Aaron Hernandez: eating bugs not steaks

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smastroyin

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I would attribute that to the fact that investigators wanted as much evidence as they could acquire given that they don't have the murder weapon, coupled with the Krafts wanting to show full cooperation and disassociation with this player once they saw the evidence such as it was.  
 

PC Drunken Friar

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JayMags71 said:
Did the Ravens and Panthers turn over a similar amount of material in the Carruth and Ray Lewis cases? Was the technology so different back then?
The technology was extremely different. I don't think Carruth or Lewis were waking their coaches. Texting may have been in its infancy with Lewis, but the primary most of communication HAD to have been by phone.
 

JayMags71

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It's entirely possible I'm misremembering, but did Carruth's lawyers ask for his scouting reports? Or did prosecutors ask the panthers for the same volume of evidence the Patriots are providing? Note: I'm not taking a Patriots-Fanboy stance of "THE PATRIOTZ R GETTING SKREWWED" - I'm just trying to understand the differnces in the circumstances, if there are any.
 

smastroyin

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I think they are trying to establish a history of potentially criminal behavior.  He dropped in the draft because of questions about his off-field activities.  We all said it was just smoking weed, but it turns out it may have been more than that.  They want to see what the Patriots had to say about why they drafted him and what they had found out in their own investigation of him.  This is all speculation of course.  Maybe one of the detectives is a fanboy and just wanted an excuse to access something not generally available to the public.  Who knows.
 

dcmissle

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Two problems with this -- great limits are placed on the admissibility of evidence of prior bad acts; anything in a Patriots' scouting report along those lines is almost certainly inadmissible hearsay.
 

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It's the defense that is trying to get the scouting reports. Per ProJo:
 

Aaron Hernandez, the former All Pro tight end for the New England Patriots charged with three murders, is in a protracted legal battle with his former National Football League employer over his personnel records.
 
A memorandum, filed on Friday in Bristol County Superior Court, challenges the Patriots’ position that they do not have to release records regarding the decision to draft Hernandez and provide other documents about his three-year career with the team.
 
The office of C. Samuel Sutter, the Bristol County District Attorney responsible for prosecuting Hernandez, has not objected to the defense team’s efforts to obtain these records.
 
 

 


It’s clear in the filings made by Hernandez’s lawyers, Michael K. Fee and James L. Sultan, of Boston, that they feel the records could assist the former football star in his legal defense.
 
“As such, any record bearing on a defendant’s psychological function, illnesses or afflictions, addiction, cognitive ability, social interactions, behavior under stress, relationship with authority and other such factors are undeniably relevant to the defense of an individual charged with first-degree murder,” the lawyers wrote. “Indeed, a defendant is entitled to place before a jury any evidence that is at all probative of his or her mental condition.”
 
 
 

soxfan121

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JayMags71 said:
It's entirely possible I'm misremembering, but did Carruth's lawyers ask for his scouting reports? Or did prosecutors ask the panthers for the same volume of evidence the Patriots are providing? Note: I'm not taking a Patriots-Fanboy stance of "THE PATRIOTZ R GETTING SKREWWED" - I'm just trying to understand the differnces in the circumstances, if there are any.
 
Apples and oranges. Carruth's case was far more "certain" than Hernandez's is pre-trial. Hernandez has a bad timeline and enough illegal weapons to do heavy jail time but proving he committed first degree murder without the murder weapon and contradictory eyewitness testimony is going to be hard. It's part of the reason the State wants to tie the previous murders - where they have the murder weapon and better eyewitnesses - to the Lloyd proceeding. 
 
RR, and others: If the State can't convict the Lloyd matter, could that put some of the evidence for the double-murder on shakier ground (as that all results from suspicion of the Lloyd murder)?
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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smastroyin said:
I think they are trying to establish a history of potentially criminal behavior.  He dropped in the draft because of questions about his off-field activities.  We all said it was just smoking weed, but it turns out it may have been more than that.  They want to see what the Patriots had to say about why they drafted him and what they had found out in their own investigation of him.  This is all speculation of course. 
Wouldnt it be more telling to get the AH scouting reports of the teams who passed up on AH before the Pats took him?
 
