2024 NFL Draft 4th through 7th round gamethread WITH SPOILERS

ManicCompression

ManicCompression

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soxpatscelts1524 said:
Of course it isn't. But it also might not happen. The more you remain focused on need, the less you are willing to take fallers because they may not coincide with what you need. For all we know, next year a different position could fall that we don't have on our list of needs. The advantage of just taking the talent where it is is that you address needs proactively.

The problem with reaching for a need is multi-fold

1. The fact that you have to reach for a worse player means you may actuallly be less likely to fill the need than you think. Polk's comps in the NFL that I've seen are Doubs, Josh Reynolds, Jalen Tolbert. I guarantee you that if he turns out to be one of those guys, WR will still be a huge need. Maybe he'll be better, and I hope he will, but the further you reach, the less likely you are to fill the need. He also could be worse than that and we'd be back in the same spot we were before. You can say this about any player but the key point is that if you have a desperate need, the draft shouldn't be the place to fill it.

2. Needs can arise in the future different than current needs. What if we really need a CB next year (very plausible) and we're picking 10th. If we pick a CB there, they probably won't be much different than DeJean. If we took DeJean this year and swallowed our lumps at WR, then we could take a WR at the spot next year and fill both needs eventually but have better players at both positions. Not saying everything will turn out like this, but the point is if you draft for talent first, you have more options later on as long as you're willing to wait.
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1. Who is saying that the Patriots reached for Polk? Where is this defined? Some people thought it was early, some people think he's a round 1 prospect. I don't know why you're fixated on Polk vs. Dejean outside of one guy was commonly mocked in round 1.

2. Why would this team really need a CB? They have Christian Gonzalez. They could easily wait until the second or third round next year to find depth behind him... possibly some cornerback prospect who drops further than expected (as they do every single year).

Maybe they just didn't like Cooper Dejean more than Polk? Is that possible? It seems like many other teams shared that assessment?
 
Average Game James

Average Game James

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I guess I don’t really understand the idea that because Polk and Baker aren’t burners with insane top end speed they are “low ceiling” receivers. I mean, look at the top receivers from last year… after the child abuser you have Lamb (4.51), St. Brown (4.61), Nacua (4.57), Brown (4.49), Moore (4.42), Aiyuk (4.50), Nico Collins (4.45), Evans (4.53), and Cooper (4.42). Not a 4.3 to be found and half of those guys were drafted outside round 1. Maybe not being a complete athletic freak precludes those guys from being among the top 3-4 receivers in the league, but certainly not the top 10 which is plenty of ceiling.

And, at the same time, while there are plenty of guys who have overcome perceived limited athleticism to become high end NFL starters, I’m struggling to come up with the examples of high end athletes that struggled to play the position in college and suddenly figured it out in the NFL. Like, who is the analogy for Ad Mitchell as an all-time RAS player that wasn’t great in college, not drafted highly, and went on to be a top player at his position? Of the top 50 all time RAS, the best I have is maybe Vincent Jackson who was picked in the second round. Maybe Christian Watson becomes that guy. But there are a lot more Chad Jacksons and Sammie Coates type players. I need to be convinced there is actually higher ceiling in guys like Ad Mitchell and Dez Walker, and not just perceived higher ceiling because of athleticism.
 
MuellerMen

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Average Game James said:
I guess I don’t really understand the idea that because Polk and Baker aren’t burners with insane top end speed they are “low ceiling” receivers. I mean, look at the top receivers from last year… after the child abuser you have Lamb (4.51), St. Brown (4.61), Nacua (4.57), Brown (4.49), Moore (4.42), Aiyuk (4.50), Nico Collins (4.45), Evans (4.53), and Cooper (4.42). Not a 4.3 to be found and half of those guys were drafted outside round 1. Maybe not being a complete athletic freak precludes those guys from being among the top 3-4 receivers in the league, but certainly not the top 10 which is plenty of ceiling.

And, at the same time, while there are plenty of guys who have overcome perceived limited athleticism to become high end NFL starters, I’m struggling to come up with the examples of high end athletes that struggled to play the position in college and suddenly figured it out in the NFL. Like, who is the analogy for Ad Mitchell as an all-time RAS player that wasn’t great in college, not drafted highly, and went on to be a top player at his position? Of the top 50 all time RAS, the best I have is maybe Vincent Jackson who was picked in the second round. Maybe Christian Watson becomes that guy. But there are a lot more Chad Jacksons and Sammie Coates type players. I need to be convinced there is actually higher ceiling in guys like Ad Mitchell and Dez Walker, and not just perceived higher ceiling because of athleticism.
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This. 100%, absolutely agree. Cross-posting myself from the Javon Baker thread:

