2022-23 NBA Game Thread

Jimbodandy

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Wiseman has been next-level bad this year from an impact POV. Per DARKO, he's down more than a whole DARKO (hard to do) and is currently on the Kevin Knox and Pippen Jr. level. Not where you want to be.

G League and change of scenery is probably a good idea.

edit: given the limited minutes, of course the advanced metrics are imperfect
 

Kliq

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Wiseman has had such a hard development period for a player. Between injuries, abbreviated college stint, and having to earn minutes on a team that plays a very sophisticated style and is aiming to win championships, it's hard to really say what kind of prospect he is at the moment. Those hardships might be masquerading talent that will show itself when he finally gains some experience and is able to play regularly, or it might have stunted his growth so much that he will never turn into much of an asset.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Wiseman has had such a hard development period for a player. Between injuries, abbreviated college stint, and having to earn minutes on a team that plays a very sophisticated style and is aiming to win championships, it's hard to really say what kind of prospect he is at the moment. Those hardships might be masquerading talent that will show itself when he finally gains some experience and is able to play regularly, or it might have stunted his growth so much that he will never turn into much of an asset.
I don’t think it’s hard at all to see his regression over the past month and being forced to earn minutes is normally an effective path toward making leaps. From Wiseman’s draft class, LaMelo Ball overcame as much (I’d argue much more but being generous here) and already has an ASG under his belt. That’s what development looks like…..not being banished to the G-League in Year 3 after a healthy offseason while being given opportunities to earn rotation minutes and failing.
 

Kliq

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I don’t think it’s hard at all to see his regression over the past month and being forced to earn minutes is normally an effective path toward making leaps. From Wiseman’s draft class, LaMelo Ball overcame as much (I’d argue much more but being generous here) and already has an ASG under his belt. That’s what development looks like…..not being banished to the G-League in Year 3 after a healthy offseason while being given opportunities to earn rotation minutes and failing.
LaMelo is a much better player than Wiseman and the Warriors would be better off if they took LaMelo, but their paths to being drafted and early stages of their career are so wildly different it isn't worth comparing the two. LaMelo had some zany stuff happen to him in high school, but he also played a full year of pro ball in Australia, then got drafted by a bad team that was happy to play him a ton of minutes, and never had any major injuries.
 

Euclis20

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I don’t think it’s hard at all to see his regression over the past month and being forced to earn minutes is normally an effective path toward making leaps. From Wiseman’s draft class, LaMelo Ball overcame as much (I’d argue much more but being generous here) and already has an ASG under his belt. That’s what development looks like…..not being banished to the G-League in Year 3 after a healthy offseason while being given opportunities to earn rotation minutes and failing.
There's no way to other way to characterize the situation than this. Markelle Fultz had shown far more by this point in his career, and has similar prospects going forward.
 

Sam Ray Not

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There's no way to other way to characterize the situation than this. Markelle Fultz had shown far more by this point in his career, and has similar prospects going forward.
That's the situation now; how predictive it is different question, one that can't be definitively answered right now. Fwiw, the characterization you bolded also applies to Jordan Poole's second healthy season, at the same age (and probably to a bunch of other guys; JP is just fresh in my mind, for obvious reasons). Fultz seems like a particularly poor comp, given Wiseman is not a 6'-3" PG who cannot shoot, nor (AFAIK) has he had any Sax/Sasser-ian issues with performance anxiety. He's just a huge, raw, athletic dude who needs to get used to the speed and patterns of the game, and has nowhere near the needed reps in which to do so. I'd be shocked if he ends up a superstar, but given his size, athleticism, and (reportedly) high character and work ethic, I don't think a career somewhere in the Myles Turner / Ayton / JaVale range is that unreasonable to ponder.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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As a regular Warriors viewer, I too am not ready to call Wiseman a bust though the data to date tells you the Warriors are right to make this move. Wiseman isn't a complete stiff and shows flashes of the player they thought he would be. Waiting for him to develop may be too expensive for Lacob's tax budget but I can easily see other teams dreaming on him.

Also, as we have seen time and again, bigs can be slow to develop.

