Yeah I know that it's a small sample size and doesn't mean much, but they had 31 assists tonight on 43 made baskets, and both Tatum and Brown were +20, and the team passed like the '86 Celtics.
Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season
- Thread starter Imbricus
- Start date
There is no trade that combines JT with anything to get a better star.
Smart - 11 assists, 0 TO, 6 shots (although at least three of them were horrible).
Yes a few were bad, but he passed out of a few that he'd normally take (I'm sure that you saw that too). Progress. Grant said post-game that their film session was off the hook. Skepticism is warranted, but that game was a blast to watch.
Having a shooter like JB next to JT looks to me that it opens the court up for Tatum. I also thought it was a good change of pave to have JB initiate the offense. 5 assists for JB (although 3 TO).
I'd take the blowout win over Miami. It was on the road, Miami was healthy and rolling, and coincidentally, that may have been the last time that Jaylen was healthy.
The way they played at both ends in this home win against the Bucks is how the Celtics need to play. They were connected on defense for probably two thirds of the defensive possessions. On offense, they attacked the paint with the bounce and even with some nice passing against a zone, and moved the ball off that paint attack all game. They also got the ball from one side to the other off perimeter passing.
They played through Brown to start the game (he got three early, wide open threes for JT, who missed two of them) and they initiated lots of offense from the top with Jaylen for the last half of the fourth. That’s an interesting way to attack, because Smart and Tatum can be very good secondary playmakers after Brown moves the defense with a pass to one of them. Tatum is extremely dangerous when he gets the ball against a scrambling defense.
Even with the Bucks missing some players, this is a great win, because Udoka can actually get his team to play the way he wants them to play. Hopefully, this isn’t a one off.
They played through Brown to start the game (he got three early, wide open threes for JT, who missed two of them) and they initiated lots of offense from the top with Jaylen for the last half of the fourth. That’s an interesting way to attack, because Smart and Tatum can be very good secondary playmakers after Brown moves the defense with a pass to one of them. Tatum is extremely dangerous when he gets the ball against a scrambling defense.
Even with the Bucks missing some players, this is a great win, because Udoka can actually get his team to play the way he wants them to play. Hopefully, this isn’t a one off.
You have to give this team time to gel with a healthy JB before you can make any definitive statements on the teams potential. I personally think this team could be very very good as JB and JT open the floor up for each other, Al spaces and playmakes, Schroeder can penetrate, TL cleans up a lot and Marcus gets less shots. That’s probably not a top 5 offense but maybe top 15. That with a top 5 D is a playoff contender.
Lowe has had a pretty cursory take on the league for awhile now, particularly in the regular season when he doesn't dig in deep. I remember in 2019-20, he picked Brown over Tatum for the All-Star team, basing it on Brown's defense being better, a hilarious take both from an eye-test and numbers perspective.
It's nice he noticed that Grant can hang on the perimeter and shoot, but we all knew that anyway.
Grant needs to hit a couple of FTs to get back to 50/40/90. But he's up to .453 on the season, second on the team in made threes (fifth in attempts), and .359 for his career - not bad for a guy who started by bricking his first 25 attempts. Some of that is probably shooting from the corner more, but still.
Romeo gave them some decent minutes tonight. He was part of the "no shooting" bench unit that fell behind but also part of the beginning of the comeback after that. Had a little stretch in the second quarter where he had a couple of baskets and came out of nowhere to grab a key offensive rebound and feed someone for a three.
Marcus jacked up a couple of his classic terrible shots tonight, including a couple of above-the-break threes taken with a lot of time on the clock and with no other Celtic having touched the ball. But, in 30 minutes, he took only 6 shots. And he had 11 assists and 5 rebounds vs no turnovers.
Romeo gave them some decent minutes tonight. He was part of the "no shooting" bench unit that fell behind but also part of the beginning of the comeback after that. Had a little stretch in the second quarter where he had a couple of baskets and came out of nowhere to grab a key offensive rebound and feed someone for a three.
