2023-24 Celtics

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,550
His is really an odd story. He seemed like one of the best players in college basketball, but his team went 9-22 and didn't even make the NIT. He shot 41% from 3 that one year in college, but also just 65% from the FT line. He didn't come out of nowhere (ESPN had him as the 7th ranked high schooler in his class in 2016), but in retrospect it's kind of baffling that he was the consensus #1 pick in that draft (someone once described his ceiling as James Harden but with defense, which always stuck with me). How often do #1 overall picks play for college teams that are that bad?
Not nearly as bad, but the year before Fultz, a #1 pick by the name of Ben Simmons went 19-14 and missed the tournament.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,861
Imaginationland
Not nearly as bad, but the year before Fultz, a #1 pick by the name of Ben Simmons went 19-14 and missed the tournament.
Yeah, that's also problematic. Very on brand for the Sixers of that era to not give a shit about whether or not a player could contribute to winning games (yes, both guys were consensus #1s. Still).
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,861
Imaginationland
Horford starting tonight in place of White.

This isn't all that surprising considering there's a pretty big difference between him and the guys behind him, but it says (at least to me) that starting is more important to him than getting the same role every night. This isn't a bad thing (I like Horford to keep thinking of himself as a starting level player, so long as he is fine with not starting most nights), and the team is flexible enough that whenever one of the usual 5 starters are inactive, it's nice that Horford can step right in.

I thought it was pretty interesting that the team last year was clearly invested in having Brogdon come off the bench every single game, even when one or more of the usual starters were sitting (Brogdon came off the bench for all 67 of his games, while Hauser/Pritchard combined for 11 starts)
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,806
Melrose, MA
124-114 over a Nets team missing a bunch of starters. I'll save my negative thoughts for the hot takes thread.
  • Tatum with a 32-11 double double
  • Horford started and did not have counting stats but was a team high +29 in 30 minutes
  • KP shot 8-10 on his way to a 22-7 game
  • Jrue came 1 rebound short of a triple double. Didn't shoot well (6-15) but scored 18 points with 10 assists and 9 rebounds.
  • Brown also shot poorly (2-11 from three) but did score 23
In the first half, the bench really sucked, but they came on in the late 3rd early 4th and played some tough defense that made a difference.

The best bench player in this game was, oddly enough, Luke Kornet, who scored 11 points on 5-5 shooting and had 7 rebounds in 15 minutes.
 
Last edited:

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
50,490
124-114 over a Nets team missing a bunch of starters. I'll save my negative thoughts for the hot takes thread.
  • Tatum with a 32-11 double double
  • Horford started and did not have counting stats but was a team high +29 in 30 minutes
  • KP shot 8-10 on his way to a 22-7 game
  • Jrue came 1 rebound short of a triple double. Didn't shoot well (6-15) but scored 18 points with 10 assists and 9 rebounds.
  • Brown also shot poorly (2-11 from three) but did score 23
In the first half, the bench really sucked, but they came on in the late 3rd eanrly 4th and played some tough defense that made a difference.

The best bench player in this game was, oddly enough, Luke Kornet, who scored 11 points on 5-5 shooting and had 7 rebounds in 15 minutes.
Kornet also played some great defense.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
10,356
San Francisco
The best bench player in this game was, oddly enough, Luke Kornet, who scored 11 points on 5-5 shooting and had 7 rebounds in 15 minutes.
NOTHING ODD ABOUT IT HE IS A GOOD PLAYER.

Here are some things he is legitimately good at, not just for a backup big:

- Defending the rim. Last year guys shot 6.5% under expected against him at the rim. That is in the "very good rim protector" echelon.
- Finishing at the hoop. He has soft hands and does a nice job when guys get him the ball with an opening.
- Setting screens. He was #1 on the team in screen assists last year per 36 minutes (besides Vonleh who I don't count).
- Boxing out. Led the team in box outs per 36 last year.
- Getting rebounds. 2nd on the team last year in OREB% only to Timelord.

He is the same player this year. People going crazy that a bench guy had a bad three game stretch. The same happens for every bench guy, but the first N games are always magnified.
 

timelysarcasm

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2010
1,757
Los Angeles by way of Roxbury
NOTHING ODD ABOUT IT HE IS A GOOD PLAYER.

