox are probably both 84ish win teams - but what Bloom has done was drastically improve the farm system, and have the financials spread out a ton more than the 2019 squad did (The 2019 team had 7 15m+ deals - a few of which were longer term deals. The 2023 team had 7 10m+ deals and all but Yoshida, Devers, and Story were short term or inherited deals). This makes it a lot easier to stay under the tax while keeping talent you need to keep and acquiring talent you don't have in house. The next couple years I presume would be make or break for Bloom - there's enough prospect wealth that can be converted into appropriate and valuable MLB talent and enough salary freedom that they should be players in the FA/Trade Markets to push this team forward. I would suspect if leadership doesn't see a 90 win type Sox team in 2024 or 2025 they may move in a different direction, but doing so now would be a very odd move to me. Frankly, if they're going to fire him, I'd be shocked at his deadline approach given the ammo was there to make moves if he thought his job was in danger or Henry expected the team to load up.
Cora on the other hand, I could see them going either way on. I think a lot of it will be internal review on to if this 80-84 win team was close to maximizing its potential or if it could have been in this race longer with some tweaks.
Also the "last place" thing does seem to obscure the reality of it all. People can absolutely be disappointed that September games are meaningless without skewing it like that - the 2023 AL East is the best division in recent memory and in literally any other division in baseball they are well out of the basement. Call it like it is - the 2023 Red Sox are mediocre and flawed baseball team in an exceedingly tough division (they have played 92 games against teams above .500, the Twins have played 77 - the Twins are three games up in the standings and ahead in their division by 7).
For Bloom, I imagine leadership will be looking at the team when Bloom took over - which was after 2019 - and what he has now. The 2019 and 2023 Red Sox are probably both 84ish win teams - but what Bloom has done was drastically improve the farm system, and have the financials spread out a ton more than the 2019 squad did (The 2019 team had 7 15m+ deals - a few of which were longer term deals. The 2023 team had 7 10m+ deals and all but Yoshida, Devers, and Story were short term or inherited deals). This makes it a lot easier to stay under the tax while keeping talent you need to keep and acquiring talent you don't have in house. The next couple years I presume would be make or break for Bloom - there's enough prospect wealth that can be converted into appropriate and valuable MLB talent and enough salary freedom that they should be players in the FA/Trade Markets to push this team forward. I would suspect if leadership doesn't see a 90 win type Sox team in 2024 or 2025 they may move in a different direction, but doing so now would be a very odd move to me. Frankly, if they're going to fire him, I'd be shocked at his deadline approach given the ammo was there to make moves if he thought his job was in danger or Henry expected the team to load up.
Cora on the other hand, I could see them going either way on. I think a lot of it will be internal review on to if this 80-84 win team was close to maximizing its potential or if it could have been in this race longer with some tweaks.
Also the "last place" thing does seem to obscure the reality of it all. People can absolutely be disappointed that September games are meaningless without skewing it like that - the 2023 AL East is the best division in recent memory and in literally any other division in baseball they are well out of the basement. Call it like it is - the 2023 Red Sox are mediocre and flawed baseball team in an exceedingly tough division (they have played 92 games against teams above .500, the Twins have played 77 - the Twins are three games up in the standings and ahead in their division by 7).
It has been pointed out multiple--and I mean lots and lots and lots of times--that the biggest challenge in executing this rebuild is that the Sox ownership believes it is not allowed to announce a rebuild. That is why the process has been referred to many, many, many times here as a "stealth" rebuild. Everyone knows they are doing it, but they can't say it, and they can't bottom out and get to the results faster. It is no evidence that they are NOT rebuilding to point out here that they have never announced they are building. Other than that, sure.
The idea was that Bloom could have identified players that would be good / bad major leaguers and made a call on players and moved them while they had trade value.
