Alex Verdugo, new Red Sox star!

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
42,711
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is how the victim knew Verdugo posted it to SnapChat. After she was finished being beat up, Verdugo said, "Got the whole thing on video and now I'm going to post it on my SnapChat account"?
Are you unfamiliar with social media? Like tagging, screenshotting, friends lists and whatnot?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
28,484
AZ
I'd expect the average AZ barred attorney with actual criminal law experience would probably laugh at the above. I don't even need to know AZ law to say that as due process requires a mens rea (guilty mind) for a criminal conviction to attach in most circumstances.

Here, the news reporting is that (per the victim, via the police report) Verdugo was not present during the sexual assault, by all accounts seemed unaware of it, and, in essence, interrupted it by returning to the room, along with 2 other people.

I don't see any way that gets him into accomplice territory. The guy can get deep-sixed by the fan base for being a tool. But Sheryl Ring's legal analysis seems to be fairly far out there on a slim branch, no matter how valid her other points might be.
She is misreading the key case. State v. McNair holds that proximity is a factor that can be taken into account by a jury in determining whether the accomplice had sufficient intent, but the case makes clear mere proximity is not sufficient for imposition of accomplice liability.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
Are you unfamiliar with social media? Like tagging, screenshotting, friends lists and whatnot?
So the victim later checked Verdugo's social media? Didn't she meet him just that night? She met 4 guys that night, drank a half bottle of vodka, was sexually assaulted, beaten up and still remembered his name?
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
42,711
So the victim later checked Verdugo's social media? Didn't she meet him just that night? She met 4 guys that night, drank a half bottle of vodka, was sexually assaulted, beaten up and still remembered his name?
She was connected to the two women who recruited her through Facebook. Also, most of the time when you meet someone out if you’re going to hang you swap IG or Snapchat info. Seems to happen at least as often as phone numbers now.
 

CR67dream

Dope
Dope
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
5,086
I'm going home
In the interest of transparency, I just removed a first post from a lurker that does not come close to the standards we have here on several levels. Thanks to everyone who is doing their best to stay level headed.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
She was connected to the two women who recruited her through Facebook. Also, most of the time when you meet someone out if you’re going to hang you swap IG or Snapchat info. Seems to happen at least as often as phone numbers now.
The entire story is bizarre. They invite her, through Facebook, to go with them to meet some ballplayers, get her drunk, beat her up and ask her to leave. Why? Two women beating up a drunk girl lying on a bed is really hard to believe. Are they gang members?

There is no information about how Verdugo and Baldwin knew these two women. The article refers to a police report and photographs that weren't attached.

Filming women beating a young girl is extremely deviant behavior and the All Heels on Deck story, alone, isn't enough for me to believe Verdugo did so.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
42,711
The entire story is bizarre. They invite her, through Facebook, to go with them to meet some ballplayers, get her drunk, beat her up and ask her to leave. Why? Two women beating up a drunk girl lying on a bed is really hard to believe. Are they gang members?

There is no information about how Verdugo and Baldwin knew these two women. The article refers to a police report and photographs that weren't attached.

Filming women beating a young girl is extremely deviant behavior and the All Heels on Deck story, alone, isn't enough for me to believe Verdugo did so.
Is it?

Lots of people leverage sex and access for money. These two women knew at least one of the ballplayers. They recruited this girl with a tenuous living situation thinking it’d win them favor with at least one of them.

But, she got drunk and started throwing up, ruining their plan, so they beat her up because they’re scummy low end traffickers and at least one of the ball players recorded and posted it.

I don’t know what you know about Verdugo and Baldwin personally that makes you think the entire sketchy situation unfolded because of the latter.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
Is it?

Lots of people leverage sex and access for money. These two women knew at least one of the ballplayers. They recruited this girl with a tenuous living situation thinking it’d win them favor with at least one of them.

But, she got drunk and started throwing up, ruining their plan, so they beat her up because they’re scummy low end traffickers and at least one of the ball players recorded and posted it.


I don’t know what you know about Verdugo and Baldwin personally that makes you think the entire sketchy situation unfolded because of the latter.
I checked the WAPO story on the incident and the first thing the victim did was send an e-mail to Kapler. Wouldn't she call the police? If she was hoping for some type of payoff that would give her incentive to embellish her story a bit.