Here are some things he is legitimately good at, not just for a backup big:

- Defending the rim. Last year guys shot 6.5% under expected against him at the rim. That is in the "very good rim protector" echelon.
- Finishing at the hoop. He has soft hands and does a nice job when guys get him the ball with an opening.
- Setting screens. He was #1 on the team in screen assists last year per 36 minutes (besides Vonleh who I don't count).
- Boxing out. Led the team in box outs per 36 last year.
- Getting rebounds. 2nd on the team last year in OREB% only to Timelord.

He is the same player this year. People going crazy that a bench guy had a bad three game stretch. The same happens for every bench guy, but the first N games are always magnified.
I hear what you're saying, but he was also slow and ineffective in the preseason as well - looked like a boat anchor out there, especially defensively. I think it was fair to have some concerns. Glad to see him (and Hauser) get off the schneids and shut some of us up.

Scal mentioned it on the broadcast, and I agree - Kornet really needs to catch the ball high and finish. Any time he's given a bounce pass or something, he looks like it's the first time he's seen a basketball. He got some good high passes tonight and made the undersized Nets pay.

Definitely missed DWhite tonight, but this team is extremely deep and even on off nights shooting (33% from 3, under 50% FG) they can win these kinds of games in a variety of ways.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
10,356
San Francisco
Scal mentioned it on the broadcast, and I agree - Kornet really needs to catch the ball high and finish. Any time he's given a bounce pass or something, he looks like it's the first time he's seen a basketball. He got some good high passes tonight and made the undersized Nets pay.
This will surprise some, but his finishing efficiency around the hoop is right around where Timelord's was. Obviously he isn't bringing the spectacular alley oop radius, but when you get the ball on his hands he is very very efficient.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,293
No White.

I'd say the letdown alert has been elevated.
Pretty impressive to come out of a flat spot on the road with a double digit win. This was a game that many playoff teams lose. I'm not sure when our first loss comes. This team man.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
10,356
San Francisco
they are already one of the best defenses in the league. I think the offensive explosion has been so rapid that people are confusing the new normal with guys not "bringing it" on defense.

league wide offense was up like 3 ppp last year which is an insane jump, and it looks even higher this year.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,902
they are already one of the best defenses in the league. I think the offensive explosion has been so rapid that people are confusing the new normal with guys not "bringing it" on defense.

league wide offense was up like 3 ppp last year which is an insane jump, and it looks even higher this year.
The defensive effort was not good tonight. They weren’t stopping dribble penetration all night. They were giving up a ton of good looks on the perimeter. It’s not a big deal. They need to conserve their energy and keep guys healthy. It wasn’t a great effort but their offense is so good that it didn’t matter. I can’t wait to see what this defense is capable of come playoff time. There is definitely another gear coming.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
21,122
Santa Monica
Pretty impressive to come out of a flat spot on the road with a double digit win. This was a game that many playoff teams lose. I'm not sure when our first loss comes. This team man.
Do they lose that game last season?

Love how they are using KP to attack mismatches at the rim.

The defensive effort was not good tonight. They weren’t stopping dribble penetration all night. They were giving up a ton of good looks on the perimeter. It’s not a big deal. They need to conserve their energy and keep guys healthy. It wasn’t a great effort but their offense is so good that it didn’t matter. I can’t wait to see what this defense is capable of come playoff time. There is definitely another gear coming.
Tatum is gathering MVP heat, but his perimeter defense can be a lot better.

I agree, the other gear with this team is definitely on the defensive side of the ball
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
20,024
Somewhere
One thing about the game tonight is that it felt like the Celtics were experimenting with their approach a little bit. During the Tatum and the bench run in the 4th, Tatum was hanging back while Pritchard was bringing up the ball and initiating the offense. I recall one possession where Tatum got the ball and it stuck with him (he missed) but mostly he was a decoy out there. Guessing this was by design, definitely atypical for him.

Then at the end they turned on the afterburners and dusted the Nets. Reminiscent of what the Bulls used to do to the Celtics during the ML days.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
50,490
You mentioned it in the game thread but 100% spot on. One of the few guys who brought it on D tonight.
I did? Go ahead and point to the half dozen of my 98 posts where I might have lauded him. And Hauser who looks like a better all around player out the gate.

Back to Luke, he feels like a really serviceable third big. He is stout (Wemby may see the Kontest at some point) and he plays with energy. I know that role has been a source of concern around these parts.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
28,245
Saskatoon Canada
I have watched all the games and most of the preseaon

+
#1 this seems like Joe's team now. Whereas last year he seemed to be putting out fires and reacting, he seems to be in control, and trusting his process. He is playing the bench and not panicking. I read all I can get on the Cs and the noise about his staff, CAssell in particular is really positive.

