Additionally, if you weren't adjusting to what the defense was showing pre-snap...setting up for failure.
That said, lots of NFL teams have offensive coordinators and still ain't good, so we'll see.
Bill O’Brien named Patriots OC
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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That said, lots of NFL teams have offensive coordinators and still ain't good, so we'll see.
It sounds like Judge will still be on the staff in some coaching capacity which is… not ideal.
Plus, if some of the players think Belichick fucked them, he better take measures to re-establish trust himself. Having Patricia and Judge in visible roles slinking around won’t create the greatest dynamic. Maybe BB sits down with the captains/leadership council and hashes some things out?
Plus, if some of the players think Belichick fucked them, he better take measures to re-establish trust himself. Having Patricia and Judge in visible roles slinking around won’t create the greatest dynamic. Maybe BB sits down with the captains/leadership council and hashes some things out?
Judge had a good run as special teams coach. Also, we don’t know if those players thoughts about Belichick are widely shared in the locker room. Could be quotes from players like Wynn or Agholor who are gone next year anyway.
I'm not too worried about that. Patricia and judge didnt kill anyone or steal someone's wife. They did a poor job in a particular role that they will no.longer have. Judge had already done good time as a ST coach.
Devin Mccourty wasn't much of a CB. He did better in a different job. It's not the same, but it's not *that* different.
You can be good at your job and an asshole, like BB. You can be bad at your job and not an asshole, like Jimy Williams. You can’t be bad at your job and an asshole, like Judge, and expect to stick around for long. Hopefully he makes some adjustments to how he conducts himself (if the stories are true). Otherwise there are lots of other good humans who can coach ST just as well.
Putting aside the fact that there are lots of assholes who are bad at their jobs, once again I’ll note that Judge appears to be a very very good special teams coach whether or not he is an asshole.
Man, sounds like from that article 2022 would’ve been the year to do the football life show on BB. Seems like he presided over a complete shit show, that makes the down year we saw in 2009 feel like a tea party. Open revolt from players is fairly jaw dropping. I’m heartened that he’s taken swift, aggressive measures to address the coaching part of the debacle, but he may also need to expunge a few players from that locker room, and put one or two others on very short leash/notice(looking at you Mac).
Maybe it's open revolt; or maybe it's comments taken out of context by frustrated players. Media is known to aggressively cut-and-paste, and statements like "I love playing for Coach, but Belichick really fucked us this season" suddenly turn into "He really f---ed us".
Players openly challenged Belichick in 2009 as well, and all of them were gone the next season. Wynn and Agholor are definitely gone next year, and it's possible that Trent Brown and Kendrick Bourne will be gone as well. Would not be unexpected if there's a surprise cut or trade between now and August.
Putting aside whether BB is actually an asshole, the only stories about Judge's assholism have surfaced during his recent run in 2 positions in which he wasn't good -- HC and QBC/whatever he just was. I dont recall any complaints about his personality when he was coaching the Patriots' ST for many years. If there are any, I'm all ears/eyes.
I could absolutely imagine Mac Jones getting frustrated at running bb off tackle and going rogue and playing the oopty oop
I think West Canaan had better WR talent. Tweeder was Troy Brown / Welker / Edelman before anyone had ever heard of those guys.
Now, back to talk about O'Brien.
Now, back to talk about O'Brien.
Yeah, I don't really see open revolt, there have always been guys who hated playing for Bill (as is true of every coach), it's all about selection of quotes. If Adalius Thomas or Cassius Marsh was your go to guy the team hated Bill during the best years.
Expunging the players who “said the quiet part out loud” is the easy way of dealing with it. But that would represent vindictiveness and retribution. Right or wrong, it seems like many/most of the players on offense, probably some on defense, and other staff members thought the same thing about Messrs. Patricia and Judge (and by extension Belichick). Even recognizing the role of the media in generating clicks, when you have credible reporters who are not flamethrowers saying “that was the worst practice I have ever seen”, that’s remarkable.
So I think cleaning up the mess will be significantly more involved than hiring BOB and cutting malcontents.
So I think cleaning up the mess will be significantly more involved than hiring BOB and cutting malcontents.
Uhh, maybe? We have zero way of knowing what "many/most" of those people thought, certainly not based on anonymously sourced stories.
Whatever the level of malcontendness, isn't the O'Brien hiring and the reassignment of Judge and Patricia *exactly* what the malcontents/complainers/detractors wanted. Whether the ones who "said the quiet part out loud" get moved or not, it seems to me that BB has sent signals to the players that he heard them, that he's not infallible, and that he's dealing with it. Seems sufficient mess-cleaning to me.
Depends a little on who else is brought in doesn't it? I'm not sure it does clear it up if Judge is, for example, passing game coordinator. A secondary factor is whether BOB earns the trust of the players--his resume should do that but there are certainly folks (including knowledgeable individuals on this board) who think he is not a good offensive coordinator based on his experience at Alabama. But in general ditching a bad apple or two and bring in a legit offensive coordinator should do the trick.
