Arb Ruling 162 Games for ARod

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,432
Southwestern CT
Average Reds said:
Isn't Manfred still bound by confidentiality agreements?
 
It appears that the MLBPA believes that the answer to this is "yes" and that MLB's victory lap on 60 Minutes last night may come with a high price.  Here's the MLBPA's reaction, via Deadspin:
 
 
"It is unfortunate that Major League Baseball apparently lacks faith in the integrity and finality of the arbitrator's decision and our Joint Drug Agreement, such that it could not resist the temptation to publicly pile on against Alex Rodriguez. It is equally troubling that the MLB-appointed panel arbitrator will himself be appearing in the '60 Minutes' segment, and that Tony Bosch, MLB's principal witness, is appearing on the program with MLB's blessing.
 
"MLB's post-decision rush to the media is inconsistent with our collectively bargained arbitration process, in general, as well as the confidentiality and credibility of the Joint Drug Agreement, in particular. After learning of tonight's '60 Minutes' segment, players have expressed anger over, among other things, MLB's inability to let the result of yesterday's decision speak for itself. As a result, the Players Association is considering all legal options available to remedy any breaches committed by MLB."
 
Here's Deadspin's take on the program:
 
 
Last night might be the moment MLB shot itself in the foot. It's been able to zealously target A-Rod with the tacit approval of the union, since Rodriguez is beloved by none and the MLBPA needs to appear on the right side of the PED controversy. But dancing on his corpse was a step too far, and future bargaining sessions—not to mention the annual review of PED procedures and punishments—are now bound to be far uglier than they needed to be.
 
I just can't believe that MLB destroyed the emerging consensus surrounding drug testing and punishment for the chance to indulge their egos and bash A-Rod on television.
 
What a bunch of morons.
 
http://deadspin.com/60-minutes-presents-the-case-against-mlb-1500126093
 

terrisus

formerly: imgran
SoSH Member
glennhoffmania said:
I agree with all that, but isn't ARod's side guilty of it as well?
 
That seems to be MLB's view too
 
 
"It is ironic that the MLBPA is complaining about MLB's participation in this program given that Mr. Rodriguez's lawyer is also participating in the show," the statement said, referring to Tacopina.
 
Rodriguez' side has talked about all sorts of things throughout this entire process, and said that they would reveal all sorts of things and such.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,432
Southwestern CT
glennhoffmania said:
I agree with all that, but isn't ARod's side guilty of it as well?
 
It's an irrelevant question, because A-Rod has been punished.  MLB has won.  For them to go on 60 Minutes and commit an obvious and egregious breach of the confidentiality provisions of the JDA is simply moronic, because it frames the issue as MLB vs. A-Rod and ignores the fact that there is a more important party to the agreement - the MLBPA. 
 
The MLBPA - which is not accused of any improprieties and has been acting in partnership with MLB during this process - isn't going to sit still and allow MLB to ignore the CBA and the JDA just because Bud Selig and Rob Manfred feel all butthurt by A-Rod's actions.  What Selig/Manfred should have done is to declare victory and let it go.  Instead, they have created a potentially huge issue for themselves in future labor talks. 
 
They are morons, pure and simple.
 

glennhoffmania

meat puppet
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
8,411,697
NY
Average Reds said:
 
It's an irrelevant question, because A-Rod has been punished.  MLB has won.  For them to go on 60 Minutes and commit an obvious and egregious breach of the confidentiality provisions of the JDA is simply moronic, because it frames the issue as MLB vs. A-Rod and ignores the fact that there is a more important party to the agreement - the MLBPA. 
 
The MLBPA isn't going to sit still and allow MLB to ignore the CBA and the JDA just because Bud Selig and Rob Manfred feel all butthurt by A-Rod's actions.  What they should have done is to declare victory and let it go.  Instead, they have created a potentially huge issue for themselves in future labor talks. 
 
They are morons, pure and simple.
 