Jrue is the best point guard the Cs have had since Rondo. No tonly is he really good he has exceptional feel for the game. His PNR )as ascreener too) game is elite. He is the opposite of the bad things about Amrcus (he actuallypasses up early 3s to drive and create) and is close to Marcus strengths (D, toughness) to make him a huge upgrade. I can see why coaches love this guy.
Porzingis is a legit scorer and a better than expected on D. Still worry about him in PNR D vs top teams. As good as Rob was as roller he is much better, and his shooting has allowed Tatum and Jrue to post up and bully smaller checks.
Tatum seems a level better. Now they haven't come close to losing, but I don't recall any of the awful body language that characterized bad stretches in the past. He is much more deliberate and calm. I cannot express how much I love him in the low block. He reminds me of Bird the way he shoots over really athletic 6'8 guys.
I like Brissett he is bargain basement Grant Williams. His energy and D stopped the bleeding tonight, even if he did miss shots.
Hauser and Kornet are adequate, which all is that is needed when your starters are unstoppable.
They have really good rolls, Brown scores in transition, Tatum is the man in 1/4 court
Jrue and Porzingis facilitate by getting ball into the paint off the bounce or catch, and both shoot it well enough to give Tatum space. The last two years the O ws great when somebody was going off, but they are scoring at an ungodly rate and the points are looking easy.

-
Brown at times seems to really wants his points and force shots. I worry he wants number to justify his money.
Pritchard seems abit lost, and is trying to do too much. Some times your strength is your weakness. The kid has overacheived his entire life, He has done what seemed impossible time and again. But, he may have reached a point where he needs to simply do what is expected. Pressure the ball, don't turn it over, make 3s.

-
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,332
around the way
Pretty impressive to come out of a flat spot on the road with a double digit win. This was a game that many playoff teams lose. I'm not sure when our first loss comes. This team man.
Word.

It wasn't even that they seemed flat like prior years. Just seemed like the defensive communication and rotations was glitchy and that they were hurrying the offense too much, the latter resulting in a bit of default to iso ball. On offense they got caught up at times in some of the ASG/AAU mentality that Brooklyn was throwing out there, but then they'd snap out of it after a run and start sharing, passing, swinging, etc.

The passing has been off the charts awesome. This team indeed.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,550
The defensive effort was not good tonight. They weren’t stopping dribble penetration all night. They were giving up a ton of good looks on the perimeter. It’s not a big deal. They need to conserve their energy and keep guys healthy. It wasn’t a great effort but their offense is so good that it didn’t matter. I can’t wait to see what this defense is capable of come playoff time. There is definitely another gear coming.
Yeah, I basically don't pay attention at this point when a good NBA defense has regular season letdowns. It simply doesn't mean anything, if you have seen them consistently be able to turn it on.

124 points on 15-45 from 3 is pretty dang impressive. They're way less make-or-miss this year.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,902
Yeah, I basically don't pay attention at this point when a good NBA defense has regular season letdowns. It simply doesn't mean anything, if you have seen them consistently be able to turn it on.

124 points on 15-45 from 3 is pretty dang impressive. They're way less make-or-miss this year.
Yup. Porzingis and Holiday have raised the ceiling of this team and Tatum keeps getting better. KP is an absolute handful and the 2 man game with him is so fun to watch. He was hitting everything during warm ups. Just a really good shooting stroke. I actually thought he competed pretty well on defensive end too. Brooklyn made some tough shots.

This team is so good that it’ll be game over early on days where the bench shoots well.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,550
Yup. Porzingis and Holiday have raised the ceiling of this team and Tatum keeps getting better. KP is an absolute handful and the 2 man game with him is so fun to watch. He was hitting everything during warm ups. Just a really good shooting stroke. I actually thought he competed pretty well on defensive end too. Brooklyn made some tough shots.

This team is so good that it’ll be game over early on days where the bench shoots well.
KP was good on defense, but the rest of the team was allowing a ton of dribble penetration. Shrug.

PP definitely needs to settle down and focus on finding his shot. Agree with @reggiecleveland that he's trying to do way too much, instead of accepting who he is and why he got paid.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,902
KP was good on defense, but the rest of the team was allowing a ton of dribble penetration. Shrug.