Marcus jacked up a couple of his classic terrible shots tonight, including a couple of above-the-break threes taken with a lot of time on the clock and with no other Celtic having touched the ball. But, in 30 minutes, he took only 6 shots. And he had 11 assists and 5 rebounds vs no turnovers.
I know "they don't have enough talent" is popular these days, but it's really hard to watch games like tonight's and not be frustrated when they play with no intensity for 4 games in a row.
The quality of the 3s they were getting was really, really high, mostly coming off attacks to the paint or good perimeter passing. They also stoned Giannis, and it didn't feel like a fluke--the Celtics have really good personnel to handle him, in contrast to the past couple years.
I liked Jaylen as de facto PG a lot, since they used that a lot just to get Tatum into his normal stack action. Felt better than Smart initiating, since Jaylen is so much more threatening as a scorer from anywhere on the court, and is a lot quicker.
Grant is just legitimately a decent NBA rotation player now, and it's not just 3s. Playing good D, making plays in the post and on short rolls, and so on.
The current roster probably taps out as a conference finals contender as constructed, but it should be way better than a .500 team. I'm pretty firmly in the "they need a talent upgrade but also need to be a lot more consistent" camp.
The quality of the 3s they were getting was really, really high, mostly coming off attacks to the paint or good perimeter passing. They also stoned Giannis, and it didn't feel like a fluke--the Celtics have really good personnel to handle him, in contrast to the past couple years.
I liked Jaylen as de facto PG a lot, since they used that a lot just to get Tatum into his normal stack action. Felt better than Smart initiating, since Jaylen is so much more threatening as a scorer from anywhere on the court, and is a lot quicker.
Grant is just legitimately a decent NBA rotation player now, and it's not just 3s. Playing good D, making plays in the post and on short rolls, and so on.
The current roster probably taps out as a conference finals contender as constructed, but it should be way better than a .500 team. I'm pretty firmly in the "they need a talent upgrade but also need to be a lot more consistent" camp.
The Celtics were 20-47 from 3 42%
3rd time this season the team has shot over 40%
Grant needs to be featured and shoot more 3s, lets see if he can handle the volume
3rd time this season the team has shot over 40%
Grant needs to be featured and shoot more 3s, lets see if he can handle the volume
The crazy thing is, it felt like they shot poorly, because the 3s were so high quality.
A lot of those looks came from Jaylen initiating the offense. I'm a fan of Jaylen as PG, and it looked like Ime was too, based on how they took Schroder out and put Smart off-ball to close. I think that will be here to stay.
The offense looks amazing when they just make an extra pass or two. It gets rid of the constant Tatum ISO, it frees up guys like Grant/Horford for threes, it allows Jaylen to get an extra step on a defender when he goes to the basket. The Celtics should just do it like a drill in practice, where you have to have four touches before you can shoot.
It's actually more simple than this in some respect. As Scal keeps saying, the ball has to touch the paint. I'm sure someone on Ime's staff is keeping track of BOS's efficiency when the ball hits the paint and when it doesn't. I'd love to see those numbers.
Me too.
Hopefully Grant has taken the leap and/or PP gets out of witness protection, etc but this team simply isn’t built with the shooting to create space any other way.
Rotation around the 3pt line is nice, but ultimately isn’t getting them the looks they need. Drive and kick athletes on the other hand they have in spades.
Grant should start with TimeLord/Horford splitting the Center minutes. GW spreads the floor for the JAYs and is a capable defender from the 4.
SSS Adv stats for TL/Horford look decent together since they are fresh to start the game and Q3 (and also play with 3 of the C's best players).
