AJP gets exorcised and Christian Vazquez up. Starts tonight

[radsoxfan]

So that they could have ended up paying twice as much for shitty production on a team going nowhere?

 
Agreed.  Since a brief hot start, Salty has been his standard pretty terrible self, with even less power than normal.  Plus he has missed a bunch of time with injuries.
 
The only thing worse than paying AJP 8M for one season (well a half season now….) would have been paying Salty 14M.

 

[MuzzyField]

AJP and Salty are both the wrong answer. Also, Chooch was in play, according to my Phillies friend. Sure, it may have just been a ploy to get his sweet deal in Philly.

 

[benhogan]

So that they could have ended up paying twice as much for shitty production on a team going nowhere?

I think more then a few of us thought Salty was going to be offered the QO last fall, including myself.  Many of us were wrong.
 
There was even a few 'resident geniuses' on this sight that had Salty pegged to make $75MM for 5 yrs last fall and felt his 2013 playoff performance wouldn't diminish his payday.  Now that would have been a hideous deal to swallow.

 

[MuzzyField]

I think more then a few of us thought Salty was going to be offered the QO last fall, including myself.  Many of us were wrong.
 
There was even a few 'resident geniuses' on this sight that had Salty pegged to make $75MM for 5 yrs last fall and felt his 2013 playoff performance wouldn't diminish his payday.  Now that would have been a hideous deal to swallow.

When Salty reached the postseason, he was cooked, but I didn't blame him. The Ross concussions forced Salty to catch more than expected and I just think he was gassed. That said, knowing what we know now, and given his performance in Miami, his departure was the right move.

 

[Norm Siebern]

Thank God. Thank God Almighty. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

When Salty reached the postseason, he was cooked, but I didn't blame him. The Ross concussions forced Salty to catch more than expected and I just think he was gassed. That said, knowing what we know now, and given his performance in Miami, his departure was the right move.

 
Two things: He got a lot of days off in September, and he can't catch.

 

[soxhop411]

Fwiw
“@jtomase: Sometimes a vet gets cut and the reaction is funereal. But Red Sox clubhouse seems pretty upbeat today, post-AJ, fwiw. Just an observation.”
https://twitter.com/jtomase/status/486983813461864448

 

[Van Everyman]

Didn't Tomase write the "whisper-whisper" hit piece on AJ a few weeks back? It's not on the Herald's site anymore for anyone who doesn't subscribe (basically anyone).

 

[MuzzyField]

 
Two things: He got a lot of days off in September, and he can't catch.

Several things regarding your first thing...

There was a reason for all of the days off in September... He was catching 2-3 games more a month in June, July and August and even though he played the same number of games in 2012 and 2013 (121) he had 22 more plate appearances. He was ridden harder than he'd ever been and it showed. Some extra rest in early September wasn't enough.

 

[MuzzyField]

So, can we assume at some point Wright gets a look now that there's a catcher that can field the knuckleball (catch doesn't seem to reflect the skill required).

 

[LuckyBen]

Several things regarding your first thing...

There was a reason for all of the days off in September... He was catching 2-3 games more a month in June, July and August and even though he played the same number of games in 2012 and 2013 (121) he had 22 more plate appearances. He was ridden harder than he'd ever been and it showed. Some extra rest in early September wasn't enough.

So what are his excuses for sucking in a Marlins uniform?

 

[MuzzyField]

So what are his excuses for sucking in a Marlins uniform?

Send him a text and ask him yourself. What he's doing now, not my concern.

Wasn't the plan last year for Ross to catch 60-plus games? Don't you think after Salty caught 121 in 2012 it was determined less would be more in 2013?

 

[MuzzyField]

So what are his excuses for sucking in a Marlins uniform?

Send him a text and ask him yourself. What he's doing now, not my concern.

Wasn't the plan last year for Ross to catch 60-plus games? Don't you think after Salty caught 121 in 2012 it was determined less would be more in 2013?

 

[Plympton91]

He has a 100 OPS plus halfway through season 1, I'd hardly call that sucking for a catcher, especially on that can hit 4 home runs in any given week. As to defensive stats, other than caught stealing I give them about as much credence as a plus minus rating in hockey. They just don't pass the smell test. No way in hell was Salty worse at framing pitches than Pierzinski. No f ing way.