I agree 100%.  I wasn't suggesting that ARod doing the same shit makes MLB's action ok.  I was only saying that both sides are guilty of this and if I'm the MLBPA I'd also have a discussion with ARod and tell him to knock it off. 
 

terrynever

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 25, 2005
21,717
pawtucket
Manny's crazy .400 half-season with LAD in 2008 sure takes on a new light after Bosch's interview last night. There must be a pretty good level of communication going on among the cheaters to find out who is working with which "doctors."
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,432
Southwestern CT
glennhoffmania said:
 
I agree 100%.  I wasn't suggesting that ARod doing the same shit makes MLB's action ok.  I was only saying that both sides are guilty of this and if I'm the MLBPA I'd also have a discussion with ARod and tell him to knock it off. 
 
If reports are true, A-Rod and the MLBPA have been at each others throats for some time over this issue.
 
My guess is that the MLBPA was more than happy to issue the statement they made when the decision came down - the one where they respectfully disagreed with the arbitrator's findings, but respected the process - and then cut A-Rod loose.  But Selig and Manfred's actions are forcing the MLBPA to step up and defend A-Rod.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,120
Average Reds said:
 
If reports are true, A-Rod and the MLBPA have been at each others throats for some time over this issue.
 
My guess is that the MLBPA was more than happy to issue the statement they made when the decision came down - the one where they respectfully disagreed with the arbitrator's findings, but respected the process - and then cut A-Rod loose.  But Selig and Manfred's actions are forcing the MLBPA to step up and defend A-Rod.
 
Exactly. MLB's goal here wasn't (or at least shouldn't have been) simply to be less douchey than A-Rod.
 
Manfred's involvement was especially stupid. Selig has one foot out the door and is burnishing his legacy. Manfred will have future dealings with the MLBPA, and this will hurt his credibility with them.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Moderator
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2007
17,295
Washington
I can understand Selig not wanting ARod's mouthpiece to go on the show unchallenged, but yeah, it was dumb.  The MLBPA using it to gain future leverage makes sense.
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
From a pure labor relations perspective - and despite their apparent lack of love for ARod specifically - it would behoove the MLBPA to go after Selig (and his cronies) for any apparent or actual wrongdoing in this affair. By not doing so, they open the door to more MLB capriciousness when it comes to punishments. That is to say, don't attack the arbitration rule or process itself, but the 60 Minutes business vis-a-vis his willingness to appear in any appeal. Essentially, force Selig - a public figure - to be held responsible for his public actions.
 
EDIT: I say this with no love for ARod, no real problem with the suspension verdict, and distrust of excess exercise of power on the part of the MLB since Selig became Commissioner.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,534
Source: A-Rod blew his chance to take a deal for a 50 game suspension
 
 
Buster Olney writes something that turned my head today. That A-Rod had a plea deal possible back in the spring — for a low, low, number of games — and turned it down:

If Rodriguez had agreed to something last spring, before MLB investigators had all the Biogenesis details from Bosch, Rodriguez might’ve been able to barter for a suspension for something close to 50 games, or what a first-time offender gets for a first positive PED test.  If he had taken responsibility then, owned up and made his best possible deal, then A-Rod probably would’ve been back on the field late in the 2013 season, with the whole matter behind him.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/13/source-a-rod-blew-his-chance-to-take-a-deal-for-a-50-game-suspension/
 

Gash Prex

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 18, 2002
6,863
I think its also telling that A-Rod wanted to redact portions of the arbitrators ruling in the Federal Lawsuit (which was denied today).  Interestingly the Federal Judge cited the 60 min report as another reason why it shouldn't be filed under seal.  
 

glennhoffmania

meat puppet
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
8,411,697
NY
soxhop411 said:
 
This isn't new information.  There were reports of other offers made by MLB that ARod turned down.  Once he turned them down they gave out the 211 game suspension.  Even after that they supposedly made another offer that was longer than before the announcement but still a lot less than 211, and he turned that down too.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,534
 
Daniel Barbarisi ‏@DanBarbarisi2m
Arbitrator Horwitz' decision seems to indicate 162-game ban was split -- 150 for use of 50 for use of 3 different PED's, 12 for obstructing
 
 
Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ5m
Fred Horowitz writes in his ruling: "While this length of suspension may be unprecedented ... so is the misconduct he committed.
 
