2021 Pats: QB Options

soxhop411

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I think Brady winning a SB this season, causes BB, to go big at QB so he proves to everyone he can win (at least one) SB without Brady. (Probably Similar to Brady’s reasons for moving on from the pats)

and given the large amount. Of cap space we have this off-season (which doesn’t happen that often for this team). It’s the perfect offseason to do it.
 

E5 Yaz

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I think Brady winning a SB this season, causes BB, to go big at QB so he proves to everyone he can win (at least one) SB without Brady before BB retires.

and given the large amount. Of cap space we have this off-season (which doesn’t happen that often for this team). It’s the perfect offseason to do it.
There's only one go-big option out there
 

OurF'ingCity

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I think Brady winning a SB this season, causes BB, to go big at QB so he proves to everyone he can win (at least one) SB without Brady. (Probably Similar to Brady’s reasons for moving on from the pats)

and given the large amount. Of cap space we have this off-season (which doesn’t happen that often for this team). It’s the perfect offseason to do it.
I really don’t think BB thinks like this at all.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I think Brady winning a SB this season, causes BB, to go big at QB so he can prove he can (at least one) SB without Brady before BB retires.
What would lead anyone to think this is how Bill operates? He’s gonna wake up tomorrow and exclaim ‘NOW I will try to acquire a very good QB, that’s that!’? As if he has been passing up shots at a QB of that caliber for....reasons?

Bill is not looking to retire after decimating their assets to sell out at a single title shot or two, either. That isn’t his style.
 

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I think Brady winning a SB this season, causes BB, to go big at QB so he proves to everyone he can win (at least one) SB without Brady. (Probably Similar to Brady’s reasons for moving on from the pats)

and given the large amount. Of cap space we have this off-season (which doesn’t happen that often for this team). It’s the perfect offseason to do it.
I just don’t see Kraft authorizing the kind of money that it would take to land big free agents. There’s no certainty that there will be fans in the seats next season. I would bet they try to go with as little a cash outlay as they possibly can until they get some certainty on the revenue.
 

soxhop411

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I really don’t think BB thinks like this at all.
eh. I think like Brady he wants to prove he can win without each other.
What would lead anyone to think this is how Bill operates? He’s gonna wake up tomorrow and exclaim ‘NOW I will try to acquire a very good QB, that’s that!’? As if he has been passing up shots at a QB of that caliber for....reasons?

Bill is not looking to retire after decimating their assets to sell out at a single title shot or two, either. That isn’t his style.
Re the Bolded: I am mainly talking about drafting or trading for a QB that will be the starting QB day one. Pretty much every QB we drafted while Brady was here really only saw the field during garbage time or when Brady was hurt (or suspended in the case of Jimmy Garoppolo). So there was no reason to trade for or draft someone like Watson or Lamar because they wouldn’t see the field and we would end up trading them before they hit FA to at least recoup some value.

For example, Would Jimmy Garoppolo still be with the Patriots if Brady never got suspended (thus never getting the chance to prove he was capable of being a starting QB?)
 
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BigJimEd

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Re the Bolded: I am mainly talking about drafting or trading for a QB that will be the starting QB day one. Pretty much every QB we drafted while Brady was here really only saw the field during garbage time or when Brady was hurt (or suspended in the case of Jimmy Garoppolo). So there was no reason to trade for or draft someone like Watson or Lamar because they wouldn’t see the field and we would end up trading them before they hit FA to at least recoup some value.

For example, Would Jimmy Garoppolo still be with the Patriots if Brady never got suspended (thus never getting the chance to prove he was capable of being a starting QB?)
No, even assuming no team was willing to trade for him, Garoppolo likely would have left after the following season when he was a free agent. He would have been looking for a place where he had a better chance to compete for the starting job. The first point about Belichick looking for a QB that can start next season really has little to do with Brady winning last night. I think it depends on the who and the cost.


I just don’t see Kraft authorizing the kind of money that it would take to land big free agents. There’s no certainty that there will be fans in the seats next season. I would bet they try to go with as little a cash outlay as they possibly can until they get some certainty on the revenue.
I think Kraft lets Belichick do what he does and manage within the cap. Kraft may want to try to structure contracts a certain way with but I doubt he vetoes any signings or puts a hard limit on spending. As far as I know, Kraft is not having any cash flow issue so from a strictly business perspective, I'd expect him to take the long view. And with all teams facing a similar situation plus many in worse cap situations, free agents may need to be more willing to spread out a bonus payment.
 