It's sad that she was, and still is, in a horrible situation, but I would want some collaboration of her story before damning Verdugo.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
42,711
I checked the WAPO story on the incident and the first thing the victim did was send an e-mail to Kapler. Wouldn't she call the police? If she was hoping for some type of payoff that would give her incentive to embellish her story a bit.

It's sad that she was, and still is, in a horrible situation, but I would want some collaboration of her story before damning Verdugo.
Would she? I don’t know. I’ve never been a sexual assault victim, fortunately, so I’m not sure what I’d do. Especially if I had left home and didn’t want to be dumped back in a situation I was trying to avoid.

Or, if I’d been underage drinking.

I get we root for the Sox and Verdugo might yet wear the jersey, but I never understand the need to try to poke holes in the victim’s story while cautioning others from damning the bad actors.

It’s the same story, almost always, any time anyone alleges rape or sexual assault. Not here, in particular, but generally. Especially if the accused is rich or famous. And, to the extent it prevents people from feeling comfortable coming forward and emboldens predators, maybe it’s an instinct we should try to curb.

Unless you have special insight into how 17 year old girls should react in the aftermath of a sexual assault and what makes sense in your mind. Otherwise, I’m not sure why you’re hesitant to besmirch Verdugo’s reputation but cool saying she was maybe embellishing for a payout.

Or, you know, lying about being sexually assault for money. That old bugaboo.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
15,717
I checked the WAPO story on the incident and the first thing the victim did was send an e-mail to Kapler. Wouldn't she call the police? If she was hoping for some type of payoff that would give her incentive to embellish her story a bit.

It's sad that she was, and still is, in a horrible situation, but I would want some collaboration of her story before damning Verdugo.
She didn't. She called her grandmother, who then emailed Kapler.

As to the idea that a 17 year old teen runaway is going to go to the police.... I mean, that would not be my first assumption. There is a reason that runaways, homeless and drug addicted (not saying she's the latter 2) people are the most victimized, they aren't likely to go to police, and police generally don't put much effort into investigating crimes against them. Add in the abysmal record for sexual assault investigations, and no it is not at all surprising that she called her grandmother instead of the police.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
She didn't. She called her grandmother, who then emailed Kapler.

As to the idea that a 17 year old teen runaway is going to go to the police.... I mean, that would not be my first assumption. There is a reason that runaways, homeless and drug addicted (not saying she's the latter 2) people are the most victimized, they aren't likely to go to police, and police generally don't put much effort into investigating crimes against them. Add in the abysmal record for sexual assault investigations, and no it is not at all surprising that she called her grandmother instead of the police.
According to the WAPO story she was the first person to contact Kapler:


Posters seem to be putting the "Blame the Victim" label on me, but I'm not. About 100% of the case against Verdugo is based on her statements. How can we be sure she's being completely honest? I don't know if she's lying, but I don't see how people can be so sure she is telling the truth.
 

barbed wire Bob

crippled by fear
SoSH Member
She didn't. She called her grandmother, who then emailed Kapler.

As to the idea that a 17 year old teen runaway is going to go to the police.... I mean, that would not be my first assumption. There is a reason that runaways, homeless and drug addicted (not saying she's the latter 2) people are the most victimized, they aren't likely to go to police, and police generally don't put much effort into investigating crimes against them. Add in the abysmal record for sexual assault investigations, and no it is not at all surprising that she called her grandmother instead of the police.
According to the WAPO story she was the first person to contact Kapler:


Posters seem to be putting the "Blame the Victim" label on me, but I'm not. About 100% of the case against Verdugo is based on her statements. How can we be sure she's being completely honest? I don't know if she's lying, but I don't see how people can be so sure she is telling the truth.
It appears you are both right. From the WaPo story:
The day after the alleged assault, on Feb. 23, 2015, the girl’s grandmother emailed Kapler. She initially had called the Hampton Inn, according to a police report, and the hotel connected her with a Dodgers official, who directed the grandmother to Kapler.
In the email, which the grandmother later provided to police, she explained that she had just received a troubling phone call from her 17-year-old granddaughter, who had run away from home six months ago. Her granddaughter had been at a party the night before with two women and two Dodgers players, the grandmother wrote.
That same day, the 17-year-old sent her email to Kapler, detailing her version of the events.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,396
How could they not have known about this incident? Did they think it would fly under the radar?
In fairness they couldn’t know the extent of his involvement given the lengths that a shitstained organization went through to cover it up.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,396
Would she? I don’t know. I’ve never been a sexual assault victim, fortunately, so I’m not sure what I’d do. Especially if I had left home and didn’t want to be dumped back in a situation I was trying to avoid.
As someone that’s been the victim of domestic violence I can tell you the reaction of abuse victims isn’t as straightforward as others like to imagine.

Normally I don’t even have a flight response (it was the one benefit of growing up fat, you can never outrun trouble so you always have to face it), but I can tell you that I spent the better part of a year in terror, and when I finally got myself out of the situation I absolutely didn’t go to the police, but basically hid for a year while my abuser’s life unraveled and he got jailed for something else leaving me free and clear.

If you were to ask any of my friends how I’d react in a situation like that they’d give you a completely different answer based on what they knew of me. But even I reacted badly and what people would consider illogically in extreme circumstances. It just fucking happens.
 

trs

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
Aug 19, 2010
93
Madrid
As someone that’s been the victim of domestic violence I can tell you the reaction of abuse victims isn’t as straightforward as others like to imagine.

Normally I don’t even have a flight response (it was the one benefit of growing up fat, you can never outrun trouble so you always have to face it), but I can tell you that I spent the better part of a year in terror, and when I finally got myself out of the situation I absolutely didn’t go to the police, but basically hid for a year while my abuser’s life unraveled and he got jailed for something else leaving me free and clear.

If you were to ask any of my friends how I’d react in a situation like that they’d give you a completely different answer based on what they knew of me. But even I reacted badly and what people would consider illogically in extreme circumstances. It just fucking happens.
I am so sorry this happened to you.

As this testament demonstrates, perhaps it's time we stop expecting that after devastating and traumatic experiences people act rationally and predictably according to societal expectations, and when they don't, get suspicious about ulterior motives. It's tiresome to hear/read and seems to be mostly an attempt to defend people who don't deserve it under the guise of equal protection or something like that.

Perhaps this strays too far from baseball, but in my mind, whether Verdugo filmed people he knew assaulting a 17 year old is the ultimate question. It's a much different scenario than the kids racing to film 2 other kids fighting that they perhaps don't know and I assume that one of them wasn't on the verge of passing out and vulnerable in every sense of the word. As someone else mentioned, what Verdugo did was sociopathic if not criminal (don't know the laws on that). For me, if the alleged story is true, any debate on whether the Sox should back out of the trade seems almost insulting -- Verdugo is not a Red Sox, that's it, any other discussion about swapping out another prospect or getting back Betts becomes dirty.
 

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,856
As someone that’s been the victim of domestic violence I can tell you the reaction of abuse victims isn’t as straightforward as others like to imagine.

Normally I don’t even have a flight response (it was the one benefit of growing up fat, you can never outrun trouble so you always have to face it), but I can tell you that I spent the better part of a year in terror, and when I finally got myself out of the situation I absolutely didn’t go to the police, but basically hid for a year while my abuser’s life unraveled and he got jailed for something else leaving me free and clear.

If you were to ask any of my friends how I’d react in a situation like that they’d give you a completely different answer based on what they knew of me. But even I reacted badly and what people would consider illogically in extreme circumstances. It just fucking happens.
I'm sorry to hear you had to go through this. Hoping all is well.
I am so sorry this happened to you.

As this testament demonstrates, perhaps it's time we stop expecting that after devastating and traumatic experiences people act rationally and predictably according to societal expectations, and when they don't, get suspicious about ulterior motives. It's tiresome to hear/read and seems to be mostly an attempt to defend people who don't deserve it under the guise of equal protection or something like that.

