Alex Verdugo - on-field discussion thread

Ale Xander

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“If it we the regular season, he’d be playing”

“If it were the stretch run, he’d be playing”

This situation is why I haven’t opined on whether this was a good or bad trade yet. The final score on the trade can’t be written until the primary piece proves he’s healthy. If the Red Sox doctors and Bloom were wrong about this it’s a flat out disaster.

I don’t know how you look at a guy who has had 7 months to heal, still isnt right, and you DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT’S WRONG, and take him as the centerpiece of a deal for Mookie Betts and a highly subsidized David Price.

This is the Chris Sale contract all over again. Why do this when you didn’t have to?
This is likely (hopefully?) going to change by around Memorial Day, but as of right now, I'm considering the centerpiece to be Downs (nee Graterol).
 

pokey_reese

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Thank you for your level-headed, reasoned opinion . It seems we need more of that around here lately. I had a question related to service time. Hypothetically, though hopefully very unlikely, if Verdugo were to miss the entire season how does that effect his service time? Does that push everything back one year or is it essentially a 'wasted' year of control?
Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that to accrue service time you have to be on the game eligible 25-man roster, whereas someone on a long-term DL stint would not be on the 25-man (but would be on the 40-man), and thus not gain a year of service time.
 

pokey_reese

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Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that to accrue service time you have to be on the game eligible 25-man roster, whereas someone on a long-term DL stint would not be on the 25-man (and would be on the 40-man), and thus not gain a year of service time.

edit: I checked, and 60-day DL also removes players from the 40-man roster (like Pedroia, duh)
 

YTF

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Part of the issue is that the years of control thing is still being underestimated by a lot of people. Even if Verdugo missed the entire season, we would still get more excess value out of his remaining years of control than we would from a single season of arb-eligible Mookie. Look , I love Mookie too, I have his baseball card propped up on my office keyboard as a reminder every day, but Verdugo isn't a FA until 2025, and projects to be an above-average regular. This team needs players like that if they are going to try and be competitive while not getting pummeled by the luxury tax.
Thanks for this. There is a much larger scope to this deal than many are willing to see and as usual when multiple young players are involved it takes years to be able to assess a trade.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'd bet he was off the table because Friedman had his eyes on Betts, not for any other reason.


Also called Sam Travis.


Also called Mike Greenwell.


Also called Kevin Pillar. Maybe Rusney Castillo if the season has obviously gone south until 2021.
I'm assuming your point was to show the wide range of players that covers rather than comparing Sam Travis to Mike Greenwell?
 

SouthernBoSox

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In a deal where the Red Sox blew up the proposal based on a thorough review of player medicals, here we are, on SoSH, complaining about the Red Sox not reviewing medicals.
 

JCizzle

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Part of the issue is that the years of control thing is still being underestimated by a lot of people. Even if Verdugo missed the entire season, we would still get more excess value out of his remaining years of control than we would from a single season of arb-eligible Mookie. Look , I love Mookie too, I have his baseball card propped up on my office keyboard as a reminder every day, but Verdugo isn't a FA until 2025, and projects to be an above-average regular. This team needs players like that if they are going to try and be competitive while not getting pummeled by the luxury tax.
If he missed a year and a half of critical development time in your scenario, I don't think he would still be projected as an above-average regular anymore. Back injuries scare the crap out of me. Beyond that, if you look at the entire picture, the guy has character questions both on-field and off-field. He was billed as the centerpiece of this deal and it sure seems like they assumed a TON of risk considering how young he is. I think this is the type of risk you can make if you're the Indians trading Lindor or if Bloom was still in Tampa, but this guy is going to get killed in Boston if he's an oft-injured, lazy player replacing Mookie. I'm happy to be wrong, but I'm also not fully convinced that Bloom knows what he got himself into based on his willingness to accept two injured guys for Mookie. He backed off of one of them, but we all knew the medical histories of both guys going into the initial deal.

At the end of the day it's definitely not a great sign that articles like this are being leaked and they still have no idea what's wrong with his back seven months later. Hopefully I'm being overly pessimistic and he ends up playing 150 games with good production.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that to accrue service time you have to be on the game eligible 25-man roster, whereas someone on a long-term DL stint would not be on the 25-man (but would be on the 40-man), and thus not gain a year of service time.
Players accrue service time while on the injured list (15 or 60 day variety). So if Verdugo starts the season on the IL, he'll earn service time and if he's out for the whole year, it is a "wasted" year of his service time from the Red Sox perspective.

I think the only way around the service time thing is if he's already optioned to the minors when he's injured/placed on the IL. I can't imagine if he's not ready to go on Opening Day that the Sox would option Verdugo in order to IL him in Pawtucket and save his service time.
 