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I just don’t see Kraft authorizing the kind of money that it would take to land big free agents. There’s no certainty that there will be fans in the seats next season. I would bet they try to go with as little a cash outlay as they possibly can until they get some certainty on the revenue.
This might be one of the worst Pats takes that I've ever seen here. If the sarcasm meter is off, my apologies.
 

jsinger121

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I just don’t see Kraft authorizing the kind of money that it would take to land big free agents. There’s no certainty that there will be fans in the seats next season. I would bet they try to go with as little a cash outlay as they possibly can until they get some certainty on the revenue.
If the Patriots don't pony up they ain't going to get good players. There is zero incentive to free agents to come to New England anymore unless its for the most money. The Patriots will most certainly have to over pay to land guys going forward because frankly I wouldn't come to New England if the money is equal somewhere else that is probably warmer weather and a better team.
 

reggiecleveland

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. BB needs to realize that QB is the most important position in the NFL and can’t continue to punt on the position and get cheap crappy options. It’s not how the NFL works anymore. To win in the league you pretty much need a top tier to elite QB.
Man that bolded phrase has me laughing. It is our 4th straight day of -30 up here in the GWN, and that lifted my spirits.
 

Salem's Lot

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This might be one of the worst Pats takes that I've ever seen here. If the sarcasm meter is off, my apologies.
How is it a bad take? What if 30% or 40% percent of people refuse vaccines and we don’t get to herd immunity by next season? We don’t know how much money they lost last year in gate receipts, concessions, sponsorships. They could be hemorrhaging money.
It’s a very uncertain business climate right now in that industry, and the Krafts are smart business people. And that’s not a backhanded jab at them.
I don’t think they will slash the payroll or anything, but expecting a big free agent splash given the economic climate is a little too much to ask of ownership.
They should be focusing on nailing the next 2-3 drafts and rebuilding the right way.
 

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How is it a bad take? What if 30% or 40% percent of people refuse vaccines and we don’t get to herd immunity by next season? We don’t know how much money they lost last year in gate receipts, concessions, sponsorships. They could be hemorrhaging money.
It’s a very uncertain business climate right now in that industry, and the Krafts are smart business people. And that’s not a backhanded jab at them.
I don’t think they will slash the payroll or anything, but expecting a big free agent splash given the economic climate is a little too much to ask of ownership.
They should be focusing on nailing the next 2-3 drafts and rebuilding the right way.
I'm all for focusing on nailing the drafts, but the burden of proof is on you to show examples of Kraft not investing money in anything. This is 98.5 talk.

He built a new stadium with his own money. He didnt buy a team plane; he bought two. He was mocked for the high price that he paid for the team in the first place.

As long as Kraft and Belichick are involved, they will spend the amount of money that makes sense for the football team. Sometimes, that's not up to the cap because value isn't there and rolling the cash is better. Sometimes they max a player at the highest value ever for position. Seriously the burden of proof is on you.
 

jsinger121

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I'm all for focusing on nailing the drafts, but the burden of proof is on you to show examples of Kraft not investing money in anything. This is 98.5 talk.

He built a new stadium with his own money. He didnt buy a team plane; he bought two. He was mocked for the high price that he paid for the team in the first place.

As long as Kraft and Belichick are involved, they will spend the amount of money that makes sense for the football team. Sometimes, that's not up to the cap because value isn't there and rolling the cash is better. Sometimes they max a player at the highest value ever for position. Seriously the burden of proof is on you.
The Patriots are also the second most valuable franchise behind the Cowboys. This isn’t the cheap Bengals we are talking about here. The Patriots have money.
 

Salem's Lot

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I'm all for focusing on nailing the drafts, but the burden of proof is on you to show examples of Kraft not investing money in anything. This is 98.5 talk.

He built a new stadium with his own money. He didnt buy a team plane; he bought two. He was mocked for the high price that he paid for the team in the first place.

As long as Kraft and Belichick are involved, they will spend the amount of money that makes sense for the football team. Sometimes, that's not up to the cap because value isn't there and rolling the cash is better. Sometimes they max a player at the highest value ever for position. Seriously the burden of proof is on you.
Like I said, not a knock on Kraft. I personally wouldn’t invest in anything entertainment related that I didn’t have to right now, but that’s probably my own bias as I hear moron after moron in my community talk about how they don’t want to get a vaccine. I probably just have no idea how financial issues at that level resolve themselves, and to guys as rich as Kraft it’s not a big deal, but to me, the stupidity of the general public right now scares the hell out of me. And I just don’t see a return to normal anytime soon. Hopefully I’m wrong on all levels.
 