(I guess only if you're the prosecution)
 

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
Wouldnt it be more telling to get the AH scouting reports of the teams who passed up on AH before the Pats took him?
 
(I guess only if you're the prosecution)
 
The Patriots organization is opposed to releasing the Hernandez records, saying the lawyers should seek the information from the Missouri firm that produced them.
 
 
The filing says that 95 percent of the current NFL players have undergone the TAP testing and Bill Belichick, the Patriots’ head coach, has endorsed the testing on the TAP website, according to Hernandez’s lawyers.
 
 

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It’s clear in the filings made by Hernandez’s lawyers, Michael K. Fee and James L. Sultan, of Boston, that they feel the records could assist the former football star in his legal defense.
 
“As such, any record bearing on a defendant’s psychological function, illnesses or afflictions, addiction, cognitive ability, social interactions, behavior under stress, relationship with authority and other such factors are undeniably relevant to the defense of an individual charged with first-degree murder,” the lawyers wrote. “Indeed, a defendant is entitled to place before a jury any evidence that is at all probative of his or her mental condition.”
 
 
While this may be so under MA law, I'm not sure it automatically follows that a scouting report from 2009 would be admissible to show any of those factors at the time of the murder.  It's possibly a business record, and admissible under that theory, but it's still just words on a page - who knows who wrote it and why, or to what extent their information was accurate?  I'm pretty sure if there's any formal diagnosis of anything from a third party in the report then the defense won't be able to backdoor that information through a scouting report, especially if the individuals who contributed to the report are still around and able to be called.
 
If I was the judge, I'd be wary of allowing such a report into evidence, absent some other evidence or testimony that corroborates what it says.   (And as a practical matter, the State should be able to butcher the poor shmoe who introduces the report (custodian), basically by bringing up the fact that it's just a random report, and that the custodian does not even know if the people appearing in the report are real doctors, etc.) 
 
If the defense attorneys are suggesting they'll need the information for sentencing, that's another thing, but for the same reasons, the shouldn't carry much weight on it's own.
 
All that said, the Pats should probably be compelled to provide that report.  
 
soxfan121 said:
 
Apples and oranges. Carruth's case was far more "certain" than Hernandez's is pre-trial. Hernandez has a bad timeline and enough illegal weapons to do heavy jail time but proving he committed first degree murder without the murder weapon and contradictory eyewitness testimony is going to be hard. It's part of the reason the State wants to tie the previous murders - where they have the murder weapon and better eyewitnesses - to the Lloyd proceeding. 
 
RR, and others: If the State can't convict the Lloyd matter, could that put some of the evidence for the double-murder on shakier ground (as that all results from suspicion of the Lloyd murder)?
 
Yes and no.  First off there's no sort of "grading" of the evidence that happens in separate trials.  The evidence put before the jury is what it is and the jury decides what they decide without regards to another case.  So let's say the same fingerprint or gun is introduced in both cases - there's no pro or con "weight" that attaches to that fingerprint or gun no matter how many trials it may have appeared in.  Each case stands on its own.
 
That said, there are two main issues and a side issue.  
 
One, if a witness testifies in Trial 1 and screws-up, whatever they said (under oath) can be brought out in Trial 2 IF that witness is also called in trial two and if what they said was relevant to Trial 2.  (Keep in mind that almost all evidence (and certainly all the juicy stuff) has to have a human to vouch for it and introduce it to the jury.  Some humans are fungible, some humans are the only ones that can testify about what they saw or did or hear or what physical evidence they collected.)  
 
In certain circumstances, a screw-up witness in Trial 1 can be fatal to the State's case in both trials.  For example, if the lead detective was the same on both cases and that LD destroyed evidence, made racist "I'm going to get AH no matter what" type comments, or threatened a witness while investigating Case 1 and that came out in Trial 1, then those sort of things can be brought out in Trial 2 to show the bias of the police department against AH.  (The defense can call the screw-up witness on their own in Trial 2 to rebut any "fixed" testimony that the state tries to offer through another, cleaner witness who knows the same things as the screw-up witness.)
 