BUT Rob isn't really involved offensively when Al is on the floor, Horford tires and will be shot by season's end if he continues playing 30mpg (entire 4th quarters!). IME is not effectively getting the most out of Al and Rob in the short or long-term IMO
Plus this team desperately needs 3pt shooting and Grant has developed that skill
I don't see why this cannot be part of the solution. It just makes sense. It's not about "Can Jaylen run the offense like a PG?" which of course he cannot. It's about can he work with Tatum in a productive way.
I think you trade Schroder. He isnt getting you over the Conf Finals hump. And may not even get you TO the Conf Finals.
I also think he has been elevated to being more important then he really is as a secondary scorer and penetrator due to our players availability.
IF Brown is back AND CAN STAY HEALTHY (granted big Ifs....) I think Schroder becomes less important. And much of what we would need as a 4th ish Banana (which he would be with Brown back) can be filled by Richardson.
Add that to the perceived value as "Second best Celtic so Far" (i get arguments can be made for Al) and his value might never be higher (as far as this season goes......IOW if we wait too long his 17ppg and 30+ mins will dwindle and look less attractive to other teams).
I also think he has been elevated to being more important then he really is as a secondary scorer and penetrator due to our players availability.
IF Brown is back AND CAN STAY HEALTHY (granted big Ifs....) I think Schroder becomes less important. And much of what we would need as a 4th ish Banana (which he would be with Brown back) can be filled by Richardson.
Add that to the perceived value as "Second best Celtic so Far" (i get arguments can be made for Al) and his value might never be higher (as far as this season goes......IOW if we wait too long his 17ppg and 30+ mins will dwindle and look less attractive to other teams).
I think last night was a nice reminder that Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are stars.
I don't think it changes what I think about not having shooting at the PG position. Smart had a great game last night, he made a lot of good passes, he avoided his usual 2-4 absolutely baffling turnovers. I still don't think he can be your starting PG if you want to win a title with this group.
I don't think it changes what I think about not having shooting at the PG position. Smart had a great game last night, he made a lot of good passes, he avoided his usual 2-4 absolutely baffling turnovers. I still don't think he can be your starting PG if you want to win a title with this group.
He also wasn't playing PG last night. He was playing the "small Iggy" position, and doing so quite well.
Right, they just need someone who isn't Tatum to initiate the offense, preferably someone who is quick, a threat to score, and can get to his spot. They don't need prime Chris Paul there.
That also lets Schroder play against benches more, which is a good thing imo.
In addition to playing really good defense (granted maybe MIL's schedule had something to do with this) and avoiding the 2-4 mindnumbing TOs he sometimes makes, if Smart could also 2-3 head-scratching shots he took last night (like an above-the-break- 27 footer early in the shot clock and the pivot fade-away thing that he's apparently watched DS, JT, and JB hit but he can't (yet)), I think he would be more than useful.
I mean all-NBA level defense, playmaking, and hopefully better shooting percentage because he's taking better shots may not get him All-Star recognition but is pretty valuable to a team. I mean look at all of the praise that Thybulle gets and he doesn't do almost anything offensively.
He played a mix of PG and off-ball with Schroder on. He was much better off-ball, as he always has been. My desire to trade Smart has less to do with thinking he has no role, than that he seems like he could bring back assets and the role he fits isn't the role this team needs most.
As lovegtm pointed out, his best work was off-ball. He's good in that 6th man role, problem is... 1 he is starting and benching him could be an issue, 2, they need someone other than Schroder long term to take that spot.
As to two bigs, I think people underestimate how much it helps defensively...and I think that is why Ime is still keeping it in place. There are specific matchups where it just isn't a good approach, but especially when the bigs can each pass there's lots of reasons to use it for a bunch of minutes.
That is not a statement they should not develop more smallball lineups, just acknowledgement that it is less binary than people here sometimes argue.
That is not a statement they should not develop more smallball lineups, just acknowledgement that it is less binary than people here sometimes argue.