PP definitely needs to settle down and focus on finding his shot. Agree with @reggiecleveland that he's trying to do way too much, instead of accepting who he is and why he got paid.
Yeah PP had a rushed shot early that proved to be a little ominous. He needs to let the shots come in the normal flow of the offense. I did watch him in warm ups too and he had someone contest his shot on every 3 point attempt, clearly a focal point given he has to deal with that in games. He made over half of them, I think. The form is great - just needs to settle down. Too bad there isn’t more of a creator on the second unit that can create open looks for him off the ball.
 

Jakarta

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2020
287
Yeah PP had a rushed shot early that proved to be a little ominous. He needs to let the shots come in the normal flow of the offense. I did watch him in warm ups too and he had someone contest his shot on every 3 point attempt, clearly a focal point given he has to deal with that in games. He made over half of them, I think. The form is great - just needs to settle down. Too bad there isn’t more of a creator on the second unit that can create open looks for him off the ball.
He almost always plays with either Jrue or White and at least one of Tatum/KP. There’s enough creation there for him that he doesn’t need to force it.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,806
Melrose, MA
I suppose I'm asking for too much, but I didn't like to see the letdown and I didn't like to see how much the struggles in this game resembled last season's struggles.

Here's a weird stat that says a lot about this game. With under 2 minutes to go in the third quarter, Sam Hauser had a pair of back to back steals. These were the first 2 Celtic steals of the game. They opened with 34 straight minutes without one and finished the game with 4. They also had 6 blocks in the game: three coming early in the first quarter and only one total in the second and third quarters combined.

Brooklyn's defense played aggressively and had some success throwing double teams at Tatum, in ways that looked pretty similar to what Miami did to Celtics deficient ballhandlers.

Also, with Holiday here and playing well, why are we defauling to having Tatum bring the ball up late in games? I guess it worked.

With 5:09 left in the half, Brooklyn was trailing by only one point, and the Celtics finally tuned it on, outscoring Brooklyn by 11 points (21-10) over the rest of the half. This was the starters after the bench had struggled. But, then they came out flat in the third quarter (another 2022-23 problem), allowing Brooklyn to cut the lead to 3 with a 13-4 run that made it 74-71 with 8:15 left in the third. After this the Celtics tightened up their defense and maintained their 3 point lead to the end of the quarter. In the 4th, Brooklyn managed to cut the lead to 1 with 7:47 to go, outscoring Brooklyn 28-19 the rest of the way.

The bench was terrible in the first half, but pretty effective without putting numbers up in the second half. Except for Kornet, who was effective in both halves. In Q4, Mazzulla let Kornet and Hauser play pretty deep into the quarter before going to all starters for the stretch run. (They each started the quarter, played the first 6:50, and were each +8. Kornet had 5 points, 3 rebounds and a steal, while Hauser had nothing but a missed 3, but they played well. In his 4 minutes in Q3, Hauser hit a 3, had a rebound, and had the first 2 Celtic steals of the game.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,895
Hingham, MA
I suppose I'm asking for too much, but I didn't like to see the letdown and I didn't like to see how much the struggles in this game resembled last season's struggles.

Here's a weird stat that says a lot about this game. With under 2 minutes to go in the third quarter, Sam Hauser had a pair of back to back steals. These were the first 2 Celtic steals of the game. They opened with 34 straight minutes without one and finished the game with 4. They also had 6 blocks in the game: three coming early in the first quarter and only one total in the second and third quarters combined.

Brooklyn's defense played aggressively and had some success throwing double teams at Tatum, in ways that looked pretty similar to what Miami did to Celtics deficient ballhandlers.

Also, with Holiday here and playing well, why are we defauling to having Tatum bring the ball up late in games? I guess it worked.

With 5:09 left in the half, Brooklyn was trailing by only one point, and the Celtics finally tuned it on, outscoring Brooklyn by 11 points (21-10) over the rest of the half. This was the starters after the bench had struggled. But, then they came out flat in the third quarter (another 2022-23 problem), allowing Brooklyn to cut the lead to 3 with a 13-4 run that made it 74-71 with 8:15 left in the third. After this the Celtics tightened up their defense and maintained their 3 point lead to the end of the quarter. In the 4th, Brooklyn managed to cut the lead to 1 with 7:47 to go, outscoring Brooklyn 28-19 the rest of the way.