However, there's the issues of witness fungibility and relevance.  So, if a fingerprint technician was drunk on duty in Case 1/Trial1, but completely uninvolved in Case2/Trial2, there should no discernible carryover to Trial 2.   
 
Two, if AH is found not-gulity in Trial1, I am honestly not sure how that would affect a motion to mention the facts of Trial 1 during Trial 2.  MA probably has specific case law on this.  FWIW, I can see arguments for a total preclusion of the Trial 1 scenario during Trial 2.  I can also see arguments, depending on the circumstances, that the jury's verdict in Trial 1 has no bearing on the bad act AH was accused of in Trial 1  (say AH is found NG of Murder during Trial 1, but theres on finding on Manslaughter because the jury wasn't asked to decide on that specific crime - therefore the prosecution couldn't argue AH intentionally killed Lloyd during Trial 2, but could say that the evidence shows AH committed another similar killing.)
 
Side issue, which is a variant of the witness screw-up problem.  If evidence was found in Case 2 that was later shown to be unconstitutionally seized due to some wrongdoing during Case 1 (let's say it comes out during Trial 1), that may affect the admissibility of some of the evidence in Trial 2.  There would probably be another layer of litigation to address that - a hearing on the admissibility of evidence.  
 
The above "problems" for the State are pretty unlikely.  You never know at trial though - people do the damnedest things on the stand sometimes.  That's why experienced attorneys will tell you that there's no sure thing when you put a case in front of a jury.  Here, the State's case seems like its very diverse, meaning that lots of points of information coincide to paint the picture of the crime.  Even if one witness messes up, there should be a lot of information before the jury indicative of guilt.  From the defense perspective, it's a sort of death by a thousands cuts, instead of death by the headsman's axe, scenario.  If cutter #546 misses badly and falls on their face, you're still dead (unless you turn it into a sideshow).  If you're lucky enough for the headsman to pull up with a charlie horse, and cut off his own foot, you've got a fighting chance. 
 

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PS- I'm a little skeptical about the trial/sentencing utility of the scouting report.  (Especially when they can just hire a real psychologist to do an evaluation.)  However, I forgot to say that sometimes, as a defense attorney, you have to coddle your client.  Maybe AH is personally convinced (in some whacked way) that the report will somehow be useful to his defense.
 

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@McCannSportsLaw: Aaron Hernandez trial date likely to be Jan 5, 2015, which is 558 days from when he was charged with murdering Odin Lloyd. #notsospeedytrial

Nice little distraction right as the playoffs start.
 

mpx42

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Patriots released a statement today saying they submitted 34 total texts between Belichick and Hernandez, not 34 pages. Per multiple Twitter accounts - on my mobile and can't link at the moment.

But that makes a whole lot more sense.
 

dcmissle

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I am mystified why the Pats provided clarification on this when they so rarely comment and when this matter is about to be swallowed by a tidal wave of training camp news around the League.

In the end, it doesn't matter much whether there are 34 pages or 34 e-mails. It matters much more what those e-mails say.
 

soxfan121

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dcmissle said:
I am mystified why the Pats provided clarification on this when they so rarely comment and when this matter is about to be swallowed by a tidal wave of training camp news around the League.

In the end, it doesn't matter much whether there are 34 pages or 34 e-mails. It matters much more what those e-mails say.
 
Well, they "commented" at 7:15 on Friday night. Which is kinda like not commenting at all, for all the attention it will get. 
 
And if you think there is ANYTHING interesting in those texts, you've not paid enough attention to the BB Era. I bet it has lots of words from the AH side of the conversation and a string of "OK" and "Practice is at 9" replies from BB. Guy never says anything interesting, ever. And he didn't here, either.
 

Stitch01

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Meh, maybe.  He doesn't say much of anything interesting in public.  Sounds like from what players say BB says a shit ton of interesting stuff in private.
 
Text thing is a 100% non-story though.
 

soxfan121

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Stitch01 said:
Meh, maybe.  He doesn't say much of anything interesting in public.  Sounds like from what players say BB says a shit ton of interesting stuff in private.
 
Text thing is a 100% non-story though.
 
"Lay low for a while, find a safe house."
 
The content will be a Rorschach test; haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love. 
 