You can also factor in that a blind ferret with ADD would be an improvement over last year's special teams coaching.
All of them? Maybe not “worst practice ever”, but there were plenty “this offense is a disaster” takes preseason.
1) Judge is not being named passing game coordinator. Zero chance.
2) I highly doubt NFL players are watching the Bama offense and thinking “BOB doesn’t know what he’s doing”.
There is no question that all the reporters said the offense was doing poorly in preseason/training camp.
I assume Judge is going to be kept far away from the offense--based on the article he essentially got fired from his offensive roles midseason!--I'm just saying BOB plus no other changes might not be enough. I assume they do bring in another OL coach, maybe another WR/TE coach and make the other changes.
Who knows what the players end up thinking about BOB. Bama fans _hate_ BOB so maybe Mac is hearing that? Some knowledgeable fans really criticize the work that BOB did at Bama so maybe those criticism are true and the game has passed him? I dunno. My assumption is that BOB is a very very good offensive coordinator who will do a great job this year.
Yeah, what are we talking about here? lol
We already have quotes from people close to Mac that he's thrilled.
Wellwe have a poster here saying BOB doesn’t run slants double moves or dog routes and the modern passing game has passed him. I think that’s wrong but if it is in fact accurate we’re screwed.
It’s also college vs pros with different skill sets etc and again I highly doubt NFL players are paying attention to Bama’s route combos.
If BOB performs as @Brand Name fears then sure. But they haven’t even run a mini camp yet.
Are people really blaming the players for voicing their frustration? The O was a disaster from day 1 of training camp. And these guys have incredibly short careers. One year of coaching incompetence that makes players look bad is a BIG deal to them, as it should be. That's potentially money out of their pocket when they look for deals elsewhere.
If anything, I respect them for largely keeping their mouths shut all season. Most franchises would have actually be in open revolt by late August.
If anything, I respect them for largely keeping their mouths shut all season. Most franchises would have actually be in open revolt by late August.
Some Bama fans who post here and others who post in a slack I am in study a lot of film/are coaches didn't love BOB at Bama. I would push back as saying they are spoiled fans or something like that. They also might be wrong about BOB. TBH if he is at least average as an OC we're so much better off.
I listened to the Andrew Callahan pod as well as Tom Curran's and Phil Perry's and it sounds very buttoned up. They have multiple sources for everything.
Let's review some of the criticisms:
1) They didn't have a lot of passing concepts. Kurt Warner verified that. JT O'Sullivan verified that. So two former NFL QBs verified it. I even saw that. For example my main criticism of this is easily seen in the Raiders game but also in most games... They had like 3-4 third down plays they ran over, and over, and over, and over again. Teams would sit on them. Hell the Raiders DBs RAN THEM! This is obvious and checks out. Their answers vs the Bills were basically a bunch of screens in game 1 this year.
2) They didn't have the answers to what do we do if the defense does this. You could see that especially for run blocking. There were so many plays where they didn't have hats on hats in the run game. They'd be in a run play the defense would shift quickly pre-snap or they would do a run twist or stunt, or something not vanilla, and the Patriots would have no idea how to block it. You saw this from the damn start of the season. Remember the Raiders game pre-season? Do you all remember that Y-Y wing OZ run they had? They had two tight ends on the strong side so with OT and OG it was a 4 on 4. Their 4 guys only blocked 2 and it went for a 4 yard loss. Same shit. The details were so sloppy - in this case they didn't know how to handle that particular front and how the Raiders responded to their Y-Y (double tight end wing).
The shitty details to concepts is a general symptom of malaise. Even the stuff they installed was shit. But the things they added in during the season were usually sloppier than usual. Think Jonnu and Henry... running into each other mid-route.
I listened to the Andrew Callahan pod as well as Tom Curran's and Phil Perry's and it sounds very buttoned up. They have multiple sources for everything.
Let's review some of the criticisms:
1) They didn't have a lot of passing concepts. Kurt Warner verified that. JT O'Sullivan verified that. So two former NFL QBs verified it. I even saw that. For example my main criticism of this is easily seen in the Raiders game but also in most games... They had like 3-4 third down plays they ran over, and over, and over, and over again. Teams would sit on them. Hell the Raiders DBs RAN THEM! This is obvious and checks out. Their answers vs the Bills were basically a bunch of screens in game 1 this year.
2) They didn't have the answers to what do we do if the defense does this. You could see that especially for run blocking. There were so many plays where they didn't have hats on hats in the run game. They'd be in a run play the defense would shift quickly pre-snap or they would do a run twist or stunt, or something not vanilla, and the Patriots would have no idea how to block it. You saw this from the damn start of the season. Remember the Raiders game pre-season? Do you all remember that Y-Y wing OZ run they had? They had two tight ends on the strong side so with OT and OG it was a 4 on 4. Their 4 guys only blocked 2 and it went for a 4 yard loss. Same shit. The details were so sloppy - in this case they didn't know how to handle that particular front and how the Raiders responded to their Y-Y (double tight end wing).