From today's Athletic article on his move to the G League by Anthony Slater:

But the better comparison may be an early career Kevon Looney. I caught Looney outside his locker postgame on Monday night and he reminded me that he was sent to the G League for three separate stints his first three NBA seasons.

“I played probably 10 games my first year,” Looney said. “Six or seven my second year. Then probably two my third year.”
 

snowmanny

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Are you sure? Because Nick Wright not only predicted the Mavs will win the title, he also said they will have the best offense in NBA history.
Just to follow up on this opening night post: according to this ranking, the difference between the number one team (Boston) and the number two team (Denver) is larger than the difference between the number two team and the number eight team. And Dallas is ninth.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency
 

Euclis20

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That's the situation now; how predictive it is different question, one that can't be definitively answered right now. Fwiw, the characterization you bolded also applies to Jordan Poole's second healthy season, at the same age (and probably to a bunch of other guys; JP is just fresh in my mind, for obvious reasons). Fultz seems like a particularly poor comp, given Wiseman is not a 6'-3" PG who cannot shoot, nor (AFAIK) has he had any Sax/Sasser-ian issues with performance anxiety. He's just a huge, raw, athletic dude who needs to get used to the speed and patterns of the game, and has nowhere near the needed reps in which to do so. I'd be shocked if he ends up a superstar, but given his size, athleticism, and (reportedly) high character and work ethic, I don't think a career somewhere in the Myles Turner / Ayton / JaVale range is that unreasonable to ponder.
His career isn't over (Darko played for 10 years), but I don't see the Poole comp, beyond that they are both Warrior 1st round picks who played in the G league. Injury or no, there's a big difference between year 2 and year 3. Additionally the Warriors didn't have a pressing need for Poole at that time - Curry was back and playing at an MVP level, but the team didn't look like a title contender. They absolutely need young size right now (and hope to compete for a title), and Wiseman is falling flat on his face. Fultz isn't a comp, other than both guys looking like massive draft busts. Comparing Wiseman to Poole (or Looney) kind of misses the point - if Wiseman had been drafted with the 29th overall pick instead of the 2nd, nobody would bat an eye on this, because we'd know his odds of being in the NBA in 5 years are 50-50 at best. Those guys beat the odds, guys sent down to the G league in year 3 don't have a great track record.

Turner and Ayton were productive from day 1 (Turner started 30 games his rookie year for a playoff team while Ayton averaged 16 and 10 shooting .585 from the floor), and just as importantly, they were actually on the court for most of their first few seasons. Maybe those guys are the upside possibility for Wiseman in a few years, but the Warriors need the help NOW while Curry is still MVP caliber. That upside looks incredibly far away at this point.

Javale is a different kind of story - Javale at his best would be nice, but it's with good reason that he's changed teams 9 times in his career. If he hadn't lucked his way into two titles with the Durant/Steph Warrios, his career highlights would literally just be a blooper reel.

*edit - Who is the best player to play in the G league in year 3 or later? Here's a list from 2021 with the most successful NBA players to ever play in the G league:

https://clutchpoints.com/top-five-most-successful-nba-players-who-played-in-the-g-league

Poole would undoubtedly be on an updated version of that list. Of that group, Danny Green is the only one to even play on the G league in year 2. Everyone else spent time there as a rookie, and that was it.
 
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Kliq

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Brooklyn's guards are just total turnstiles on defense and the lack the rim protection to help them out at all. The Lakers and the Nets are very similar in that LeBron/AD and Durant/Kyrie (whenever he comes back) can get theirs and it doesn't matter because the rest of the cast is bad at both ends of the floor.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The Kings!!
I’ve been saying since they were 0-4 that this is a good team. Fox came into the season in shape for first time since pre-Covid, probably about 12-15 lbs lighter than last year at this time. The Sabonis pickup last year and adding Huerter were two huge holes filled while the 4th pick was landing a young starter no matter who they selected.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fox>>>>>>Simmons

Say it with me folks
Still boggles my mind that Simmons continues to be played out of position. One of the better passers, playmakers and creators with the ball…..hey, let’s play him off the ball. Head hurts trying to comprehend.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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SoSH's best kept secret Jakob Poetl is now pumping up his trade value with a career high 31 points on 14-17 shooting as well as 12 boards midway through the fourth in PDX with the Spurs up by six.