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dcmissle said:
I am mystified why the Pats provided clarification on this when they so rarely comment and when this matter is about to be swallowed by a tidal wave of training camp news around the League.

In the end, it doesn't matter much whether there are 34 pages or 34 e-mails. It matters much more what those e-mails say.
 
Well, the difference may be in the perception of how much personal contact BB had with AH. If the team wants to distance itself from AH, I think clarifying that they handed over 34 texts, not pages, is a simple enough way to nip speculation that BB and AH had lots and lots of contact in the bud without making any strong statements about the case.
 

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Having the team attorney clear up what the press had little motivation to clean up seems reasonable. My guess is there are members of the press that were aware that the first report of 33 pages was actually only 34 total text messages, but they refused to clear the air for reasons that have to do with keeping a story alive and clicks. I suspect when the true facts of the messages never came out, the Pats decided to do it themselves. In light of the implication the "33 pages" brought, its perfectly understandable. 
 

Judge Mental13

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PaulinMyrBch said:
Having the team attorney clear up what the press had little motivation to clean up seems reasonable. My guess is there are members of the press that were aware that the first report of 33 pages was actually only 34 total text messages, but they refused to clear the air for reasons that have to do with keeping a story alive and clicks. I suspect when the true facts of the messages never came out, the Pats decided to do it themselves. In light of the implication the "33 pages" brought, its perfectly understandable. 
Wasn't the original report from the AP? 
 

PaulinMyrBch

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soxfan121 said:
Two cellphones, three iPads suppressed due to insufficient warrant.
 
Counselors - how does the warrant not cover these devices? 
From what I've read they messed up the paperwork. They specifically listed AH's cell phone, which was seized and not suppressed. But they seized other items that were not listed in the search warrant. Apparently, they discussed putting those in the search warrant request, but did not. So the officers executing the warrant grabbed anything with GPS capability which included those items, problem is they never told the judge or put them in the affidavit they used to get the warrant. Although it sounds like it may have been discussed among law enforcement prior to getting the search warrant. 
 
Or, the cops did a poor job in obtaining the warrant and all this talk of sloppy paperwork is really them trying to find an exception to the warrant so they can keep the evidence they illegally seized. But search warrants in general need to be pretty specific. You are obtaining the right to enter someone's home and take things, the judge needs to know you aren't just going in there to go fishing. You have to list what it is you're looking for and if you don't at least know that, it's doubtful you have probable cause for the warrant. 
 
Edit: RR may have a more detailed explanation, but that's my take based on what little I've read.
 

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soxfan121 said:
 
Well, they "commented" at 7:15 on Friday night. Which is kinda like not commenting at all, for all the attention it will get. 
 
And if you think there is ANYTHING interesting in those texts, you've not paid enough attention to the BB Era. I bet it has lots of words from the AH side of the conversation and a string of "OK" and "Practice is at 9" replies from BB. Guy never says anything interesting, ever. And he didn't here, either.
 
AH:  Coach, can you tell me how the two TE offense evolved into what we are running?
BB; [34 page long text]
AH:  Coach, I'm in trouble, can you help?
BB:  Practice is at 9.
 

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PaulinMyrBch said:
From what I've read they messed up the paperwork. They specifically listed AH's cell phone, which was seized and not suppressed. But they seized other items that were not listed in the search warrant. Apparently, they discussed putting those in the search warrant request, but did not. So the officers executing the warrant grabbed anything with GPS capability which included those items, problem is they never told the judge or put them in the affidavit they used to get the warrant. Although it sounds like it may have been discussed among law enforcement prior to getting the search warrant. 
 
Or, the cops did a poor job in obtaining the warrant and all this talk of sloppy paperwork is really them trying to find an exception to the warrant so they can keep the evidence they illegally seized. But search warrants in general need to be pretty specific. You are obtaining the right to enter someone's home and take things, the judge needs to know you aren't just going in there to go fishing. You have to list what it is you're looking for and if you don't at least know that, it's doubtful you have probable cause for the warrant. 
 
Edit: RR may have a more detailed explanation, but that's my take based on what little I've read.
 