 
Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ3m
More Horowitz: "The record here establishes that Rodriguez used or possessed three separate PES on multiple occasions over ... three years."
 
 
Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ2m
So Horowitz saw multiple years of PED use as multiple offenses, hence why it was much more than a 50-gamer.
 
 
 
 
Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ6m
With regard to the obstruction charge against A-Rod, Horowitz writes that the evidence "supports a minimum of two such violations."
 
Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ5m
Horowitz: "The claim by Rodriguez that science exonerates him in this case is not supported by any evidence in this record
 
Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ4m
Horowitz writes that Bosch's testimony was "direct, credible and squarely corroborated by excerpts" from notebooks.
 
 

Brian Costa ‏@BrianCostaWSJ2m
According to Horowitz's ruling, the middle man between Bosch and A-Rod was none other than...cousin Yuri Sucart.

 
 
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,120
Here's the complaint filed by A-Rod's lawyers (including the arbitrator's decision, which is attached as an exhibit).
 
benhogan said:
I was going to bash the interview, but I did learn a few things.
 
1. Pissing in midstream can help beat tests
2. Pre-game 'gummies', which is basically a low dosage of testosterone is being used and can help. That was an eye opener, guys popping these an hour before the game in the clubhouse/dugout. Makes me think this stuff is still widespread/prevalent.
3. I'll give Bosch a little credit for being honest and saying he would still be doing it if he didn't get caught.
 
Some other questions I think Pelley should have asked, and if he did please fill me in: 
 
Who else is doing it, and how did those players find you?
Lets hear about Ryan Braun?
Out of all the players that got caught, rate who were the heaviest and longest users of PEDs?
Who does he suspect is doing it that he didn't treat?
How widespread are these gummies? How hard is it to get your hands on these gummies?
 
Bosch alluded to "everyone" is doing this and always have been, Pelley pivoted and started digging into Bosch's conscience, who cares about Tony Bosch's conscience???
 
I wonder if MLB will start making guys piss in a cup before the first pitch? I know the rules say no now, but will they negotiate that with the Players Union next?  
 
I'm not going to claim to be a medical doctor (as Tony Bosch did) but based on what little I know about biology I'm EXTREMELY dubious that testosterone administered orally could have a non-placebo effect on a ballplayer's performance in a game on the same day where you take that testosterone.
 
I think Bosch is a con artist and A-Rod got played plain and simple. Sure he was good as disguising the steroids but I don't think his skills went past that. As Posnanski noted, A-Rod's performance during the time he employed Bosch bears that out.
 
http://joeposnanski.com/joeblogs/the-60-minutes-report/
 
 
In fact, the report doesn’t mention that since working with Bosch — based on Bosch’s own recollection — Rodriguez has hit .269/.356/.441 with 41 home runs in three seasons. His body has fallen apart. He has played in three playoff series and in those hit .111 and .125 and .111 again.
“I’m good at what I do,” Bosch said when asked why Rodriguez trusted him.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,534
Perhaps suing the MLBPA is not such a smart idea A-rod
 
 
Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw53m
One big downside for A-Rod in suing MLBPA: the union will likely now share negative info about him with MLB. And good chance it gets leaked.
 
Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw51m
@Shander_NBC Union has duties to A-Rod, but by suing union, union now in position where to avail itself in court, must collaborate w/MLB.
 
Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw49m
@hangingsliders If MLPBA can't defend itself adequately w/o sharing info w/MLB, I believe judge would likely allow it. Will be another fight
 
https://twitter.com/McCannSportsLaw/status/422854884707139584
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,120
soxhop411 said:
Perhaps suing the MLBPA is not such a smart idea A-rod
 
 
 
A-Rod couldn't challenge the arbitrator's decision without suing the MLBPA for breaching their duty of fair representation.
 

Gash Prex

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 18, 2002
6,863
After reading through that arbitration decision I've decided that A-Rod is completely delusional.
 
Also A-Rod took the fifth during his interview with MLB but in his lawsuit complains that Bosch took the fifth at the arbitration hearing - come on, this is just crazy.
 

ThePrideofShiner

Crests prematurely
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
10,780
Washington
Boras blasts MLB:
 

Agent Scott Boras blasted Major League Baseball on Monday, saying the sport's deal with Biogenesis founder Tony Bosch will only embolden other "pushers" to distribute performance-enhancing drugs to players.
 
Boras, the former agent for Alex Rodriguez, was agitated as he spoke on the phone, telling FOX Sports that baseball is wrong to prosecute players while entering relationships with their suppliers.
 
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/agent-scott-boras-says-mlb-wrong-to-go-after-players-and-not-ped-distributors-alex-rodriguez-011314
 

Sampo Gida

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 7, 2010
5,044
Gash Prex said:
After reading through that arbitration decision I've decided that A-Rod is completely delusional.
 
Also A-Rod took the fifth during his interview with MLB but in his lawsuit complains that Bosch took the fifth at the arbitration hearing - come on, this is just crazy.
 
Obviously, the accused (defendant) is accorded certain rights, and the accusers (prosecution) must be held to a higher standard.  MLB's entire case hinged on Bosch,  If he was not willing to answer all questions, his testimony should not be allowed, or should at least be heavily discounted.    The fact that Selig was not allowed to be questioned by Arods teams is also disturbing.
 
Its interesting that in the notice of discipline that Selig held out the possibility of an additional suspension based on other investigations.  This is probably why the Yankees will not release Arod, since it is very likely not all of that 61 million will need to be paid.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,464
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Sampo Gida said:
Obviously, the accused (defendant) is accorded certain rights, and the accusers (prosecution) must be held to a higher standard.  MLB's entire case hinged on Bosch,  If he was not willing to answer all questions, his testimony should not be allowed, or should at least be heavily discounted.    The fact that Selig was not allowed to be questioned by Arods teams is also disturbing.
 
Its interesting that in the notice of discipline that Selig held out the possibility of an additional suspension based on other investigations.  This is probably why the Yankees will not release Arod, since it is very likely not all of that 61 million will need to be paid.
I have never understood the argument that Selig should have been forced to testify. Since when do CEOs of major corporations testify at disciplinary hearings of employees? Arod only wanted him there so he could paint this as a personal vendetta. When he failed to testify in his own defense he lost all hope of any happy ending.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,120
Obviously, the accused (defendant) is accorded certain rights, and the accusers (prosecution) must be held to a higher standard. MLB's entire case hinged on Bosch, If he was not willing to answer all questions, his testimony should not be allowed, or should at least be heavily discounted. The fact that Selig was not allowed to be questioned by Arods teams is also disturbing.

Its interesting that in the notice of discipline that Selig held out the possibility of an additional suspension based on other investigations. This is probably why the Yankees will not release Arod, since it is very likely not all of that 61 million will need to be paid.


In one breath, A-Rod's attorneys are indignant that the arbitrator didn't apply the same rules of evidence that would apply in a court of law. In the next, they are indignant that the arbitrator allowed Bosch not to answer questions about unrelated criminal conduct that wouldn't be allowed in court. Of course A-Rod is entitled to zealous representation, but his attorneys might be well-served to pick their spots -- I understand the logic of throwing every conceivable argument at the wall and seeing what sticks, but if you want a federal judge to take the extraordinary step of setting side an arbitral decision, it probably helps if you have some credibility.

