2020 Pats: Bengals Coach Implies Patriots Taping Play Signals

snowmanny

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That 3rd could easily be mid round. This sucks. All for a stupid fucking web series. NFL is a bunch of clowns but this was a self-inflicted wound.
Yeah this is bullshit, again, but fooling around with cameras is just stupidity. Do they not have a corporate compliance person whose only job is to prevent this crap from happening/
 

hunter05

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Penalty makes no sense. If the league is pretty sure the Pats cheated, should be another first. If they got nothing, should be a small fine or something.
It is a stupid half measure. Roger has to penalize them to appease the other owners, but the whole thing is bullshit, so he doesn't want to drop the hammer. So we get this, which makes no one happy.
 

djbayko

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It's bullshit, but at least it's over. The penalty is about what I expected. We should feel lucky that it wasn't worse coming from this asshole.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Took over 200 days for them to get to the bottom of this and determine the penalty. Where’s the 500 page report this time?
 

scottyno

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Is there a list of how many draft picks teams have been fined the last 15 years?
13 since 2005 on according to wiki, Saints are the only other team to lose much of value with 2 2nds from bountygate. Chiefs lost a 3rd and a 5th for tampering.
 

Oppo

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Would be interested to know how the fine was chosen at 1.1 mill?
Didn’t realize that random of a number was on the wheel of justice.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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I have a friend within the organization who is very close to this situation and this person tells me that - and this is insane - the penalty was going to be much harsher and Jonathan talked them down to the 3rd. Infuriating. This league SUCKS.
 

BigSoxFan

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I have a friend within the organization who is very close to this situation and this person tells me that - and this is insane - the penalty was going to be much harsher and Jonathan talked them down to the 3rd. Infuriating. This league SUCKS.
Not surprising at all. Good on Jonathan, if this is true.
 

lexrageorge

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All of the penalties besides the loss of the draft pick seemed reasonable for this situation. The video production people violated some pretty basic rules, and the fact that they did so does show that the organization had work to do when it came to briefing people on league rules and ensuring they were followed. And, no matter how you feel about the Spygate nonsense, the reality is that Roger made it clear when those penalties were announced that future rule violations regarding improper videotaping of opponents would result in harsh punishment. So even the fine can be easily justified.

And the optics of videotaping a future opponent, even if by accident, meant that something was going to happen. A 3rd is excessive; a true league commissioner would have made it clear to the other owners that what happened was a big nothing, and therefore merits a deduction of a late round pick for stupidity. But the Pats and everyone else knows that such circumstances don't exist in the NFL. So, my guess is that Roger was going to bring the hammer, Kraft Jr. asks WTF, and the result is months of back and forth with Goodell trying to convince the Bengals that a 3rd is proper punishment for this.
 

Cousin Walter

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Why does no journalist really get to the bottom of how this was handled and actually ask some tough questions.

Why did this take over six months to resolve? Why are infractions like this punished more harshly than Ravens and Seahawks repeated practice shenanigans? How does this compare to the Giants using walkie-talkies? Why did you destroy the measurements from the 2015 season?
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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How does Jonathan Kraft talk the league into just taking away a 3rd if the league has all the leverage? The only thing I can think of is basically saying that if they took any more that this time the team would take it to court and be looking for blood. Otherwise, why would the league care? What else could NE do?
 

djbayko

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How does Jonathan Kraft talk the league into just taking away a 3rd if the league has all the leverage? The only thing I can think of is basically saying that if they took any more that this time the team would take it to court and be looking for blood. Otherwise, why would the league care? What else could NE do?
He might have simply walked through all of the evidence and made a convincing argument that nothing underhanded was going on here. Or at least created enough doubt. Maybe also revisited the swift, decisive actions that the Patriots themselves took in response to the screw up.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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He might have simply walked through all of the evidence and made a convincing argument that nothing underhanded was going on here. Or at least created enough doubt. Maybe also revisited the swift, decisive actions that the Patriots themselves took in response to the screw up.
But wouldn't the league already know that? I'm not saying that inside source is wrong, just trying to figure out how Jonathan Kraft had any sway with the league's disciplinary office when they, seemingly, had the team dead to rights.
 

