Alex Verdugo, new Red Sox star!

bohous

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What did she accuse Verdugo of, again? Underage drinking and videoing a fight between 3 girls he barely knew?

Verdugo’s actions are cringeworthy. The level of overkill in this thread is actually frightening.
I think you are being disingenuous here. This wasn't a fight between a couple of women who were squaring off at a party over a spilled beer. If they videotaped that and posted it on World Star or something, that would be cringeworthy. This was the beating of a defenseless teenager by two older women (how much older we don't know). But that's really the crux of it. Also, the only one who was "barley known" was the victim. In one of the articles one of the women was described as dating one of the players.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Has anyone read the police report referenced in the Quiroli and Sports Illustrated articles?
I tried looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it. It sounds as though SI got it and decided not to publish it since it named the players and no charges were brought.
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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This was the beating of a defenseless teenager by two older women (how much older we don't know). But that's really the crux of it.
We don't know for sure but the very first post in the thread links to an article/blog post that says the two women were a "few years older". So presumably 19 or 20.
 

pdub

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Well, this is a damn shame. I was actually fine with getting Verdugo because I think highly of his talent, but this is all new to me. What an absolute bummer to trade an amazing and loved player for a lazy asshole. Ugh!!!
 

jon abbey

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If this falls through and BOS does not end up with Verdugo, I am giving Laddie and the rest of this thread like 7% credit, well done (possibly).
 

InsideTheParker

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If this falls through and BOS does not end up with Verdugo, I am giving Laddie and the rest of this thread like 7% credit, well done (possibly).
Yeah, I'm sure that Yankees fans are eager for the deal to fall through. Either way, they probably get to face Price and if the deal falls through, there is no way the Sox will sign either Mr. Betts or any other top-level player the following year. Yeah, good job, Laddie. :confused:
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Take this out of a sports team for a moment.

You're a supervisor. You get a credible report that something of this nature has been committed by 2-3 members of your staff. Do you pass the buck upstairs, or do you take responsibility for the behavior of those you supervise and contact authorities on your own?

"I passed along what I knew to my superiors and advised the victim to do something about it" wouldn't help me sleep better at night
An organization as big and well-resourced as the Dodgers, especially one whose employees are disproportionately young men, should have sexual misconduct policies and protocols so clear and well reinforced that staff can recite them in their sleep. Kapler should not have had to think about what to do. If he did, that's an organizational failure, not just his. 2015 is not that long ago.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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An organization as big and well-resourced as the Dodgers, especially one whose employees are disproportionately young men, should have sexual misconduct policies and protocols so clear and well reinforced that staff can recite them in their sleep. Kapler should not have had to think about what to do. If he did, that's an organizational failure, not just his. 2015 is not that long ago.
They could have spent months defining "policies and protocols" and they still wouldn't have anticipated that a player might record a video of two women beating up a teenager.

What should Kapler have done?
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, I'm sure that Yankees fans are eager for the deal to fall through. Either way, they probably get to face Price and if the deal falls through, there is no way the Sox will sign either Mr. Betts or any other top-level player the following year. Yeah, good job, Laddie. :confused:
FWIW, not really rooting for anything here. My post was solely about the (hopeful?) potential power of a message board to influence a team, but it's a moot point as it looks pretty likely that Verdugo will be traded to BOS in the next day or two.
 

Plympton91

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An organization as big and well-resourced as the Dodgers, especially one whose employees are disproportionately young men, should have sexual misconduct policies and protocols so clear and well reinforced that staff can recite them in their sleep. Kapler should not have had to think about what to do. If he did, that's an organizational failure, not just his. 2015 is not that long ago.
What would sexual misconduct policies have to do with Verdugo? He didn’t assault anyone.

Should Urias also never play baseball again? After all, it appears he sized up a combustible situation and left early on. If he had simply called the cops and reported that underage drinking was going on at the hotel, the whole night would have turned out differently. What a jerk. He should be punished too, for failure to report a crime in progress that he obviously knew was happening.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
What would sexual misconduct policies have to do with Verdugo? He didn’t assault anyone.
The question that I was responding to wasn't particularly about Verdugo. It was about what Kapler should have done when the girl and/or her grandmother (not sure I understand the sequence there) contacted him about the assault on the girl. And my point is that framing this as a moral quandary for him is basically letting the Dodgers off the hook.
 

