2020 Pats: General/Non-QB Off-Season Discussion

shoosh77

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Irrational game-thread carryover posting so apologizing in advance.

Brady is good enough for one or two more years. Unless you plan a major overhaul of the entire offense, bring him back and get him some toys and oline health.

On def, what happens with High and DMac will be major points. But they desperately need a Chandler Jones like find in the draft who can get home and finish on the pass rush.

I haven’t looked at any cap matters yet but it feels like the rest of the league has moved to speed in the passing game and we have a bunch slow possession types across the field. That’s why AB was such a promising acquisition.
 

Devizier

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From OTC, which may have incorrect information:

47 players under contract
$49M in cap room

Free agents:
Brady
McCourty
Van Noy
Collins
Karras
Thuney
Shelton
Slater
Dorsett
Ebner
Folk
Newhouse
Watson
Ferentz
Calhoun
Roberts
Butler
Davis
Eleumunor
Bethel
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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This was an old team that's going to be older next year.

I'm all for bringing Tom Brady back but I think its naive to believe that its just a matter of getting him some help and being right back among the NFL's elite. The defense is old and the offense doesn't have any playmakers. We've had bad-to-mediocre drafts for four years in a row and its taken a serious toll on young roster talent. Its fixable, but probably not in one offseason.
 

lexrageorge

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The chickens from some recent bad drafts have finally come home to roost, especially on the offense. Wynn appears to be a JAG, and Harry and Michel are well less than that. Hard to know what can be counted on from them going forward, but those picks and the stupid Deflategate penalty were costly.

Obviously, the first priority this offseason will be to resolve the Brady situation. Fortunately, the team will know fairly early on his status. The tricky aspect will be getting the salary cap numbers to work. Assuming the team can work out a Brady return, then they need to find a way to address the skill positions on offense as the first priority. A close second priority will be OL. Then DL.

Of the UFA's, I assume most will be gone. McCourty will either resign or retire. Like to see Van Noy stick around, but not if the bidding gets out of hand; ditto for Collins, who seemed to peter out during the second half of the season. Thuney will likely get an outsized offer from another team. Slater and Ebner can probably be brought back at reasonable cost. Karras and the rest are fungible (or worse).

I'm not optimistic that all the issues can be addressed. But it's worth a shot if Brady comes back. Teams find hidden free agent gems every year, and there is a lot that can happen between now and August.

If Brady doesn't come back, it's time to Tank for Trevor.
 

Seels

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I'm always optimistic as a fan but their two big holes in TE and WR are so big and I have no idea how they fill them. Edelman is old, I'm not writing Harry off like everyone else, but that's basically it. Dorsett sucks, Sanu sucks, Myers is at best a jag.
They badly need an infusion of speed and youth on offense. Brady is the least of their worries short or long term.
 

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I'm always optimistic as a fan but their two big holes in TE and WR are so big and I have no idea how they fill them. Edelman is old, I'm not writing Harry off like everyone else, but that's basically it. Dorsett sucks, Sanu sucks, Myers is at best a jag.
They badly need an infusion of speed and youth on offense. Brady is the least of their worries short or long term.
Dorsett is confusing to me. He looked like an asset early on, but was non-existent for the second half of the season.
 

lexrageorge

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Removing Dorsett and Sanu from the roster would be addition by subtraction. At least Myers is cheap depth insurance. I think it's likely that Edelman retires; personally, it would be preferable that he does if he cares at all about his long term health.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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If Brady goes elsewhere, I think they should seriously consider tearing it down to the studs.

This team one year older but led by Stidham with only cosmetic changes otherwise is going to win 6-8 games. What’s the point?
 

Seels

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Dorsett is confusing to me. He looked like an asset early on, but was non-existent for the second half of the season.
He really just seems like an incredibly stupid player. Maybe I'm just noticing it because I'm keying in when around the half way point in the season Brady was clearly looking for him to run a streak and he ran a post, and you could see Brady pissed at him. But he just seems to kind of do whatever he wants out there.