djbayko

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But wouldn't the league already know that? I'm not saying that inside source is wrong, just trying to figure out how Jonathan Kraft had any sway with the league's disciplinary office when they, seemingly, had the team dead to rights.
Persuasion. Defense attorneys spin closing arguments rather than letting the evidence speak for itself.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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How does Jonathan Kraft talk the league into just taking away a 3rd if the league has all the leverage? The only thing I can think of is basically saying that if they took any more that this time the team would take it to court and be looking for blood. Otherwise, why would the league care? What else could NE do?
What I was told by my friend is that part of why Jonathan was able to get them down to a 3rd is that they had a lot of the facts wrong. Which, again, is insane and infuriating, especially given how fucking long they investigated something that was in no plausible way nefarious. Stupid? Yes. Worth a small penalty? Sure. But the level of punishment is so disproportionate that it has the effect of making the infraction seem more deliberate and villainous than it is.
 

DourDoerr

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Really with this? This and Spygate are both legit, you can argue about levels of punishment, but they deserved both.

Edit: To @karvtelo
I get what you're saying - particularly about levels of punishment - but I don't believe either offense is legit. Spygate emanates from ignoring a memo, not a rule. How that merits punishment - especially in the way it was handed out with zero context on exactly what the offense was - is beyond me. Rules are rules. Non-rules are... non-rules.

This latest incident offers zero evidence that there was a connection between the video production team and the football operation. Just as the Pats perhaps deserved greater scrutiny given the past perception, the NFL also deserved greater scrutiny given the outlandish abuse of its authority in the past. If the NFL had proof of a connection between football ops and web content providers and transparently laid out the case for the punishment, then I'd agree that it's legit. Right now, this is a backroom knifing of a guy who has rumors of a bad reputation.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I get what you're saying - particularly about levels of punishment - but I don't believe either offense is legit. Spygate emanates from ignoring a memo, not a rule. How that merits punishment - especially in the way it was handed out with zero context on exactly what the offense was - is beyond me. Rules are rules. Non-rules are... non-rules.

This latest incident offers zero evidence that there was a connection between the video production team and the football operation. Just as the Pats perhaps deserved greater scrutiny given the past perception, the NFL also deserved greater scrutiny given the outlandish abuse of its authority in the past. If the NFL had proof of a connection between football ops and web content providers and transparently laid out the case for the punishment, then I'd agree that it's legit. Right now, this is a backroom knifing of a guy who has rumors of a bad reputation.
To Spygate, I'm pretty sure even BB himself has admitted his own hubris there. Memo vs rule, well, at one point there wasn't much difference; Goodell just issued a memo to all the teams about when and how to reopen facilities - if someone ignored that and was having OTAs this week, I'd expect them to be punished. The league's communication with the fanbase or public is neither here nor there. That's not really their job. BB knew what he was doing, he flaunted it and his former lackey got pissed and ratted him out. I think Bountygate is a much more egregious offense, re: the league. Again, did they get a tad overzealous with their penalty? Yes, but they deserved something. That's on BB.

The latest one, I don't particularly find it relevant if there's zero evidence (that we have seen or heard of; doesn't mean it's all out there); having watched the film in question, I don't even see what they could possibly gain from it or why they would try against the Bengals, but the point is they never should have allowed it to even be an issue. You can't claim the Patriot Way and espouse always being prepared, etc and then "oh, sorry, the production guy forgot to get clearance...". I understand they do these type of things to garner more traffic and revenue, but if need be hire a person who's sole job is to make sure there's nothing that can be misconstrued. Call it VP of CYA. As I said earlier, Idiot Tax. This falls on the Krafts, imo.

Deflategate, knock yourself out, it was obviously ridiculous in any way imaginable.
 

