Bill Simmons: Good Luck With Your Life.
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HillysLastWalk said:
No it's not.
Not in 2001, not now.
It's an entertaining male-fantasy film with some well-known actors. The only people who still give a shit about "Rounders" are the people who happen to read Bill Simmons. Mentioning "Rounders" in the same sentence as "Goodfellas" in regards to being a "classic" is moronic. It's like saying Kevin Millar and Manny Ramirez are two of the best hitters of all time
drleather2001 said:
We run with a different crowd then! If I bring up 'Rounders', I get a lot of "awesome movie", "classic", "gotta see it" in response. In other words, if someone told me they hadn't seen Rounders, the first words out of my mouth would be: "That's a classic, you have to see it".
EDIT: And I guarantee these people haven't heard of Bill Simmons. I mean, most dudes still play cards these days, no? I still play in home games all the time, am in two different poker leagues, play online (real and fake), and go to two different casinos. People I know ... love it. Does one have to compare it to something like GoodFellas to be a classic? Or maybe sometimes the subject of the movie resonates with a subset of people. And it's not like anyone I know is saying "21" is classic (another card based movie). Rounders is just an awesome movie.
I guess, what's your criteria for "classic"? Does it have to score 95+% on rottentomatoes and a 9.5/10 on imdb? Because I can throw out some low-brow comedies I'd call "classic". Someone tell me "Ace Ventura 2" isn't a classic! *Your balls are showing* ... man that line cracks me up every time I hear it. Someone tell me "Half Baked" isn't a classic! *The doctor said I need a backiotomy!*
Decent movie? Sure.
Resonates with a subset of people? Absolutely.
It's a cult movie, not a "classic".
I mean, sure you could devalue the term "classic" (which I admit is slightly ambiguous) to the point that it includes "Rounders", but then the term loses all meaning. Under any reasonable criteria, it's just not a "classic movie."
EDIT: I mean, Rotten Tomatoes, for all its faults, has it at a 65% Fresh rating. It performed poorly at the box office ($22 Million) despite the star power of Damon and Norton. The Director never did anything notable again, which suggests to me that others in the industry question the film's quality (but there might be other issues there, admittedly).
"Casablanca", "The Godfather", "Jaws", ...."Rounders"?
Resonates with a subset of people? Absolutely.
It's a cult movie, not a "classic".
I mean, sure you could devalue the term "classic" (which I admit is slightly ambiguous) to the point that it includes "Rounders", but then the term loses all meaning. Under any reasonable criteria, it's just not a "classic movie."
EDIT: I mean, Rotten Tomatoes, for all its faults, has it at a 65% Fresh rating. It performed poorly at the box office ($22 Million) despite the star power of Damon and Norton. The Director never did anything notable again, which suggests to me that others in the industry question the film's quality (but there might be other issues there, admittedly).
"Casablanca", "The Godfather", "Jaws", ...."Rounders"?
I see. We just have different meanings of classic. Cool.
EDIT: And that's what I mean, some movies I define as "classic" would probably end up as a "rotten tomato". I think you are taking a more super-literal approach, than me.
EDIT: And that's what I mean, some movies I define as "classic" would probably end up as a "rotten tomato". I think you are taking a more super-literal approach, than me.
Rounders is a solid cult movie, Goodfellas is a good but overrated gangster movie. I don't consider either a classic, but everyone has pretty varying definitions of classic
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
It can be viewed as overrated in the amount acclaim it has received when compared to other Scorsese movies. I love Goodfellas, but I also love The King of Comedy and Casino. They do not get anywhere near the popular or critical acclaim, but I think they were are on par with Goodfellas.
It's all subjective, yadda yadda yadda, but I think there's a gap between the perception of how great Goodfellas is among many movie goers (a top five movie all time according to main North American dudes aged 30-50) and where it is on a (rather pretentious) critic's list like the Sight & Sound poll, where it doesn't make the top 50.John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
I've never really paid attention to the reasoning, but I've heard the "goodfellas is overrated" comment before. I forget if it was a TV show, some article I read, and I might have heard this a few times.
For example, google "goodfellas overrated" with no quotes, the first three links are:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070219141923AAuDzbO
http://www.salon.com/2010/09/27/goodfellas_on_trial/
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/one-of-the-most-overrated-movies-of-all-time-goodfellas.186312298/
For example, google "goodfellas overrated" with no quotes, the first three links are:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070219141923AAuDzbO
http://www.salon.com/2010/09/27/goodfellas_on_trial/
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/one-of-the-most-overrated-movies-of-all-time-goodfellas.186312298/
drleather2001 said:
I completely agree with you about everything else, but after looking up that guy's imdb, I have to say there's no shame in directing episodes of Breaking Bad, Homeland, Justified, The Americans, etc. I'd certainly rather watch any of them than Rounders.