 

[MuzzyField]

He has a 100 OPS plus halfway through season 1, I'd hardly call that sucking for a catcher, especially on that can hit 4 home runs in any given week. As to defensive stats, other than caught stealing I give them about as much credence as a plus minus rating in hockey. They just don't pass the smell test. No way in hell was Salty worse at framing pitches than Pierzinski. No f ing way.

Not to mention, Sox pitchers would actually throw to him and not all wish they were Lester throwing to Ross.

The Marlins are riding him for every single dollar, if it wasn't for his DL trip, he was on pace to catch 140 games.

 

[NJ Fan]

I think more then a few of us thought Salty was going to be offered the QO last fall, including myself.  Many of us were wrong.
 
There was even a few 'resident geniuses' on this sight that had Salty pegged to make $75MM for 5 yrs last fall and felt his 2013 playoff performance wouldn't diminish his payday.  Now that would have been a hideous deal to swallow.

I had him at 4/$56 towards the end of the regular season. Ouch!

 

[alwyn96]

He has a 100 OPS plus halfway through season 1, I'd hardly call that sucking for a catcher, especially on that can hit 4 home runs in any given week. As to defensive stats, other than caught stealing I give them about as much credence as a plus minus rating in hockey. They just don't pass the smell test. No way in hell was Salty worse at framing pitches than Pierzinski. No f ing way.

Where are you getting the pitch framing thing from? I don't think the fangraphs or br defensive stats account for framing, do they? Is there some new, generally accepted stat I'm missing? 
 
At any rate, Vazquez looked pretty awesome at it to me. According to Brooks it doesn't look like he stole any more strikes than Flowers, but I think over the rest of the season Vazquez will steal a bunch of calls. 

 

[garlan5]

But we are only TWO OUT from 1.1 and some guy named Nutella!  Mmmmmm.

man I have zero idea what this means. 

 

[Bone Chips]

Wow. I knew AJP was causing problems with team chemistry, but I didn't realize how bad it was. http://m.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2014/07/10/aj-pierzynski-problem-was-worse-anybody-could

 

[InsideTheParker]

Some of that article strikes me as reaching. For example, if Ross yelled at the ump, Sosh would be applauding.

 

[Average Reds]

Wow. I knew AJP was causing problems with team chemistry, but I didn't realize how bad it was. http://m.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2014/07/10/aj-pierzynski-problem-was-worse-anybody-could

 
That's some serious Junior High School nonsense there.  I mean, the note at the end where Bradford indicates that before last night's game, several Red Sox players were gathered near the lockers of Ross, Peavy and Lester (who were next to AJ) for the first time all year - isn't that as much of an indictment of the team for refusing to accept AJ as the other way around?
 
That's not a defense of AJ.  I hated his approach at the plate, he didn't seem to be an upgrade over Salty as a catcher and he is (by reputation) one of the bigger dicks in the game.  But honestly, that article makes the Sox clubhouse seem like the set of Beverly Hills 90210.

 

[BosRedSox5]

In the super macho culture of professional sports I think the very idea of approaching management and complaining about a teammate is about as extreme a reaction as you can get. This isn't a group of chattering schoolgirls, they're grown men and if they had this much of a problem with AJP then his departure is a better thing than we previously thought. Ross was interviewed before the game, and of Vazquez he said "We'll be better off for having him." I read that as a little bit of a jab as AJ in addition to being supportive of Christian. Now, in light of this new information it seems more telling. 

 

[Average Reds]

In the super macho culture of professional sports I think the very idea of approaching management and complaining about a teammate is about as extreme a reaction as you can get. This isn't a group of chattering schoolgirls, they're grown men and if they had this much of a problem with AJP then his departure is a better thing than we previously thought. Ross was interviewed before the game, and of Vazquez he said "We'll be better off for having him." I read that as a little bit of a jab as AJ in addition to being supportive of Christian. Now, in light of this new information it seems more telling. 

 
I don't disagree that AJ was a problem.  I mean, he's been a problem everywhere he's played, no?  But to hear Sox teammates complaining that he was on his smartphone in the clubhouse does, in fact, make it sound like a bunch of chattering schoolgirls.
 