Busy week - but yes, Paulin is essentially correct.  You have to specify what you want in the application for a search warrant.   The reason behind this is that to go into someone's private domain and seize property: a) a crime has to be committed, and b) the objects seized must have some rational relation to a theory about the crime.  A and B pass through the judge who issues the search warrant based on a showing of probable cause.  The judge functions as a gate keeper.  The police cannot then exceed the scope of a warrant by, say, getting a warrant for a car in a garage and then searching 5 different properties that car-owner might also own, attic to basement, just looking for "stuff."  That's the sort of "common sense" shape of it.  
 
There's a lot of law as to what can legitimately expand the scope of a warrant, mostly, emergency-type situations.  Also, there's a lot of law which addresses in which a warrant is not needed.   For example, if there's obvious contraband in plain view during a search (or at any other point in time), the police don't need a special warrant to seize it.  
 
The "non common sense" situations involves the courts narrowly tailoring searches via the issued warrant.   Occasionally, the courts will throw out something "good" for the police and prosecution when the police clearly overstep their bounds.  (I.e., there's no expansion and no exception in that situation.)  Basically it's going where you're not allowed to go, searching where you're not allowed to search, and seizing what you're not allowed to seize. Because, you know, this is still a country of laws, not unilateral police power.  
 
There's some debate about the remedy of excluding otherwise "good" evidence which is illegally seized, but I've never heard of another way to limit the police from just busting in to someone's home and riffling through their shit, "just because."  (Actually, the way is to make it much much easier for private citizens to sue the police, but that's not going to fly for numerous reasons.)
 
What's baffling is why the police didn't simply get a second warrant based on what they saw.  
 
FWIW, this is clearly one of those "blame the police for screwing up" situations.  Many pundits will doubtless blame the Court for failing to circumvent the law and thus allow the police to overstep their bounds.  The "injustice" of suppressing illegally gathered evidence usually gets run up the media flagpole in high profile cases where the person is basically presumed guilty - however, there's far less coverage of illegal police searches or harassment of completely innocent persons, and far less cry for "something to be done" about that. 
 

soxfan121

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Saints Rest said:
 
AH:  Coach, can you tell me how the two TE offense evolved into what we are running?
BB; [34 page long text]
AH:  Coach, I'm in trouble, can you help?
BB:  Practice is at 9.
 
OMG that's really, really funny. Well done, sir.
 

HomeRunBaker

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What is the max time Aaron would have to serve on the gun charges they have on him? I've yet to see any evidence even suggesting they could get a guilty on the murder charges. He may get snaps before Rice does.....I'm only half kidding.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
What is the max time Aaron would have to serve on the gun charges they have on him? I've yet to see any evidence even suggesting they could get a guilty on the murder charges. He may get snaps before Rice does.....I'm only half kidding.
 
I find it astounding that anyone with an IQ over 40 could make this statement. 
 
We've had a number of threads on this and many people have taken the time to outline in fairly significant detail the evidence against AH.  And yet fanboys still feel compelled to jump in these threads and post that "I've not seen anything to suggest that prosecutors could get a guilty verdict on the murder charges."
 
Real life is not an episode of Law and Order.  The prosecution does not have to show guilt beyond all doubt - just guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no reasonable person could look at the evidence that we know about and conclude that AH isn't guilty.
 
Edited to add snark.  Because it deserves to be in there.
 

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soxhop411 said:
“@AlbertBreer: Follow @PetesWire for a significant development in the Aaron Hernandez case -- ex-Patriot's lawyers alleging "interrogation" was unlawful.”
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/511919293257490432
link to tweet
 


 
The lawyers for AH have had a year to think up ways to challenge the evidence and this is what they came up with?  
 
This isn't a "significant development."  It's laughable stuff.
 

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Breaking news: Accused criminal says rights were violated by police. Story at 11.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Average Reds said:
 
I find it astounding that anyone with an IQ over 40 could make this statement. 
 
We've had a number of threads on this and many people have taken the time to outline in fairly significant detail the evidence against AH.  And yet fanboys still feel compelled to jump in these threads and post that "I've not seen anything to suggest that prosecutors could get a guilty verdict on the murder charges."
 
