2020 Pats: General/Non-QB Off-Season Discussion

BigSoxFan

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This 100%.

In my opinion....Belichick tells Kraft "it's him or me".

If Kraft jams Brady down his throat for a second time in a handful of years - BB is going to leave NE.

I'm guessing BB has that conversation "very" soon with Kraft --- because the job opening at MetLife Stadium would be an attractive one for Coach Hoodie.
None of this post makes any sense to me. Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing. Even if Kraft stepped in, it was obviously 100% the right move.

And Belichick is going to issue some kind of ultimatum so that he can coach and even worse QB with a roster that’s in even worse shape than New England’s?
 

Super Nomario

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Again, other than the OL not getting push on the goal line that one sequence (they *really* should have used some play-action there as Tennessee was completely selling out for the run...ugh), the last four games of the year (including playoffs), the OL has performed very well.

at Cin: 32 rushes, 175 yds (5.5 ypc), Cin with 2 sacks, 6 QB hits in 29 pass att
vs Buf: 35 rushes, 143 yds (4.1 ypc), Buf with 0 sacks, 4 QB hits in 33 pass att
vs Mia: 27 rushes, 135 yds (5.0 ypc), Mia with 1 sack, 3 QB hits in 29 pass att
vs Ten: 22 rushes, 98 yds (4.5 ypc), Ten with 0 sacks, 4 QB hits in 37 pass att
TOT: 116 rushes, 551 yds (4.8 ypc), App with 3 sacks, 17 QB hits in 128 pass att

That's really good offensive line play. Whatever issues they had earlier in the season, they pretty much cleaned up by season's end. The OL wasn't really the issue with them bowing out early this year. They run blocked pretty well (again, a few notable exceptions but that's gonna happen) and pass protected very well.
The run game was improved quite a bit down the stretch but the run blocking was awful last night. All their big runs were to the outside, and most gimmicky sweeps (White / Harry / Edelman were 4 for 33). The Roberts stuff and the tragic goal line sequence weren't aberrations; they couldn't run the ball up the middle to save their lives last night. Michel and Burkhead combined for 17 carries last night and three of them gained first downs (none in the second half).
 

BaseballJones

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By definition, there aren't reasonable expectations of big ifs working out.
I don't mean "big" as in "unlikely". I mean "big" as "hugely important". I don't think it's unreasonable to think the Pats could re-sign Thuney, for example. Do you?
 

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This 100%.

In my opinion....Belichick tells Kraft "it's him or me".

If Kraft jams Brady down his throat for a second time in a handful of years - BB is going to leave NE.

I'm guessing BB has that conversation "very" soon with Kraft --- because the job opening at MetLife Stadium would be an attractive one for Coach Hoodie.
Now THIS is a reasonable scenario that has a chance of playing out
 

Captaincoop

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None of this post makes any sense to me. Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing. Even if Kraft stepped in, it was obviously 100% the right move.

And Belichick is going to issue some kind of ultimatum so that he can coach and even worse QB with a roster that’s in even worse shape than New England’s?
Belichick is the greatest football mind of all time. He's not going to feel good about taking contradictory football orders from a boozy billionaire with his legacy on the line.

The Pats aren't winning a Super Bowl next year anymore than the Giants are. So control over the rebuild process matters.
 

BigSoxFan

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We have zero idea about Belichick’s evaluation of Brady. And, yes, the 2020 Pats are in much better shape than the 2020 Giants. Was that a serious comment?
 

lexrageorge

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This 100%.

In my opinion....Belichick tells Kraft "it's him or me".

If Kraft jams Brady down his throat for a second time in a handful of years - BB is going to leave NE.

I'm guessing BB has that conversation "very" soon with Kraft --- because the job opening at MetLife Stadium would be an attractive one for Coach Hoodie.
For the record, Kraft didn't jam Brady down Belichick's throat. The situation has been badly misreported over and over again.