Plympton91

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Part of the issue is that the years of control thing is still being underestimated by a lot of people. Even if Verdugo missed the entire season, we would still get more excess value out of his remaining years of control than we would from a single season of arb-eligible Mookie. Look , I love Mookie too, I have his baseball card propped up on my office keyboard as a reminder every day, but Verdugo isn't a FA until 2025, and projects to be an above-average regular. This team needs players like that if they are going to try and be competitive while not getting pummeled by the luxury tax.
He has a mysterious back injury that has prevented him from doing baseball related activities for 7 months. So, I am not underestimating service time at all. I am recognizing that there is an admitted still small, but definitely nonzero, chance that his days as an effective major league player are over. There’s a larger chance that the all-Star promise he showed in the first half of last season is gone forever and he’ll spend his days here as a modern day Glenn Bragg.

Maybe that’s why Verdugo was the one player the Dodgers were not hesitant to give at all. Every other one of their prospects they held onto tooth and nail. Verdugo they threw out there immediately and never wavered in wanting him to be the one they gave up.
 

uncannymanny

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“If it we the regular season, he’d be playing”

“If it were the stretch run, he’d be playing”

This situation is why I haven’t opined on whether this was a good or bad trade yet. The final score on the trade can’t be written until the primary piece proves he’s healthy. If the Red Sox doctors and Bloom were wrong about this it’s a flat out disaster.

I don’t know how you look at a guy who has had 7 months to heal, still isnt right, and you DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT’S WRONG, and take him as the centerpiece of a deal for Mookie Betts and a highly subsidized David Price.

This is the Chris Sale contract all over again. Why do this when you didn’t have to?
Could you point out where they said they “DON‘T EVEN KNOW WHATS WRONG”?

In a deal where the Red Sox blew up the proposal based on a thorough review of player medicals, here we are, on SoSH, complaining about the Red Sox not reviewing medicals.
Or that they didn’t review the medicals?

Here are the relevant portions of the article:

According to major league sources, Verdugo’s availability for Opening Day is in question because of a back injury that contributed to his inability to play for the Dodgers after early August last season.
The issue was known during negotiations between the Red Sox and Dodgers about the deal that sent Mookie Betts and David Price to Los Angeles in exchange for Verdugo and prospects Jeter Downs and Connor Wong.
The Red Sox did not view the issue as a significant long-term concern when they examined Verdugo’s medical history prior to completing the trade. They will wait to make a more precise evaluation of his timetable once he can be seen by their medical staff.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I think the only way around the service time thing is if he's already optioned to the minors when he's injured/placed on the IL. I can't imagine if he's not ready to go on Opening Day that the Sox would option Verdugo in order to IL him in Pawtucket and save his service time.
I assume that would depend on how confident they are that he will be ready soon after the bell rings. If they think it's going to be a matter of a week or two, no reason to option him. But if it's going to be a month or more, why not?
 
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I'd love to see the Red Sox attendance drop about 50% this year. Given that they were willing to give up one of the best players in the game along with a starting pitcher (while still paying half his salary) in return for some players with injury problems makes me think that they wanted to get below the luxury tax threshold come hell or high water. The farm system doesn't have much to offer so they are now signing marginal major-league talent to fill holes.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Interesting position you are taking there.

I expect ticket sales will drop 5-7%, although attendance will drop more than that. Season ticket sales have to be well over 50% of the capacity of the park and those are already booked.
 

JimD

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I'd love to see the Red Sox attendance drop about 50% this year. Given that they were willing to give up one of the best players in the game along with a starting pitcher (while still paying half his salary) in return for some players with injury problems makes me think that they wanted to get below the luxury tax threshold come hell or high water. The farm system doesn't have much to offer so they are now signing marginal major-league talent to fill holes.
Yes, by all means we want to see the team take a major financial hit - I'm sure that shouldn't have any impact at all on offering Mookie a market-rate contract next offseason.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I really hope they're looking for another outfielder regardless of health concerns (either Verdugo or JD) for one simple reason...the presumed starters are all LHH. They're going to need a RHH outfielder. I don't think Chavis, Peraza, and Marcus Wilson really cuts it as RHH outfield depth.
Your wish is Bloom’s command! Pillar makes a nice platoon partner with JBJ in CF and Verdugo has even a little bit of a reverse split. If Benintendi’s improvement vs LHP last year was sustainable we should be fine regarding your fears here.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It is possible. It is also possible that Bloom had one demand to initiate talks and that was the inclusion of a cost-controlled player who is also the idea positional fit for Boston. The back is of course a concern.
 