Jimbodandy

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Like I said, not a knock on Kraft. I personally wouldn’t invest in anything entertainment related that I didn’t have to right now, but that’s probably my own bias as I hear moron after moron in my community talk about how they don’t want to get a vaccine. I probably just have no idea how financial issues at that level resolve themselves, and to guys as rich as Kraft it’s not a big deal, but to me, the stupidity of the general public right now scares the hell out of me. And I just don’t see a return to normal anytime soon. Hopefully I’m wrong on all levels.
Ah. Share your frustration there.

In terms of vaccinations, watch the counters. Percent vaccinated rises every day. More will get on the bandwagon. Roughly 9% in MA have dose 1 already, and we're below average in rollout.

As far as Kraft goes, it's precisely guys like him who can take risks in these unprecedented times. He has gone long on this franchise before. Until he shows us otherwise, there's no reason to think that he'll suddenly hedge imo.
 

NomarsFool

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In the NFL, doesn't every team pay about the same on their players due to the salary cap? It isn't like the NBA where some teams go way over the cap and pay luxury tax to everyone else (or to a lesser extent like the CBT in baseball).
 

5dice

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I'm all for focusing on nailing the drafts, but the burden of proof is on you to show examples of Kraft not investing money in anything. This is 98.5 talk.

He built a new stadium with his own money. He didnt buy a team plane; he bought two. He was mocked for the high price that he paid for the team in the first place.

As long as Kraft and Belichick are involved, they will spend the amount of money that makes sense for the football team. Sometimes, that's not up to the cap because value isn't there and rolling the cash is better. Sometimes they max a player at the highest value ever for position. Seriously the burden of proof is on you.
Agreed. I also think that they are marketing-smart and fully understand the turning point/inflection point they are at after riding the Brady experience a very long way.
Investing in the next big thing for fans to believe in has huge value aside from on-field performance. The backlash from entitled fans against both BB and the Krafts for this one down year tells them the speed at which they need to work to restore confidence as well as post-Covid marketing revenue streams, whether in-stadium or not.
 

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If the Patriots don't pony up they ain't going to get good players. There is zero incentive to free agents to come to New England anymore unless its for the most money. The Patriots will most certainly have to over pay to land guys going forward because frankly I wouldn't come to New England if the money is equal somewhere else that is probably warmer weather and a better team.
Well that and the chance to have the greatest coach in the history of the game highlight your talents and possibly but you in position to get a great contract when you leave.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Investing in the next big thing for fans to believe in has huge value aside from on-field performance. The backlash from entitled fans against both BB and the Krafts for this one down year tells them the speed at which they need to work to restore confidence as well as post-Covid marketing revenue streams, whether in-stadium or not.
To the extent you are saying that the Pats will overpay for the "next big thing" because of a perceived "backlash" from fans, I'm going to disagree with you pretty hard. That is not and will never be how BB operates, and if Kraft told him something like "I know you'd prefer to bring back Cam for another year and spend assets on other positions, but we need a better QB to get more butts back in the seats" I am guessing BB would just quit.
 

rodderick

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Well that and the chance to have the greatest coach in the history of the game highlight your talents and possibly but you in position to get a great contract when you leave.
I think Bill's way of coaching can make top tier free agents look elsewhere precisely for the opposite reason. With him it's all about the team and how you can contribute to winning, not necessarily shining individually. A guy like, say, Shaq Barrett would probably weigh the fact that Bill likely wouldn't let him pin his ears back and rush the passer on pretty much every down, which could depress his numbers.

Now, a talented player who feels like he hasn't gotten a shot or has been playing in the wrong position could certainly find getting coached by Bill extremely attractive. That's the kind of guy he has always been really successful in acquiring.
 

Shelterdog

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I think Bill's way of coaching can make top tier free agents look elsewhere precisely for the opposite reason. With him it's all about the team and how you can contribute to winning, not necessarily shining individually. A guy like, say, Shaq Barrett would probably weigh the fact that Bill likely wouldn't let him pin his ears back and rush the passer on pretty much every down, which could depress his numbers.

Now, a talented player who feels like he hasn't gotten a shot or has been playing in the wrong position could certainly find getting coached by Bill extremely attractive. That's the kind of guy he has always been really successful in acquiring.
Absolutely. Depends on the player and the position. Trent Brown and Kyle Van Noy have no regrets about their time but I'm not sure that it helped Chris Long's value.
 

Royal Reader

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Absolutely. Depends on the player and the position. Trent Brown and Kyle Van Noy have no regrets about their time but I'm not sure that it helped Chris Long's value.
Though it got the guy a ring in the twilight of his career. Not sure he'd have any regrets even if it did depress his market a little. IIRC he took less to come anyway.
 