Perhaps this strays too far from baseball, but in my mind, whether Verdugo filmed people he knew assaulting a 17 year old is the ultimate question. It's a much different scenario than the kids racing to film 2 other kids fighting that they perhaps don't know and I assume that one of them wasn't on the verge of passing out and vulnerable in every sense of the word. As someone else mentioned, what Verdugo did was sociopathic if not criminal (don't know the laws on that). For me, if the alleged story is true, any debate on whether the Sox should back out of the trade seems almost insulting -- Verdugo is not a Red Sox, that's it, any other discussion about swapping out another prospect or getting back Betts becomes dirty.
This captures my feelings as well. Except for the last line. I'm not sure what you think the Sox should do. Other than stay away from Verdugo (which I've alreadygiven my opinion).
 
Last edited:

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
10,225
Miami (oh, Miami!)
As someone that’s been the victim of domestic violence I can tell you the reaction of abuse victims isn’t as straightforward as others like to imagine.
I'm sorry to hear you went through this; but glad you can enlighten others.

As this testament demonstrates, perhaps it's time we stop expecting that after devastating and traumatic experiences people act rationally and predictably according to societal expectations, and when they don't, get suspicious about ulterior motives. It's tiresome to hear/read and seems to be mostly an attempt to defend people who don't deserve it under the guise of equal protection or something like that.

Perhaps this strays too far from baseball, but in my mind, whether Verdugo filmed people he knew assaulting a 17 year old is the ultimate question. It's a much different scenario than the kids racing to film 2 other kids fighting that they perhaps don't know and I assume that one of them wasn't on the verge of passing out and vulnerable in every sense of the word. As someone else mentioned, what Verdugo did was sociopathic if not criminal (don't know the laws on that). For me, if the alleged story is true, any debate on whether the Sox should back out of the trade seems almost insulting -- Verdugo is not a Red Sox, that's it, any other discussion about swapping out another prospect or getting back Betts becomes dirty.
I personally get the not-reporting-it-immediately thing, to the extent I have to remind myself that other people see that as significant.

The other side of the coin is that there are false reports of sexual assault and other crimes. Not staggeringly huge numbers, but try telling that to someone who is facing a conviction and incarceration because of it.

Probing the veracity of what happened does not have to be disrespectful, nor does one have to leap to conclusions. In this particular circumstance, I'd say the late reporting of the sexual assault is not so much a red flag as a light yellow one, well within the scope of normal. However, there are also elements that suggest enough pressure to false report or exagerate in some way. (Re: the sexual assault, not the physical assault.) The news reporting suggests the girl only spoke out about it after she faced consequences from her shoplifting charge, but again, not entirely unusual. I can tell you that suddenly being seen as a victim in a greater crime can sometimes triggers different treatment (especially if one is a minor), and some kids are savvy/scared enough to know and use that. Or they're stupid enough to believe other kids and have a hopelessly wrong expectation about what will occur if they do report. It's a spectrum.

If I were involved in the case, I'd dig further and look at the details of the initial contact with the Dodgers, and the details of the initial reporting to the police, as well as the girl's recent history. Sometimes these things aren't as easy as just obtaining a single suggestive fact.

Not that all this isn't an aside re: Verdugo. And the physical assault, which all apparently agree happened.

What is lacking are details on the physical assault. Again, these things have degrees of wrongness to them. Did the older girls flailing smack at the younger girl a couple of times while yelling at her for puking on the bed? Was it a full fledged beat-down, an attempt to do real harm? Reporting is light on this. It's one thing to snapchat the former, and another to snapchat the latter. I'd hesitate to label Verdugo a sociopath until I knew what happened. (Not that most 19 year olds aren't a touch sociopathic.)
 

trs

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
Aug 19, 2010
93
Madrid
I'm sorry to hear you had to go through this. Hoping all is well.

This captures my feelings as well. Except for the last line. I'm not sure what you think the Sox should do. Other than stay away from Verdugo (which I've alreadygiven my opinion).
Yeah I was not very clear, basically just saying that there really shouldn't be a discussion about what to do with Verdugo, just stay away. I suppose I was reacting to some of the comments about how these new potential revelations might affect the deal, for me it would just make it so that the Sox don't take Verdugo, regardless of whether they can back out of the deal or not based on this new information. You just release him.
 