The Bucks win was great and badly needed. Nothing has changed though - Marcus Smart didn't magically become more efficient and the C's clearly benefitted from Brown's return. But what happens the next time Tatum and Brown both struggle? We know the answer - we will get a steady diet of the others trying to do things and its often not pretty. Pick whatever metric you want for the Celtics but as currently constituted they are a good defensive team and a bad offensive one - albeit not as bad as they have looked given Brown's absence. The net effect is that they are a .500 club and are squarely in the middle of the pack in team metrics (e.g. they are 14th in net rating at 0.8).
For the past few days, we've been imagining dealing various players on the roster but what about this? What if Stevens can add another scorer without giving up anyone in the rotation or at least reallocate the production (from D to O). Other posters have put this more eloquently but if you have a team with Tatum and Brown at their respective spots in their careers/contracts, you want to not only keep them but actually increase the talent around them. Dealing Schroder for some future assets doesn't do that, dealing Smart for spare pieces so you don't have to see him on your tv anymore doesn't satisfy that and trading Brown just to reshuffle the roster (i.e. not in a star deal) is essentially blowing it up. Of course you trade any player in the right deal but good clubs don't typically shed assets when they absolutely do not have to.
Stevens doesn't have an easy task but imo he should be relentlessly looking to upgrade this roster. Not simply blow it up for a culture change or whatever.
For the past few days, we've been imagining dealing various players on the roster but what about this? What if Stevens can add another scorer without giving up anyone in the rotation or at least reallocate the production (from D to O). Other posters have put this more eloquently but if you have a team with Tatum and Brown at their respective spots in their careers/contracts, you want to not only keep them but actually increase the talent around them. Dealing Schroder for some future assets doesn't do that, dealing Smart for spare pieces so you don't have to see him on your tv anymore doesn't satisfy that and trading Brown just to reshuffle the roster (i.e. not in a star deal) is essentially blowing it up. Of course you trade any player in the right deal but good clubs don't typically shed assets when they absolutely do not have to.
Stevens doesn't have an easy task but imo he should be relentlessly looking to upgrade this roster. Not simply blow it up for a culture change or whatever.
I don't want to be a broken record nitpicker, but go back and watch the 4th quarter. He was off-ball even without Schroder on the floor--Jaylen was bringing the ball up the floor and initiating basically every possession (sometimes just getting it quickly to Tatum), even off opposing makes. It was obviously a coaching adjustment.
Ime definitely agrees with you that he doesn't like Smart as the primary on-ball guy, and they're trying things out to get away from that.
I'm also fine with trading Smart in the right deal, and it's because he's good, and not bad, which means you can get something real for him. In a Celtics context, you can replace some things he does with a JRich/Grant/Romeo patchwork.
Yeah, I like Marcus Smart, but he pretty clearly thinks he's a point guard and wants to have the ball in his hands more as a facilitator. If Ime and the coaching staff have come to a different conclusion, I can see that causing friction. I like Marcus Smart as a passer, but the more I watch him, the more I think he's better in the connector role - he's great at making the right pass against a collapsing/rotating defense, but Marcus alone with the ball at the top of the key isn't dangerous enough as a scorer to do much to actually get that defense into rotation.
I'd like him to stick around as a secondary playmaker, but if he's not content playing that role, it might be time to move him. I also don't think the answer to this realization about Smart is more Dennis Schroder. He's a ball stopper who doesn't space the floor. He's fine in the second unit, but I'd rather Langford/Pritchard/Richardson take some of those minutes with the starters, if anything. If it works out to just put the ball in Jaylen's hands, so much the better.