Going from directing a movie with a $10 Million dollar budget (fifteen years ago), starring up and coming stars Matt Damon and Ed Norton, to directing individual episodes of tv shows, even very good TV shows, is a major step down in career progression. Jon Hamm and John Slattery direct episodes of Mad Men, for God's sake. If "Rounders" was this misunderstood-at-the-time tour de force that people are claiming it is, then he'd be directing movies right now.Zedia said:
I don't even dislike "Rounders". It's ok. I'd watch it on a Sunday afternoon.
I imagine you in real life as someone that looks exactly like your avatar. You smoke a pipe too, don't you? 
Let us "every men" use our loosely defined "classic", while you rage in the coffee shops and book clubs!
Let us "every men" use our loosely defined "classic", while you rage in the coffee shops and book clubs!
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Around these parts it tends to mean "[X] is very popular but I'm smarter than that".
HillysLastWalk said:I imagine you in real life as someone that looks exactly like your avatar. You smoke a pipe too, don't you?
Let us "every men" use our loosely defined "classic", while you rage in the coffee shops and book clubs!
More like me raging on the toilet in the 2nd floor men's room.
And don't mess with Ray Davies. He's made tons of Classic (capital "C", dammit) music.
I think we are using "Classic" in the same way we might describe Anchorman as a classic.
There, done.
There, done.
It is viewed as some kind of pantheon movie based in large part on a few scenes and quotability, but as a film it isn't consistently better than say Casino, and to me is inferior to a movie like Raging Bull or Taxi Driver, and that is just within the same director's works. There is not a ton of great character development. That isn't to say Goodfellas isn't a very good movie, but it is often held up as a "great" or "all-time great" movie, it lacks both the depth and/or innovation to be that.John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
It's a hell of a lot less sprawling than Casino. There's almost always a point in Casino when I'm looking at my watch and going "There's an hour of this shit left?!".
Casino is Scorsese rather consciously trying to rekindle the magic of Goodfellas -- Nick Pileggi, DeNiro/Pesci playing largely the same characters, a wise guy "it used to be great before it all went to shit" narrative. The only thing it has on Goodfellas is the casino stuff.
Believe me -- I was dying to see Casino when it came out, so this isn't me just being a curmudgeon. It's just not very good.
Believe me -- I was dying to see Casino when it came out, so this isn't me just being a curmudgeon. It's just not very good.
Casino is Goodfellas with about an hour of Sharon Stone screaming thrown in for punishment.
Casino better than Goodfellas? You're fucking high.
Casino better than Goodfellas? You're fucking high.
Pretty much the only good thing David Spade has ever said (outside his role in the comedy classic Tommy Boy [See what I did there? See?]) was the one Hollywood Minute where he described Casino as "Casino? Ca-Seen it" as they put up the poster for Goodfellas. Boy did I chuckle.
Jimmy Conway goes from the young mastermind on the rise to a bitter, paranoid, defeated shell.
Tommy goes from a wiseass loose cannon to a complete psychopath who basically closes his own casket.
Henry goes from a wide-eyed kid to a rising star to a complete mess, which leads him to rat on his crew.
Paulie goes from a proud leader to a cold, sad man who is desperately holding on to the small piece his crew has left.
And the movie shows those steps as they happen. How much more character development could you possibly expect in a 2.5 hour movie?
Goodfellas is a fantastic movie, more than worthy of the high praise it has received.
Tommy goes from a wiseass loose cannon to a complete psychopath who basically closes his own casket.
Henry goes from a wide-eyed kid to a rising star to a complete mess, which leads him to rat on his crew.
Paulie goes from a proud leader to a cold, sad man who is desperately holding on to the small piece his crew has left.
And the movie shows those steps as they happen. How much more character development could you possibly expect in a 2.5 hour movie?
Goodfellas is a fantastic movie, more than worthy of the high praise it has received.
epraz said:
No. I actually am Wesley's twin brother. My old avatar was a self-portrait.
Van Everyman said:
This is how I always viewed "Casino." "Goodfellas" worked so well, and gave him the artistic license with the studios that he had lacked for much of the 80s, that Scorsese went back to the well after the commercial failure of "The Age of Innocence", pulled out all the stops, and got deliberately self-indulgent. And if you like Scorcese, it's really enjoyable to watch. I mean, the movie is like a Scorcese theme park.
