Bill O’Brien named Patriots OC

RIFan

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Last year was also a weird spot. They didn't go out and get Patricia in an OC search, he was already on staff working both sides of the ball as the assistant head coach. Then Josh left in February taking several other offensive staff with him. Bill was now into the offseason having to decide whether he was rebuilding the offensive staff or not. He chose what he THOUGHT would be a level of continuity by moving Patricia from Ast. Head coach to offense full time, he brought in Judge as well to assist. His thought process was pretty clear, that he had a couple former head coaches with an understanding of how things had worked in New England's offense, and experience on both sides of the ball. He thought that could help him continue the path... he was wrong, he underestimated their ability to translate head coach to offensive coordinator type tasks. I don't think it's that arrogant though.
I don't have much of an opinion on if BB was arrogant or just made a bad decision, but I don't think the highlighted is really true that continuity was the goal. There were definitely signs once Josh was gone that they expected to make changes to the offense. A prime example was them non-tendering Jakob Johnson and Johnson's quote saying he why he wasn't resigned. Going back to Charlie Weis, the Patriots used a FB in a lot of their offensive sets. Johnson may not have been an All Pro FB, but not having a FB on the roster was a significant shift in thinking. It seemed that they were probably going to utilize Keene and Smith in an HBack role that would have still allowed schemes similar to McDaniel's, but it obviously didn't turn out that way. In the end, I think Patricia convinced Belichick he has a plan and the offense had to change to compete in the east. Maybe when Bill writes his autobiography we'll learn why such an error in judgement occured.
View: https://twitter.com/RNBWCV/status/1505562143910944776?s=20&t=Xx2gyrRgVi3tq7U5xXEzEQ
 

astrozombie

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Maybe when Bill writes his autobiography we'll learn why such an error in judgement occured.
My personal conspiracy theory is that BB likes Patricia and Judge and not only was he doing them a solid by giving them jobs, but he was hoping to help repair their images so that they could get opportunities down the road. BB respects their football IQs and wanted them on the staff to show they could still contribute to winning football. He wasn't getting rid of Mayo (who seems to have earned his place) or his son, nor was he going to make P&J take made up consultant roles or low level positions that had nothing to do with anything. McDaniels leaves and now there is a wide open spot on the offensive side. BB probably figured he could help make sure they weren't abject failures. Unfortunately, it seems like BB underestimated how bad they would be and the dysfunction that would cause. What is really weird is that for someone who is the greatest head coach ever, who loves situational football and licks his chops at rookie QBs and looks for every angle possible... he somehow missed how terrible those Lions and Giants teams were. Or, my theory (tl;dr) - he knew they were bad and just wanted to help out his buddies but had no idea how broken they were on that side of the ball.

ETA - regardless of whether BOB is a genius, I agree with the sentiment that providing even mediocre, competent play-calling would count as a dramatic improvement and at least push the team towards some version of those early aughts teams that seemed to get a score or two early and force the other team to play catchup against a tough defense.
 
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8slim

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The article paints a pretty clear picture of both coaching dysfunction, and player dissension. Both will need to be addressed IMO. Hopefully they’re on the way with BOB. But Macs conduct all year, players going to social media and reporters to vent frustration, the Jack Jones issue, etc. all suggest to me that locker room culture needs to be addressed, along with the coaching changes. YMMV.
Gotcha. My perspective is a little different, since I think the player's frustration was very warranted. And I think it was actually a sign of the strong leadership in the locker room that a LOT more griping didn't emerge publicly. I don't see there needing to be a purge, IMHO.
 

Shelterdog

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I don't have much of an opinion on if BB was arrogant or just made a bad decision, but I don't think the highlighted is really true that continuity was the goal. There were definitely signs once Josh was gone that they expected to make changes to the offense. A prime example was them non-tendering Jakob Johnson and Johnson's quote saying he why he wasn't resigned. Going back to Charlie Weis, the Patriots used a FB in a lot of their offensive sets. Johnson may not have been an All Pro FB, but not having a FB on the roster was a significant shift in thinking. It seemed that they were probably going to utilize Keene and Smith in an HBack role that would have still allowed schemes similar to McDaniel's, but it obviously didn't turn out that way. In the end, I think Patricia convinced Belichick he has a plan and the offense had to change to compete in the east. Maybe when Bill writes his autobiography we'll learn why such an error in judgement occured.
View: https://twitter.com/RNBWCV/status/1505562143910944776?s=20&t=Xx2gyrRgVi3tq7U5xXEzEQ
Why assume that changing the offense is as Patricia’s idea and not BB’s?
 