Cokes311

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They could have spent months defining "policies and protocols" and they still wouldn't have anticipated that a player might record a video of two women beating up a teenager.

What should Kapler have done?
it's such a mess that we even have to ask this question

he should have gone to the goddamn police
 

SouthernBoSox

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it's such a mess that we even have to ask this question

he should have gone to the goddamn police
I don’t remember the exact timeline of events but it is important to note that the police couldn’t open a full investigation because the victim refused to cooperate with them.
 

Cokes311

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I don’t remember the exact timeline of events but it is important to note that the police couldn’t open a full investigation because the victim refused to cooperate with them.
i'm pretty sure this was after kapler ran it up the chain of command

but also she's a minor, and there were witnesses (edit: and cell phone video!), you don't need her cooperation to investigate and press charges
 

E5 Yaz

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i'm pretty sure this was after kapler ran it up the chain of command

but also she's a minor, and there were witnesses (edit: and cell phone video!), you don't need her cooperation to investigate and press charges
And this is what I was trying to get at earlier in the difference between professional responsibility to the Dodgers and a moral obligation as a human being.

If nothing was being done, then the only choice is to be proactive and move the process forward yourself. Part of the reason that it always has been difficult for victims to come forward or press charges is the presence of those with knowledge of a crime who refuse to do nothing. Coupler's subsequent online comments about the assault, and such events in general, paint a picture of someone satisfied with doing the minimum required and walking away.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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it's such a mess that we even have to ask this question

he should have gone to the goddamn police
Would the police have considered someone recording a video of two women beating up a teenage girl to have been a crime? If they had arrested Verdugo, what would the charges have been?
 

dhappy42

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What did she accuse Verdugo of, again? Underage drinking and videoing a fight between 3 girls he barely knew?
Has anyone named Verdugo is the player who videoed the fight? How severe was the fight?

Verdugo’s actions are cringeworthy.
Not defending Verdugo (and don’t want him in the team,) but what exactly were his actions?
 

E5 Yaz

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Would the police have considered someone recording a video of two women beating up a teenage girl to have been a crime? If they had arrested Verdugo, what would the charges have been?
The assault itself is a crime. That act itself should have been reported, along with that of the player who did assault the teenager.

This isn't just about Verdugo
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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The assault itself is a crime. That act itself should have been reported, along with that of the player who did assault the teenager.

This isn't just about Verdugo
Kapler wasn't a witness to the assault and if he didn't have access to the video, I doubt if the police would have taken any action. If they did, their interest would likely have been limited to the women that assaulted the victim.

The assault by the player was not known by Kapler during the time when he was in contact with the victim and her grandmother and I believe that by the the time he became aware of it, the victim had already contacted the police.
 

dhappy42

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In all likelihood accessory to criminal assault and battery of a minor
Does it matter how old the two women who beat the 17-year-old were? Does it matter whether the player who filmed the beating knew how old they all were? Does it matter how severe the beating was?
 

Plympton91

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In all likelihood accessory to criminal assault and battery of a minor
Why? If I’m at a party and a fight breaks out, you’re saying I am at risk of being arrested and charged with a crime unless I jump in to try to stop it?

That’s ridiculous. Breaking up a fight entails significant risk. We can not be holding people to a fiduciary standard in fights among strangers.
 

Cokes311

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Does it matter how old the two women who beat the 17-year-old were? Does it matter whether the player who filmed the beating knew how old they all were? Does it matter how severe the beating was?
the short answer to each of those questions is no, i think. ages of the women doing the assaulting don't matter. assault of a minor is dependent on the victim's age, not the relative ages of those involved.

honestly, him being present for the assault could probably result in being charged with assault outright, because he was, in a manner, a participant of the crime

lack of moral character from Kapler/the Dodgers and an CJ system that generally doesn't give a shit about women are the only reasons no one is in jail for this. it should have been an open and shut case, even without the victim's cooperation.
 

dhappy42

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the short answer to each of those questions is no, i think. ages of the women doing the assaulting don't matter. assault of a minor is dependent on the victim's age, not the relative ages of those involved.
I'd think the person witnessing the assault has to know the person being assaulted is a minor. If this is a case of a 20-year-old punching a 17-year-old, that might not be the case.

honestly, him being present for the assault could probably result in being charged with assault outright, because he was, in a manner, a participant of the crime.
In what way?