I'm not sure why the arbitrator didn't require Selig to testify, at least concerning his knowledge re: the source of leaks to the press about the case. Of course, A-Rod's attorneys were interested in grilling him about the Biogenesis investigation, but MLB's tactics weren't relevant to the arbitration.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 22, 2008
36,120
I have never understood the argument that Selig should have been forced to testify. Since when do CEOs of major corporations testify at disciplinary hearings of employees? Arod only wanted him there so he could paint this as a personal vendetta. When he failed to testify in his own defense he lost all hope of any happy ending.
Your typical CEO doesn't make decisions about how union employees are disciplined.

I guess the arbitrator decided that Selig's testimony wouldn't have been relevant, and that's his prerogative, but this is one of the few complaints from A-Rod's camp that seems even remotely reasonable.
 

glennhoffmania

meat puppet
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
8,411,697
NY
One thing that continues to amaze me about all of this, not just about ARod but all of the players involved, is that these guys would trust a guy like Bosch to tell them what to put in their bodies.  I think you have to be nuts to take these risks (aside from the risk of testing positive) when you make your living as an athlete.
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2006
36,005
Maui
glennhoffmania said:
One thing that continues to amaze me about all of this, not just about ARod but all of the players involved, is that these guys would trust a guy like Bosch to tell them what to put in their bodies.  I think you have to be nuts to take these risks (aside from the risk of testing positive) when you make your living as an athlete.
I guess when you come down to it, money can't buy you intelligence.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Moderator
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2007
17,295
Washington
Hey, cut him slack -- ARod had good character references on Bosch from Manny. Clearly he was trying to be safe ;)
 

melonbag

New Member
Sep 29, 2011
133
maufman said:
I'm not sure why the arbitrator didn't require Selig to testify, at least concerning his knowledge re: the source of leaks to the press about the case. Of course, A-Rod's attorneys were interested in grilling him about the Biogenesis investigation, but MLB's tactics weren't relevant to the arbitration.
 
From what I understand, there needs to be a designated representative for MLB.  And as per the CBA, it doesn't have to be the commissioner.  MLB appointed Manfred to take the stand as their representative- and he was the only one from MLB that needed to testify.  Manfred's role was identified early in the process to the player's union and was accepted.  
 
In other words, Selig not having to testify was not isolated to the ARod arbitration hearing.  In fact, I don't believe that Selig acted as MLB's representative in previous drug related arbitration hearings.  Does anyone know for sure?



 


 
 

 
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
 
From what I understand, there needs to be a designated representative for MLB.  And as per the CBA, it doesn't have to be the commissioner.  MLB appointed Manfred to take the stand as their representative- and he was the only one from MLB that needed to testify.  Manfred's role was identified early in the process to the player's union and was accepted.  
 
In other words, Selig not having to testify was not isolated to the ARod arbitration hearing.  In fact, I don't believe that Selig acted as MLB's representative in previous drug related arbitration hearings.  Does anyone know for sure?

 

On the day Arod stormed over to the radio show, it was widely reported that Selig had never testified at a JDA hearing. From reading the decision I can't imagine he had any info Manfred wasn't able to provide. They just wanted to cross him and ask him a million times if he had it in for ARod.
 

Spud

New Member
Nov 15, 2006
100
 
Hey, cut him slack -- ARod had good character references on Bosch from Manny. Clearly he was trying to be safe ;)
Let's suppose, just for grins and giggles, that the very same drugs, using the very same protocols, were being taken by another player with more smarts and a sterling reputation. Perhaps a Yankee teammate. First, I have no reason to believe that is in fact the case, but lets assume for fun that it is. Is there much reason to doubt that any such program -- in the case of our smart, saintly player -- would be administered by someone other than a two-bit Miami wanna be doctor and hanger on. A-Rod decided to swim with the sharks and got eaten by one -- or to put it another way, he's dumb as a post and picked the wrong people to hang with. If he had chosen a more legitimate source (assuming one was available), would the results have been different? Could he have gotten away with it? Are others? I guess what bothers me most in all of this is the fact that A-Rod appears to have been doping for 3 years and got caught not by a positive test, but because he chose clowns to administer his drug program.
 