You'd be trading him to a contender, so the idea that you can't get a 1st round pick is a bit silly. I mean, if you were a contending team looking for a bench scorer you'd have to not care much about winning a championship if you balked a giving a first round pick for Schroeder (considering any contending team's first round pick would be late in the first round). Now, it's not clear that a late first round pick is worth so much that the Cs would want to hurt their own playoff chances by trading him, but the idea that a late first round pick is just too grand an expectation to have as a return for Schroeder seems a bit off...
yep, nobody has suggested dealing him for a 2nd (which can always just be purchased)
adding a 1st to do a bigger deal this summer to get that 3rd star wouldn't be the worst idea
My guess is there would be plenty of demand for Schroder.
a 2nd? those are next to worthless in a deal, heck the Celtics got that exchanging TTs contract with other crappy contracts
Schroder is capable of coming off the bench, averages 17ppg, is a $6MM rental so he isn't blowing anybody's cap up and you don't need to deal a rotation player to match
How many players like that are ever available to a contender?
You might deal him for a late second to get under the tax line, though you'd need to find a bit more money (I think about half a mil more). That would be disappointing in what it says about this year's team but ownership still has credibility with me if that is the choice. it would have a material financial impact.
If they've decided they are not worried about the lux tax (or get under it a different way) I don't see why you'd take that return rather than gamble on a more interesting opportunity coming up this summer---anything from his market tanking and him taking the 20% increase (unlikely, but not totally impossible) or some other use coming up. A late second to make another team better just isn't worth it asset-wise, imo.
I also suspect that some contender will decide a 1---either late 1st soon or a heavily protected one later---is doable for Schroder given how he's played. But you never know. Fournier was more expensive cap-wise which limited his market.
If they've decided they are not worried about the lux tax (or get under it a different way) I don't see why you'd take that return rather than gamble on a more interesting opportunity coming up this summer---anything from his market tanking and him taking the 20% increase (unlikely, but not totally impossible) or some other use coming up. A late second to make another team better just isn't worth it asset-wise, imo.
I also suspect that some contender will decide a 1---either late 1st soon or a heavily protected one later---is doable for Schroder given how he's played. But you never know. Fournier was more expensive cap-wise which limited his market.
Speculation I've seen is the Celtics could get a decent rookie deal guy or a late/protected 1st. Small chance a player goes down with an injury and you can get more.
wonder if DEN would consider parting with a protected 1st and Nnaji or something like that.
wonder if DEN would consider parting with a protected 1st and Nnaji or something like that.
If they think the current year's team doesn't have conference finals potential, then getting under the tax seems fine, to delay repeater. Otherwise it's probably better to compete and try to be a destination a good player is happy getting dealt to or S&T'd to.
Miami does a good job of this with their whole Culture schtick (and yes I'm aware of the other draws of Miami.)
Hernangomez+ getting moved to another balance sheet, towards the end of trade deadline (ala Theis/Bulls move last year) will take care of the repeater. That seems like #41s most impt role this season
Last year Utah, a contender, paid a 2nd for Matt Thomas at the deadline
The Jazz fill their 15th roster spot with a sharpshooter (story)
Last year Utah, a contender, paid a 2nd for Matt Thomas at the deadline
The Jazz fill their 15th roster spot with a sharpshooter (story)
- Jazz acquire Matt Thomas.
- Raptors acquire the Warriors’ 2021 second-round pick.
I would be careful using contenders up against the cap/tax as the market for the trade of draft picks sine they were likely looking to dump these picks anyway rather than sign a mid-2nd rounder to an above min, multi-year deal which is the standard market nowadays.
I was thinking more in terms of Schroder's market. He isn't getting moved for a 2nd, that's what exp. end of the bench players go for
DS at 17ppg would be hugely beneficial on numerous contenders...lets hope the C's are one of them
I like this comment, right down to the drill in practice (I've thought of that myself). When they are passing well this year, they look so much better than last year; it's totally night and day. I know Ime has his faults, but I love the emphasis on assists/passing. Brad just didn't have a strong enough voice last year to make that adjustment happen. It really did take a new coach.
I think it's very possible, maybe even likely, you couldn't get a first for Schroder.
The Celtics only gave up two future seconds for Fournier last year, who was more expensive as an expiring but came with Bird rights.
Fournier and Schroder strike me as similar value players.