Brady was already under contract for both the 2017 and 2018 seasons when Belichick decided to keep JG for the start of the 2017 season. From a salary cap perspective, keeping both QB's into 2018 was going to be almost impossible. About the only possibility was for the Pats to franchise JG, which would have crippled their cap for the 2018 season. The other choice was to potentially play hard ball with Brady and force a restructure. However, that become impossible once Brady had an MVP season in 2017.

And there was the small matter that both Brady and JG shared the same agent, a key factor that mediots like Shank and Volin could not comprehend.

Now, the prospective part of your post is on point.
 

Buck Showalter

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None of this post makes any sense to me. Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing. Even if Kraft stepped in, it was obviously 100% the right move.

And Belichick is going to issue some kind of ultimatum so that he can coach and even worse QB with a roster that’s in even worse shape than New England’s?
Fine - Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing.....but I'm sure the results in SF provide a stronger resolve for BB to say; "see? I told you a few years ago that JG was the person and the route to a transition that would have much success in the future. Trust my instincts here. It's time to move on."

It's long been whispered that BB wants to win / have a life without Brady. He's not fully in-control of this organization with TB12 around. Brady is an "iconic figure" (those are BB's words) and walks on water around Foxboro. The sooner that happens - and BB begins his quest to re-engineer this franchise for another run at success - the better for Belichick.

But I'm holding firm to my opinion......if Kraft vetoes BB's desires here.....we are looking at the end of BB as coach.
 

RedOctober3829

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What did Volin say?
At BB’s presser earlier this morning in his opening statement he said he appreciates the questions about the future but it’s less than 12 hours after the end of the season. Volin then proceeds to ask about Brady’s future, when he’d like to see a resolution, etc. Bill says ask it 50 different ways you’ll get the same answer. Then proceeds to ask him about his future.
 

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Belichick is the greatest football mind of all time. He's not going to feel good about taking contradictory football orders from a boozy billionaire with his legacy on the line.

The Pats aren't winning a Super Bowl next year anymore than the Giants are. So control over the rebuild process matters.
The Pats went 12-4 and were *one* point producing drive away from winning a playoff game. They have a two decade track record of attendIng to offseason needs. If Brady comes back there may be 3-4 teams that have better SB odds than the Pats. Come on.
 

amfox1

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Pats currently have 42mm in cap space (which takes into account Brady's 13.5mm cap hit) and the following roster:

QB - Stidham, Kessler
RB - Michel, White, Burkhead, Harris, Bolden, Develin (FB)
WR - Edelman, Sanu, Harry, Meyers
TE - LaCosse
OL - Wynn, Andrews, Mason, Cannon, Eluemanor (RFA), Froholdt, Cajuste/Cunningham
DL - Guy, Butler (RFA), Cowart
DE/OLB - Winovich, Wise, Simon, Hightower, Davis (RFA)/Rivers
ILB - Bentley
CB - Gilmore, Jackson, J.McCourty, J.Jones, Williams
S - Chung, Harmon, Brooks
ST - Gostkowski (K), Bailey (P), Cardona (LS), King, Bethel

+12 draft picks
+FAs

Possible 3.4mm+ cap savings (not suggesting they should be cut or restructured) - Hightower (8.8mm), Sanu (6.5mm), Cannon (5.2mm), Harmon (4.25mm), J.McCourty/Guy (3.8mm), White (3.6mm), Gostkowski (3.5mm), Andrews (3.4mm)
 

BigSoxFan

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Fine - Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing.....but I'm sure the results in SF provide a stronger resolve for BB to say; "see? I told you a few years ago that JG was the person and the route to a transition that would have much success in the future. Trust my instincts here. It's time to move on."

It's long been whispered that BB wants to win / have a life without Brady. He's not fully in-control of this organization with TB12 around. Brady is an "iconic figure" (those are BB's words) and walks on water around Foxboro. The sooner that happens - and BB begins his quest to re-engineer this franchise for another run at success - the better for Belichick.