Real life is not an episode of Law and Order.  The prosecution does not have to show guilt beyond all doubt - just guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no reasonable person could look at the evidence that we know about and conclude that AH isn't guilty.
 
Edited to add snark.  Because it deserves to be in there.
Yeah OJ and Robert Blake are chuckling at this post. Celebrities have the means to hire the talent to get them off. This isn't new. Lol at him ever being found guilty in a court of law on the murder regardless of how many Sosh experts post about it.
 

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Caspir said:
Breaking news: Accused criminal says rights were violated by police. Story at 11.
 
"They made me feel like I was a suspect," is my favorite part.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Yeah OJ and Robert Blake are chuckling at this post. Celebrities have the means to hire the talent to get them off. This isn't new. Lol at him ever being found guilty in a court of law on the murder regardless of how many Sosh experts post about it.
 
OJ probably doesn't apply here; what we learned about the LAPD boggles the imagination, right down the letter in the file of the lead investigator where he said his work with LA street gangs had turned him into an irreformable racist.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Yeah OJ and Robert Blake are chuckling at this post. Celebrities have the means to hire the talent to get them off. This isn't new. Lol at him ever being found guilty in a court of law on the murder regardless of how many Sosh experts post about it.
I have a blue car, too!
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Yeah OJ and Robert Blake are chuckling at this post. Celebrities have the means to hire the talent to get them off. This isn't new. Lol at him ever being found guilty in a court of law on the murder regardless of how many Sosh experts post about it.
Do you think the Pats cutting him was a massive overreaction, or are you confining your remarks to the criminal aspects of the case?
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Yeah OJ and Robert Blake are chuckling at this post. Celebrities have the means to hire the talent to get them off. This isn't new. Lol at him ever being found guilty in a court of law on the murder regardless of how many Sosh experts post about it.
 
Where did OJ's cell phone have him at the time of the murders?
 

HomeRunBaker

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dcmissle said:
Do you think the Pats cutting him was a massive overreaction, or are you confining your remarks to the criminal aspects of the case?
Oh there is no doubt in my mind Aaron killed Lloyd the Pats move was a no-brainer considering the amount of circumstantial evidence. I'm referring to a jury hearing the case and agreeing on a guilty verdict......I'll change my screen name to "Litigious Society" the day that occurs.

Edit: If new evidence is uncovered I do have the right to change my view.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Oh there is no doubt in my mind Aaron killed Lloyd the Pats move was a no-brainer considering the amount of circumstantial evidence. I'm referring to a jury hearing the case and agreeing on a guilty verdict......I'll change my screen name to "Litigious Society" the day that occurs.

Edit: If new evidence is uncovered I do have the right to change my view.
 
Money where your mouth is - how much do you want to contribute to the Jimmy Fund when AH is found guilty?  (And yes, I'll take the other side of that bet.)
 

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Average Reds said:
 
Money where your mouth is - how much do you want to contribute to the Jimmy Fund when AH is found guilty?  (And yes, I'll take the other side of that bet.)
I like this. I'll do $50 but won't dump frozen cubes of water on my cranium.
 

soxfan121

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Guilty of what? He's definitely guilty on the weapons charges, so long as the warrant holds up. 
 
The murder charge has a some large holes in it and if the attorney can convince one juror, he might not end up guilty in the Lloyd case. The double-murder case seems strong to this Not-A-Lawyer but I have no idea if the bad search warrants will affect the evidence collected on that.
 

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soxfan121 said:
Guilty of what? He's definitely guilty on the weapons charges, so long as the warrant holds up. 
 
The murder charge has a some large holes in it and if the attorney can convince one juror, he might not end up guilty in the Lloyd case. The double-murder case seems strong to this Not-A-Lawyer but I have no idea if the bad search warrants will affect the evidence collected on that.
The bet is guilty of either murder. The gun charges I'm assuming are a given but who knows what loopholes his legal team can come up with for that.

I agree that the best chance is the double murder but unless new evidence comes to light in the Lloyd case they've got nothing a jury can convict him off murder in that case.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,445
Southwestern CT
The bet is guilty of murder for Odin Lloyd. No equivocation or wiggle room.

I understand that you were offering me a better bet, but I won't need it. He's toast.
 
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