FOurnier's market was limited by the number of teams that could eat his large salary, he cost seconds because the Celtics ate the full $17M and in the process not only saved ORL a ton of money, they also gave them a $17M trade exception. No other contender could come close to that, most simply couldn't even find expiring salary match and were priced out.
Schroeder is much more appealing to a contender because the salary match is simple, every team has scrubs they can move to match $5.9M, he costs you very little (and for teams in the tax $12M less against that number is pretty big, since it's somewhere between 15 and 30M in cash depending how deep in the repeater you are).
I think Schroder could bring back a late/protected 1st because he'll have far more suitors among contenders if the Celtics make him available.
Didn't realize that IME's offense was called a " .5 scheme".
It's definitely a lot more enjoyable to watch than pound the ball/coma ISO
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/12/14/22834238/speed-and-execution-how-boston-celtics-found-their-groove-milwaukee-bucks-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
Sprinting into screens, making decisions in under a second, and executing with deliberate intentions. The Celtics operated in Udoka’s “0.5” system for the first time this season, and the results were striking.
The “0.5” system is predicated on teams operating in a five-out offense (where everyone lines up beyond the perimeter) and makes quick decisions with the ball. Once an initial action (the entry action) has been made, players will begin to operate inside of the paint, but the philosophy remains the same. Make a decision within half a second, and then execute with pace.
It's definitely a lot more enjoyable to watch than pound the ball/coma ISO
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/12/14/22834238/speed-and-execution-how-boston-celtics-found-their-groove-milwaukee-bucks-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
Sprinting into screens, making decisions in under a second, and executing with deliberate intentions. The Celtics operated in Udoka’s “0.5” system for the first time this season, and the results were striking.
The “0.5” system is predicated on teams operating in a five-out offense (where everyone lines up beyond the perimeter) and makes quick decisions with the ball. Once an initial action (the entry action) has been made, players will begin to operate inside of the paint, but the philosophy remains the same. Make a decision within half a second, and then execute with pace.
I agree he could bring back a late 1st. Not ruling that out at all.
I was responding to someone who thought it was silly to think that you couldn't get a first for Schroder.
I don't think it's a lock that you can. I think it's probably close either way(and I wouldn't trade him straight up even for a late 1st anyway)
I know he makes less money, he also doesn't come with the Bird rights Fournier did. Some teams might prefer having the smaller salary, but near guarantee that he walks as a rental. Some may prefer a bigger salary, but the possibility of keeping him with Bird rights or a sign and trade if he leaves.
I also think a good sized wing who can shoot like Fournier would tend to have more suitors than a small guard like Schroder because any contender can find 25+ minutes for a wing, while Schroder would probably be viewed as just a backup PG.
I don't know, I think they're just kinda in the same bucket value-wise in a deal.
I wasn’t able to watch the game live, but this is great to hear. It’s also something I was hoping to see based upon Ime being the Pop disciple.
it seems plausible that installation of D took precedence over O, but we are swinging pendulum back. The eyetest tells me some version of drive kick is how this team is built to operate.
I have to admit watching Jaylen Brown initiate the offense in Q4 was pretty unexpected
It also worked, so curious to see that a bit more
Anyone that delved into it more than me, was it a match-up thing?
Not specifically what you are looking for but here's some video of JB and JT playing off each other. Funny that they got good looks but missed most of the shots. Also, JB should have hit TL for a dunk on one of the early plays.
View: https://twitter.com/Timi_093/status/1471123911832129541
Thanks. That was really good/quality JAY looks. Guess we should wait a month before popping the champagne over ball movement, especially with Milwaukee coming back off a back-to-back.
5 wide approach should lead to more minutes for Grant/Romeo
Yeah insert Winston Wolf quote here.
After all of the kvetching around this place last week, and everyone's finger on the "nuke it" button, it was nice to see the team play to their capabilities. It was also nice to watch a good basketball game that included the home team.