Whatever, he's gone and we're all better for it.  But that article was the very definition of weak sauce.  I'll acknowledge that may be more about Bradford than it is about the Sox.

 

[twibnotes]

 
I don't disagree that AJ was a problem.  I mean, he's been a problem everywhere he's played, no?  But to hear Sox teammates complaining that he was on his smartphone in the clubhouse does, in fact, make it sound like a bunch of chattering schoolgirls.

The article says he was on his smart phone DURING GAMES and cites an example where he ignored a struggling starting pitcher bc of it. That's wildly unprofessional and indicative of the larger underlying issue implied throughout the article: AJP was self absorbed and demonstrated low emotional intelligence.

 

[Laser Show]

The article says he was on his smart phone DURING GAMES and cites an example where he ignored a struggling starting pitcher bc of it. That's wildly unprofessional and indicative of the larger underlying issue implied throughout the article: AJP was self absorbed and demonstrated low emotional intelligence.

Completely agree. Pretty sure it said he'd go sit at his locker and do it too. It's apples to oranges, but if I had done anything like that when I played ball I would've been rallied against and kicked off the team.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
That's some serious Junior High School nonsense there.  I mean, the note at the end where Bradford indicates that before last night's game, several Red Sox players were gathered near the lockers of Ross, Peavy and Lester (who were next to AJ) for the first time all year - isn't that as much of an indictment of the team for refusing to accept AJ as the other way around?

 
It's impossible to tell from the scant information the article gives, but from what we know of AJP's personality in general, as revealed many times over the years, it seems likely that it was more a question of AJP making teammates unwelcome in his vicinity than them "refusing to accept" him.
 
I mean, for Pete's sake, look at the personalities of these guys as revealed last year. Almost the same crew this year, except for a rookie or two. What is more likely, that suddenly these stellar teammates turn into the cast of Mean Girls just in time for AJP to show up, or that he walks in and starts rubbing people the wrong way from Day One and never stops?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Not to defend AJP, but isn't this just another case of a player/team having flaws that only become an "issue" when the performance on the field isn't satisfactory?  When a team wins, "chemistry" is great or at least not an issue.  When they lose, we get things like "chicken and beer" and "25 players, 25 cabs".  If Pierzynski performed to his career norms, we continue to not hear about his assholish ways.  But he sucked out loud at the plate, so he's cut and it's now open season.
 
Cherington basically said as much last night.  He said that the only thing that came as a surprise to him about AJP this year was the lack of offense.  Which seems to imply they knew when they signed him he was an asshole and then they saw firsthand that he was an asshole, but they were willing to tolerate it if he could hit in a way that resembled what he'd done over his career.  He couldn't, so they got him the hell out of town.  I only wish he could have been this quick to pull the plug on the Bobby V disaster.

 

[JimD]

Wow - a player who's having a down year and is stuck on a crappy team becomes withdrawn and uncommunicative to his teammmates.  Stop the presses!
 
That article reads like Bradford throwing red meat to the masses, or maybe trying to curry favor in the clubhouse.  It doesn't say much for the so-called leadership of this team that some of them apparently gave him material for this hatchet job. 

 

[czar]

Wow. I knew AJP was causing problems with team chemistry, but I didn't realize how bad it was. http://m.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2014/07/10/aj-pierzynski-problem-was-worse-anybody-could

 
Honestly, surprised the smear campaign held off for about 12 hours.

 

[ivanvamp]

I supported the AJP signing.  That said, in all honesty, this is the most excited I've been with respect to this team in about two months.  Holt, Betts, Bradley, Bogaerts, Vazquez, RDLR…..  Goodness, I'm going to enjoy watching these kids play.  Yes, I know they will very much struggle at times and when they do, this team will look awful.  Heck, it's virtually Pawtucket out there.  But still…I love when the Sox' prospects reach the majors and start to play.

 

[Corsi]

 
Honestly, surprised the smear campaign held off for about 12 hours.

 
True, but the absolute lack of even a single teammate saying ANYTHING as AJP left was stark.  Compare this to the cacophony that will surround Peavy's exit.  I don't think that Bradford piece is a hatchet job, really.  This is shit that we knew about AJP from the start and frankly, I'm surprised it took this long to hit the papers.