BigJimEd

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I assume they do bring in another OL coach, maybe another WR/TE coach and make the other changes.
I was hoping for a separate QB coach but OB is filing that role. Ross Douglas will be OC/QB at the Shrine Bowl but he doesn't seem to have much if any experience with QBs.

One coach not on the roster for the bowl is Nick Caley. Considering he was interviewed for OC and had some other interviews as well that is a bit surprising. Could simply be a conflict of some sort though. Otherwise seems like he would have been the obvious choice as OC.
 

RedOctober3829

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I was hoping for a separate QB coach but OB is filing that role. Ross Douglas will be OC/QB at the Shrine Bowl but he doesn't seem to have much if any experience with QBs.

One coach not on the roster for the bowl is Nick Caley. Considering he was interviewed for OC and had some other interviews as well that is a bit surprising. Could simply be a conflict of some sort though. Otherwise seems like he would have been the obvious choice as OC.
I believe he is not under contract so he doesn't have to go.
 

DJnVa

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I was hoping for a separate QB coach but OB is filing that role.
Josh filled that role most of the years he was an OC so I'm sure it'll work. Mac and BOB will be together a lot since there's a new offense coming.
 

BigJimEd

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Josh filled that role most of the years he was an OC so I'm sure it'll work. Mac and BOB will be together a lot since there's a new offense coming.
Yeah, should work out fine. Not a big deal just hoping for a QB specific guy to work with Mac, preferable on the younger side.
 

WV Sox Fan

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Yeah, should work out fine. Not a big deal just hoping for a QB specific guy to work with Mac, preferable on the younger side.
My guess is they’ll bring in or reassign an assistant to work full-time with the QBs. Given BB’s habit of not assigning titles, he may not be officially the QB coach and probably in role would be more like an assistant QB coach (with BOB the primary QB coach). Didn’t Chad O’Shea has a similar role at one point?
 

Brand Name

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I'm not going to speak for Brand Name, but there is a huge difference between thinking that a guy is a competent NFL OC and thinking that a guy is the next great offensive football mind. One can easily be underwhelmed by BoB as a mainstream thinker retread and still think that he's a huge fucking upgrade from what we did last year. League-average coaching there would be improvement. I didn't read that as a prediction of doom on her part as much as a sigh of displeasure that the choice was a bit disappointing, where the Pats could have tried someone with a more innovative mindset.

edit: again, not trying to put words in her mouth. It's just how I interpreted her post(s) on the matter.
Thanks for this, this does nail it. I genuinely think he'll be a massive upgrade, but considering where we started, it's damning with faint praise. He's safe in that regard I think, of a low ceiling and a relatively higher floor than most. Still concerns me how little Houston would run play-action but Jones is a totally different passer than Watson, so that might be a matter of circumstance. The innovative sentence to me is important just as a general philosophy of strictly mine in hiring coaching staffs, in that I'd rather take a little bit of a risk for higher-end reward. I think that especially holds true when you also need that upside from your first round, third year passer, and less so if you have a TB12 in his prime.

God knows I've been wrong on enough though. I actively liked the Patricia hire at this time last year, and was hoping they'd bring in Judge.
 

rodderick

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Josh filled that role most of the years he was an OC so I'm sure it'll work. Mac and BOB will be together a lot since there's a new offense coming.
Yeah, but Josh was QB coach for Tom Brady, he wasn't one for a guy in need of developing.

Edit: mea culpa, he was QB coach for Mac in 2021, I thought they had Jed Fish that year.
 
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SMU_Sox

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They need a changeup to 11. So either they need to be able to go back to an efficient 12 or an efficient 21. Or hey, let's dream big 13 too right? ;) Meanwhile Andy Reid nods in approval. Oh hey did I ever mention I happen to have Andy Reid's failed valentine cards he sent to Hallmark?

KC Edition:
Roses are Red
Violents are Blue
If you're going to get some burnt ends
Bring me me some too.

Or the Philly edition:
Roses are Red
Violents are Blue
If you're going to get a cheesesteak
Bring me one too.

Seriously though 13 is how the Chiefs have used their change-up this year. It's so funny how this shit happens in real life and in person. While talking about this stuff with some of you in a different forum about how you need 2 personnel groups and why 21 or 12 forces defenses to adjust with personnel that you mis-match the Athletic comes out with the same thing on a pod. It's simple stuff really but think about it this way for the Patriots... after 2-4 years of having success with 21 personnel they dropped Jakob Johnson for peanuts and went with 12 as their changeup. The problem with 12 as a changeup is your tight ends better be good and complimentary. Ours are not. Not only that but Jonnu can't run-block for shit in motion or as a FB. When neither of your tight ends can block then if a defense stays in nickel you can't punish them by running down their throats.