DourDoerr

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To Spygate, I'm pretty sure even BB himself has admitted his own hubris there. Memo vs rule, well, at one point there wasn't much difference; Goodell just issued a memo to all the teams about when and how to reopen facilities - if someone ignored that and was having OTAs this week, I'd expect them to be punished. The league's communication with the fanbase or public is neither here nor there. That's not really their job. BB knew what he was doing, he flaunted it and his former lackey got pissed and ratted him out. I think Bountygate is a much more egregious offense, re: the league. Again, did they get a tad overzealous with their penalty? Yes, but they deserved something. That's on BB.

The latest one, I don't particularly find it relevant if there's zero evidence (that we have seen or heard of; doesn't mean it's all out there); having watched the film in question, I don't even see what they could possibly gain from it or why they would try against the Bengals, but the point is they never should have allowed it to even be an issue. You can't claim the Patriot Way and espouse always being prepared, etc and then "oh, sorry, the production guy forgot to get clearance...". I understand they do these type of things to garner more traffic and revenue, but if need be hire a person who's sole job is to make sure there's nothing that can be misconstrued. Call it VP of CYA. As I said earlier, Idiot Tax. This falls on the Krafts, imo.

Deflategate, knock yourself out, it was obviously ridiculous in any way imaginable.
There's no doubt BB was pushing it regarding Spygate, but he's not breaking the rule. If Goodell wants to punish him for breaking a rule, establish the rule as the NFL bylaws dictate and then have at it if any transgressions then occur. Until then, eat it - there are procedures and every other NFL owner should have had Kraft's back here. I don't think it's fair to equate CV memos with sideline videotaping memos. CV is literally life and death. I think one of the NFL's jobs is to absolutely inform fans. Fans pay the bills and expect a league that has integrity. Or maybe I'm projecting.

Sorry, zero evidence is all. If they didn't put the evidence out there, I think it's fair to believe it doesn't exist. My understanding is that the vid production unit did get some sort of clearance or at least announced their presence in advance. I agree that there should be an overseer for the Pats on all things the organization does - for the team's and Kraft's self-interest. That they don't is stupid, but to me it doesn't have much relevance with why the NFL would punish without evidence.

These are games and it's ridiculous how damn serious and self-important the NFL regards itself. Some humility on their part is long overdue.
 

bakahump

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Deflategate, knock yourself out, it was obviously ridiculous in any way imaginable.
Was it though? OK it was ridiculous. But it makes perfect sense.

I have come around the idea that both the League and 31 other owners have vested interest in Making the Pats seem like cheaters.

Its not good NFL business to allow 1 team to dominate for 20 years. Pisses off large fan bases who not only hate the winners but bemoan how their team sucks. The Jags owner (ex.) cant like having his team compared to the Patriots. "If they can win 10 games a year every year! Why cant YOU!"

I mean large cornerstones of the entire league are designed to defeat just such a run of success. Drafts, Salary Caps, Harder Schedules for Playoff teams.
All designed to necessitate equality among the teams.

Nothing would make the NFL happier then 4-5 different division winners every year. With SB appearances/wins for sad sack franchises like Cinnci or Cleveland or Jets or Jags or Chargers.

Plus while the Pats Value went up astronomically other teams, while certainly didnt lose value, certainly didnt go up as much as had they made a AFCCG or a SB. And thats hard to do when the Pats are slated in it 50% of the time.

At some point the Patriots received a "Success Tax". And Each time the league viably could they received another.

Its the only thing that I can makes sense of when comparing what we "know" (which admittedly may not be the entire story) about each situation and comparing it to similar situations with other teams. I think the fact that there is a lack of transparency and we DONT Know, cause they wont let us know the whole story, actually supports my theory. If a team really is doing something devious.....dont you want that out there so everyone knows? If a team isnt really doing anything....or anything worse then anyone else, then you destroy tapes and obscure reports and claim its "all for the good of the league".