Lots of artists do something similar I always felt that "Jackie Brown" was analogous (coming after "Pulp Fiction"), with Tarantino using his new found freedom to take the overlapping storyline/L.A. gangster thing to its logical conclusion in the form of a 2.5 hour movie with as many stars as he could stuff into it.
Lots of artists are "guilty" of this sort of thing, and how you feel about the artist in question often colors your opinion of the work in question. The Rolling Stones made "Exile on Main Street", which was initially hailed as a sprawling mess but is now regarded as a Classic (literally, not just among the bros) because, basically, it's self-indulgent Rolling Stones music made in their prime. Is it a *better album* than "Let it Bleed" or "Sticky Fingers"? Maybe not, but it probable depends on how you feel about the Rolling Stones in general.
Goodfellas is #48 on the Sight and Sound Director's top 100 list and #171 on Critics top 250 films of all time. It's obviously a great movie. Exactly how great is up for some debate, but clearly a major work by a major artist. Next.
When Casino first came out my buddies and I called it "Jimmy and Tommy Go to Vegas", and this was coming from guys who were in college when Goodfellas came out and loved (still love) that movie to an unhealthy degree, and were in the theater on Day 1 to see Casino. Not a bad flick but not a great one by any stretch, and I don't know how anyone could consider it better than Goodfellas, it is pretty much the same movie only not nearly as well executed.
Goodfellas is probably a bit overhyped at this point, much the same way that the Godfather is, but I don't think that means either of them are not great movies (or depending on how you define the term, classics).
Goodfellas is probably a bit overhyped at this point, much the same way that the Godfather is, but I don't think that means either of them are not great movies (or depending on how you define the term, classics).
"Goodfellas" suffers from the same issue that the original "Rocky" does, and other good-and-popular movies like "Jaws", etc... do. They are overplayed on basic cable, where they get edited to hell and shown with commercial interruptions. Their appeal ends up hurting them, because stations like Spike TV seemingly play them every fucking Thursday and Sunday nights in a bastardized format.
There's a frenetic quality to "Goodfellas" that gets completely shot to hell when it's not shown in its original form. I mean, the pace of the action (and the associated soundtrack) changes depending on what's going on in the main character's life/head.
There's a frenetic quality to "Goodfellas" that gets completely shot to hell when it's not shown in its original form. I mean, the pace of the action (and the associated soundtrack) changes depending on what's going on in the main character's life/head.
Getting back to Bill, after that really good PEDs article a few months back, what happened? Seems like he basically dropped the subject and went back to his day job of talking about the NBA. What happened to his promise of saying what's REALLY on his mind more often in written form?
I think Simmons' ordered professional priority list looks something like
- NBA TV personality
- Podcaster
- Grantland godfather
- 30-for-30 producer
- Twitter personality
- column writer
where "column writer" splits further into a prioritized list like:
- mailbags
- theme/template columns (NFL picks, NBA trades)
- fleshed-out, original ideas
...by this model, getting one of those thoughtful, passionate pieces like the PED column is going to be rare. He's just prioritizing too much other stuff. (And I can't really blame him.)
- NBA TV personality
- Podcaster
- Grantland godfather
- 30-for-30 producer
- Twitter personality
- column writer
where "column writer" splits further into a prioritized list like:
- mailbags
- theme/template columns (NFL picks, NBA trades)
- fleshed-out, original ideas
...by this model, getting one of those thoughtful, passionate pieces like the PED column is going to be rare. He's just prioritizing too much other stuff. (And I can't really blame him.)
His column has become what ESPN has been for years- the NFL and NBA network- and it's not even original content anymore, just sporadic updates of his old pre-existing formats. He has a great life, and I don't begrudge him for it at all, but his trajectory as a writer looks like downhill ski slope.
The guy is living his god damn fantasy right now...and it wasn't handed to him! He is a bball guy thru and thru, always has been. And now he's ESPNs go to basketball guy? While being the brainchild for 30 for 30 and Granttand? He may go down as the most successful modern day sports writer.
He's got my props and I don't care of he is only doing the columns that are easy or that he likes. He deserves it
He's got my props and I don't care of he is only doing the columns that are easy or that he likes. He deserves it
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
Goodfellas is great, but oddly, not for the reasons that many of its fans think. It's a prank on its audience. It taunts the notion that this is the good life. Like, they are big fish in shitty bars. They live large, but in a seedy life. It's quite brilliant, really. The culmination is them living large in prison--wow, home made gravy in prison!