The shitty details to concepts is a general symptom of malaise. Even the stuff they installed was shit. But the things they added in during the season were usually sloppier than usual. Think Jonnu and Henry... running into each other mid-route.
They showed up to work knowing they were playing with essentially one hand tied behind their backs and competed their asses off while almost making the playoffs. Looking back on it, 8-9 is a better record than it should have been.
I would be shocked if Belichick would have hired him if it was accepted that BoB does not know how to run a modern NFL offense.
Should we set an over/under for the first 2023 offensive play call that people lose their minds over in the game thread?
I say it'll be our 3rd play from scrimmage. Bonus that someone will exclaim that we made a horrible mistake.
I say it'll be our 3rd play from scrimmage. Bonus that someone will exclaim that we made a horrible mistake.
To directly answer this: Reiss, Perry, Callahan. Curran has also said it, but he’s obviously a little more dramatic.
Isn't the answer, because BB came up on the defensive side of football, he had the arrogance to think that a smart defensive guy can call offense? It was sort of disrespectful to offensive coaches, in general.
I've seen this a number of times now, the idea that people weren't in love with BOB's offense at Bama. I've also read about how Alabama has THEIR offense, and the OCs that cycle through learn it to reduce turnover of the playbook, as we've heard about Mac's time working with him. So I'm really not sure how much weight to put into that criticism. He was calling the plays obviously, but how much was it really "his" offense?
View: https://twitter.com/Daboys_22/status/1617889870969704448?s=20&t=AyUx71YHFAGowCpfExExtA
When will Patriot fans want Bill O’Brien fired next season?
Week 1
30.9%
Week 2
18.7%
Week 3
27.4%
Week 4
23%
I'm not going to speak for Brand Name, but there is a huge difference between thinking that a guy is a competent NFL OC and thinking that a guy is the next great offensive football mind. One can easily be underwhelmed by BoB as a mainstream thinker retread and still think that he's a huge fucking upgrade from what we did last year. League-average coaching there would be improvement. I didn't read that as a prediction of doom on her part as much as a sigh of displeasure that the choice was a bit disappointing, where the Pats could have tried someone with a more innovative mindset.
edit: again, not trying to put words in her mouth. It's just how I interpreted her post(s) on the matter.
We've moved past the "he made a bad call" phase and are now well into the "he fucked up choosing a replacement" phase.
I'll take the under on @E5 Yaz's prop bet. Hell, I'd take the under on a "third play during 7 on 7 drills in camp" prop.
Just to clarify, I'm taking the under on three plays before BOB gets criticized and the over on how many times we will discuss Belichick's mistake hiring Patricia/Judge
Wrong. It will be the run for 1-2 yards on 2nd and 10 after an incomplete pass on first.
I think there’s a difference between expressing concerns, and being disruptive and unprofessional, and it sounds like a couple of guys crossed that line. And Mac certainly had his moments during games this year. And it may be in the best interest of everyone to accommodate them with a different place to play, if they’re that unhappy. Bill ended doing that with a couple guys after 2009, and I suspect we will see that again this off season(though I doubt Mac is one of them).
That’s mostly was I trying to get at it my first post.
It was one thing to entrust Patricia/Judge with the offense to maintain some continuity. It was another to try make a big shift in offensive identity by introducing a new scheme. They would have been hard pressed to do the former. They were completely incapable of the latter.
Every. Single. Time. For 20 years. They do finally seem to be getting away from it.
And not just a run, but in to the middle of the line.
My suggestion was more of the boundary case. If it doesn't happen before, it'll def happen at 3rd and long.
I believe that based on personnel, this can be a solid offensive group. My hope is that this team can play more "complimentary" football and win games that way. Here is what I would really like to see:
To sum up - play faster, more efficiently, and become more precise. This is not 100% on coaching, but a seasoned and professional OC should help.
- Cut down on false starts
- Minimize the delay of game penalties - I dont know the numbers but it seemed like they were good for 1 or 2 per game.
- Avoid having 2 receivers run routes into the same area of the field (The Henry/Smith play where they ran into each other was obvious, but there were other times where it seemed guys ended up running their routes into the same spot)
- Play with some tempo and pace
- Red Zone efficiency & goal-to-go approach
To sum up - play faster, more efficiently, and become more precise. This is not 100% on coaching, but a seasoned and professional OC should help.
Maybe I'm missing something, but where was the "disruptive and unprofessional" behavior? Trent Brown liking an Instagram post? Who are we talking about here? I'm genuinely at a loss.
The article paints a pretty clear picture of both coaching dysfunction, and player dissension. Both will need to be addressed IMO. Hopefully they’re on the way with BOB. But Macs conduct all year, players going to social media and reporters to vent frustration, the Jack Jones issue, etc. all suggest to me that locker room culture needs to be addressed, along with the coaching changes. YMMV.