Like it doesn't matter too much, but on the hail mary at the end of the half, why is he in the same exact area that Edelman is in, instead of like, anywhere else? He doesn't seem to think during a play. It seems like he should be a good receiver, he can reasonably catch, he can reasonably get open, but he plays football like when you're playing Madden coop with a buddy who just runs whatever he wants regardless of what the play is looking to.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I'm always optimistic as a fan but their two big holes in TE and WR
I think if they even had league average tight ends the team would have been so much better off. The tight end position in the NFL is pretty deep these days and it's pitiful to not even have a guy on the roster who can haul in 20 balls.
 

jsinger121

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I think if they even had league average tight ends the team would have been so much better off. The tight end position in the NFL is pretty deep these days and it's pitiful to not even have a guy on the roster who can haul in 20 balls.
You can blame gronk for us being in that position with his delayed retirement costing us Jared cook.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Random question, but where’s SoxScout been? Feels like it’s been a couple of years since he frequented these parts, after years of being a noted mainstay.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Josh can definitely feel free to leave...the offensive plays left something to be desired to say the least. He seems to vacillate between vanilla run/pass plays to kinda/sorta deceptive trick plays. Nevermind vacillating between "we want Tom to have ZERO pressure on him" to switching way too late in a game to "OMG Tom be a superhero we need you!" play calls with no in between.
 

Seels

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Josh has never struck me as anything that needs to be kept. Good coach. Not a great one. A loss. Not a heavy one.
Whatever.
 

RedOctober3829

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Here's a quick look at the current offensive depth chart. Brady is still technically under contract.

QB
Brady
Stidham
Kessler

RB
Michel
White
Burkhead
Harris

FB
Develin
Johnson

TE
LaCosse
Izzo

WR
Edelman
Harry
Sanu
Meyers
Olszewski

T
Cannon
Wynn
Cajuste
Cunningham

G
Mason
Froholdt

C
Andrews
 

BigSoxFan

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Josh has never struck me as anything that needs to be kept. Good coach. Not a great one. A loss. Not a heavy one.
Whatever.
Yup. He’s another Patricia for me. At this stage, may just need a fresh face. Handing off to Roberts in a tight playoff game. I mean...c’mon.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Sanu has another year left. He's not going anywhere. People are selling Myers & Harry short.

The receiving group lacks a star playmaker but it may be a smart trade/signing away from being a decent group again. Add a motivated Brady, healthy Andrews/Cannon and things are certainly looking up.

And no, Wynn is far from being a "JAG". Brady has had a lot of time to throw ever since he came back.
 

BigSoxFan

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Sanu has another year left. He's not going anywhere. People are selling Myers & Harry short.

The receiving group lacks a star playmaker but it may be a smart trade/signing away from being a decent group again. Add a motivated Brady, healthy Andrews/Cannon and things are certainly looking up.

And no, Wynn is far from being a "JAG". Brady has had a lot of time to throw ever since he came back.
Have we heard anything on Andrews? I thought it was going to be a likely career ender.
 

Harry Hooper

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Yup. He’s another Patricia for me. At this stage, may just need a fresh face. Handing off to Roberts in a tight playoff game. I mean...c’mon.
With Develin at fullback, it seemed like that play rarely was successful. Asking Roberts to try it was pretty insane.
 

McBride11

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Can a cap person clarify the Brady thing.

Got paid ~ 23 M this year.
Contract voids end of league year. No tag available
There is 13M in dead cap for 2020.

1) can brady do one of his patented re-negotiations prior to contract expiration?
2) if he goes to FA, and lets say re-signs, can they pay him whatever ? Vet min?
 