Does the NFL and other owners HATE the Patriots? Probably not HATE all capitols. But is it in there vested interest to ensure that other teams had success. So how do we do that? How do we make it more difficult for the Patriots? Well when they get in trouble....we dock higher picks, we give more penalties.
They cant tell Refs to treat us differently. That would hurt the integrity of the game. But they can do things "From the League". Suspensions *ahem. Take Picks. Fines.

Anyway.....thats my conspiracy theory of the day.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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There's no doubt BB was pushing it regarding Spygate, but he's not breaking the rule. If Goodell wants to punish him for breaking a rule, establish the rule as the NFL bylaws dictate and then have at it if any transgressions then occur. Until then, eat it - there are procedures and every other NFL owner should have had Kraft's back here. I don't think it's fair to equate CV memos with sideline videotaping memos. CV is literally life and death. I think one of the NFL's jobs is to absolutely inform fans. Fans pay the bills and expect a league that has integrity. Or maybe I'm projecting.

Sorry, zero evidence is all. If they didn't put the evidence out there, I think it's fair to believe it doesn't exist. My understanding is that the vid production unit did get some sort of clearance or at least announced their presence in advance. I agree that there should be an overseer for the Pats on all things the organization does - for the team's and Kraft's self-interest. That they don't is stupid, but to me it doesn't have much relevance with why the NFL would punish without evidence.

These are games and it's ridiculous how damn serious and self-important the NFL regards itself. Some humility on their part is long overdue.
I'm not looking to get into a semantics debate about the weight of particular memos, I cited the COVID memo because it was the most recent one. The point is they probably shouldn't be ignored.

Your second statement, you're saying "if they didn't put it out, it doesn't exist", when we've seen during the other scandals discussed, they don't until pushed or even taken to court; you express frustration that they held back on Spygate, but that here there's nothing more to see? The video crew shouldn't have been filming the sidelines in Cincinnati. Period. End of discussion. The rest is irrelevant and I'm not going to bicker about the various disputed recollections of the event. It shouldn't have ever happened.
 

DourDoerr

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I'm not looking to get into a semantics debate about the weight of particular memos, I cited the COVID memo because it was the most recent one. The point is they probably shouldn't be ignored.

Your second statement, you're saying "if they didn't put it out, it doesn't exist", when we've seen during the other scandals discussed, they don't until pushed or even taken to court; you express frustration that they held back on Spygate, but that here there's nothing more to see? The video crew shouldn't have been filming the sidelines in Cincinnati. Period. End of discussion. The rest is irrelevant and I'm not going to bicker about the various disputed recollections of the event. It shouldn't have ever happened.
Not looking to bicker either. You put out your position and I put out mine. It's clear we disagree so that's it. It's fine.

Just to address one point - I don't care what the NFL has set as its precedented behavior on these punishments. It was unfair then and it's unfair now and it shouldn't be acceptable behavior. Probably naive on my part. I like clear rules and transparency on their enforcement. If they don't want to share evidence, then I don't see a reason why I have to assume they have it. Again, we disagree and I'm fine leaving it here.
 

lexrageorge

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Not looking to bicker either. You put out your position and I put out mine. It's clear we disagree so that's it. It's fine.

Just to address one point - I don't care what the NFL has set as its precedented behavior on these punishments. It was unfair then and it's unfair now and it shouldn't be acceptable behavior. Probably naive on my part. I like clear rules and transparency on their enforcement. If they don't want to share evidence, then I don't see a reason why I have to assume they have it. Again, we disagree and I'm fine leaving it here.
There are 2 issues with the argument that Belichick ignored a simple memo and therefore should not have been punished for the original Spygate:

1.) The Patriots taping of video signals from the sidelines was contrary* to the policies and procedures spelled out in the league's game day procedure manual, which teams are expected to follow as per the league's bylaws. The league's bylaws also give the commissioner broad powers to update the manual as he sees fit. The procedures do not follow under a "rule" per-se, as they are not relevant to the play of the game itself; the location of a video camera on the sidelines or in the coaches booth does not impact actual game play. But that doesn't mean coaches or teams can ignore those game day policies, or any memos from the commissioner's office.