 

[esfr]

There seems to be a lack of professionalism that continues to permeate the organization - that's most aggravating part of the ups and downs of the last several years.  Lack of leadership is a key element of that but not the only factor.  Whether or not the "AJ effect" is overblown or not, it would appear that this clubhouse at least somewhat lacks a professional culture and therefore struggles to police itself.  No better indication of this than streaky play...not very business like.  Though pure conjecture, it's not unreasonable to conclude its adversely impacting young player development this year at the MLB level.  

 

[Corsi]

There seems to be a lack of professionalism that continues to permeate the organization - that's most aggravating part of the ups and downs of the last several years.  Lack of leadership is a key element of that but not the only factor.  Whether or not the "AJ effect" is overblown or not, it would appear that this clubhouse at least somewhat lacks a professional culture and therefore struggles to police itself.  No better indication of this than streaky play...not very business like.  Though pure conjecture, it's not unreasonable to conclude its adversely impacting young player development this year at the MLB level.  

 
Were you in a coma all of last season?

 

[LeoCarrillo]

There seems to be a lack of professionalism that continues to permeate the organization - that's most aggravating part of the ups and downs of the last several years.  Lack of leadership is a key element of that but not the only factor.  Whether or not the "AJ effect" is overblown or not, it would appear that this clubhouse at least somewhat lacks a professional culture and therefore struggles to police itself.  No better indication of this than streaky play...not very business like.  Though pure conjecture, it's not unreasonable to conclude its adversely impacting young player development this year at the MLB level.  

Were you in a coma for 2013?

 

[Van Everyman]

That was our most unprofessional championship yet.

At any rate, I find it interesting that SOSH kills AJ for a half season up and down – for his approach, for how he receives pitches, for his attitude. And when an article comes out saying as much, a ton of people run to his defense.

Personally, I want to know who the delicate flower was who AJ blew off mid-game for Candy Crush.

Honestly, I think what Ben is saying here is the truth: the team calculated that the potential risk was worth the reward w AJ – and the latter never panned out so they cut bait.

 

[Max Power]

I supported the AJP signing.  That said, in all honesty, this is the most excited I've been with respect to this team in about two months.  Holt, Betts, Bradley, Bogaerts, Vazquez, RDLR…..  Goodness, I'm going to enjoy watching these kids play.  Yes, I know they will very much struggle at times and when they do, this team will look awful.  Heck, it's virtually Pawtucket out there.  But still…I love when the Sox' prospects reach the majors and start to play.

 
I love it when they come up and play well. I watch major league baseball to see the best game in the world played at its highest level. Using two seasons of the major league team as an audition for a bunch of prospects who might never make it is turning the game into American Idol. Sometimes a year doesn't work out and you need to take a bit of a step back to move forward, but I will be extremely disappointed paying the highest ticket prices in the game if the Red Sox don't bring in some help from outside the organization to compete in 2015.

 

[benhogan]

I supported the AJP signing.  That said, in all honesty, this is the most excited I've been with respect to this team in about two months.  Holt, Betts, Bradley, Bogaerts, Vazquez, RDLR…..  Goodness, I'm going to enjoy watching these kids play.  Yes, I know they will very much struggle at times and when they do, this team will look awful.  Heck, it's virtually Pawtucket out there.  But still…I love when the Sox' prospects reach the majors and start to play.

Agreed, especially the defense.
 
Dissecting Vasquez pitch framing skills and watching him play 'cat and mouse' with speedy runners at first will make the season much more palatable.  Also looking forward to seeing him throw out Ellsbury over the next few years and hearing Micheal Kays' reaction.   Would love to see Mookie turn into a younger, healthier version  of '2013 Victorino' in RF  and be left out there to play everyday.  Holt developing into our version of Zobrist (good move to get him some reps at SS). The inevitable dumping of Drew and Xander getting his act back together at SS.  
 