Lowrielicious

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 19, 2011
4,328
Skeesix said:
 
I'm not going to claim to be a medical doctor (as Tony Bosch did) but based on what little I know about biology I'm EXTREMELY dubious that testosterone administered orally could have a non-placebo effect on a ballplayer's performance in a game on the same day where you take that testosterone.
 
I think Bosch is a con artist and A-Rod got played plain and simple. Sure he was good as disguising the steroids but I don't think his skills went past that. As Posnanski noted, A-Rod's performance during the time he employed Bosch bears that out.
 
http://joeposnanski.com/joeblogs/the-60-minutes-report/
 
 
Is there any chance that Bosch was actually (at least some of the time) conning these players to the point where they weren't actually even being supplied with banned substances?
He is not a doctor, never used masking agents and yet none of his clients ever tested positive. His list of clients didn't exactly light the world on fire either.
Obviously the effects of PEDS on player performance is a grey area at best, but Peralta, Cruz, Cervelli, (Everth) cabrera, Jesus montero, Arods last three years....these aren't standout performances in these players careers over the last few years that they were clients of Bosch.
 
Was any testing done on any of the substances that he was supplying to prove it was actually the good stuff he was distributing?
He wouldn't really have any reason to admit it wasn't despite the shitstorm he has been through. Admitting he cheated the players would only make his situation worse I imagine.
 
The alternative is that MLBs testing regime is so full of holes that this snake oil salesman masquerading as a doctor can be keeping a bunch of players on the juice and also keep them from testing positive.
 
It would be another twist in the already twisted soap opera that is Arods life if his career was torpedoed for taking PEDs that weren't even actually PEDs.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,599
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Lowrielicious said:
 
Is there any chance that Bosch was actually (at least some of the time) conning these players to the point where they weren't actually even being supplied with banned substances?
He is not a doctor, never used masking agents and yet none of his clients ever tested positive. His list of clients didn't exactly light the world on fire either.
Obviously the effects of PEDS on player performance is a grey area at best, but Peralta, Cruz, Cervelli, (Everth) cabrera, Jesus montero, Arods last three years....these aren't standout performances in these players careers over the last few years that they were clients of Bosch.
 
Was any testing done on any of the substances that he was supplying to prove it was actually the good stuff he was distributing?
He wouldn't really have any reason to admit it wasn't despite the shitstorm he has been through. Admitting he cheated the players would only make his situation worse I imagine.
 
The alternative is that MLBs testing regime is so full of holes that this snake oil salesman masquerading as a doctor can be keeping a bunch of players on the juice and also keep them from testing positive.
 
It would be another twist in the already twisted soap opera that is Arods life if his career was torpedoed for taking PEDs that weren't even actually PEDs.
 
You should have been on A-Rod's defense team.  
 
I wonder though about Braun - was his positive test (the one he beat at arb) ever linked to Bosch?
 

Lowrielicious

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 19, 2011
4,328
Rovin Romine said:
 
You should have been on A-Rod's defense team.  
 
I wonder though about Braun - was his positive test (the one he beat at arb) ever linked to Bosch?
Would that even fly as a defense?
Yes I thought I was getting PEDs, my "doctor" said they were PEDs, but turns out they actually weren't! I mean...look how shit I played...how could they have actually been real?
No worse that any of the other defenses he tried I suppose.
 