A Bad Man

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Dec 12, 2016
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but it is interesting that Verdugo's brother declared him 100% healthy in November. Granted, it's his brother, but it does make one wonder if he had a setback.

All that being said, I don't think there is any question that we acquired Verdugo at a discounted rate. If he had just put up a 150 G, 4 WAR season, I don't think we get Jeter Downs.

If we had been projected for, say 92 wins, I could perhaps understand some of the handwringing over trading Mookie. But at something like 88 projected wins with Mookie, I think that even with Verdugo's downside, this was the right move to make.

Edit: here is the link to Verdugo's brother's tweet.
 

JimD

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He has a mysterious back injury that has prevented him from doing baseball related activities for 7 months. So, I am not underestimating service time at all. I am recognizing that there is an admitted still small, but definitely nonzero, chance that his days as an effective major league player are over. There’s a larger chance that the all-Star promise he showed in the first half of last season is gone forever and he’ll spend his days here as a modern day Glenn Bragg.
Of all the hot takes about the Mookie trade, this may be the most sizzling.
 

YTF

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I'd love to see the Red Sox attendance drop about 50% this year. Given that they were willing to give up one of the best players in the game along with a starting pitcher (while still paying half his salary) in return for some players with injury problems makes me think that they wanted to get below the luxury tax threshold come hell or high water. The farm system doesn't have much to offer so they are now signing marginal major-league talent to fill holes.
I on the other hand would love to see the Sox make a push for the playoffs. I'd love to see Sale and Eovaldi contribute in a meaningful way. I'd love to see some carry over from last season's performances out of Rodriguez and Vazquez. I'd like to see Chavis and Moreland healthy for a full season and some of the new acquisitions step in and produce when it matters most. I'd like to see a bullpen that won't have to be as heavily relied on as it was last season with someone stepping up to strengthen the back end. I also want to see Roenicke provide a sense of stability in a time of uncertainty. What I don't want to see is what you want to see. Yes there was a mandate to get below the LTT, mission accomplished. For those who want to continually bitch and moan about this trade, take a breath. Everyone is fretting over the lack of young talent coming up, this trade was a first step toward remedying that WHILE shedding payroll. If you want to keep shitting all over this move why don't you give it at least a couple of years to see how these players progress. You want to compare players that have barely had a sniff at professional baseball, let alone the Major Leagues, to two World Series heroes. One is a former and possible future league MVP. Guys like that are hard to come by, but guys like that also want to explore free agency. It's their right, their reward for excellence. Betts made it clear that he wants to exercise that right. You (collectively) cry about the return here and a portion of you seem content to have paid 43 million to keep Betts for the 2020 season, wave goodbye in September and receive a fourth round pick for the effort and in doing so further delay the replenishing of the farm system that everyone keeps coming back to.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I on the other hand would love to see the Sox make a push for the playoffs. I'd love to see Sale and Eovaldi contribute in a meaningful way. I'd love to see some carry over from last season's performances out of Rodriguez and Vazquez. I'd like to see Chavis and Moreland healthy for a full season and some of the new acquisitions step in and produce when it matters most. I'd like to see a bullpen that won't have to be as heavily relied on as it was last season with someone stepping up to strengthen the back end. I also want to see Roenicke provide a sense of stability in a time of uncertainty. What I don't want to see is what you want to see. Yes there was a mandate to get below the LTT, mission accomplished. For those who want to continually bitch and moan about this trade, take a breath. Everyone is fretting over the lack of young talent coming up, this trade was a first step toward remedying that WHILE shedding payroll. If you want to keep shitting all over this move why don't you give it at least a couple of years to see how these players progress. You want to compare players that have barely had a sniff at professional baseball, let alone the Major Leagues, to two World Series heroes. One is a former and possible future league MVP. Guys like that are hard to come by, but guys like that also want to explore free agency. It's their right, their reward for excellence. Betts made it clear that he wants to exercise that right. You (collectively) cry about the return here and a portion of you seem content to have paid 43 million to keep Betts for the 2020 season, wave goodbye in September and receive a fourth round pick for the effort and in doing so further delay the replenishing of the farm system that everyone keeps coming back to.
Seriously, I never understand fans that actively root against their team, except in rare situations where a full-on tank is necessary (which can be the case in basketball and for smaller-market MLB teams but should never be the case for a big-money MLB team like the Sox).

If the Red Sox suffered a major financial hit this year (they won't), that would only increase the chances that we run into future situations similar to the one the team was in this year - how would that in any way improve the Red Sox going forward?