Also, caught a Clippervision stream of the always entertaining LAC @ Dallas matchup. Luka is a sniper but besides that, I liked the shooting bubbles (percentages) as well as the other features of that stream. I am curious if others share that view but its cool, even if it increases the "no-no-no" impulse.
 

Kliq

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Still boggles my mind that Simmons continues to be played out of position. One of the better passers, playmakers and creators with the ball…..hey, let’s play him off the ball. Head hurts trying to comprehend.
He sucks, admit it.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He sucks, admit it.
He’s never not been a Top-25 player in the league when playing on the ball. I don’t think he’ll get back there as his game/body/passion never evolved and others have passed him but if you want to optimize his production…..play to his strengths rather than minimizing his strengths.
 

Swedgin

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As a regular Warriors viewer, I too am not ready to call Wiseman a bust though the data to date tells you the Warriors are right to make this move. Wiseman isn't a complete stiff and shows flashes of the player they thought he would be. Waiting for him to develop may be too expensive for Lacob's tax budget but I can easily see other teams dreaming on him.

Also, as we have seen time and again, bigs can be slow to develop.

From today's Athletic article on his move to the G League by Anthony Slater:
The key distinction being that Looney was the 30th pick in the draft, not the 2nd, with an average salary of 1.2M, not 9.9M.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The key distinction being that Looney was the 30th pick in the draft, not the 2nd, with an average salary of 1.2M, not 9.9M. Though he could be like Looney in having his 4th year option declined at this rate (unlikely I acknowledge - probably gets traded ala Bagley before then).
Slater and Kevon made the comparison, not me. There is no debating the "bust" label for Golden State - the only point is that he may still be a very good player down the road. Its not a base case and it his present unproductive state sucks for the Warriors for a variety of reasons.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Slater and Kevon made the comparison, not me. There is no debating the "bust" label for Golden State - the only point is that he may still be a very good player down the road. Its not a base case and it his present unproductive state sucks for the Warriors for a variety of reasons.
Wiseman said upon reporting to the G-League that he doesn’t view this as a demotion. Yeah he doesn’t seem to get it.

In other NBA news, Aaron Nesmith is out there for the Pacers doing Aaron Nesmith things…..on both ends. This guy continues to torment me (see gambling thread).
 

128

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In other NBA news, Aaron Nesmith is out there for the Pacers doing Aaron Nesmith things…..on both ends. This guy continues to torment me (see gambling thread).
I thought Nesmith might thrive, or at least find his footing, in another setting where the expectations for the team weren't as high. Apparently I was wrong.
 

BigSoxFan

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Thunder and Shai G are interesting (42 points in a win vs Wizards)
Love where they’re headed. Shai is a star. Giddey was a nice pick. Poky seems to be getting better. Jalen Williams already playing meaningful minutes. Chet comes back next year along with likely another lotto pick. And they have a million picks coming in the next few years along with tons of cap space.
 

benhogan

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Mark Jackson just claimed Klay Thompson was the 2022 playoffs scoring leader...

someone turn the mic off
 
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Wiseman said upon reporting to the G-League that he doesn’t view this as a demotion. Yeah he doesn’t seem to get it.

In other NBA news, Aaron Nesmith is out there for the Pacers doing Aaron Nesmith things…..on both ends. This guy continues to torment me (see gambling thread).
He needs to meditate or something. His mental game is so fried. It’s hard not to feel bad for him given how hard he seems to be trying. This isn’t James Young, or some other flameout. He really appears to be putting in the work and it’s bearing nothing.
 

Jimbodandy

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Love where they’re headed. Shai is a star. Giddey was a nice pick. Poky seems to be getting better. Jalen Williams already playing meaningful minutes. Chet comes back next year along with likely another lotto pick. And they have a million picks coming in the next few years along with tons of cap space.
They do have a lot to hope on. I'm afraid that Giddey might never turn into a good player, but Poku is surprising me with his improvement already. If Chet is for real, with all of their picks, they could turn into something real.
 