It's not clear how much of the audience that loves this movie realizes that Scorsese is pissing all over this.
As for Rounders, we have qualifiers as in "cult classic" and "niche classic" for a reason. That doesn't mean the movie isn't enjoyable, but if you wan't "classic" to mean that, then we're going to need a new word for what "classic" used to denote.
It's not clear how much of the audience that loves this movie realizes that Scorsese is pissing all over this.
As for Rounders, we have qualifiers as in "cult classic" and "niche classic" for a reason. That doesn't mean the movie isn't enjoyable, but if you wan't "classic" to mean that, then we're going to need a new word for what "classic" used to denote.
Goodfellas is great, but oddly, not for the reasons that many of its fans think. It's a prank on its audience. It taunts the notion that this is the good life. Like, they are big fish in shitty bars. They live large, but in a seedy life. It's quite brilliant, really. The culmination is them living large in prison--wow, home made gravy in prison!
It's not clear how much of the audience that loves this movie realizes that Scorsese is pissing all over this.
And the Sid Vicious version of My Way over the closing credits bring that whole point home quite nicely. The main characters chose their own ruined lives and kept chasing those paths no matter how clearly they could see themselves careening into their downfalls.
It's not clear how much of the audience that loves this movie realizes that Scorsese is pissing all over this.
And the Sid Vicious version of My Way over the closing credits bring that whole point home quite nicely. The main characters chose their own ruined lives and kept chasing those paths no matter how clearly they could see themselves careening into their downfalls.
Reverend said:
Are you calling the Copa a shitty bar? It's the Copa, bro, the Copa!
Also, I'm disappointed that drleather hasn't noted that Simmons is apparently buddy buddy with the guys behind Rounders, has interviewed them in a couple of columns, and naturally wants to be fanboi #1 of a classic movie written by some of his very best Hollywood friends.
But you think he was buddy/buddy with them back in 2001 when he first pimped the movie?Marciano490 said:
Well, he used to talk about Rounders as much as he talked about Teen Wolf or Hoosiers. It was one of his go-to movies, especially when he'd talk about playing cards or going to Vegas.
My guess is that he came into contact with someone from the Rounders team when he was working on the Jimmy Kimmel show (back in 2005, maybe? An event that led to him moving to LA and the long, slow, decline of his writing output), and said "OMG, I LUV your MOVIE!" and things went from there.
I have no doubt he legitimately loves the film - it's absolutely the type of movie he seems to adore (uber-hetero male protagonist, one-dimensional male antagonist, female characters non-essential to the story, good guy wins).
My guess is that he came into contact with someone from the Rounders team when he was working on the Jimmy Kimmel show (back in 2005, maybe? An event that led to him moving to LA and the long, slow, decline of his writing output), and said "OMG, I LUV your MOVIE!" and things went from there.
I have no doubt he legitimately loves the film - it's absolutely the type of movie he seems to adore (uber-hetero male protagonist, one-dimensional male antagonist, female characters non-essential to the story, good guy wins).
Yeah if I recall wasn't the origin of his "wet blanket girlfriend" concept the girl from Rounders? In fairness to him her character is so poorly written that she fits it perfectly. She exists in that movie as a walking buzzkill.
Linking to my own work is not something I'd typically do (especially on this site), but this piece seems suitable to the occasion. Or, can count as my .02:
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/post/132780-goodfellas-the-most-definitive-american-movie-of-the-last-two-decade/
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/post/132780-goodfellas-the-most-definitive-american-movie-of-the-last-two-decade/
cromulence said:
No. I'm pretty sure it was from "Rocky". He did not like Adrian -- though most people really didn't.
Yeah if I recall wasn't the origin of his "wet blanket girlfriend" concept the girl from Rounders? In fairness to him her character is so poorly written that she fits it perfectly. She exists in that movie as a walking buzzkill.
No. I'm pretty sure it was from "Rocky". He did not like Adrian -- though most people really didn't.
But in true BSG style, the Talia Shire Hall of Fame was created more or less to give Gretchen Mol something to be inducted into.
No. I'm pretty sure it was from "Rocky". He did not like Adrian -- though most people really didn't.
But in true BSG style, the Talia Shire Hall of Fame was created more or less to give Gretchen Mol something to be inducted into.
ifmanis5 said:
I ve read a couple of references on PEDs in his columns. Not that he's written a ton since then.