The bench was terrible in the first half, but pretty effective without putting numbers up in the second half. Except for Kornet, who was effective in both halves. In Q4, Mazzulla let Kornet and Hauser play pretty deep into the quarter before going to all starters for the stretch run. (They each started the quarter, played the first 6:50, and were each +8. Kornet had 5 points, 3 rebounds and a steal, while Hauser had nothing but a missed 3, but they played well. In his 4 minutes in Q3, Hauser hit a 3, had a rebound, and had the first 2 Celtic steals of the game.
Are steals the type of stat that is consistent from game to game? Or is it something more like 3 point shooting percentage where over a larger sample it normalizes, but there is a lot of variance from game to game?

I didn't watch much last night - I was watching the Bruins - so I can't comment on the C's defensive effort / intensity / performance. Just curious on how steals tend to flow.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,550
I suppose I'm asking for too much, but I didn't like to see the letdown and I didn't like to see how much the struggles in this game resembled last season's struggles.

Here's a weird stat that says a lot about this game. With under 2 minutes to go in the third quarter, Sam Hauser had a pair of back to back steals. These were the first 2 Celtic steals of the game. They opened with 34 straight minutes without one and finished the game with 4. They also had 6 blocks in the game: three coming early in the first quarter and only one total in the second and third quarters combined.

Brooklyn's defense played aggressively and had some success throwing double teams at Tatum, in ways that looked pretty similar to what Miami did to Celtics deficient ballhandlers.

Also, with Holiday here and playing well, why are we defauling to having Tatum bring the ball up late in games? I guess it worked.

With 5:09 left in the half, Brooklyn was trailing by only one point, and the Celtics finally tuned it on, outscoring Brooklyn by 11 points (21-10) over the rest of the half. This was the starters after the bench had struggled. But, then they came out flat in the third quarter (another 2022-23 problem), allowing Brooklyn to cut the lead to 3 with a 13-4 run that made it 74-71 with 8:15 left in the third. After this the Celtics tightened up their defense and maintained their 3 point lead to the end of the quarter. In the 4th, Brooklyn managed to cut the lead to 1 with 7:47 to go, outscoring Brooklyn 28-19 the rest of the way.

The bench was terrible in the first half, but pretty effective without putting numbers up in the second half. Except for Kornet, who was effective in both halves. In Q4, Mazzulla let Kornet and Hauser play pretty deep into the quarter before going to all starters for the stretch run. (They each started the quarter, played the first 6:50, and were each +8. Kornet had 5 points, 3 rebounds and a steal, while Hauser had nothing but a missed 3, but they played well. In his 4 minutes in Q3, Hauser hit a 3, had a rebound, and had the first 2 Celtic steals of the game.
I'm somewhat curious: what is your regular season expectation of NBA teams and players?
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,902
Are steals the type of stat that is consistent from game to game? Or is it something more like 3 point shooting percentage where over a larger sample it normalizes, but there is a lot of variance from game to game?

I didn't watch much last night - I was watching the Bruins - so I can't comment on the C's defensive effort / intensity / performance. Just curious on how steals tend to flow.
Think it’s a combination of defensive intensity/aggressiveness and also some randomness. They got a lot of steals first 3 games but last 2 games only Horford has a steal from the starting lineup. Holiday only has 1 all year so some positive regression is surely coming there.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,806
Melrose, MA
Are steals the type of stat that is consistent from game to game? Or is it something more like 3 point shooting percentage where over a larger sample it normalizes, but there is a lot of variance from game to game?
Games with 4 or fewer steals, for the whole Brad era:

2023-24: 1 of 5 (20%)
2022-23: 20 of 82 (24%) reg season, 8 of 20 (40%) playoffs (Mazzulla year 1)
2021-22: 9 of 82 (11%) reg season, 6 of 24 (25%) playoffs (the Ime/finals year)
2020-21: 11 of 72 (15%) reg season, 1 of 5 (20%) playoffs
2019-20: 8 of 72 (11%) reg season, 3 of 17 (18%) playoffs
2018-19: 5 of 82 (6%) reg season, 4 of 9 (44%) playoffs (this was the year Kyrie blew up before playoffs)
2017-18: 14 of 82 (17%) reg season, 5 of 19 (26%) playoffs
2016-17: 10 of 82 (12%) reg season, 2 of 18 (11%) playoffs
2015-16: 2 of 82 (2%) reg season, 0 of 6 (0%) playoffs
2014-15: 4 of 82 (5%) reg season, 1 of 4 (25%) playoffs
2014-14: 11 of 82 (13%) reg season, no playoffs

Last year stands out in comparison to the other years.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,293
I suppose I'm asking for too much, but I didn't like to see the letdown and I didn't like to see how much the struggles in this game resembled last season's struggles.