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,856
Yeah I was not very clear, basically just saying that there really shouldn't be a discussion about what to do with Verdugo, just stay away. I suppose I was reacting to some of the comments about how these new potential revelations might affect the deal, for me it would just make it so that the Sox don't take Verdugo, regardless of whether they can back out of the deal or not based on this new information. You just release him.
It might be embarrassing for them but I totally agree.
 

trs

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
Aug 19, 2010
93
Madrid
I personally get the not-reporting-it-immediately thing, to the extent I have to remind myself that other people see that as significant.

The other side of the coin is that there are false reports of sexual assault and other crimes. Not staggeringly huge numbers, but try telling that to someone who is facing a conviction and incarceration because of it.

Probing the veracity of what happened does not have to be disrespectful, nor does one have to leap to conclusions. In this particular circumstance, I'd say the late reporting of the sexual assault is not so much a red flag as a light yellow one, well within the scope of normal. However, there are also elements that suggest enough pressure to false report or exagerate in some way. (Re: the sexual assault, not the physical assault.) The news reporting suggests the girl only spoke out about it after she faced consequences from her shoplifting charge, but again, not entirely unusual. I can tell you that suddenly being seen as a victim in a greater crime can sometimes triggers different treatment (especially if one is a minor), and some kids are savvy/scared enough to know and use that. Or they're stupid enough to believe other kids and have a hopelessly wrong expectation about what will occur if they do report. It's a spectrum.

If I were involved in the case, I'd dig further and look at the details of the initial contact with the Dodgers, and the details of the initial reporting to the police, as well as the girl's recent history. Sometimes these things aren't as easy as just obtaining a single suggestive fact.

Not that all this isn't an aside re: Verdugo. And the physical assault, which all apparently agree happened.

What is lacking are details on the physical assault. Again, these things have degrees of wrongness to them. Did the older girls flailing smack at the younger girl a couple of times while yelling at her for puking on the bed? Was it a full fledged beat-down, an attempt to do real harm? Reporting is light on this. It's one thing to snapchat the former, and another to snapchat the latter. I'd hesitate to label Verdugo a sociopath until I knew what happened. (Not that most 19 year olds aren't a touch sociopathic.)
As someone who works daily with people around 19 years of age, a bit younger I suppose, I can definitely agree with your last comment!

Of course I, and I'm sure most others, agree that wrongly accusing someone of a serious crime is a serious problem. That being said, I just wonder why with sexual assault specifically it seems common to always look at the other side of the coin, as you say. As you also say, there doesn't seem to be that much evidence of faked sexual assault for gain, yet instances of sexual assault are much more abundant and we probably don't know the extent of it due to hesitancy to report out of terror, intimidation, distrust, personal circumstances, whatever else, so why care so much about a seemingly rare possibility? When we investigate a murder, we're not constantly on the lookout for life insurance fraud; well maybe the life insurance company is.

All in all, I totally agree with what you are saying -- it would suck to wrongly convict someone of sexual assault. I just also think it really sucks to put the burden on the victim to act in a detached, objective, and procedural manner when the experience he or she is trying to deal with is anything but that. I also totally agree with you that an investigation should be carried out with the primary goal of finding out if there was assault and who was involved. Worry about conspiracy theories about manipulating the criminal justice system later.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,749
The wrong side of the bridge....
The other side of the coin is that there are false reports of sexual assault and other crimes. Not staggeringly huge numbers, but try telling that to someone who is facing a conviction and incarceration because of it.
Of course this is true, and is why blanket statements about believing victims can't and shouldn't hold up in a criminal proceeding. But this isn't a criminal proceeding, and in trying to understand what happened and how we as fans should feel about rooting for this young man, it's perfectly legitimate to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
Of course this is true, and is why blanket statements about believing victims can't and shouldn't hold up in a criminal proceeding. But this isn't a criminal proceeding, and in trying to understand what happened and how we as fans should feel about rooting for this young man, it's perfectly legitimate to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt.
But we're not giving Verdugo the benefit of the doubt and we don't know his side of the story.
 