Bloom could very well be a good (or very good) GM, but plenty of other good / very good GMs make deals before other teams get wise. Sure, the Sale contract was moronic and got him out of town, but Bloom's immediate predecessor has made an entire very successful career doing this. Cherington did a pretty decent job of this while he was here (the only player that seems even remotely to have come back and bitten him was Reddick as part of the Bailey trade). Theo did a good job of this too (the only prospect trade I can truly think of him really "losing" was Rizzo for Gonzalez, and even there Gonzalez was a good player, but not the replacement to Manny Ramirez some were hoping for - as a complement to Ortiz - not as a RHH OF, obviously) many were hoping for.
Again, I'm not trying to say "Bloom hasn't done this, so he sucks". I'm more saying that if we want to give him credit for holding on to the good players (Bello, Casas, at a certain level Duran) that we should also look at his holding onto those that didn't provide any value and think of what he could have done differently. There is a lot of middle ground between the two extremes, and one has to look at the outcomes of both decisions, at least in my opinion.
Either way, just to reiterate from the overall point of the thread which isn't to say what we think should happen but what we think will happen:
1 - I don't think Bloom is going anywhere, and I think he will be extended.
2 - I think Cora will ask to leave and be granted that (and end up with NYY, NYM, SD, Texas or possibly Miami)
Most of those aren’t going to be open. Bochy and Schumaker in particular aren’t going anywhere after one year. My hunch is he replaces Tito.
B
Yeah, the managerial openings besides Cleveland… LA/Anaheim and maybe St. Louis? Probably not the Mets or Padres (probably!), I’ll let @jon abbey and company assess Boone’s chances. I was going to say it seems like teams are less willing to make a managerial change these days but then I remembered there were three in-season firings last year!
That's another good guess.
I tend to think if he had a choice, he'd want more of a "big market" team, which is why I listed Miami last even with his heritage, but maybe he just wants to be done with Bloom (or Bloom wants to be done with Cora) and in that case I could totally see Cleveland as well.
Aaron Judge was a free agent after the 2022 season and the Yankees managed to re-sign him, in spite of bigger offers (San Diego).
And if Judge decided he wanted to play on the West Coast and grow a beard, there wasn't anything the Yankees could do about it.
The last time they went through a 3 in 4 years sub-.500 stretch, they then won three straight division titles and World Series. I feel like there are a lot of parallels to be drawn there, and like the last time, they seem to be on the cusp of breaking through. A solid core of players in the lineup with a few more prospects in the pipeline. Some solid pitching but in need of more. The last time, they signed Price, then traded for Sale and were on their way. This time they're in position to do something similar.
About the only significant difference between then and now is arguably the quality of the division. The Sox rise then coincided with the Rays being down and the Jays and O's taking a down turn. Seems less likely they're all on the down slope this time so maybe division titles aren't a lock but there's certainly reason to believe the Sox can win more than they lose and be more serious contenders moving forward.
A question regarding the rebuilding of the farm system, from someone who does not follow that part of the game much at all. What is the usual cause for a system being poor? Is it the franchise is run by people who are lacking in strong player evaluation skills, and thus they draft subpar talent? Is it that a franchise does a bad job of developing players in their minor league system? Or is it that the franchise sells off too much of their system talent and can't replenish it at a high enough volume?
I ask because it seems to me that in this day and age most every GM and staff are using similar tools, skills and approaches in evaluating talent. I guess it would surprise me if there are many franchises among the 30 who are just dumb and bad at drafting. But maybe I'm wrong on that.
I could definitely see there being differences in how franchises approach player development, and that certain approaches yield better results. Although I'd wonder that if there are clear leaders in this area why their approach wouldn't be mimicked (unless is it expensive and some franchises don't want to spend the money?).
And we know from experience that trading good prospects for MLB talent can harm the system if you do it at a rate where talent can't be restocked fast enough via the draft.
This is all to wonder what has Bloom done to rebuild the system, and is it a unique skill that differentiates him from other GMs? Are there a lot of Blooms out there who could take a similar buy-and-hold approach while not dealing them away for a few years? Or is he just smarter than the average bear?