Give me the "plays faster than his speed" player over the "runs fast" one any day. Speed is great, super important. But speed without football skill looks like Tyquan Thornton or David Terrell. "Plays faster than his speed" to me usually means the odds of the player having better spatial awareness, natural instincts, and understanding of leverage are much higher. And those are the skills that are harder, if not impossible, to teach. I may be very wrong, but I always perk up when I hear "plays faster than his speed. When someone mentions great speed, I think, "Okay. But how does the guy actually play?"
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Edit: Fixed quote marks
 
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NextBigThing8184

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ManicCompression said:
1. Who is saying that the Patriots reached for Polk? Where is this defined? Some people thought it was early, some people think he's a round 1 prospect. I don't know why you're fixated on Polk vs. Dejean outside of one guy was commonly mocked in round 1.

2. Why would this team really need a CB? They have Christian Gonzalez. They could easily wait until the second or third round next year to find depth behind him... possibly some cornerback prospect who drops further than expected (as they do every single year).

Maybe they just didn't like Cooper Dejean more than Polk? Is that possible? It seems like many other teams shared that assessment?
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why would the team need a CB? Generally you need 2-3 high end corners to have a competent defense. Gonzalez, assuming he pans out, is one. Jones is entering his decline years, the rest of the CBs are fringe roster guys. Marcus Jones maybe can be a passable slot, but the rest are practice squad talent level.

Without the Belichicks to squeeze good production out of spare part and undrafted CB, there’s a very good chance the secondary takes a big step back unless J.Jones stays healthy and can avoid declining further.

In a league where you’re fielding 5-6 DBs on most snaps and the Pats 5-8 DBs are Marcus Jones, Marco Wilson, Alex Austin and Jaylinn Hawkins, adding a quality player seems kind of important.

not saying DeJean over Polk but not addressing the secondary at all in the off-season is strange
 
Two Youks

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soxpatscelts1524 said:
The goal is to field a competitive team, but in what year? Is the question. Even if we suddenly acquired the best WR and the best LT in the league tomorrow, we still would not be competing for the Super Bowl. Of course we will need a better WR and LT, but 1. We don't necessarily need them tomorrow. And 2. The more you force it and reach for one of those positions, the more likely they are to remain needs.

It's very likely that CB actually does become a need in the near future and very possible we'll be regretting not taking DeJean and then have to reach for a CB in some future year. The advantage of rebuilding is that you're able to be proactive and get talent even if it isn't necessarily the best improvement for the team right now.
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QB is the most important position on the field. Period. The Pats' offense, coming into the draft, consisted of:

1 solid journeyman QB. A competent NFL player, but that's damning with faint praise.
An OL that's a combination of old, injured, and mediocre.
A WR room starring the oft-concussed Demario Douglas, Kendrick Bourne coming off an ACL, and flotsam.
A TE group of Hunter Henry and...?
A RB group of a repeatedly injured and largely ineffective in 2023 Rhamondre Stevenson and...?

Drafting Drake Maye and not attempting to fill some of the holes via the draft would be malpractice. Because the idea isn't to just plug the holes, but do it in a way that creates a solid base for a handful of years while everyone is on rookie contracts. That, in turn, will give him a chance to develop into the franchise QB we need while giving the team financial flexibility to be more aggressive with FA signings during that same window.

CB is a need. It's not a need as pressing as anything on the offensive side of the ball. And the defense will be aided by an offense that doesn't consistently go 3-and-out or turn the ball over.

My biggest concern is whether or not the OL guys they picked will be decent or not. But the OL absolutely had to be addressed.
 
Eck'sSneakyCheese

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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NextBigThing8184 said:
why would the team need a CB? Generally you need 2-3 high end corners to have a competent defense. Gonzalez, assuming he pans out, is one. Jones is entering his decline years, the rest of the CBs are fringe roster guys. Marcus Jones maybe can be a passable slot, but the rest are practice squad talent level.

Without the Belichicks to squeeze good production out of spare part and undrafted CB, there’s a very good chance the secondary takes a big step back unless J.Jones stays healthy and can avoid declining further.

In a league where you’re fielding 5-6 DBs on most snaps and the Pats 5-8 DBs are Marcus Jones, Marco Wilson, Alex Austin and Jaylinn Hawkins, adding a quality player seems kind of important.

not saying DeJean over Polk but not addressing the secondary at all in the off-season is strange
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I thought Austin and Wilson looked good in limited action last year. Both are young. I agree they should add someone but I wouldn’t call it a dire need.
 