2.) The commissioner's office, as per the league's bylaws, also has wide latitude to punish acts that are deemed as providing an unfair advantage. The other leagues have similar wording in their bylaws, so the NFL is not necessarily an outlier.

The problem was that incident got blown up and way out of proportion by the media, by owners who were simply tired of the Patriots winning, and by others that simply hate Belichick. The offense deserved at most a fine and a docking of a 5th or 6th round draft pick; had Tagliabule still been commissioner, that would have been the punishment.

I *'ed "contrary" above because the wording of the so-called clarifying memo was confusing and left open to interpretation. I tend to think Belichick knew the intent of the rule, and he probably figured he could get away with it by claiming he didn't use the tapes during the game itself if he was ever questioned.
 

BaseballJones

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And to your point, @lexrageorge, the fact that the NFL over-punished the Pats for Spygate sent the message to all NFL fanbases that the Pats actually did something really nefarious. Let's never forget that just the year before, the Jets were doing the exact same thing to the Patriots. It really was pretty common. Maybe not in 2007 after the memo, but it was common in the NFL before then.

And by branding the Patriots these nefarious cheaters, it opened the door for anything and everything about the Pats to be read through that lens. I mean, Deflategate is a great example of how utter insane nonsense - and people literally not understanding basic laws of physics - became some huge scandal. Again, it should be pointed out that the Panthers were caught live on video during a game, just a few weeks before the AFCCG, actually on the sidelines tampering with footballs, warming them up to make them more Cam-friendly, and the NFL literally did nothing at all to them. And then when, during the first game of the next season, the communication system went out on Tomlin in Foxboro, of COURSE it was portrayed as some nefarious thing done by the Patriots, even though the NFL controls all that.

So when this second stupid taping thing hit, it comes with all that baggage. Oh those evil Patriots are doing it AGAIN...they just can't help but cheat. That sentiment runs through all other fanbases and obviously other teams' ownerships. And so the Pats got hit with a pretty hefty penalty for something that if, say, the Chargers, had done it, would have merited like a $20,000 fine if anything, but certainly nothing like what the Pats got.

So Spygate was a legit violation, but wayyyyyy less of one than was portrayed by the punishment. And every time the Pats slip up, the punishment is way out of whack because it all reinforces this perception and the idea that the Pats are "multiple time offenders". One could fairly say that every penalty the Pats received since Spygate is part of the Spygate punishment.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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So when this second stupid taping thing hit, it comes with all that baggage. Oh those evil Patriots are doing it AGAIN...they just can't help but cheat. That sentiment runs through all other fanbases and obviously other teams' ownerships. And so the Pats got hit with a pretty hefty penalty for something that if, say, the Chargers, had done it, would have merited like a $20,000 fine if anything, but certainly nothing like what the Pats got.

So Spygate was a legit violation, but wayyyyyy less of one than was portrayed by the punishment. And every time the Pats slip up, the punishment is way out of whack because it all reinforces this perception and the idea that the Pats are "multiple time offenders". One could fairly say that every penalty the Pats received since Spygate is part of the Spygate punishment.
In the eyes of the league and other owners, they are. Which is why they shouldn't expect to get the same punishment as the Chargers would and why they should make sure they aren't leaving themselves open to it. Right wrong or indifferent, they're smart enough people to understand the distinction of validity means nothing.

Other than Deflategate - which I think can at least partially be blamed on the media ("Hi Chris! :love:) - and this, what penalties have they received since?
 

DourDoerr

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There are 2 issues with the argument that Belichick ignored a simple memo and therefore should not have been punished for the original Spygate:

1.) The Patriots taping of video signals from the sidelines was contrary* to the policies and procedures spelled out in the league's game day procedure manual, which teams are expected to follow as per the league's bylaws. The league's bylaws also give the commissioner broad powers to update the manual as he sees fit. The procedures do not follow under a "rule" per-se, as they are not relevant to the play of the game itself; the location of a video camera on the sidelines or in the coaches booth does not impact actual game play. But that doesn't mean coaches or teams can ignore those game day policies, or any memos from the commissioner's office.