Good point re. Braun. I haven't seen anything on timelines when any of the players started their "treatments" with Bosch, though I haven't been following close enough to have read everything that has come out.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,006
AZ
The Arbitrator's decision is pretty good, but I think there are some grounds for attack.  My instinct is he would be more successful if he simply focused on the JDA instead of all this nonsense about grudges and agendas.  Also, given the wide discretion that arbitrators get, all his evidence-based arguments will likely go nowhere.  That said, I think there's a kernel of an argument in there that (don't shoot me) I actually find substantial.  The basic point is that the arbitrators relied on a short, vague nonspecific provision in the JDA to impose a discipline more severe than exists for violations confirmed by testing.  No matter how bad the evidence seems to be, a sanction based on a valid objective test is always more reliable than testimony, hearsay, or circumstantial, or even noncircumstantial evidence.  The arbitrator's decision to interpret the JDA in this manner is an unreasonable reading.  That's the short version.  For the long version, I'll try to lay out the basics of my argument, but a post here won't do them justice.  Anyway, it goes like this:
 
1) The arbitrator's sanction was based, entirely, on JDA Section 7.G.2 "Other Violation".   We can all debate whether there exist elsewhere in baseball documents some other basis or bases that would support a 162-game plus post-season suspension, but those are not the bases on which the arbitrator ruled, so they do not matter on appeal.  Section 7.G.2, in its entirety, provides:  "A Player may be subjected to disciplinary action for just cause by the Commissioner for any Player violation of Section 2 above not reference in Section 7.A. through 7.F above."
 
2) The arbitrators and MLB read this to mean any drug violation other than one confirmed by testing can be punished outside the 50/100/Lifetime framework.  This is too narrow a reading of the JDA.  If the sanction ultimately is to be imposed because of a finding that the player used a PES, it should be governed by 7.A through 7.F.  The catchall applies only if the violation of the JDA is something wholly different.  Put another way, it is arbitrary, capricious, and irrational to make discipline for the exact same conduct (that is, use of a PES) different, depending merely on the happenstance of how the conduct was determined.  A player who is found to have used a PES by testing should not be treated differently from a player who is found to have used a PES through some other detection method, or based on testimony.  Not only is the abritrators' reading arbitrary and capricious, it also is negated by two principles of contract interpretation:  (1) the specific trumps the general, and (2) where drafters have included a specific exception to a rule, it should be presumed they did not intend other exceptions, because they obviously know how to include them when they want them.  This one is a bit more complicated, but essentially, the JDA does contain provisions in section 7 itself  for one particular scenario in which enhanced punishment is imposed for use of PES where the method of detection is one other than testing.  Specifically, the first and second offense penalties are increased to 60 and 120 days if the evidence of possession or use is conviction of a crime.  Section 7.E. So, where the legal system has to get dragged in, MLB has imposed an extra 10 and 20 days on the typical punishment.  Clearly MLB knows how to imposed increased penalties for use of PES when it wants to.  If it had wanted to write Section 7.G.2 to mean, as it claims -- "where the player has used a PES as confirmed by evidence but not by testing" -- it could have done that.
 
3) That this is an irrational reading of the JDA is further established by the fact that courts should not read contracts to give them unreasonable meanings.  Why should a violation that is based on use of a PES established by some measure of evidence other than testing require a more severe sanction?  Especially where the JDA establishes, when the method of detection is full blown conviction under the criminal burden of proof, only a tack on of 10 and 20 games to the first and second violation?  
 
4) The arbitrators' decision is also arbitrary and capricious, because it imposed the equivalent of a progressive sanction based on a finding of three PES uses, even though no notice of intent to sanction, or sanction, had been given for the first or second use.  The arbitrators did not disagree, but found this analysis to be compelled by Section 7.L of the JDA, which relates to notices of violation.  The arbitrators read that provision to mean that so long as the three substances are different substances, progressive sanctions can be imposed even without notice.  A hypothetical illustrates why this is an unreasonable reading.  Imagine that a player fails three tests, each for a different substance, and is given notice all at once.  Would this result in a lifetime ban?  It would have to under the arbitrators' and MLB's reasoning.  This can't be what the JDA was intended to do, and thus is an unreasonable reading.  Part of the notice requirement is to give the athlete notice that if he screws up again, he's going to get hammered worse.  This is a key element of a progressive sanction scheme -- it must give the accused the opportunity to conform his conduct in the future after the first and second violation.  Here, MLB aggregated three past violations and imposed a progressive sanction.
 