Dollar

Dollar

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It would have been great if they kept bringing in former players and had Jeremiah Trotter Sr read the Eagles' pick.
 
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soxpatscelts1524

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NextBigThing8184 said:
why would the team need a CB? Generally you need 2-3 high end corners to have a competent defense. Gonzalez, assuming he pans out, is one. Jones is entering his decline years, the rest of the CBs are fringe roster guys. Marcus Jones maybe can be a passable slot, but the rest are practice squad talent level.

Without the Belichicks to squeeze good production out of spare part and undrafted CB, there’s a very good chance the secondary takes a big step back unless J.Jones stays healthy and can avoid declining further.

In a league where you’re fielding 5-6 DBs on most snaps and the Pats 5-8 DBs are Marcus Jones, Marco Wilson, Alex Austin and Jaylinn Hawkins, adding a quality player seems kind of important.

not saying DeJean over Polk but not addressing the secondary at all in the off-season is strange
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This is mostly my thought process. When I say BPA, I'm not suggesting we pull a Falcons and take a Penix. Or draft a RB or something. But to be a great team, we'll need 2 CBs. We'll need multiple D Linemen. We'll need multiple receivers and multiple LTs. I get that WR and LT are currently the worst positions on the roster, but I don't get the hyper focus on those positions to the expense of other important ones just because next year those might be slightly more of a need. BPA within reason is my philosopgy
 
ManicCompression

ManicCompression

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NextBigThing8184 said:
why would the team need a CB? Generally you need 2-3 high end corners to have a competent defense. Gonzalez, assuming he pans out, is one. Jones is entering his decline years, the rest of the CBs are fringe roster guys. Marcus Jones maybe can be a passable slot, but the rest are practice squad talent level.

Without the Belichicks to squeeze good production out of spare part and undrafted CB, there’s a very good chance the secondary takes a big step back unless J.Jones stays healthy and can avoid declining further.

In a league where you’re fielding 5-6 DBs on most snaps and the Pats 5-8 DBs are Marcus Jones, Marco Wilson, Alex Austin and Jaylinn Hawkins, adding a quality player seems kind of important.

not saying DeJean over Polk but not addressing the secondary at all in the off-season is strange
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The entire post I'm responding to is about Dejean v. Polk and being forced to reach for a top 10 CB next year for vague reasons. I'm well aware that you need good corner depth to contend, but you also need good WR depth, so I don't understand why - if you have Polk and Dejean fairly equal on your board - you'd pick Dejean just to have a good second corner behind Gonzo, particularly when your high end talent at CB is much better than anything at WR.

Every team has a weakness. If our weakness is secondary depth, then I'm ecstatic, because that's easily addressable with draft picks (let alone trade and free agency). How do I know this? Because the team everyone is jizzing over - the Eagles - had a fucking terrible secondary and they've been able to get talent in the draft without really breaking a sweat.
 
ManicCompression

ManicCompression

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soxpatscelts1524 said:
This is mostly my thought process. When I say BPA, I'm not suggesting we pull a Falcons and take a Penix. Or draft a RB or something. But to be a great team, we'll need 2 CBs. We'll need multiple D Linemen. We'll need multiple receivers and multiple LTs. I get that WR and LT are currently the worst positions on the roster, but I don't get the hyper focus on those positions to the expense of other important ones just because next year those might be slightly more of a need. BPA within reason is my philosopgy
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But to have this opinion, you have to assume that they didn't see Polk as the BPA there, and that's a huge assumption with no basis in anything.
 
E5 Yaz

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soxpatscelts1524 said:
This is mostly my thought process. When I say BPA, I'm not suggesting we pull a Falcons and take a Penix. Or draft a RB or something. But to be a great team, we'll need 2 CBs. We'll need multiple D Linemen. We'll need multiple receivers and multiple LTs. I get that WR and LT are currently the worst positions on the roster, but I don't get the hyper focus on those positions to the expense of other important ones just because next year those might be slightly more of a need. BPA within reason is my philosopgy
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So given your philosophy who would have been your BPA for each of their picks in rounds two to four
 
tims4wins

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Average Game James said:
I guess I don’t really understand the idea that because Polk and Baker aren’t burners with insane top end speed they are “low ceiling” receivers. I mean, look at the top receivers from last year… after the child abuser you have Lamb (4.51), St. Brown (4.61), Nacua (4.57), Brown (4.49), Moore (4.42), Aiyuk (4.50), Nico Collins (4.45), Evans (4.53), and Cooper (4.42). Not a 4.3 to be found and half of those guys were drafted outside round 1. Maybe not being a complete athletic freak precludes those guys from being among the top 3-4 receivers in the league, but certainly not the top 10 which is plenty of ceiling.