We now have those things to look forward to this season and a good reason to watch.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

That article is a classic Boston sportswriter bashing of a player who just left, with the typical unnamed sources and spin and overdramatizing some minor stuff that conveniently we never heard about as it was going on. If it was written about a player I didn't hate, I would just roll my eyes and disregard it. But since it's about Pierzynski I am going to take it as 100% true.  :buddy:
 
Makes me wish they had dumped his ass a couple weeks ago, before this last-gasp homestand that ended our chances of a pennant race. 

 

[Lars The Wanderer]

When AJ was a Giant there was a story about how one of their starting pitchers wanted to go over some video with AJ before the game. AJ was playing cards and couldn't be bothered. The whole smart phone thing totally rings true.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Personally, I want to know who the delicate flower was who AJ blew off mid-game for Candy Crush.

 
I know I shouldn't, but.....leading candidate?
 
Doubront, April 8 v. TEX, 2.2 IP, 5 RA
 
Doubie got knocked out in a 5-run third that started with a HR and continued with four straight hits, including two doubles, and finished when he walked in the fifth run. AJ behind the plate.

 

[Otis Foster]

That article is a classic Boston sportswriter bashing of a player who just left, with the typical unnamed sources and spin and overdramatizing some minor stuff that conveniently we never heard about as it was going on. If it was written about a player I didn't hate, I would just roll my eyes and disregard it. But since it's about Pierzynski I am going to take it as 100% true.  :buddy:
 
Makes me wish they had dumped his ass a couple weeks ago, before this last-gasp homestand that ended our chances of a pennant race. 

 
 
That ended a long time ago. They had structural flaws coming into the season, and the expected contributions from a 5-deep starter group melted down to Lester and Lackey. As I view it, BC attempted to continue the Belichick philosophy of recruiting players with specific but limited skill sets (e.g., AJP's supposed hitting) in the hope that the whole would be greater than the sum of its parts, as it was in 2013. Unfortunately, WMB and Victorino went down (again), Nava stopped hitting, Farrell let Gomes play against rhp because he had few alternatives, etc.

 

[BosRedSox5]

 
I love it when they come up and play well. I watch major league baseball to see the best game in the world played at its highest level. Using two seasons of the major league team as an audition for a bunch of prospects who might never make it is turning the game into American Idol. Sometimes a year doesn't work out and you need to take a bit of a step back to move forward, but I will be extremely disappointed paying the highest ticket prices in the game if the Red Sox don't bring in some help from outside the organization to compete in 2015.

 
Have we really been that spoiled that seeing a team using a glut of highly touted prospects to build a sustainable contender before our very eyes is boring to us? 

There are fanbases that would relish the chance to see a player like Christian Vazquez start his career with their team (and incredibly, have the general consensus be that he's not near as valuable as another catching prospect who will likely be mid 2015 to early 2016.) 

Surely, the Red Sox should be using their vast resources to fill in the gaps. We need a left fielder. But if the starting lineup in 2015 was:

C- Vazquez
1B- Napoli
2B- Pedroia
3B- Bogaerts
SS- Holt/Marerro
LF- Free Agent 
CF- Bradley Jr.
RF- Victorino
DH- Ortiz

I'd be fairly pleased. 

 

[joe dokes]

 
I know I shouldn't, but.....leading candidate?
 
Doubront, April 8 v. TEX, 2.2 IP, 5 RA
 
Doubie got knocked out in a 5-run third that started with a HR and continued with four straight hits, including two doubles, and finished when he walked in the fifth run. AJ behind the plate.

 
If it was during the game, it's probably a game that AJP wasn't catching?
 

Honestly, I think what Ben is saying here is the truth: the team calculated that the potential risk was worth the reward w AJ – and the latter never panned out so they cut bait.          
 

 
I'm with this. He didn't hit and may have been a worse catcher than they had expected. Whether he's hit a wall at 37, or was not in great shape, doesn't really matter. If there's no reward, the risk, by definition, can't be worth it.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
If it was during the game, it's probably a game that AJP wasn't catching?

 
I was assuming it was during an offensive inning. Would it have been seen as equally egregious if AJP hadn't been the pitcher's batterymate that day?

 

[DJnVa]

He has a 100 OPS plus halfway through season 1, I'd hardly call that sucking for a catcher

 
Come on dude you're not even trying.
 