czar

fanboy
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
4,161
Ann Arbor
Of course this is true, and is why blanket statements about believing victims can't and shouldn't hold up in a criminal proceeding. But this isn't a criminal proceeding, and in trying to understand what happened and how we as fans should feel about rooting for this young man, it's perfectly legitimate to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt.
For me, this is bingo. IMO, there's enough smoke here (not only the assault allegations, but also the work ethic issues that have consistently followed Verdugo in prospect circles) for me to feel pretty non-plussed about rooting for him. I'm not on a jury, just a guy deciding how I want to expend my free time/energy giving money to a private sports entity, every other Sox fan may make different "calculations."
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,396
I'm sorry to hear you had to go through this. Hoping all is well.
It’s more than 20 years in the past. And in those days the police didn’t take us seriously (in the LGBT community we have some pretty high rates of domestic abuse for exactly that reason). I used to joke that I was so far in the closet that I passed through Narnia on the way out, my partner back then couldn’t even see the fucking lamppost from his spot.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,749
The wrong side of the bridge....
But we're not giving Verdugo the benefit of the doubt and we don't know his side of the story.
"Benefit of the doubt" is by nature not a perfectly even-handed concept. It means that when there is uncertainty about the truth in a situation, you decide to assume, provisionally and with full recognition that you may in the end prove wrong, to accept one person's account as likely to be true. I tend to assume that people are more likely to be victims of sexual assault than they are to falsely accuse others of sexual assault. Both things happen, but one of them happens a lot more often. That's partly just gut instinct, but I believe there are also statistics to back that up (I seem to remember a figure of something like 5 to 8 percent of rape accusations turn out to be false?).
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,396
Wonderful analogy. I'm sorry you had to go through that, and glad you survived it with your keen wit intact.
Eventually making jokes about our abusers is how we deal with it. Abusers love to live in your fucking head long after they’ve stopped living in your life. It’s one way we survivors tell them that they’re just not important to us anymore.

And, of course, I get the last laugh all the way round as my particular ball & chain died some years back. And, no, I couldn’t tell you how, because the obituary was so full of shit that he could have died of acute lead poisoning for all I know. And I take a certain perverse pride in the fact that he means so little I couldn’t be bothered to find out.

I like to think that that fact bothers him in his particular sulfur closet in hell.
 

Bigpupp

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 8, 2008
1,730
New Mexico

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
7,899
I stopped drinking a long time ago, for various reasons. But I remember being in college and getting hammered and not really having a good sense of myself. I'm so grateful I never found myself in a fight or in a terribly compromising situation, and I'm even more grateful that I never harmed anyone or was party to a situation where someone is getting harmed.

That being said....it's pretty well understood that a large consumption of alcohol - which I'm pretty sure most everyone here has experienced before - will clearly mess with your ability to reason, your judgment, and even your sense of right and wrong. Which is....one of the reasons why I don't drink anymore. I want to keep what's left of my wits about me at all times.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
10,225
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Of course this is true, and is why blanket statements about believing victims can't and shouldn't hold up in a criminal proceeding. But this isn't a criminal proceeding, and in trying to understand what happened and how we as fans should feel about rooting for this young man, it's perfectly legitimate to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about Verdugo as a player. As far as I go, he seems like a tool. "Implicated in a sexual assault" is another matter entirely.

I'd like to assume, thread evidence to the contrary, that we're adults capable of making this of distinction.

That being said, I just wonder why with sexual assault specifically it seems common to always look at the other side of the coin, as you say.
Some of us try to look at situations for what they are, and don't just limit this to sexual assaults. Which is an aside re: Verdugo by the way. Which apparently isn't really getting through to a lof of folks.

I just also think it really sucks to put the burden on the victim to act in a detached, objective, and procedural manner when the experience he or she is trying to deal with is anything but that.
Who is trying to do that?

You know, there's nothing that says one must provisionally judge things on initial reports, then assign the burden of proof (or production) this way or that.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,749
The wrong side of the bridge....
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about Verdugo as a player. As far as I go, he seems like a tool. "Implicated in a sexual assault" is another matter entirely.
Yeah, but how to feel about Verdugo as a player is exactly what this thread is about, and really all that any of us, as Red Sox fans, have any business with. Nobody's planning a citizen's arrest or anything AFAICT.