And, at the same time, while there are plenty of guys who have overcome perceived limited athleticism to become high end NFL starters, I’m struggling to come up with the examples of high end athletes that struggled to play the position in college and suddenly figured it out in the NFL. Like, who is the analogy for Ad Mitchell as an all-time RAS player that wasn’t great in college, not drafted highly, and went on to be a top player at his position? Of the top 50 all time RAS, the best I have is maybe Vincent Jackson who was picked in the second round. Maybe Christian Watson becomes that guy. But there are a lot more Chad Jacksons and Sammie Coates type players. I need to be convinced there is actually higher ceiling in guys like Ad Mitchell and Dez Walker, and not just perceived higher ceiling because of athleticism.
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Great post.

DK Metcalf comes to mind. Caught 39 and 26 balls his last two years at Ole Miss. Has 3 1000 yard seasons as a pro and has been above 900 yards all five years. But he is the exception not the rule. And while he is very good I’m not sure he’s ever been a top 10 guy.
 
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NextBigThing8184

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Oct 12, 2023
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ManicCompression said:
The entire post I'm responding to is about Dejean v. Polk and being forced to reach for a top 10 CB next year for vague reasons. I'm well aware that you need good corner depth to contend, but you also need good WR depth, so I don't understand why - if you have Polk and Dejean fairly equal on your board - you'd pick Dejean just to have a good second corner behind Gonzo, particularly when your high end talent at CB is much better than anything at WR.

Every team has a weakness. If our weakness is secondary depth, then I'm ecstatic, because that's easily addressable with draft picks (let alone trade and free agency). How do I know this? Because the team everyone is jizzing over - the Eagles - had a fucking terrible secondary and they've been able to get talent in the draft without really breaking a sweat.
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you think good secondary players are easy to address? Really? Not sure you’ve been watching much NFL the last decade+ if that’s your perception of the situation across the league.

Good corners are just as rare as good WR and for a team that needs to win with defense, it’s going to be an issue sooner rather than later.

you literally asked “why would this team need a CB” and then went on to say they can find one next year so I don’t understand why you’re shifting this back to purely Polk vs DeJean

They need a CB because they’re very thin at the position and it’s one of the most important positions on the roster. That need is unrelated to the need at WR.
 
Ferm Sheller

Ferm Sheller

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Auger34 said:
the quote was from Bob McGinn’s draft pieces, which came out a couple of weeks ago.

I think the scout means he’s dumb but I have no idea why
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Oh, hmmmmm . . . maybe he meant he plays dumb, i.e., does dumb things? Seems irrelevant otherwise.
 
naclone

naclone

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Reiss noted that Robinson had 3rd most penalties in SEC last season so I presume thats the context for the dumb comment
 
ManicCompression

ManicCompression

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NextBigThing8184 said:
you think good secondary players are easy to address? Really? Not sure you’ve been watching much NFL the last decade+ if that’s your perception of the situation across the league.

Good corners are just as rare as good WR and for a team that needs to win with defense, it’s going to be an issue sooner rather than later.

you literally asked “why would this team need a CB” and then went on to say they can find one next year so I don’t understand why you’re shifting this back to purely Polk vs DeJean

They need a CB because they’re very thin at the position and it’s one of the most important positions on the roster. That need is unrelated to the need at WR.
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Dude, look at the post I'm responding to. I'm not shifting anything. You're nitpicking some of my response to another poster to start a disagreement about something I don't care about.

Yes, it's really hard to find incredible corners. No, it is not hard to find corner depth if you choose to spend resources on that position. Those are two independent thoughts that a person can have.Not everyone in the secondary needs to be Sauce Gardner.
 
Ferm Sheller

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naclone said:
Reiss noted that Robinson had 3rd most penalties in SEC last season so I presume thats the context for the dumb comment
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Oh, that's not good. Hopefully, he can clean that up. Nothing worse than a guy who gets penalized a lot.
 
Ale Xander

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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Let’s get Tanner with 180, Brady with the next one for camp competition and BPA CB with the last one and let’s Cook.
 
BaseballJones

BaseballJones

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CB Marcellus Dial, South Carolina. No idea how good he is but this franchise (maybe it was just BB but we'll see) has a really good track record acquiring and developing corners. So I'm hopeful.
 
Ale Xander

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Don’t hate it
Good in zone, physical

he’s probably going to be a nickel or dimer here
 
tims4wins

tims4wins

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Is he more of a FS or CB? Decent RAS (8.97; ~100 out of ~1000, so top ~10%), especially for this point in the draft. Sub-4.5 40.
 
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