Shelterdog

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Though it got the guy a ring in the twilight of his career. Not sure he'd have any regrets even if it did depress his market a little. IIRC he took less to come anyway.
Totally agree. And maybe for a guy like Long (or any football nerd/person likely to be in the media) just getting to be on the Pats for a season and seeing that team from the inside is an interesting life experience.
 

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I think many, if not most players, appreciate hard coaching on a winning team. It might be just a little bit harder to get guys to sign up for that during a rebuild, unless that is the best financial offer they get.

I think that is true even if they get to play for the coaching GOAT. Keeping a roster spot in the NFL is already a very stressful, competitive, grinding sort of environment.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Just go get Dak. Is he Brady? No. Is he a top QB you can build around? Yes.

Do it. feed my need for a big splash.
 

Jungleland

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Just go get Dak. Is he Brady? No. Is he a top QB you can build around? Yes.

Do it. feed my need for a big splash.
I've been wondering since it was clear Cam isn't the answer for 2021 let alone the next 5 years why there hasn't been a bit more dreaming on this. I understand conventional thinking is very good QBs aren't allowed to walk at 27/28, but the whole 'team plays hardball-player gets hurt-player forced to hit FA off a lost season' is one of the handful of scenarios where it's at least in the realm of possibility, right? Though with that said, I have a hard time imagining a guy willingly going from throwing Cooper-Lamb-Gallup to the Patriot WR corps, and to fix that and sign someone of Dak's caliber is a tall and expensive order.
 

Cellar-Door

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I've been wondering since it was clear Cam isn't the answer for 2021 let alone the next 5 years why there hasn't been a bit more dreaming on this. I understand conventional thinking is very good QBs aren't allowed to walk at 27/28, but the whole 'team plays hardball-player gets hurt-player forced to hit FA off a lost season' is one of the handful of scenarios where it's at least in the realm of possibility, right? Though with that said, I have a hard time imagining a guy willingly going from throwing Cooper-Lamb-Gallup to the Patriot WR corps, and to fix that and sign someone of Dak's caliber is a tall and expensive order.
I think it's mostly because the assumption is the Cowboys would slap the tag on him, it's what $24M or so this year? No way they let him walk if they can tag him.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I thought as a repeater franchise tag guy Prescott's tag would be $37 mil for Cowboys next year. Is that not the case? I agree absent the repeater he'd be at $24 or $26 mil depending on where cap landed
 

BigSoxFan

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I thought as a repeater franchise tag guy Prescott's tag would be $37 mil for Cowboys next year. Is that not the case? I agree absent the repeater he'd be at $24 or $26 mil depending on where cap landed
Yes, Dak would be $37.7M this year and like $54M in 2022 due to the repeater function.
 

PedroKsBambino

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That's my understanding, mandatory 20% increase. That is not undoable cost-wise for a QB for a year, but it makes it more painful (in terms of how you clear the space) to tag him than otherwise. I still suspect they'll try to get value out of him---and you'd think they'd just get a long-term deal done to be done with this annual dance---but the window for him just leaving certainly feels open to me at least a bit
 

BigSoxFan

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That's my understanding, mandatory 20% increase. That is not undoable cost-wise for a QB for a year, but it makes it more painful (in terms of how you clear the space) to tag him than otherwise. I still suspect they'll try to get value out of him---and you'd think they'd just get a long-term deal done to be done with this annual dance---but the window for him just leaving certainly feels open to me at least a bit
It's definitely not the lock you'd expect it to be. I don't know why Dallas doesn't just get it done. Zeke only has a couple of good years left and Cooper/Gallup/Lamb is a killer trio. Use the draft to improve the defense. It's pretty remarkable to me that Dak isn't signed up. I would 100% pay the going rate to get him on the Pats. He protects the ball well so I think he and BB would get along.
 

Cellar-Door

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I thought as a repeater franchise tag guy Prescott's tag would be $37 mil for Cowboys next year. Is that not the case? I agree absent the repeater he'd be at $24 or $26 mil depending on where cap landed
Ah good catch, forgot he was on the tag this year. Does make it more likely he could be available.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Agree that it’s not a lock that Dak returns to the Cowboys. But I see no way that he’d want to come to the Pats over the Cowboys, unless they offered him way more money or the Cowboys just didn’t give him a long-term offer at all (which is not Jerry Jones’s style).
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Is Dak actually good enough to be an asset with a ~$35-40m cap number in a world where the salary cap is in the $185m range (even assuming growth after this year)? I'm not convinced. I don't see him on the Mahomes, Russ, Watson talent level but he wants not only to be paid like those guys but to be paid like those guys despite Covid pushing the cap down.