Personally I want to see the return of a FB or, if they want to do 12, get a real tight end who can kick some ass as a blocker. You could even double-down and take two tight ends who compliment each other like Darnell Washington and... Kincaid or Mayer, though Mayer is probably the most balanced of the TEs in this draft. Either way they need to find a change-up personnel package. If they keep Parker and Meyer though those two are ass-kickers as run blockers.
 

luckiestman

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Just to clarify, I'm taking the under on three plays before BOB gets criticized and the over on how many times we will discuss Belichick's mistake hiring Patricia/Judge
Do preseason game threads count as ”under” or does the bet commence with the opening day kickoff?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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There’s not much more satisfying than watching your team in a big game need 2 yards and watching a fullback pancake a guy. I could probably watch 2018 Patriots highlights once a week. Receivers and tight ends who can block are nice too.

But do they even make true fullbacks anymore? I can only think of a handful. Ricard, Ham and Johnson are off the market. Burton is a free agent but no spring chicken.
 

Dotrat

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My guess is they’ll bring in or reassign an assistant to work full-time with the QBs. Given BB’s habit of not assigning titles, he may not be officially the QB coach and probably in role would be more like an assistant QB coach (with BOB the primary QB coach). Didn’t Chad O’Shea has a similar role at one point?
Hoyer would seem to be the likely candidate. He knows Mac as well as anyone in the NFL and has worked with BB and BOB.
 

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I believe that based on personnel, this can be a solid offensive group. My hope is that this team can play more "complimentary" football and win games that way. Here is what I would really like to see:

  1. Cut down on false starts
  2. Minimize the delay of game penalties - I dont know the numbers but it seemed like they were good for 1 or 2 per game.
  3. Avoid having 2 receivers run routes into the same area of the field (The Henry/Smith play where they ran into each other was obvious, but there were other times where it seemed guys ended up running their routes into the same spot)
  4. Play with some tempo and pace
  5. Red Zone efficiency & goal-to-go approach

To sum up - play faster, more efficiently, and become more precise. This is not 100% on coaching, but a seasoned and professional OC should help.
I would add a 6th to your excellent list.
6. Create routes that have receivers ready to receive the ball at multiple times.
It seemed like a bunch of film reviews (Orlovsky?) made note of how Mac would get to his drop and no one was ready to receive a throw this leading to sacks.

And to your point 2, I’d love to see how many unintentional DOG penalties this team took compared to league average.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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I would add a 6th to your excellent list.
6. Create routes that have receivers ready to receive the ball at multiple times.
It seemed like a bunch of film reviews (Orlovsky?) made note of how Mac would get to his drop and no one was ready to receive a throw this leading to sacks.

And to your point 2, I’d love to see how many unintentional DOG penalties this team took compared to league average.
Better coaching will help with this but getting a true WR1 would also go a long way toward solving this issue. None of the current Patriot's receivers demand double coverage. They need someone who puts a little fear in their opponents defensive backfield
 

Shelterdog

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Oregon: Dan Lanning shared today that he does not anticipate any further changes to his staff. Offensive line coach / run game coordinator Adrian Klemm had recently interviewed for a spot on Bill Belichick's staff in New England.

https://footballscoop.com/thescoop/the-scoop-wednesday-february-1-2023
I don't want to give credit to Bedard who has had some less than positive things to say about Klemm but it's definitely a little weird that Klemm left the Steelers for U of O with a couple weeks to go in the season; I think it may be ok that we're letting him go.

Based on what little I know I'd be happy with Devlin or Wendell, possible as co-coach with Yates who seems to have done the job last year with a line that showed some progress in the second half of last year.
 

BigJimEd

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I don't want to give credit to Bedard who has had some less than positive things to say about Klemm but it's definitely a little weird that Klemm left the Steelers for U of O with a couple weeks to go in the season; I think it may be ok that we're letting him go.

Based on what little I know I'd be happy with Devlin or Wendell, possible as co-coach with Yates who seems to have done the job last year with a line that showed some progress in the second half of last year.
Not a great track record at Pittsburgh based on PFF rankings. No idea what else was going on with Steelers at the time though. Obviously Oregon thought enough of Klemm to not only hire him but give him the Assistant HC and RGC titles.

working as their assistant offensive line coach in 2019 and 2020 before getting promoted to being their offensive line coach in 2021. Pittsburgh’s offensive line graded out as the ninth-best offensive line in 2019, but took a step back in 2020 (17th) before falling to 26th in 2021 (via Pro Football Focus). Klemm left the Steelers with two games left in the 2021 season to go to Oregon.
 