Here's a weird stat that says a lot about this game. With under 2 minutes to go in the third quarter, Sam Hauser had a pair of back to back steals. These were the first 2 Celtic steals of the game. They opened with 34 straight minutes without one and finished the game with 4. They also had 6 blocks in the game: three coming early in the first quarter and only one total in the second and third quarters combined.

Brooklyn's defense played aggressively and had some success throwing double teams at Tatum, in ways that looked pretty similar to what Miami did to Celtics deficient ballhandlers.

Also, with Holiday here and playing well, why are we defauling to having Tatum bring the ball up late in games? I guess it worked.

With 5:09 left in the half, Brooklyn was trailing by only one point, and the Celtics finally tuned it on, outscoring Brooklyn by 11 points (21-10) over the rest of the half. This was the starters after the bench had struggled. But, then they came out flat in the third quarter (another 2022-23 problem), allowing Brooklyn to cut the lead to 3 with a 13-4 run that made it 74-71 with 8:15 left in the third. After this the Celtics tightened up their defense and maintained their 3 point lead to the end of the quarter. In the 4th, Brooklyn managed to cut the lead to 1 with 7:47 to go, outscoring Brooklyn 28-19 the rest of the way.

The bench was terrible in the first half, but pretty effective without putting numbers up in the second half. Except for Kornet, who was effective in both halves. In Q4, Mazzulla let Kornet and Hauser play pretty deep into the quarter before going to all starters for the stretch run. (They each started the quarter, played the first 6:50, and were each +8. Kornet had 5 points, 3 rebounds and a steal, while Hauser had nothing but a missed 3, but they played well. In his 4 minutes in Q3, Hauser hit a 3, had a rebound, and had the first 2 Celtic steals of the game.
Your first paragraph is interesting. You claim that you didn't see the letdown....then go on about the team not getting steals, the bench playing terrible, and the team coming out flat in the 2H. I agree with all those occurrences...that's precisely what you'd expect in a letdown game.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,966
I don't know where to find stats on this, but it seems to me that PP and to a lesser extent Hauser makes a much higher percentage of his shots in home games, and that he's pretty lousy at away games.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,815
The Celtics were down a starter and playing a road game against an opponent that had this game circled. Had every making of a trap game that affects every single team in the league. Last season Denver lost to Detroit and San Antonio, as an example.

Steals are a bit overrated. Turnovers can come in other ways, including forced passes out of bounds, airballed shots (KP caused at least 3 in the 4th quarter, although a couple may have been blocks), shot clock violations, and even missed shots (Nets missed 10 more shots than Boston).

Despite the flatness, the team picked it up second half of the final quarter; Nets were down by 1 with 7:47 left in the game, and were outscored 28-19 the rest of the way. And 5 of those 19 points came in the last minute garbage time and one came off of a cheap T called on Horford for hanging on the rim. Part of the reason the game was as close as it was had to do with Jaylen Brown's 2-11 from 3. JB had some good looks that rimmed out, which happens to the best of shooters some nights.

Tatum is fine bringing up the ball to center court, because he soon handed it off to Holiday who made some good things happen; Jrue really makes a difference in those late game situations.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,806
Melrose, MA
Your first paragraph is interesting. You claim that you didn't see the letdown....then go on about the team not getting steals, the bench playing terrible, and the team coming out flat in the 2H. I agree with all those occurrences...that's precisely what you'd expect in a letdown game.
I said I “didn’t like to see” the letdown, not that I didn’t see it. I also said that I liked what the bench did in the second half even though the numbers were only there for Kornet.
 

Montana Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 18, 2000
9,194
Twin Bridges, Mt.
The defensive effort was not good tonight. They weren’t stopping dribble penetration all night. They were giving up a ton of good looks on the perimeter. It’s not a big deal. They need to conserve their energy and keep guys healthy. It wasn’t a great effort but their offense is so good that it didn’t matter. I can’t wait to see what this defense is capable of come playoff time. There is definitely another gear coming.
Derrick White childbirth syndrome. He was noticeably missed on the perimeter last night.