BigSoxFan

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With Develin at fullback, it seemed like that play rarely was successful. Asking Roberts to try it was pretty insane.
Yup. And he almost fumbled. Hallmark of Belichick teams are putting players in roles where they can succeed. This was not one of those times. Not fair to Roberts at all. He almost had a costly fumble there.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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People giving up on Harry after he played about a quarter of the season and didn't have much opportunity to learn the offense/gel with Brady are incredibly short sighted. NFL playbooks and route running are incredibly hard.

It will be very surprising if Harry isn't a good receiver and it may be as soon as next year. Moving on from him now is the kind of move that has benefited the Patriots in terms of acquiring undervalued talent during this run.

On the other hand, maybe people here are right and his small sample size of an NFL season is enough to call him a bust. We really should expect nothing less than immediate success these days.
 
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Harry Hooper

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Michel caught 2 passes on 2 targets vs. the Titans. Movin' up.
 

BigSoxFan

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People giving up on Harry after he played about a quarter of the season and didn't have much opportunity to learn the offense/gel with Brady are incredibly short sighted. NFL playbooks and route running are incredibly hard.

It will be very surprising if Harry isn't a good receiver and it may be uas soon as next year. Moving on from him now is the kind of move that has benefited the Patriots in terms of acquiring undervalued talent during this run.

On the other hand, maybe people here are right and his small sample size of an NFL season is enough to call him a bust. We really should expect nothing less than immediate success these days.
Not sure it will be surprising if he isn’t good but obviously can’t draw any conclusions from this year. I think he’s going to be a solid 2nd or 3rd option eventually. The hands are good and his ability to run with the ball looks potentially elite-ish. They needed more out of Sanu and never got it.
 

cshea

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People giving up on Harry after he played about a quarter of the season and didn't have much opportunity to learn the offense/gel with Brady are incredibly short sighted. NFL playbooks and route running are incredibly hard.

It will be very surprising if Harry isn't a good receiver and it may be uas soon as next year. Moving on from him now is the kind of move that has benefited the Patriots in terms of acquiring undervalued talent during this run.

On the other hand, maybe people here are right and his small sample size of an NFL season is enough to call him a bust. We really should expect nothing less than immediate success these days.
He never really improved this year from the time he came back. He ended up with 14 catches on 31 targets for 126 yards, 4.06 y/t. He had a couple of sweep runs for decent gains, but they really couldn’t get him going in the passing game. The last 2 weeks he had 5 catches on 14 targets for 50 yards.

Certainly not ready to write him off, but I was hoping to see a bit more progression as the rear wore on. Hopefully a full offseason and training camp gets him going.
 

RedOctober3829

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Can a cap person clarify the Brady thing.

Got paid ~ 23 M this year.
Contract voids end of league year. No tag available
There is 13M in dead cap for 2020.

1) can brady do one of his patented re-negotiations prior to contract expiration?
2) if he goes to FA, and lets say re-signs, can they pay him whatever ? Vet min?
He can get a new deal before 3/17 when his deal voids. The dead money would be able to be spread out over 2 years.

Yes if he hits FA he can sign for whatever but the 13 million still counts against the cap.
 

Ed Hillel

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The team is not in good shape to contend for a SB for a while. They have a ton of holes on offense, limited cap space and draft capital, and a number of key free agents. The drafting the past few years has been bad, unfortunately.

I wonder if Bill has it in him to go through another 3-5 year roster overhaul, or if he’ll go another direction. Brady’s probably gone, but not likely to anywhere he’ll win another title.
 

E5 Yaz

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As long as they have Brady, it's going to be a case of trying to find the pieces that can supplement him in his final season or two. And, as time has gone on and teams in the AFC have improved, that sort of patchwork approach could bring diminishing returns.

Look at then East: It's not wide open just yet, but prepare yourself for pundits this offseason predicting the Bills to win the division. The Jets and Dolphins both made strides over the second half of the season. The days of of the easy 5-6 wins in the bank might well be over.