Who is trying to do that?
I think this was a response to whoever asked why she didn't go to the police -- which is, though it may not have been meant that way here, a classic victim-shaming/blame-deflecting gambit (she didn't do what seems to me, in retrospect and at a safe distance, to be the obvious and rational thing--ergo, she's untrustworthy).

As for conflating sexual assault with what Verdugo is actually accused of, yes, they are different things, and it's important to be cognizant of that. But--as I suggested in an earlier post--this is basically a distinction between something that's both sociopathic and criminal, and something that's just sociopathic. It's like the difference between fresh Miller Lite and skunked Miller Lite. The fact that one has crossed a line that the other hasn't doesn't alter the fact that they both suck hugely.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
10,225
Miami (oh, Miami!)
But--as I suggested in an earlier post--this is basically a distinction between something that's both sociopathic and criminal, and something that's just sociopathic. It's like the difference between fresh Miller Lite and skunked Miller Lite. The fact that one has crossed a line that the other hasn't doesn't alter the fact that they both suck hugely.
Now I know you're entirely full of it; all forms of Miller Lite are criminal.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
28,484
AZ
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about Verdugo as a player. As far as I go, he seems like a tool. "Implicated in a sexual assault" is another matter entirely.

I'd like to assume, thread evidence to the contrary, that we're adults capable of making this of distinction.



Some of us try to look at situations for what they are, and don't just limit this to sexual assaults. Which is an aside re: Verdugo by the way. Which apparently isn't really getting through to a lof of folks.



Who is trying to do that?

You know, there's nothing that says one must provisionally judge things on initial reports, then assign the burden of proof (or production) this way or that.
It can be hard being a lawyer in these situations. Or maybe if not hard it tends to change how you look at the world and what you think. In a much less serious context, this happens to me all the time when people talk about burdens of proof with respect to replay and the primacy that should be given to the call on the field.

In this circumstance, for example, the following has been an unspoken premise of mine throughout the discussion: If Francona is right and Verdugo filmed the beating, I am more predisposed to believe that he also had some level of awareness about the alleged sexual assault. Either before the fact, after the fact, or as creating an environment that made it more likely to occur.

In my mind it sets the scene for what was going on. None of this would really fly in a courtroom. Although, of course, jurors actually make the same leaps all the time. In general I'd probably be the kind of juror that most defense lawyers would want if you just went by my resume and politics. But, in this case, perhaps not.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
Kapler has taken some heat and I'm curious at to what people believe he should have done. In my opinion, he should have emailed the grandmother and the young girl and instructed them to notify the police. He should have then informed the Dodgers upper management of the incident. He had no power to call in the two women for questioning so it seems unfair to expect him to take any actions against the players based on an email.

There is a discrepancy between the Heels on Deck and WAPO regarding the proposed dinner. The first article stated the two women would be there and the WAPO that Kapler only wanted the players to attend.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
63,566
Oregon
Kapler has taken some heat and I'm curious at to what people believe he should have done. In my opinion, he should have emailed the grandmother and the young girl and instructed them to notify the police. He should have then informed the Dodgers upper management of the incident.
Take this out of a sports team for a moment.

You're a supervisor. You get a credible report that something of this nature has been committed by 2-3 members of your staff. Do you pass the buck upstairs, or do you take responsibility for the behavior of those you supervise and contact authorities on your own?

"I passed along what I knew to my superiors and advised the victim to do something about it" wouldn't help me sleep better at night
 

Average Reds

Dope
Staff member
Dope
V&N Mod
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
27,217
Southwestern CT
Take this out of a sports team for a moment.

You're a supervisor. You get a credible report that something of this nature has been committed by 2-3 members of your staff. Do you pass the buck upstairs, or do you take responsibility for the behavior of those you supervise and contact authorities on your own?

"I passed along what I knew to my superiors and advised the victim to do something about it" wouldn't help me sleep better at night
Hard for me to take it out of a sports team, because what you are describing is very close to what occurred at Penn State. The buck was passed until there was no one to pass it to. At which point, the individual at the top declared that since the person being reported was no longer a PSU employee, it wasn't their problem. Poof, problem solved! (And no, this wouldn't help me sleep at night. Much like it did not help Mike McQueary sleep for all those years.)