2.) The commissioner's office, as per the league's bylaws, also has wide latitude to punish acts that are deemed as providing an unfair advantage. The other leagues have similar wording in their bylaws, so the NFL is not necessarily an outlier.

The problem was that incident got blown up and way out of proportion by the media, by owners who were simply tired of the Patriots winning, and by others that simply hate Belichick. The offense deserved at most a fine and a docking of a 5th or 6th round draft pick; had Tagliabule still been commissioner, that would have been the punishment.

I *'ed "contrary" above because the wording of the so-called clarifying memo was confusing and left open to interpretation. I tend to think Belichick knew the intent of the rule, and he probably figured he could get away with it by claiming he didn't use the tapes during the game itself if he was ever questioned.
The first is a good point and I'll admit I forgot about the game day procedure manual which ups the legitimacy somewhat of the NFL's judgement. I'd feel comfortable arguing BB's position regarding rules vs. memos in a court of law, since - as you say - none of the taping impacted actual game play which is what the manual oversees while the wording there is less than precise. Outside of that court - and this directly ties to BB's hubris - the notion that BB could flout the memo and would then be allowed to skate away unimpeded by the man who wrote the memo is wishful thinking by him. I still don't see the illegality, but am willing to concede that there's enough there in total to merit a punishment. It goes without saying, however, that it was excessive and should have been handed out with a perfectly clear explanation on the exact transgression. And my apologies if this does exist - it's been a long time.

I agree that the Tags in his era probably would have ruled more equitably and I like to think he would have also provided the proper perspective. I don't think that same man would have the same latitude in this era though.
 
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BaseballJones

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In the eyes of the league and other owners, they are. Which is why they shouldn't expect to get the same punishment as the Chargers would and why they should make sure they aren't leaving themselves open to it. Right wrong or indifferent, they're smart enough people to understand the distinction of validity means nothing.
The reason the other owners and league thinks they cheat is (1) because they've never ever seen this kind of sustained success before and they cannot fathom that the Patriots are simply that much better than *everyone else* at this, so there must be some other reason, and (2) the Pats *did* break a rule that sure seems like it could at least partially explain (to them anyway) the level of the Pats' success. When the league hammered them with a way out-of-proportion penalty, it only solidified this in their minds, and everything else that has come since is only "oh the Pats, still cheating" confirmation. I mean it's so dumb but when headsets go out - something that the NFL, not the Patriots, are in full control of - and others around the league STILL think it's the Pats doing nefarious things, that tells you that people just aren't rational about this.

Other than Deflategate - which I think can at least partially be blamed on the media ("Hi Chris! :love:) - and this, what penalties have they received since?
None that I know of. But that's two times: One, which was simply PHYSICS, and another, which had nothing to do with football and was about a team documentary - and in both cases BB was completely cleared even by a league DYING to nail his hide to the wall - in both cases they got hit with a penalty that FAR outweighed what ought to have been the case.

And the penalties are this harsh because the Pats are seen as multiple time offenders. But the only reason for THAT is because the Spygate penalty was so outlandish, that it painted them as a cheating organization.

So it's all just a self-fulfilling prophecy now. It's confirmation bias. The Pats have only slipped up twice since Spygate. Once, really, on a totally non-football thing (this Bengals taping). The other wasn't even anything the Patriots DID, but was totally made up.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The reason the other owners and league thinks they cheat is (1) because they've never ever seen this kind of sustained success before and they cannot fathom that the Patriots are simply that much better than *everyone else* at this, so there must be some other reason, and (2) the Pats *did* break a rule that sure seems like it could at least partially explain (to them anyway) the level of the Pats' success. When the league hammered them with a way out-of-proportion penalty, it only solidified this in their minds, and everything else that has come since is only "oh the Pats, still cheating" confirmation. I mean it's so dumb but when headsets go out - something that the NFL, not the Patriots, are in full control of - and others around the league STILL think it's the Pats doing nefarious things, that tells you that people just aren't rational about this.