Do we know who "him" is in this? Baldwin or Verdugo? I assume it's Verdugo because the victim names Baldwin as the one who sexually assaulted her so there's no reason she wouldn't name him as the one who videoed the fight.

lack of moral character from Kapler/the Dodgers and an CJ system that generally doesn't give a shit about women are the only reasons no one is in jail for this. it should have been an open and shut case, even without the victim's cooperation.
Based on the articles, there are three alleged crimes, only one of them "open-and-shut."

1. providing alcohol to a minor -- not clear who did this (the players were underaged too,) a common misdemeanor, so probably not worth a criminal prosecution
2. sexual assault of a minor -- the victim says Baldwin touched her breasts and vagina, under her clothes, without her consent -- very difficult to prove in court
3. battery -- the victim says "the other two girls began beating her up." (Quote from the Quiroli article, not the girl.) -- easy to prove because of video and bruises

The Dodgers clearly failed to handle this correctly, but nothing I've read so far suggests the Glendale police did.
 

Plympton91

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why are you trying so hard to find an out for this kid?
because he did absolutely nothing criminally wrong even if you take the worst read of it.

taping and posting it is morally wrong; not jumping in may be unchivalrous. But you know, chivalry was a social construct, not a legal one.
 
Sep 29, 2017
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why are you trying so hard to find an out for this kid?
Why are you trying so hard to lock him up? You may not like him on a personal level and no one is going to ever extricate Mookie's amazingness to this kids lack of it, but really as far as you know he is not actually a criminal.
 

Cokes311

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there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he was either present for the assault or affiliated in some way with those who committed it, both of which are crimes. that's more than enough reason to investigate, even if you think the victim isn't going to be cooperative.

if he wasn't, then why did the dodgers make such concerted efforts not to go to the police? Baldwin wasn't enough of a prospect to protect like that.
 

Rovin Romine

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Does it matter how old the two women who beat the 17-year-old were? Does it matter whether the player who filmed the beating knew how old they all were? Does it matter how severe the beating was?
Legally, no.*

Morally, yes.

*Filming a fight between perfect strangers would likely be nothing at all, from the perspective of criminal liability. (Depending on AZ law). Here, we only have an indication he filmed a fight. Overall reporting isn't detailed, however.

Caveat is that some actions, in some jurisdictions, might be criminal. For example, encouraging someone to batter a minor might be child endangerment. Directing them to do so would be accessory liability. Failing to report an assault and battery on a minor might be something, depending. . .and so on and so forth. So yes, the particulars matter, but here, nothing we know seems to ring the bell of potential criminal liability.
 

Rovin Romine

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there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he was either present for the assault or affiliated in some way with those who committed it, both of which are crimes. that's more than enough reason to investigate, even if you think the victim isn't going to be cooperative.

if he wasn't, then why did the dodgers make such concerted efforts not to go to the police? Baldwin wasn't enough of a prospect to protect like that.
No. They are not crimes.
 

EnochRoot

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Feb 7, 2020
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Legally, no.*

Morally, yes.

*Filming a fight between perfect strangers would likely be nothing at all, from the perspective of criminal liability. (Depending on AZ law). Here, we only have an indication he filmed a fight. Overall reporting isn't detailed, however.

Caveat is that some actions, in some jurisdictions, might be criminal. For example, encouraging someone to batter a minor might be child endangerment. Directing them to do so would be accessory liability. Failing to report an assault and battery on a minor might be something, depending. . .and so on and so forth. So yes, the particulars matter, but here, nothing we know seems to ring the bell of potential criminal liability.
Depending on jurisdiction, posting a video of someone being beaten can be construed as a form of cyberbullying, online harassment, etc.

ETA: Cyberbullying laws by State (AZ is a criminal-liability state)
 

lexrageorge

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Watching and videotaping a couple of young women (who were apparently strangers to Verdugo) fight seems like a big nothingburger. Posting it was crass and showed lack of judgment, but that's hardly the major felony it's being made out to be.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Merely taping a fight you had nothing to do with and declining to intervene is not a crime. Unless the person is a protected person you have a duty to protect by virtue of a relationship or some prior conduct that put the person in the vulnerable position.

Posting it theoretically could be but assuming the victim is clothed probably not.