Back to Luke, he feels like a really serviceable third big. He is stout (Wemby may see the Kontest at some point) and he plays with energy. I know that role has been a source of concern around these parts.
During the first half of last season Luke really did a good job of getting his feet under him and contributing. He learned, grew into and did a good job in his role. Then Rob came back and everything changed as Kornet rightly saw inconsistent minutes and there was not much of a place for him.

This year I’m hoping that he settles into a role he is comfortable with and provides consistency as the 3rd big. Last night was a great start for him and was at a time when it was needed since Al started.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
21,122
Santa Monica
Regular-season NBA games give us clues.
After 1-2 months of play, we can start coming up with some hypotheses.
By the All-Star break, CJM should be coming to conclusions on roles/rotations.

The most interesting clue last night was Luke Kornet showed some life.
Did Luke just post #s against a small Nets lineup? or can he be active/usable against back-up NBA 5s?
What we need now is CJM to give Kornet 10-12mpg to figure out if he can be that 3rd Center. We have to see a few months of energy from him in that elevated role.

Not thrilled with the on-ball pressure, but its the regular season. Credit to CJM, he is trying to add a little with PP showing full-court. Getting up under guys & going over screens is bruising/hard work. So I don't blame the starters for not doing it against a depleted Brooklyn Nets. I'm 100% confident Jrue/JAYs will turn up the ball pressure in games/situations that matter.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 10, 2017
6,185
Yeah, I basically don't pay attention at this point when a good NBA defense has regular season letdowns. It simply doesn't mean anything, if you have seen them consistently be able to turn it on.

124 points on 15-45 from 3 is pretty dang impressive. They're way less make-or-miss this year.
The fact that the whistles were quite Nets-favored yet the Cs got to the line 27 times highlights how well they adapted to getting the best shot, even while putting up "enough" three-point attempts.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
23,257
Pittsburgh, PA
This will surprise some, but his finishing efficiency around the hoop is right around where Timelord's was. Obviously he isn't bringing the spectacular alley oop radius, but when you get the ball on his hands he is very very efficient.
My issue with him is getting it in those very hands. He seems to fumble layoff passes, entry passes, cut passes, sometimes even lobs, at a frustratingly high rate. Even if he collects it on the second or third grasp, the time advantage is gone then. I'd love for that to be an area where he grows - I think Horford has gotten better with his hands than when he first arrived in the league - but Kornet very badly needs to grow in that area, imo.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,550
I said I “didn’t like to see” the letdown, not that I didn’t see it. I also said that I liked what the bench did in the second half even though the numbers were only there for Kornet.
Obviously no one likes to see letdowns, but how many are acceptable over 82 games?

If the answer is "zero", you're implicitly saying that you want a group of guys to redline the car for 6 months, and THEN play 4 intense playoff series.

The 2021-22 Celtics looked tired by the 2nd round of the playoffs, just from putting in that mental effort for 3 months.

The Warriors won 73 that way, almost lost in the WCF, lost in the Finals.....and then never tried it again, even with a much better KD team.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
8,190
The Cs didn’t turn the Nets over for the first 34 minutes of this game, until Hauser victimized Sharpe twice to end the third. The Nets turned the ball over three times in the fourth, two by Walker, and one by Dinwiddie. The five Nets starters averaged around 37 minutes in this game and only turned it over once. I guess that’s one of the benefits of a spread, iso offense.

A win is a win. It would have been great to watch another steamroller effort, but maybe this uneasy performance is what the team needed to let them know they need to bring the same energy and attention to detail every game. A little better FT and three point shooting by the Nets and this one could easily have been a loss.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,550
Tatum is fine bringing up the ball to center court, because he soon handed it off to Holiday who made some good things happen; Jrue really makes a difference in those late game situations.
Yes, although it was more intentional than this. Jrue had Cam Thomas on him, and the Nets were giving the switch, so they just kept using that to get Tatum on Cam. After Tatum cooked him a few times, the Nets put 2 on the ball, and then Jrue did his thang.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,806
Melrose, MA
Jrue, BTW, is making some passes that multiple Celtic players aren’t expecting and aren’t ready for. Even Al. As they figure it out this should be good.
 

Dahabenzapple2

Mr. McGuire / Axl's Counter
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,959
Wayne, NJ
The Cs didn’t turn the Nets over for the first 34 minutes of this game, until Hauser victimized Sharpe twice to end the third. The Nets turned the ball over three times in the fourth, two by Walker, and one by Dinwiddie. The five Nets starters averaged around 37 minutes in this game and only turned it over once. I guess that’s one of the benefits of a spread, iso offense.