As I see it there are two primary ways this season could go, both of which have their positives. It's very possible the Sox will be in contention throughout all or most of the year for at least a WC spot, which means they should be good enough to keep fans' attention into September, which in many ways is all I ask of a baseball team unless it is clearly a WS contender. It's also possible the Sox will just suck this year, but the upside of that is that they'll then almost certainly be sellers at the deadline, further restocking their farm system (JBJ and Workman being the most obvious trade candidates, of course, but even Benintendi and JDM could be available depending on how bad the Sox are and what the offers are in return). Either way I actually find myself looking forward to this season quite a bit just because the range of outcomes is currently so large.
 

Teachdad46

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I'm baffled.
Are we saying that the Sox knowingly signed off on a trade in which they knew they were receiving a player who had a known back injury the extent of which was unknown to them?
Know what I mean?
Baffled. Perplexed. Befuddled.
 

brandonchristensen

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I'm baffled.
Are we saying that the Sox knowingly signed off on a trade in which they knew they were receiving a player who had a known back injury the extent of which was unknown to them?
Know what I mean?
Baffled. Perplexed. Befuddled.
Can’t believe we got him.
 

effectivelywild

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I'd love to see the Red Sox attendance drop about 50% this year. Given that they were willing to give up one of the best players in the game along with a starting pitcher (while still paying half his salary) in return for some players with injury problems makes me think that they wanted to get below the luxury tax threshold come hell or high water. The farm system doesn't have much to offer so they are now signing marginal major-league talent to fill holes.
Myself, I'd prefer to see Eovaldi strike Betts out to end the World Series.
 

edoug

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I feel justified in my suspicions by the Speier tweet. Let's hope it all works out for the best.
They needed him anyway. Whether Verdugo is hurt or not. The only two RHH OF are JD and Marcus Wilson, who hasn't played above AA.
 

Plympton91

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I don't think it's so weird. Now we know it's a fracture rather than a herniated disc or some other condition that will linger or recur. Presumably, once the fracture heals, he's good to go and there's a very low risk of re-injury.
Yes, knowing what’s wrong is a big improvement. Now the point made earlier in the thread about the big picture being 5 years of control is more operative.
 

curly2

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Yes, glad to know what the injury is. It seems like the Dodgers doctors didn't do a great job diagnosing it if they truly expected him back at the end of last season.

I hope the Sox play it safe and don't rush him back. I'd much rather have him debut May 1 100 percent healthy than rush him back to play in 40-degree games in April.
 

JCizzle

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Yes, knowing what’s wrong is a big improvement. Now the point made earlier in the thread about the big picture being 5 years of control is more operative.
Yep, the fact that the injury is out there and diagnosed is much more reassuring than some mystery back issue that's been lingering for seven months.
 

SouthernBoSox

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I’m sure it will become available as a link soon enough but Verdugo’s intro Q&A with the media really couldn’t have been handled any better.

He certainly didn’t come off as immature. His answers were interesting and informative.
 

sogasox

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Jul 5, 2014
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I’m sure it will become available as a link soon enough but Verdugo’s intro Q&A with the media really couldn’t have been handled any better.

He certainly didn’t come off as immature. His answers were interesting and informative.
Agreed. Didn't shy away from the other issues and I enjoyed the bit about hitting at Fenway. His mental approach may end up being his greatest asset in light of the circumstances.
 

A Bad Man

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Dec 12, 2016
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Verdugo came off incredibly well to me. Open and honest. That approach will serve him very well in Boston. I found him highly likeable.

Having had the exact same sports injury myself (L5 stress fracture), I can corroborate everything Verdugo said. I can also say that once it healed, it never flared up again.

I'm excited about this trade. Stoked to get a chance to see Downs and Casas in Portland, and looking forward to Verdugo manning right.
 

Green Monster

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Verdugo came off incredibly well to me. Open and honest. That approach will serve him very well in Boston. I found him highly likeable.

Having had the exact same sports injury myself (L5 stress fracture), I can corroborate everything Verdugo said. I can also say that once it healed, it never flared up again.

I'm excited about this trade. Stoked to get a chance to see Downs and Casas in Portland, and looking forward to Verdugo manning right.
Agree 100%....First impression of Verdugo is that he is open and honest. Didn't shy away from anything and answered every question thrown his way. Said the biggest lesson he learned from his off-field issue was ..."be smart about the situations you put yourself into". I think that is highly appropriate. Also, his love for the Red Sox and especially David Ortiz seemed very genuine.
 

Plympton91

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“I plan on being an All-Star...winning gold gloves, silver sluggers, and all that.”

Like the confidence.