It would not take much to go from mere bystanding to encouraging, though. “Turn this way” or “hit her again” so you can get it on tape is almost certainly a crime. Even “smile” probably is.

”Go beat her up so I can tape it” is likely two felonies. And many things in between may or may not be crimes.

My problem here is that this does not sound like a simple case of a bystander coming across something he did not play any role in. Seems like there is not enough for a prosecution but this is not my personal “can I root for this guy“ standard. If Verdugo was associating with the attackers and the assaulter before the filming and while the girl was around, I think the likelihood he was involved in helping creating a scene where bad shit happened to an underage runaway girl seems likely to me.

Any undue focus on whether he said magic words to make it a conspiracy or was an accomplice seems like ivory tower lawyering that obscures the issue.
 

jmanny24

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Watching and videotaping a couple of young women (who were apparently strangers to Verdugo) fight seems like a big nothingburger. Posting it was crass and showed lack of judgment, but that's hardly the major felony it's being made out to be.
Suddenly a lot of people in ivory towers (not just here but everywhere) maybe because they don't want Mookie dealt or don't like the return but this expresses my thoughts exactly, thank you.
 

Rovin Romine

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Depending on jurisdiction, posting a video of someone being beaten can be construed as a form of cyberbullying, online harassment, etc.

ETA: Cyberbullying laws by State (AZ is a criminal-liability state)
Well, I'm not barred in AZ, and caselaw can strongly affect written statutes. However, clicking on the link you provided gets us to: https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/02921.htm

I don't see anything in there that matches our fact pattern. Again, caselaw may be contrary, and there may be other laws in AZ that apply. But they'd probably be in the minority of states if they did have something that applied.
 

shepard50

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I agree with DDB.

I don't want this kid in the uniform; just like I don't want Ozuna or Chapman in the uniform. There is enough moral culpability here, and no ownership of it, to turn me right off. And for me it is DOUBLY egregious that Nick Francona was the only one who attempted to do the right thing and ended up blackballed by the Dodgers, and eventually, MLB.

Entitled young athletes who have their actions covered up and "handled" end up as entitled grown men who expect this is the normal course of behaviour. And the cover ups are as much, or more, about protecting the "product' that is the player, as they are about legal culpability, so let's not whistle past that graveyard.
 
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SoxAgent25

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Jul 18, 2005
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there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he was either present for the assault or affiliated in some way with those who committed it, both of which are crimes.
I know I post here less often less often than the planet gets the treat of a super blood wolf moon, but I’m posting now because this is flat out, unequivocally, 100% wrong. No matter how right you want it to be, it’s wrong. We don’t even need to get Matlock on the case. It’d be a 6 minute episode.

Imagine if we had a dollar for every crime a person we were “affiliated” with committed...I guess we could all chip in to keep Mookie in Boston for the duration of whatever length of career he wants!
 

bohous

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Watching and videotaping a couple of young women (who were apparently strangers to Verdugo) fight seems like a big nothingburger. Posting it was crass and showed lack of judgment, but that's hardly the major felony it's being made out to be.
We are going in circles here. This argument was made before and I'll say again, this was not simply a fight between strangers. This was 2 women ganging up to beat a defenseless teenager, which is the problem and takes it to a level above "crass". Nobody is saying Verdugo himself committed a felony, or even that he needs to be formally punished based on what we know. Many of us are just saying this shows a lack of character and not the kind of guy we want on the team.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I agree with DDB.

I don't want this kid in the uniform; just like I don't want Ozuna or Chapman in the uniform. There is enough moral culpability here, and no ownership of it, to turn me right off. And for me it is DOUBLY egregious that Nick Francona was the only one who attempted to do the right thing and ended up blackballed by the Dodgers, and eventually, MLB.

Entitled young athletes who have their actions covered up and "handled" end uyp as entitled grown men who expect this is the normal course of behaviour.And teh cover ups are as much, or more, about protecting the "product' that is the player, as they are about legal culpability, so let's not whistle past that graveyard.
I hate these dilemmas but I guess that is just sports in 2020. Just have to find a way to deal with cognitive dissonance in the bottom of the ninth when he is facing Chapman. Or hope more information comes out that resolves the situation one way or the other I guess. Maybe if and when the deal is announced he will make a statement of some sort that at least adds some clarity.
 

Green Monster

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I posted this in another thread, but its probably more relevant here....