It's probably the most critical offseason in terms of personnel since the run began, and it all begins with Brady. Is one more shot with the current setup worth setting themselves back 2-3 years down the road. Tough call.
 

BigSoxFan

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The team is not in good shape to contend for a SB for a while. They have a ton of holes on offense, limited cap space and draft capital, and a number of key free agents. The drafting the past few years has been bad, unfortunately.

I wonder if Bill has it in him to go through another 3-5 year roster overhaul, or if he’ll go another direction. Brady’s probably gone, but not likely to anywhere he’ll win another title.
This seems a little overly pessimistic. The offense needs to be re-tooled but it’s fixable if Brady comes back. Obviously need a TE and an impact WR. Edelman looks to have another good year in him. Harry and Sanu should be better than what we saw. RBs are fine. Michel and White are both young. Harris figures to have a larger role next year.

OL is in decent shape if Andrews and Thuney return.

Defense is a little old but not 2007 Pats old yet either. JoeJuan looks like he could be good. Need upgrade on DL.

All in all, the days of Pats as top 3-4 contender may be over but I don’t think the days of them winning the division are over if Brady returns.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I'm on board to Tank for Trevor if Brady leaves. that would be our best shot to rebuild quickly.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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At some point, all things end. But a hallmark of this run has been the ability to retool on the fly by finding value picks and other team's unwanted, unloved players. It hasn't always worked but this franchise has been in contention for two decades because they were able to do that - AND this cannot be overstated - because they were fortunate enough to have an elite QB who was willing to take less than market.

I expect the Patriots to continue finding value players and focusing what they can do (the Saban/Belichick HBO special is highly instructive in this regard and, as a side note, it was a great palate cleanser after tonight's game). The Brady thing is trickier but even if he takes his talents to the Southland or Vegas or Miami or Nashville or the Meadowlands, the Patriots will likely still be good.

Belichick got knocked off the mountain this season and by some of his former assistants. If we know anything about that man, its that as much as how this season ended may bum us out, it has to be killing him. He will more than likely be on to 2020 by Sunday morning if he isn't already.
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

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This was truly one of the worst, least effective draft classes ever for the pats going back.

For a guy who was supposed to be a physical, dynamic pressence, Harry played like shit. Continually.

He wasn't good at blocking. Had poor burst. That play where he was lit up at the end of the line during the Miami game kills me.

Give Metcalf. Please.

This whole draft class was a massive whiff by BB.
 

kazuneko

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I'd be shocked if we ever saw Brady in a Patriots uniform again. Bellichick has always been cutthroat and there is no logic to spending big on a 43-year old QB coming off what was arguably his worst season. At the very least, and if they can't find anyone in free agency, Stidham isn't likely to be worse than Brady was in 2019.
Guessing Brady signs elsewhere and, after another mediocre year, retires at the end of next season...
 

nothumb

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I'd be shocked if we ever saw Brady in a Patriots uniform again. Bellichick has always been cutthroat and there is no logic to spending big on a 43-year old QB coming off what was arguably his worst season. At the very least, and if they can't find anyone in free agency, Stidham isn't likely to be worse than Brady was in 2019.
Guessing Brady signs elsewhere and, after another mediocre year, retires at the end of next season...
no way are they going into 2020 with just stidham if they are trying to win. brady is in decline but he is still better, and they can spread out his dead money if they resign him to a reasonable deal.

essentially, any FA QB you sign over brady for 2020 costs an extra $6.5M in dead cap (because you forego the chance to spread brady's hit). this makes it very hard to envision them adding a mid-tier FA who might reasonably replicate brady's performance. i think it will be a choice between bringing TB back vs. a rebuild / youth movement. i truly don't know which way it will go (depends on TB's attitude and BB's willingness to either GFIN with Tom or endure a rebuild), but i think the least likely option is that they go out and sign a mid-level FA QB to replace tom. maybe there is some other trade or bargain bin FA type scenario i'm missing, but i haven't heard it yet.