But I'm holding firm to my opinion......if Kraft vetoes BB's desires here.....we are looking at the end of BB as coach.
It all depends on the evaluation of Brady and the other options. Only thing that really changes the calculus is if they think Stidham is ready to be the guy. Otherwise, you are choosing between Brady and a bunch of even crappier options.
 

Captaincoop

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Fine - Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing.....but I'm sure the results in SF provide a stronger resolve for BB to say; "see? I told you a few years ago that JG was the person and the route to a transition that would have much success in the future. Trust my instincts here. It's time to move on."

It's long been whispered that BB wants to win / have a life without Brady. He's not fully in-control of this organization with TB12 around. Brady is an "iconic figure" (those are BB's words) and walks on water around Foxboro. The sooner that happens - and BB begins his quest to re-engineer this franchise for another run at success - the better for Belichick.

But I'm holding firm to my opinion......if Kraft vetoes BB's desires here.....we are looking at the end of BB as coach.
Agree 100%.

I almost think it's the most likely scenario heading into the offseason. I don't trust Kraft to trust Bill.

And a 2020 Pats season with Brady and no Belichick...ugh.
 

Captaincoop

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It all depends on the evaluation of Brady and the other options. Only thing that really changes the calculus is if they think Stidham is ready to be the guy. Otherwise, you are choosing between Brady and a bunch of even crappier options.
Brady playing like a bottom half of the league QB at 20M is not hard to replace. You can change the whole look of the offense around the QB with more cap flexibility.

This isn't about 2020 exclusively. At some point they need to try to start building the next Super Bowl team. Brady probably isn't part of that equation if we're being real.
 

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It depends on your opinion of Trevor Lawrence.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brady playing like a bottom half of the league QB at 20M is not hard to replace. You can change the whole look of the offense around the QB with more cap flexibility.

This isn't about 2020 exclusively. At some point they need to try to start building the next Super Bowl team. Brady probably isn't part of that equation if we're being real.
Not sure I fully agree. If Antonio Brown had stopped tweeting, this was a SB calibre team. They won 12 games with a lot of stuff going wrong. The days of them being a presumptive favorite are gone but the days of them winning the AFCE and hosting at least 1 game may not be with some good drafting and FA signings.

You are right that the next QB has to be found at some point but I saw enough out of Brady this year to lead me to believe he can be a decent QB next year. He had a poor OL and 1 legitimate WR. I don’t know what people were expecting from him this year post AB.
 

Super Nomario

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This 100%.

In my opinion....Belichick tells Kraft "it's him or me".

If Kraft jams Brady down his throat for a second time in a handful of years - BB is going to leave NE.

I'm guessing BB has that conversation "very" soon with Kraft --- because the job opening at MetLife Stadium would be an attractive one for Coach Hoodie.
If the owner meddling in personnel is going to force Belichick out of NE, going to an organization where the owner's brother is the Senior Vice President of Player Personnel is a really, really curious move.
 

fiskful of dollars

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Re: The Andrews comments upthread.
Pulmonary emboli are caused by many factors...some are chronic (bad, like cancer, clotting disorders, etc.) others are episodic (bad, but transient like a splint, immobilization, exogenous estrogen+smoking, an injury, etc.). IF there is no underlying disease or genetic predisposition REQUIRING lifelong anti-coagulation (blood thinners) then Andrews should be cleared to resume all normal activities including football. IF he has a genetic clotting d/o such as Factor V Leiden or a protein S or protein C deficiency which increases his clotting risk...then it's a bit of uncharted territory. Many young people with these conditions are simply treated with low-dose aspirin. Not sure if that treatment would be appropriate for an NFL player. PEs are scary but once detected they are relatively easy to treat and prevent.

The issue w/ PEs is that we test for them a lot, we miss them a lot, and they can kill you where you stand. Gnarly. Don't smoke.
 