Since the end of April Salty's OBP is LOWER than what AJP put up this season.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
True, but the absolute lack of even a single teammate saying ANYTHING as AJP left was stark.  Compare this to the cacophony that will surround Peavy's exit.  I don't think that Bradford piece is a hatchet job, really.  This is shit that we knew about AJP from the start and frankly, I'm surprised it took this long to hit the papers.

 
Very true, and I think the reason it took until he was gone was simple: most reporters are gutless.  They see and observe things that they never have the guts to print before a particular player/coach/manager leaves town because they don't want to be ostracized...by the subject of their report or his teammates.  Bradford is a classic kiss ass beat guy, so of course he isn't going to report anything that is going to upset a player while there's still a chance he'll have to come face to face with him in the clubhouse.  He might hurt his chances of finding a new fishing buddy for spring training.
 
It's interesting that Tomase wrote about the AJP/clubhouse rifts a couple weeks ago.  He's the same guy who made himself persona non grata in Foxboro by running with the filming Rams practice story.  I'm still not a fan of his, but at least that hasn't made him gun shy about risking alienation in another sports locker room.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

 
 
That ended a long time ago. They had structural flaws coming into the season, and the expected contributions from a 5-deep starter group melted down to Lester and Lackey. As I view it, BC attempted to continue the Belichick philosophy of recruiting players with specific but limited skill sets (e.g., AJP's supposed hitting) in the hope that the whole would be greater than the sum of its parts, as it was in 2013. Unfortunately, WMB and Victorino went down (again), Nava stopped hitting, Farrell let Gomes play against rhp because he had few alternatives, etc.

 
Yet despite all of that, a 7-3 homestand followed by winning the series against the Astros probably would have had us 5 or so games out in the division at the all-star break. (7-3 in our last 10 instead of 3-7, and we'd only be 5.5 back right now actually.) That's close enough that a good second half gets us in the race, which is always way more fun than being out of it by the all-star break. Instead, the homestand was a huge failure and that basically ended our chances of getting back into the postseason picture. 
 
Dumping AJ makes the team better this season, and it would have been nice to have it happen a little sooner, for a lot of reasons.

 

[Plympton91]

 
Come on dude you're not even trying.
 
Since the end of April Salty's OBP is LOWER than what AJP put up this season.

Last I checked, April counts. If you look through the month-by-month logs of any player in baseball you almost always find long periods in which they sucked and long periods in which they were great. Salty was always a particularly streaky hitter; it was one of the arguments for why Pierzynski would be a better fit. That even though the upside to AJP's offense wasn't there like with Salty, his better contact rate translated to more consistently productive at bats. That was one of the few arguments I didn't dismiss out of hand; sadly the poor contact he was making didn't even make that true.

 

[Rovin Romine]

That article is a classic Boston sportswriter bashing of a player who just left, with the typical unnamed sources and spin and overdramatizing some minor stuff that conveniently we never heard about as it was going on. If it was written about a player I didn't hate, I would just roll my eyes and disregard it. But since it's about Pierzynski I am going to take it as 100% true.  :buddy:
 
Makes me wish they had dumped his ass a couple weeks ago, before this last-gasp homestand that ended our chances of a pennant race. 

 
I don't disagree with you, but I'm curious - are there positive player quotes on AJP since he's gone?  Are players saying that a mistake was made or an injustice occurred or that AJP didn't deserve to lose his job?  
 
I assume if there was any kind of story from that angle the press would go after it.  
 
Silence can be kind of damning also.  

 

[Dogman]

Last I checked, April counts. If you look through the month-by-month logs of any player in baseball you almost always find long periods in which they sucked and long periods in which they were great. Salty was always a particularly streaky hitter; it was one of the arguments for why Pierzynski would be a better fit. That even though the upside to AJP's offense wasn't there like with Salty, his better contact rate translated to more consistently productive at bats. That was one of the few arguments I didn't dismiss out of hand; sadly the poor contact he was making didn't even make that true.

 
Right but your initial post said half a season and April does not constitute half a season. Sounds like NL pitching has adjusted to him since the first month.  Salty has been horrible since April and has another 2.5 years on his deal. The Sox has moved on to Vazquez and don't need to pay Salty (at ~9Mil per).  This is a win for the Sox.