None that I know of. But that's two times: One, which was simply PHYSICS, and another, which had nothing to do with football and was about a team documentary - and in both cases BB was completely cleared even by a league DYING to nail his hide to the wall - in both cases they got hit with a penalty that FAR outweighed what ought to have been the case.

And the penalties are this harsh because the Pats are seen as multiple time offenders. But the only reason for THAT is because the Spygate penalty was so outlandish, that it painted them as a cheating organization.

So it's all just a self-fulfilling prophecy now. It's confirmation bias. The Pats have only slipped up twice since Spygate. Once, really, on a totally non-football thing (this Bengals taping). The other wasn't even anything the Patriots DID, but was totally made up.
Yeah, I'm aware of why things are in their current state and what's happened, I don't need a rundown, but thank you. The reasons don't matter, their status does. They broke a rule or a by law or a memo; it involved stealing signs, i.e. cheating. It doesn't matter who did it before them or since; or whether or not the league brought down hard or overly harsh penalties on them for it. It is what it is. The fans being thrown off by how harsh the penalty was is pretty irrelevant to their standing as multiple offenders with the league. So, yeah, when they get caught tapping the sidelines again, it's going to be brought back up, for no other reason than that. I'm honestly not even sure the point of your two posts, if you're arguing with me (in good faith) or if you think you're telling me or anyone else here something they don't already know.

If you walk into traffic once and get hit, you're bound to have it coming; then next time, a car runs a red and hits you, ok you're a victim; don't you think the third time you cross the street, you might take extra precautions? Or are you then just an idiot?
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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Yeah, I'm aware of why things are in their current state and what's happened, I don't need a rundown, but thank you. The reasons don't matter, their status does. They broke a rule or a by law or a memo; it involved stealing signs, i.e. cheating. It doesn't matter who did it before them or since; or whether or not the league brought down hard or overly harsh penalties on them for it. It is what it is. The fans being thrown off by how harsh the penalty was is pretty irrelevant to their standing as multiple offenders with the league. So, yeah, when they get caught tapping the sidelines again, it's going to be brought back up, for no other reason than that. I'm honestly not even sure the point of your two posts, if you're arguing with me (in good faith) or if you think you're telling me or anyone else here something they don't already know.

If you walk into traffic once and get hit, you're bound to have it coming; then next time, a car runs a red and hits you, ok you're a victim; don't you think the third time you cross the street, you might take extra precautions? Or are you then just an idiot?
I know what you're saying, and I don't feel like we're having an argument. Just a conversation. My point is that while I agree the they have the standing of multiple time offender, which means they need to be extra cautious (and what they did was unbelievably stupid and deserved SOME penalty), I do think it's important to point out that the reason they are considered multiple time offenders (which means increased penalties for subsequent infractions) is because (1) Spygate was blown WAY out of proportion, and (2) the NFL literally made something up about the team and frigging *hammered* them for it, based on what they made up and based on the Spygate precedent.

It does matter that the Spygate penalties (and I agree they should have been punished for that given it happened after the memo) were overly large, because it's influenced everything else.

You're a smart kid in school, kicking everyone's ass in grades. You get caught passing notes in class (omg how old am I to use this reference?) and for that you get a full semester suspension, at the behest of the other kids in the class who are jealous. Because of the size of the suspension, people - including teachers in subsequent grades - think you must have done something pretty damned serious because why else would you get hit with such a penalty? So it's now part of your rep. "Oh that's the kid that got suspended a semester...he's bad news...gotta watch out for him." And then whenever there's even a hint of anything, people assume you did something wrong. And the next time you get caught being late for class or whatever, you're that bad kid always trying to cut corners and it's clear that the first penalty didn't teach you your lesson so now you need to be hit with another one just as bad.