Buck Showalter

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It all depends on the evaluation of Brady and the other options. Only thing that really changes the calculus is if they think Stidham is ready to be the guy. Otherwise, you are choosing between Brady and a bunch of even crappier options.
I don't accept this at all. If Stidham isn't the guy.....we try the next option.

Plus, there have been a number of teams that have become very competitive (complete turnarounds?) with a young QB (definition being - first or second year from being drafted) that can run when flushed from the pocket / throw on the run / create a more dynamic offensive approach.

The future of this franchise isn't Lawrence or bust. That's lazy and shortsighted.
 

amfox1

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And, yes, the 2020 Pats are in much better shape than the 2020 Giants. Was that a serious comment?
Not my comment, and I agree with you on 2020 but ...

NYG have 70mm in cap room, #4 and #36 picks in the draft, some nice pieces on offense (Jones, Barkley, Hernandez, Shepard, Engram) and a defense that needs major work. For a guy like Belichick, the NYG may be an attractive opportunity if he can control the process.

It would mean that ownership would need to get rid of Gettlemen but my guess is that for Bill they would do it.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't accept this at all. If Stidham isn't the guy.....we try the next option.

Plus, there have been a number of teams that have become very competitive (complete turnarounds?) with a young QB (definition being - first or second year from being drafted) that can run when flushed from the pocket / throw on the run / create a more dynamic offensive approach.

The future of this franchise isn't Lawrence or bust. That's lazy and shortsighted.
Point me to where I said it’s Lawrence or bust.
 

BigSoxFan

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Not my comment, and I agree with you on 2020 but ...

NYG have 70mm in cap room, #4 and #36 picks in the draft, some nice pieces on offense (Jones, Barkley, Hernandez, Shepard, Engram) and a defense that needs major work. For a guy like Belichick, the NYG may be an attractive opportunity if he can control the process.

It would mean that ownership would need to get rid of Gettlemen but my guess is that for Bill they would do it.
Daniel Jones has done nothing to demonstrate that he’s a nice piece on offense. He fumbled the ball a million times last year and is the type of QB Belichick absolutely hates.

With that said, I do think the NYG are probably the only team Belichick would leave NE for.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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I do not see a scenario where Brady returns on a team friendly deal next season. His current deal tells me he was not looking to do another "good for the team" contract in 2020.

Not sure we need a farewell season with Brady and no weapons with the team going 8-8 because the Pats overpaid just to squeeze in one or two more seasons of TB12.

I am hoping he retires at this point and we look to find the next QB in the draft or through FA.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think he's responding to multiple posters. Someone else said Lawrence
Got it. Response made it seem like it was based on something I said. I obviously agree we’re not getting Lawrence unless it’s the nuclear situation where both Belichick and Brady leave.
 

amfox1

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In my opinion....Belichick tells Kraft "it's him or me".

If Kraft jams Brady down his throat for a second time in a handful of years - BB is going to leave NE.

I'm guessing BB has that conversation "very" soon with Kraft --- because the job opening at MetLife Stadium would be an attractive one for Coach Hoodie.
I'd also point out that Kraft has a replacement team in-house in Cesario/McDaniels, so it would behoove both Belichick and Kraft to resolve this quickly before plan B moves on to other jobs.
 

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I thought Brady played very well last night. He threw the ball well. He threw a few darts and a couple of nice deep balls. He moved in the pocket well. From my vantage point, I think he showed (and my untrained, unprofessional eyes) that he can still be a top tier QB next season with a complimentary offense around him. I know it was only 1 game and the O was pretty anemic for the second half of the season but I wonder if he played himself back onto the NEP next season. Just a random thought.
 

Bongorific

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Really seems like the hole at TE is among the biggest issues, both in the passing game (especially red zone) and in run-blocking. Not that anyone's going to throw any sympathy our way, but it's torture after all those years of Gronk to watch Kittles and some of these other guys who are basically Gronk-lites terrorize the league. And while there does seem to have been a trend toward cultivating and targeting that type of player, they obviously don't grow on trees.
Agree completely. They did a nice job towards the end of last year and into the playoffs of developing into a “power” offense that complimented an aging quarter back that can still make throws when needed and a mediocre receiving core.