I ask because it seems to me that in this day and age most every GM and staff are using similar tools, skills and approaches in evaluating talent. I guess it would surprise me if there are many franchises among the 30 who are just dumb and bad at drafting. But maybe I'm wrong on that.
I could definitely see there being differences in how franchises approach player development, and that certain approaches yield better results. Although I'd wonder that if there are clear leaders in this area why their approach wouldn't be mimicked (unless is it expensive and some franchises don't want to spend the money?).
And we know from experience that trading good prospects for MLB talent can harm the system if you do it at a rate where talent can't be restocked fast enough via the draft.
This is all to wonder what has Bloom done to rebuild the system, and is it a unique skill that differentiates him from other GMs? Are there a lot of Blooms out there who could take a similar buy-and-hold approach while not dealing them away for a few years? Or is he just smarter than the average bear?
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/10/red-soxs-chaim-bloom-xander-bogaerts-is-no-1-priority-talks-will-start-right-away.html
This one is self explanatory.
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/12/red-sox-still-want-to-add-starting-pitcher-with-upside-consistency-and-leadership.html
I don't think anyone read the above as "we're going to add Corey Kluber and do nothing else of consequence."
Realistically, there is nothing else that Kennedy could / should say. Who knows, they very well could both be back, but I wouldn't take anything said to the press as anything but a hypothetical or an "as we stand here today" perspective.
@8slim - my opinion (and admittedly my opinion and $2.50 gets you a coffee at Dunks) is that it's generally a combination of the first two points.
As an example, the Red Sox from 2003-2018 really did an almost model job of developing enough players and evaluating them properly that they had cheap players in the pipeline and those coming through to replace them. Names that come to mind include the obvious (Hanley R, Sanchez, Pedroia, Youk, Ellsbury, Pap, Lester, Buchholz, Masterson, Bogaerts, Betts, Bradley Jr, Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, Margot) but also those that were useful enough as big league pieces or included in trades (Delcarmen, Andy Marte, Moss, Reddick, Lowrie though he was more of an established MLB player at that point, Iglesias, Fossum, Espinoza, etc, etc).
They of course won 4 titles in that time frame and were probably seen as the best organization in baseball, at worst tied for that honor with SFG and StL.
Dombrowski certainly identified the right pieces to deal off as I can't think of a single one that came back to hurt him, and the bigger argument was "did he monetize this player enough", or could he have gotten more, but that's another argument. I suppose it's fair to critique if he did enough to rebuild the farm system (and many would say no) but many of the core pieces pointed to now where brought into the organization by DDski (and developed under Bloom) such as Bello, Casas, Duran, I'll add Rafaela as a "core" piece and wherever you want to put Houck and Crawford in that mix.
DDski didn't do much in terms of the "depth" pieces of the farm, and Bloom seems to do a good job of that. Alternatively, we have no idea what Mayer, Anthony, Bleis, Yorke, etc will look like at the big league level, assuming they all get there.
At this point we don't know where Bloom is going to fall in that continuum. The only players I can think of that have been acquired by Bloom as prospects and have reached the Majors to this point are Wong (very valuable); Seabold (already gone, but Pivetta was obviously the prize of that deal), Valdez (TBD but he's looked like a decent utility option), Abreu (looks solid, but SSS), Hamilton (looked terrible, but SSS obviously), Winckowski (he's been valuable this year, but peripherals don't back it up), Downs (terrible), and German (terrible). Both Murphy and Walter were technically drafted under DDski, but I don't know that either of them even pitched in the organization before Bloom came on board, and if so, it was for like 3 months. I'll give Bloom "credit" for those two, and I think one is fine as a swing man with some upside (Murphy), the other looks terrible, but again, SSS caveat is there.
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I think these comments are different though than talking about player acquisition strategy. YMMV.
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