From: https://nesn.com/2019/12/patriots-spygate-history-will-be-a-factor-in-nfl-investigation-roger-goodell-says/

"In a news conference, the NFL commissioner said the incident involving a member of the Patriots’ production team illegally videotaping the Cincinnati Bengals sideline this past Sunday is “under review.” The Patriots released a statement admitting a cameraman recorded footage of Cincinnati’s sideline but said the individual was unaware that doing so violated league rules. Goodell said the Patriots’ history (i.e. Spygate, Deflategate) will be “a factor” in the NFL’s investigation. The NFL fined the Patriots $250,000 and head coach Bill Belichick $500,000 and docked the team a first-round draft pick after they were caught illegally filming the New York Jets’ sideline in 2007."

You gotta be perfect from here on out, which simply isn't fair.

And why didn't we hear that past violations were a factor for the Ravens when they violated practice rules in 2018? They did the same thing in 2016 and also were caught violating rules in 2010.


"For the second time in three years, the Baltimore Ravens are facing NFL discipline for violating offseason workout rules under the league's collective bargaining agreement.

The Ravens will forfeit their final two organized team activities this week as a result of an undisclosed infraction, NFL Vice President of Football Communications Michael Signora announced Tuesday. Owner Steve Bisciotti and coach John Harbaugh have been fined $100,000 and $50,000, respectively, NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported, via sources informed of the situation....

The Ravens and Harbaugh were fined $343,057 and $137,223, respectively, for a similar infraction in 2016. The organization was also forced to cancel a week of workouts in 2010 for violating rules under the previous CBA."

So they are three-time offenders. They were caught doing similar things in 2018 as they were in 2016, and their penalty was LESS the second time around. And being third time offenders in a shorter span of time than the Patriots didn't seem to matter.


You get my point. This stuff just drives me crazy. I'm not arguing with you. I'm more venting than anything else. Carry on.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,068
Hingham, MA
Yeah, I'm aware of why things are in their current state and what's happened, I don't need a rundown, but thank you. The reasons don't matter, their status does. They broke a rule or a by law or a memo; it involved stealing signs, i.e. cheating. It doesn't matter who did it before them or since; or whether or not the league brought down hard or overly harsh penalties on them for it. It is what it is. The fans being thrown off by how harsh the penalty was is pretty irrelevant to their standing as multiple offenders with the league. So, yeah, when they get caught tapping the sidelines again, it's going to be brought back up, for no other reason than that. I'm honestly not even sure the point of your two posts, if you're arguing with me (in good faith) or if you think you're telling me or anyone else here something they don't already know.

If you walk into traffic once and get hit, you're bound to have it coming; then next time, a car runs a red and hits you, ok you're a victim; don't you think the third time you cross the street, you might take extra precautions? Or are you then just an idiot?
But they weren’t stealing signs aka cheating. They were filming from the wrong place. But they could have filmed from somewhere else and gotten the same material. That was the problem with Spygate. They didn’t gain any kind of advantage from the filming location. But they got labeled as cheaters.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
18,729
Portsmouth, NH
But they weren’t stealing signs aka cheating. They were filming from the wrong place. But they could have filmed from somewhere else and gotten the same material. That was the problem with Spygate. They didn’t gain any kind of advantage from the filming location. But they got labeled as cheaters.
What were they filming the defensive coaches for then, their fashion choices? I'm aware they could have moved twenty feet back into the stands and done it, but they didn't. BB ignored the memo. They got caught. That's really all there is to it.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,068
Hingham, MA
What were they filming the defensive coaches for then, their fashion choices? I'm aware they could have moved twenty feet back into the stands and done it, but they didn't. BB ignored the memo. They got caught. That's really all there is to it.
The material of what they were filming was not why they were punished. It was the location.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
18,729
Portsmouth, NH
The material of what they were filming was not why they were punished. It was the location.
If you want to get right down to it, they were punished because they were explicitly told not to do something and they did it anyway. Material or location, label whatever you like as the cheating part. The rest is noise. But the persecution complex doesn't help anything.