This offense would be completely different with Devlin and Kittle.

I feel like every year we talk about how many FA they are going to lose and what a rebuild is needed, but that’s really the same for every team that doesn’t have an above average cost controlled QB. While it seems a full offense rebuild is necessary, and impossible, they might only be a player or two away from an above average offense again.
 

8slim

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I thought Brady played very well last night. He threw the ball well. He threw a few darts and a couple of nice deep balls. He moved in the pocket well. From my vantage point, I think he showed (and my untrained, unprofessional eyes) that he can still be a top tier QB next season with a complimentary offense around him. I know it was only 1 game and the O was pretty anemic for the second half of the season but I wonder if he played himself back onto the NEP next season. Just a random thought.
I watch A LOT of NFL football. And to my eye, Brady is still better than the vast majority of QBs in the league. Bolster the OL, get him a real WR and pass catching TE, and LFG.
 

Jimbodandy

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This thread is not as depressing as I expected it to be.

I look forward to the Brady extension, resigning some of the other FAs, letting some go, a draft in which we trade down twice and don't pick that tall midwest receiver that you all want, and everyone losing their minds about how we don't have enough skill guys. Skipping forward to next December, I also look forward to the kvetching about how getting the 2 seed wasn't good enough, and why didn't Belichick go for it on 4th down from his own 45 in that Miami game.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'd also point out that Kraft has a replacement team in-house in Cesario/McDaniels, so it would behoove both Belichick and Kraft to resolve this quickly before plan B moves on to other jobs.
The replacement plan is the guy who has organized mediocre drafts and an offensive coordinator who didn't have his best season?
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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I watch A LOT of NFL football. And to my eye, Brady is still better than the vast majority of QBs in the league. Bolster the OL, get him a real WR and pass catching TE, and LFG.
This all sounds great on paper, but how are you making the cap numbers work to achieve this? Brady is not coming back for free and the days where every FA wants to play for a discount in NE for a chance to win are over. These upgrades cost money and I am not sure how this is done given the numbers.
 

E5 Yaz

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This all sounds great on paper, but how are you making the cap numbers work to achieve this? Brady is not coming back for free and the days where every FA wants to play for a discount in NE for a chance to win are over. These upgrades cost money and I am not sure how this is done given the numbers.
I think this is the point that is being ignored thus far into the discussion. It goes hand in hand with the earlier comment about how slow the Patriots seem next to other teams.

The league is in the midst of an evolution; one that the Patriots have not embraced. It's quite possible that we look back at the SB win over the Rams as the last stake in the ground for a certain type of success in football.

BB-style defenses shut down the Bills, both iterations of the Rams and (in some respects) the 2007 Patriots. But there are too many teams now that can come at you offensively in a variety of ways -- and it's time for the Patriots to adapt or perish
 

heavyde050

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None of this post makes any sense to me. Brady won 2 SBs since the Jimmy G thing. Even if Kraft stepped in, it was obviously 100% the right move.

And Belichick is going to issue some kind of ultimatum so that he can coach and even worse QB with a roster that’s in even worse shape than New England’s?
100% this.
 

Captaincoop

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I hope Brady does what makes him happy next year. If that's going to LA and trying to show the world what he can do without Bill, so be it. I honestly wish him the best. Whenever he's done, he will be remembered as a Patriot and as the GOAT.

If he wants to come back to NE at a discount (I really doubt he does), then giddyup.
 

heavyde050

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This thread is not as depressing as I expected it to be.

I look forward to the Brady extension, resigning some of the other FAs, letting some go, a draft in which we trade down twice and don't pick that tall midwest receiver that you all want, and everyone losing their minds about how we don't have enough skill guys. Skipping forward to next December, I also look forward to the kvetching about how getting the 2 seed wasn't good enough, and why didn't Belichick go for it on 4th down from his own 45 in that Miami game.
Sign me up.
 