I don't know enough of the details to say for sure what Kapler should have done. But I know enough to say that what he did is not defensible.

I also know enough to believe that the Sox are nuts to have anything to do with Verdugo.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
Take this out of a sports team for a moment.

You're a supervisor. You get a credible report that something of this nature has been committed by 2-3 members of your staff. Do you pass the buck upstairs, or do you take responsibility for the behavior of those you supervise and contact authorities on your own?

"I passed along what I knew to my superiors and advised the victim to do something about it" wouldn't help me sleep better at night
It's a ticking time bomb and it's not part of his job description. Someone in upper management would need to probably get some legal advice and make a decision. There are millions of dollars involved so if they kicked Verdugo of the team he would be likely to hire an attorney and sue for wrongful termination. The story could affect the reputation of the team and the decision as to how handle it has to come from upper management, maybe the GM.

The Verdugo and Paterno stories are not apples to apples. It's bewildering that Paterno didn't call the police.
 

MartyBC

lurker
Jul 22, 2017
28
Seems like the Dodgers need quit complaining about stealing signs and start worrying about their ball players stealing from women.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,403
Of course this is true, and is why blanket statements about believing victims can't and shouldn't hold up in a criminal proceeding. But this isn't a criminal proceeding, and in trying to understand what happened and how we as fans should feel about rooting for this young man, it's perfectly legitimate to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt.
What did she accuse Verdugo of, again? Underage drinking and videoing a fight between 3 girls he barely knew?

Verdugo’s actions are cringeworthy. The level of overkill in this thread is actually frightening.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
63,566
Oregon
It's a ticking time bomb and it's not part of his job description. Someone in upper management would need to probably get some legal advice and make a decision. There are millions of dollars involved so if they kicked Verdugo of the team he would be likely to hire an attorney and sue for wrongful termination. The story could affect the reputation of the team and the decision as to how handle it has to come from upper management, maybe the GM.
I didn't compare it to Paterno. And, "it's not my job" is an easy out for someone to avoid getting involved.

In the non-sports scenario I posited, I would follow it through to see appropriate action was taken. If you'd feel you'd done your duty my filing a report with upper management, that's your call.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

Luddite
Silver Supporter
Jul 5, 2018
342
I didn't compare it to Paterno. And, "it's not my job" is an easy out for someone to avoid getting involved.

In the non-sports scenario I posited, I would follow it through to see appropriate action was taken. If you'd feel you'd done your duty my filing a report with upper management, that's your call.
It's more than filing a report. I sit down with the GM and provide him with all the information I have. Why should a decision that could affect the reputation of the team be on my shoulders? The GM can consult with an attorney, meet with the owners and make a decision.
 

keninten

lurker
Nov 24, 2005
561
Tennessee
Aww the world has changed alot. Pretty much everything about this case is speculation. This is all gossip until it is investigated by people who know what they are doing. This is how things get all blown out of proportion. Why can`t people just wait to hear what happened? Maybe it`s all been properly investigated and it was nothing. Should we start it all up again if everyone involved was satisfied just to please ourselves? Everyone needs to be patient and stop speculating. That`s how misfacts start.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,396
It can’t be properly investigated as a shitstainy organization took pains to cover it up.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
63,566
Oregon
It's more than filing a report. I sit down with the GM and provide him with all the information I have. Why should a decision that could affect the reputation of the team be on my shoulders? The GM can consult with an attorney, meet with the owners and make a decision.
Again, we're not talking about professional responsibility; we're talking about moral obligation.
If you're satisfied that handing the matter over to management fulfills your moral obligation, then that's your call to make.

This isn't a one size fits all set of circumstances.
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
10,603
Is this an issue outside of SOSH to this point? It SHOULD be, but I also haven't seen any writers or talk radio taking them to task for this. I'm not convinced this will ultimately lead to many hard questions with the vast majority of the focus on ditching Mookie.
 

Gambler7

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2003
3,381
Is this an issue outside of SOSH to this point? It SHOULD be, but I also haven't seen any writers or talk radio taking them to task for this. I'm not convinced this will ultimately lead to many hard questions with the vast majority of the focus on ditching Mookie.
It has been discussed quite a bit on 98.5 during the mid day and afternoon shows.