Shelterdog

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Not a great track record at Pittsburgh based on PFF rankings. No idea what else was going on with Steelers at the time though. Obviously Oregon thought enough of Klemm to not only hire him but give him the Assistant HC and RGC titles.
My understanding (I'm a Pac-8 or 10 or 12 or 10 or whatever it is now fan) is that he's a pretty great recruiter which might also explain the college titles
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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My understanding (I'm a Pac-8 or 10 or 12 or 10 or whatever it is now fan) is that he's a pretty great recruiter which might also explain the college titles
I was surprised he left college for the NFL in the first place. He was/is really highly regarded as a recruiter. Maybe the Pittsburgh thing was a blip, wanted to try coaching at the highest level, etc., but realized it is not for him.
 

BigJimEd

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Lawing was an assistant OL coach for a couple years in Houston before becoming their TE coach.
 

E5 Yaz

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DMac with some thoughts on last season's offense/coaching

  • On quarterback Mac Jones: “I don’t think he should be subjected to as much displeasure and scrutiny as he gets. We sat here his rookie year and said, ‘Hey, I’m with this! I like this new era.’ We go to the playoffs and it’s like ‘Here we go!’ Then what happened this year from an offensive situation coaching-staff-wise … He needs to have some consistency [around him].”
  • On 2022 QBs/offense: “I think player-wise there was enough trust that we’re going to put the best guy out there. But the struggles on offense, I think there were some guys in the locker room that were like ‘Let’s go with [Bailey] Zappe.’ Or ‘No, Mac looked good today.’ It was just a back and forth, which to me, spoke more about what we had on offense than the quarterback. We never were solidified as an offensive group that guys had full confidence in anything we were doing. There was never true hope."
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4826580/what-moves-are-next-for-bill-belichick-and-the-patriots
 

rodderick

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DMac with some thoughts on last season's offense/coaching

  • On quarterback Mac Jones: “I don’t think he should be subjected to as much displeasure and scrutiny as he gets. We sat here his rookie year and said, ‘Hey, I’m with this! I like this new era.’ We go to the playoffs and it’s like ‘Here we go!’ Then what happened this year from an offensive situation coaching-staff-wise … He needs to have some consistency [around him].”
  • On 2022 QBs/offense: “I think player-wise there was enough trust that we’re going to put the best guy out there. But the struggles on offense, I think there were some guys in the locker room that were like ‘Let’s go with [Bailey] Zappe.’ Or ‘No, Mac looked good today.’ It was just a back and forth, which to me, spoke more about what we had on offense than the quarterback. We never were solidified as an offensive group that guys had full confidence in anything we were doing. There was never true hope."
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4826580/what-moves-are-next-for-bill-belichick-and-the-patriots
Huh, kinda interesting that there were points in which there was some division between pro Mac and pro Zappe guys in the locker room. During the season I got the impression the team was squarely in Mac's camp.
 

E5 Yaz

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Huh, kinda interesting that there were points in which there was some division between pro Mac and pro Zappe guys in the locker room. During the season I got the impression the team was squarely in Mac's camp.
True, but what he added was that he thought there wasn't confidence in anything they were doing on offense ... which to me speaks to the coach, more than the QBs
 

Cellar-Door

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Huh, kinda interesting that there were points in which there was some division between pro Mac and pro Zappe guys in the locker room. During the season I got the impression the team was squarely in Mac's camp.
I bet that happens more than we think. Seems like there are a couple levels to it:
1. Everyone is behind the QB.
2. Team struggles, internally some guys are saying... maybe the other guy?
3. Team struggles, some guys are saying it, and they aren't particularly concerned if it gets out
4. Everyone hates the QB, actively leaking it to reporters (see Jets/Wilson)

Think last year NE might have been at a level 2... The offense scuffled, Zappe got a couple wins... some guys started to think...maybe he should get a shot, gotta do something. But not actively pushing for it.
 

Salva135

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I bet that happens more than we think. Seems like there are a couple levels to it:
1. Everyone is behind the QB.
2. Team struggles, internally some guys are saying... maybe the other guy?
3. Team struggles, some guys are saying it, and they aren't particularly concerned if it gets out
4. Everyone hates the QB, actively leaking it to reporters (see Jets/Wilson)

Think last year NE might have been at a level 2... The offense scuffled, Zappe got a couple wins... some guys started to think...maybe he should get a shot, gotta do something. But not actively pushing for it.
I mean, this happens on every team where the QB isn't getting it done. QB struggles to the point where a replacement is warranted, new guy comes in and the offense suddenly looks better, some guys start to question the other guy. Happens on every single team in this league that doesn't have a long-term starter, we're just not used to it.
 