BigSoxFan

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This all sounds great on paper, but how are you making the cap numbers work to achieve this? Brady is not coming back for free and the days where every FA wants to play for a discount in NE for a chance to win are over. These upgrades cost money and I am not sure how this is done given the numbers.
Simple answer is they need some draft success/luck. I’m not burying Harry yet but things are probably looking a lot different if they draft Deebo or AJ Brown. You are right that FA dollars will be tight. Many improvements have to come from draft. The Sanu trade really hurts in this regard.
 

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Tom Brady lost them zero games in 2019. How many other teams have QBs that lost them games? The absence of a tight end, the shittiest receiving core he's had in possibly forever, and Sony Michel being "meh" are far larger problems than Brady. Hell you replace Sanu with someone who can catch the ball and two league average tight ends with Brady and you probably at the very least have a home playoff game in 2021.
 

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The Patriots traded JG in October of 2017. That year the Pats went to the Super Bowl but lost. The following year they went to the Super Bowl and won. This year they made the playoffs and lost in the WC round.

Brady hasn’t won two SB since the JG trade. He’s BEEN to two but won “only” one.
 

Jimbodandy

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The Patriots traded JG in October of 2017. That year the Pats went to the Super Bowl but lost. The following year they went to the Super Bowl and won. This year they made the playoffs and lost in the WC round.

Brady hasn’t won two SB since the JG trade. He’s BEEN to two but won “only” one.
I cannot even fathom what Jimmy G has to do with the Patriots 2020 offseason, so clearly I have the right people on ignore.
 

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Andrews's return is no sure thing (and we got the best out of Karras that we could have hoped), and the best O-lineman this season is a FA.

We can talk about weapons on offense all we want, but it's the line that needs some certainty
 

BaseballJones

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I cannot even fathom what Jimmy G has to do with the Patriots 2020 offseason, so clearly I have the right people on ignore.
I guess for some folks that was a moment where they get like the Pats made a wrong decision that is now about to bite them in the ass. A poster pointed out that NFW because Brady has won two SBs since then. While I agree with the “not a bad move to keep Brady” line of thinking, there was a reasonably substantial factual error in the post that needed correcting.
 

BaseballJones

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Andrews's return is no sure thing (and we got the best out of Karras that we could have hoped), and the best O-lineman this season is a FA.

We can talk about weapons on offense all we want, but it's the line that needs some certainty
This is 100% right. Last year’s OL was dominant. This year’s...not so much. In fact downright terrible at times. Better at the end but still...needs significant improvement.
 

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Here are the top 5 QB contracts for next season. I am not seeing Tom accept a number below the top 5 given he had a contract that prevented the team from using the franchise tag on him next season.

1 $35M (Wilson)
2 $34M (Roethlisberger)
3 $33.5M (Rodgers)
4 $32M (Wentz)
5 $30M (Ryan)
 

Jimbodandy

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I guess for some folks that was a moment where they get like the Pats made a wrong decision that is now about to bite them in the ass. A poster pointed out that NFW because Brady has won two SBs since then. While I agree with the “not a bad move to keep Brady” line of thinking, there was a reasonably substantial factual error in the post that needed correcting.
Thanks for the context.

Just assumed that it was some kind of Godfather 2/Dangerous Liaisons conspiracy about how Brady got Belichick and Ernie Adams is going after Jonathan or something else 98.5.

This is the 2020 thread, so JG seems inapplicable unless we have some idea that he's on the block imo.
 

lexrageorge

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I guess for some folks that was a moment where they get like the Pats made a wrong decision that is now about to bite them in the ass. A poster pointed out that NFW because Brady has won two SBs since then. While I agree with the “not a bad move to keep Brady” line of thinking, there was a were reasonably numerous substantial factual errors in the post that needed correcting.
Fixed a couple of typos for you.