That would be my argument.  I can say more, but this is too long already.  I actually feel like 1-3 are good points, but it starts to break down at part 4. 
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,121
Newton
Marchman brings the hammer down:

@Deadspin: Major League Baseball's war on drugs (and Alex Rodriguez) is an immoral shitshow. http://t.co/HV9IQRKEjT
 

Myt1

educated, civility-loving ass
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 13, 2006
41,853
South Boston
BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
I have never understood the argument that Selig should have been forced to testify. Since when do CEOs of major corporations testify at disciplinary hearings of employees?
He was personally involved in the investigation and personally made the decision on the specific punishment.  This analogy is delusional.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,599
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Lowrielicious said:
Would that even fly as a defense?
Yes I thought I was getting PEDs, my "doctor" said they were PEDs, but turns out they actually weren't! I mean...look how shit I played...how could they have actually been real?
No worse that any of the other defenses he tried I suppose.
 
Good point re. Braun. I haven't seen anything on timelines when any of the players started their "treatments" with Bosch, though I haven't been following close enough to have read everything that has come out.
 
In a criminal context, no.  
 
But this isn't a criminal context.  I'm not sure (off the cuff) that the joint agreement does not have "intent to procure" language in it.  If it does, your argument does not fly.  But if there's no "intent" language, then it would follow that one can only violate the agreement by using the actual, enumerated, banned PES.  You can't violate for overdosing on shark fin soup or any other kind of quack enhancement.  Nor could you secretly hope that the shake your trainer gave you had a testosterone booster (and thus violate on that hope alone).  
 
Here, there was a finding that ARod did take PES, based on testimony, but I think (IF there was no language to the contrary) your defense would be valid enough to raise.  If Bosch can't corroborate that he actually got ahold of real PES, then possible placebo dosing is a very good argument. 
 

Jaylach

Gamergate shitlord
Sep 26, 2007
1,636
Vernon, CT
Here's one thing I'm wondering.. and I'm thinking the answer is "no" but I'm going to ask all the legal experts here instead..
 
Let's say the Court hears ARod's case, hears all the evidence, and finds that everything was kosher in regards to the arbitration and the decision stands. Let's say that during the course of hearing evidence they find that ARod actually did possess illegal drugs. 
 
Could the courts use this to open an actual criminal investigation into ARod for possessing illegal drugs? 
 

Myt1

educated, civility-loving ass
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 13, 2006
41,853
South Boston
The local prosecutors can use whatever (including nothing) they want to open a criminal investigation into A-Rod doing drugs.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,006
AZ
Jaylach said:
Here's one thing I'm wondering.. and I'm thinking the answer is "no" but I'm going to ask all the legal experts here instead..
 
Let's say the Court hears ARod's case, hears all the evidence, and finds that everything was kosher in regards to the arbitration and the decision stands. Let's say that during the course of hearing evidence they find that ARod actually did possess illegal drugs. 
 
Could the courts use this to open an actual criminal investigation into ARod for possessing illegal drugs? 
 
Probably won't be any actual findings made along those lines in the arbitration.  Usually, the standard is very deferential to sustain an arbitration award.  I'm not sure what the standard is for arbitration under the labor laws, but usually you need to show, with respect to facts, only that arbitrator's decision is supported by some evidence, and for legal rulings you just have to show that the arbitrator didn't manifestly disregard the law.
 
If a potentially juicy document turns up or something, prosecutors could subpoena -- assuming anyone has the balls or inclination to pursue an athlete PED case after Bonds and Clemens.