I don't know Alex Verdugo. I have never met him. However, I was young once, and like most people, I did plenty of things that I would never dream of doing today. Things that I am not proud of and wish I had done differently. I am sure Alex Verdugo is no different. If this trade happens and Alex Verdugo is a Red Sox outfielder, I will form my opinion of him from that point forward.....Does he bust his butt? Is he a good teammate? Does he conduct himself respectfully on and off the field? Does he bleed Red Sox red? If these answers are Yes, I will root for him and cheer for him just like I have for Mookie. I encourage others to do the same.......It is not Alex Verdugo's fault that the Red Sox are trading Mookie Betts.
 

EnochRoot

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Feb 7, 2020
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Well, I'm not barred in AZ, and caselaw can strongly affect written statutes. However, clicking on the link you provided gets us to: https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/02921.htm

I don't see anything in there that matches our fact pattern. Again, caselaw may be contrary, and there may be other laws in AZ that apply. But they'd probably be in the minority of states if they did have something that applied.
Those are the legal definitions of harassment, not necessarily online harassment, in particular of a minor. This is a relatively new (sub?)-field of law, and case law obviously can become precedent. Of course, IANAL.
 

RGREELEY33

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I've steered clear of this thread until now with the trade being done, but it seems to be a LOT of overreaction based on very limited information. The OP posted a blog that didn't name Verdugo as playing any specific role in the fight or the sexual assault, and there has been nothing specifically stating that he was involved or even present for either. It seems that he is a cocky, douchey kid which seems to be creating some of the reaction, but I'm not sure why there is such a rush to judgement on almost no specific or verified information. While he certainly seems to have used very poor judgement to have been partying with the people he was partying with, calls for his release etc. seem to be fairly ridiculous.
 

Plympton91

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I've steered clear of this thread until now with the trade being done, but it seems to be a LOT of overreaction based on very limited information. The OP posted a blog that didn't name Verdugo as playing any specific role in the fight or the sexual assault, and there has been nothing specifically stating that he was involved or even present for either. It seems that he is a cocky, douchey kid which seems to be creating some of the reaction, but I'm not sure why there is such a rush to judgement on almost no specific or verified information. While he certainly seems to have used very poor judgement to have been partying with the people he was partying with, calls for his release etc. seem to be fairly ridiculous.
Unless he provided the alcohol or egged on the fight, this is exactly where I am. And it seems like the older girls were entirely the instigators of the fight, and given the discription of the relative ages is the group, also likely provided the alcohol. There were three bad guys that night. Baldwin if he did what he was accused of and the two older girls.
 

Marciano490

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Unless he provided the alcohol or egged on the fight, this is exactly where I am. And it seems like the older girls were entirely the instigators of the fight, and given the discription of the relative ages is the group, also likely provided the alcohol. There were three bad guys that night. Baldwin if he did what he was accused of and the two older girls.
Francona said Verdugo recorded and posted the fight. Why are you lecturing others on not jumping to conclusions then making definitive pronouncements like you know anything?
 

high cheese

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So we trade Mookie Betts, a guy who could be the face of MLB - and now probably will be in LA - for a guy who was party to a heinous sexual assault. Making excuses for his part in the event is beyond my scope. Trading for him? I don't even begin to get it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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there has been nothing specifically stating that he was involved or even present for either.
Francona said it was his understanding that Verdugo was the one who taped the beating and posted it to Snapchat.

That is either true or it isn’t. If true it goes beyond young and dumb or general douchebaggery and also doesn’t require too much of a leap to assume a worse role. He wasn’t just walking by the motel room door when a fight broke broke out.

If Francona is wrong then there is room for more nuance.

But that is where I am at, at least. The Francona claim took this out of the general blog vagueness for me. That and the fact that he appears to have been mentioned in the police report. Or at least there are indications he was.
 

Plympton91

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Francona said Verdugo recorded and posted the fight. Why are you lecturing others on not jumping to conclusions then making definitive pronouncements like you know anything?
Yeah, and if he did that’s not how a hero like you would react I guess. If he’d gone in and physically wrestled the girls off the younger one, they probably would have accused him of assaulting them and then all the the noise in this thread would be about how he hit two poor defenseless women.

He didn’t rape anybody. He didn’t hit anybody. He was a drunk teenager at a hotel party who reacted poorly. Let’s professionally execute him, right?

He should have done what Urias did and just leave.