It seems to me that the only scenario in which he leaves the Cowboys involves another team overpaying him. I don't really want the Patriots to be that team.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I think it's mostly because the assumption is the Cowboys would slap the tag on him, it's what $24M or so this year? No way they let him walk if they can tag him.
Dont care. Fork over the first round picks for him and sign him anyway. Cowboys only have about $30m in cap, and a lot of free agents and holes on their roster. Offer him $40m for the first season, give him a 7 year contract, front load the contract, and laugh all the way to a new franchise QB. We have a lot of holes, but I dont care. Gimme Dak.
 

tims4wins

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Is Dak actually good enough to be an asset with a ~$35-40m cap number in a world where the salary cap is in the $185m range (even assuming growth after this year)? I'm not convinced. I don't see him on the Mahomes, Russ, Watson talent level but he wants not only to be paid like those guys but to be paid like those guys despite Covid pushing the cap down.

It seems to me that the only scenario in which he leaves the Cowboys involves another team overpaying him. I don't really want the Patriots to be that team.
Yeah I'm in agreement with this. In a hypothetical world where the Pats can just sign Dak for something like 5/$175-200M, I'm not sure I'd sign up for that.
 

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Like I said, not a knock on Kraft. I personally wouldn’t invest in anything entertainment related that I didn’t have to right now, but that’s probably my own bias as I hear moron after moron in my community talk about how they don’t want to get a vaccine. I probably just have no idea how financial issues at that level resolve themselves, and to guys as rich as Kraft it’s not a big deal, but to me, the stupidity of the general public right now scares the hell out of me. And I just don’t see a return to normal anytime soon. Hopefully I’m wrong on all levels.
Not for nothing, but the vaccine is not a cure all either. I had 52 employees get the vaccine at my job in one shot. 24 had Covid within the next 10 days.

RE: fans; I would bet almost anything there will be fans in all football stadiums in fall 2021. Even NY is opening up 10% capacity in hockey/basketball arenas this month (2/23 on).

I still think the Patriots should offer whatever it takes to get Watson. Or try and pry Wilson away if he really wants out now too.
 

cleanturtle

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Not for nothing, but the vaccine is not a cure all either. I had 52 employees get the vaccine at my job in one shot. 24 had Covid within the next 10 days.
Vaccine isn't a cure all, agreed, but your anecdote doesn't suggest much given that it also takes ten days for the first shot to start being effective.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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Vaccine isn't a cure all, agreed, but your anecdote doesn't suggest much given that it also takes ten days for the first shot to start being effective.
Sorry, should have clarified these were folks getting their second dose. Should have also clarified that they "tested positive", not that they all had symptoms either.

Either way, I guess the main point is that you cannot wait for 70% + of the country to be vaccinated before things go back to normal, because there is a significant chance we never get to 70% anyhow, plus it isn't necessary in outdoor stadiums that hold 80k where you can easily socially distance and have reduced capacity at a bare minimum.
 

Average Reds

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Sorry, should have clarified these were folks getting their second dose. Should have also clarified that they "tested positive", not that they all had symptoms either.

Either way, I guess the main point is that you cannot wait for 70% + of the country to be vaccinated before things go back to normal, because there is a significant chance we never get to 70% anyhow, plus it isn't necessary in outdoor stadiums that hold 80k where you can easily socially distance and have reduced capacity at a bare minimum.
Not the thread for it. Stop.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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Bringing things back on track:

My reclamation project would definitely be Mariota over Wentz. What's would he cost to get from Oakland? 3rd or 4th?
 

Cellar-Door

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Bringing things back on track:

My reclamation project would definitely be Mariota over Wentz. What's would he cost to get from Oakland? 3rd or 4th?
Curious why? Wentz is interesting because he was bad last year but at one point was really good. Mariota was straight garbage for years and at no point was good
 

Manuel Aristides

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Curious why? Wentz is interesting because he was bad last year but at one point was really good. Mariota was straight garbage for years and at no point was good
This feels true but looking over the numbers I'm not so sure. Wentz's passing numbers are a little better overall, but you could argue Mariota's rushing makes up a significant chunk of it. Outside of Wentz's 2017, clearly the best year either guy has had, their PFF ratings are pretty similar too. I'd say it's close enough that the systems and surrounding talent introduce enough noise that it's an open question which one would perform better with the 2021 Pats. I think I'm with Time to Mo Vaughn here if only because Mariota is so much cheaper, both his contract and likely his acquisition cost.