Salva135

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With that said, my prediction is we don't sign Mac to a second contract. Can't say if we try to move him or what we do, but I don't think he proves himself as the guy, because he's not.
 

DJnVa

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With that said, my prediction is we don't sign Mac to a second contract. Can't say if we try to move him or what we do, but I don't think he proves himself as the guy, because he's not.
Basically you're predicting that he has another year like last season. If he does, with BoB running things then sure. But if he stabilizes, then the Pats will sign him unless another QB falls into their laps. Which seems unlikely.
 

rodderick

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Basically you're predicting that he has another year like last season. If he does, with BoB running things then sure. But if he stabilizes, then the Pats will sign him unless another QB falls into their laps. Which seems unlikely.
What if he has another season like 2021, is that worth 40+ million a year? Because that's what he'll ask for.
 

rodderick

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It won't be far off. Daniel Jones had a pretty good rookie year, two sub-par seasons, and then a pretty good 4th year. That turned out to be worth $92M guaranteed.
I think that contract is awful for the Giants in the NFC, in the AFC it would be a death sentence, at least in the short term while they can't cut him and move on the next QB.
 

Cellar-Door

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Basically you're predicting that he has another year like last season. If he does, with BoB running things then sure. But if he stabilizes, then the Pats will sign him unless another QB falls into their laps. Which seems unlikely.
I'd be shocked if Bill signs Mac if he's 2021 Mac. He might pick up his 5th year option, but Bill has always been truly ruthless on salaries, and I don't think he's changing that for a mediocre QB (though he might be retired by then). Bill knows that value at QB is how you win, either an elite talent, or a cheaper one. With Brady they played the cap game to get both in many years. Can't see him giving Mac a Daniel Jones deal unless he's a lot better than he was as a rookie, Bill would rather roll the dice on a cheap vet and/or draft somebody.
 

Salva135

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It won't be far off. Daniel Jones had a pretty good rookie year, two sub-par seasons, and then a pretty good 4th year. That turned out to be worth $92M guaranteed.
This is my nightmare. The AFC (and East) is a gauntlet right now and he'll need a significant leap to be worth investing in the long term. But he's shown he can possibly be "good enough" and I don't know what BB will do with that. Watching this team try to compete with Andy Dalton and BB's defensive gumption is a recipe for terrible football. Let's figure Mac out this season, and move on if he doesn't take the leap.
 

lexrageorge

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This is my nightmare. The AFC (and East) is a gauntlet right now and he'll need a significant leap to be worth investing in the long term. But he's shown he can possibly be "good enough" and I don't know what BB will do with that. Watching this team try to compete with Andy Dalton and BB's defensive gumption is a recipe for terrible football. Let's figure Mac out this season, and move on if he doesn't take the leap.
Well, I don't disagree that Mac needs to figure it out this season. And I don't know what Andy Dalton has to do with anything. But, as for the division:

Buffalo is at that stage where they may very well take the next step; or they could struggle with the usual set of injuries and decline and regression that impact many near contenders after a couple of seasons. Maybe Miami takes their long awaited step forward next season; or perhaps Tua gets hurt and/or struggles like he did his first 2 seasons. And maybe Aaron Rodgers is able to turn the Jets around; or maybe he falls off the aging cliff and turns into Brett Favre 2.0 in NY.

Pats should base their decision on improving their team and less on worrying about what the rest of the division is doing, because in the NFL the error bars around any sort of win projections are always large.
 

Salva135

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Well, I don't disagree that Mac needs to figure it out this season. And I don't know what Andy Dalton has to do with anything. But, as for the division:

Buffalo is at that stage where they may very well take the next step; or they could struggle with the usual set of injuries and decline and regression that impact many near contenders after a couple of seasons. Maybe Miami takes their long awaited step forward next season; or perhaps Tua gets hurt and/or struggles like he did his first 2 seasons. And maybe Aaron Rodgers is able to turn the Jets around; or maybe he falls off the aging cliff and turns into Brett Favre 2.0 in NY.

Pats should base their decision on improving their team and less on worrying about what the rest of the division is doing, because in the NFL the error bars around any sort of win projections are always large.
Andy Dalton is a placeholder name for a QB who is "good enough" to give you a winning record and a playoff spot but nothing more. That's Mac, at his absolute best in a diluted league, until proven otherwise. I'm not suggesting the Pats base their decision-making on anybody else, I'm just looking at their competition. If Rodgers joins the Jets, the Pats step onto the field at a disadvantage at the most important position in every divisional game, and if we're going further, a disadvantage pretty much top to bottom of the roster.