HomeRunBaker

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They do have a lot to hope on. I'm afraid that Giddey might never turn into a good player, but Poku is surprising me with his improvement already. If Chet is for real, with all of their picks, they could turn into something real.
What would make you feel Giddey will never turn into a good player? He just had one of the best 19-yr old seasons we’ve ever seen against grown men. What’s his floor…..a rich man’s Rubio?….and that’s only if he goes on the Ben Simmons developmental curve.
 
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128

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Love where they’re headed. Shai is a star. Giddey was a nice pick. Poky seems to be getting better. Jalen Williams already playing meaningful minutes. Chet comes back next year along with likely another lotto pick. And they have a million picks coming in the next few years along with tons of cap space.
At what point does OKC turn some of those picks into a high-level veteran or two to complement the kiddie corps? Isn't that, or shouldn't it be, the next step?
 

BigSoxFan

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At what point does OKC turn some of those picks into a high-level veteran or two to complement the kiddie corps? Isn't that, or shouldn't it be, the next step?
Yup. That’s the next step, which is probably the hardest part. They have their foundational star. They now need a secondary star or quasi-star, preferably one who can help shoulder the scoring load. I think they’ll start to look for that as soon as this offseason since they’re already showing meaningful growth.

With Shai locked up through 2027, they have some time but it’s certainly not easy finding that missing piece or two.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Thunder and Shai G are interesting (42 points in a win vs Wizards)
Their second best player turning out to be a wife-beater and probably never playing again will do that.
Charlotte actually drafted SGA, and then swapped him to the Clips for Miles Bridges [the wife-beater]. Sometimes, the best moves are the ones you don't make....

Has SGA taken the crown of "Best Canadian" in the NBA? Pre-injury I would have said Jamal Murray, but I think SGA has passed him and Wiggins.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Their second best player turning out to be a wife-beater and probably never playing again will do that.
Wait, stop. You don’t think Bridges will ever play in the league again? That’s a pretty hot take, no?
 

Jimbodandy

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What would make you feel Giddey will never turn into a good player? He just had one of the best 19-yr old seasons we’ve ever seen against grown men. What’s his floor…..a rich man’s Rubio?….and that’s only if he goes on the Ben Simmons developmental curve.
From a scouting POV, kid has everything. But honestly, he got a lot of run on this team (as he should) and is flat in most areas and getting worse in many. His handle is so sloppy that he makes Jaylen look like Shammgod with the ball. His shooting has improved a little, but it's still bad. Maybe his bad defense has more to do with his surroundings than anything, but it's bad.

Rubio from an impact POV was a significantly better player from day 1 and every day since, like night and day, including old man Rubio.

I wouldn't bet against Giddey because his physical gifts are rare and awesome. But he's a long point guard who doesn't play defense, can't take care of the ball, and can't shoot (yet). And he's not improving in two of those three areas. His ORTG/DRTG is 98/112. His teammate Poku, whom I was not at all hot about, is trending up.
 

Euclis20

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That goes both ways though: Dubs unprotected picks/swaps are extremely valuable because the youth movement looks so bad.
The thing about acquiring young players, they don't automatically lose value if they are traded for Durant. Unless they are really far out, future GS picks immediately become far less valuable if traded for Durant. Both Durant and Curry are signed through 2026, maybe they age quickly but any picks between now and then aren't worth nearly enough to be a big part of a Durant deal.
 

lovegtm

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The thing about acquiring young players, they don't automatically lose value if they are traded for Durant. Unless they are really far out, future GS picks immediately become far less valuable if traded for Durant. Both Durant and Curry are signed through 2026, maybe they age quickly but any picks between now and then aren't worth nearly enough to be a big part of a Durant deal.
Sure--I'm assuming it would mostly be picks 2025 and later. Assuming that Durant and Curry decline heavily 3 years from now seems a safe bet, historically.
 

Euclis20

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Sure--I'm assuming it would mostly be picks 2025 and later. Assuming that Durant and Curry decline heavily 3 years from now seems a safe bet, historically.
Even assuming that's the case, the Nets can probably do a lot better Poole/Wiggins/Picks (which is basically the most they could be willing to offer).