A win is a win. It would have been great to watch another steamroller effort, but maybe this uneasy performance is what the team needed to let them know they need to bring the same energy and attention to detail every game. A little better FT and three point shooting by the Nets and this one could easily have been a loss.
Celtics missed a bunch of open threes in the second half or it might have been a bigger margin. Looked like the Celtics were playing at about 70-80% intensity at the most.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,806
Melrose, MA
Obviously no one likes to see letdowns, but how many are acceptable over 82 games?

If the answer is "zero", you're implicitly saying that you want a group of guys to redline the car for 6 months, and THEN play 4 intense playoff series.

The 2021-22 Celtics looked tired by the 2nd round of the playoffs, just from putting in that mental effort for 3 months.

The Warriors won 73 that way, almost lost in the WCF, lost in the Finals.....and then never tried it again, even with a much better KD team.
I somewhat question the premise here (that the team must either be in unsustainable max effort mode or flat).

Also, Tatum played 41 minutes last night, less than a minute off of his season high, in a season where he is averaging just 35 minutes. Over the long haul, what is more taxing on Tatum - a blowout in which he sits for the 4th or a nailbiter where he or the the team is struggling and he has to go 41?

Anyway, my answer is not zero but I also wasn't expecting a letdown game so 1) early in the season and 2) characteristic of last season's letdown games. The starters pulled it together and kicked ass to close out the second half 21-10, then came out flat in the third (as they often did last year) and let the lead fall to three before battling the rest of the way.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
6,264
Lynn
So obviously net rating and on/off don’t mean much five games in, other than showing what’s happened on the court in the SSS. But when it’s just a continuation of what happens every season, you can take a bit more from it. Obviously it’s a ridiculous number that will normalize, but god damn. I’ll use nba.com, and CTG, which filters out garbage time.

Nba.com
Net with Tatum in: +25.1
Net with Tatum sitting: +1.0
On/off: +24.1
Next closest Celtics player is White, at +20.8.

CTG
Net with Tatum in: +26.9
Net with Tatum sitting: -5.3
On/off: +32.1
Next closest Celtics player is White, at +22.4
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,815
I somewhat question the premise here (that the team must either be in unsustainable max effort mode or flat).

Also, Tatum played 41 minutes last night, less than a minute off of his season high, in a season where he is averaging just 35 minutes. Over the long haul, what is more taxing on Tatum - a blowout in which he sits for the 4th or a nailbiter where he or the the team is struggling and he has to go 41?

Anyway, my answer is not zero but I also wasn't expecting a letdown game so 1) early in the season and 2) characteristic of last season's letdown games. The starters pulled it together and kicked ass to close out the second half 21-10, then came out flat in the third (as they often did last year) and let the lead fall to three before battling the rest of the way.
Denver lost to the Timberwolves by 21 in their 5th game. And the Heat and the Suns have lost 4 games apiece. Early season letdown games are not uncommon. And the Celtics pulled away late in the 4th by dominating the last 7 minutes of game play.

Anyway, looking forward, it gets interesting. Monday in Minnesota, Wednesday in Philly, and Friday is a tournament game at home against the Nets. Does Coach Joe try to save the team's energy for Philly or for the tournament game Friday? And then team's first B2B completes Saturday at home against the Raptors. My guess is that one of these 4 will end the unbeaten streak.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,699
NOTHING ODD ABOUT IT HE IS A GOOD PLAYER.

Here are some things he is legitimately good at, not just for a backup big:

- Defending the rim. Last year guys shot 6.5% under expected against him at the rim. That is in the "very good rim protector" echelon.
- Finishing at the hoop. He has soft hands and does a nice job when guys get him the ball with an opening.
- Setting screens. He was #1 on the team in screen assists last year per 36 minutes (besides Vonleh who I don't count).
- Boxing out. Led the team in box outs per 36 last year.
- Getting rebounds. 2nd on the team last year in OREB% only to Timelord.

He is the same player this year. People going crazy that a bench guy had a bad three game stretch. The same happens for every bench guy, but the first N games are always magnified.
Say what you will about all in one advanced stats but DARKO indicates Kornet as a third big is about as good as a couple of the guys the Celtics were starting in recent years.
73417