2020 Pats: Bengals Coach Implies Patriots Taping Play Signals

tims4wins

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If you want to get right down to it, they were punished because they were explicitly told not to do something and they did it anyway. Material or location, label whatever you like as the cheating part. The rest is noise. But the persecution complex doesn't help anything.
I don’t disagree that they did something that was against the rules. I’m only pointing out that they got labeled as cheaters because of how it was all spun and the overly harsh punishment.

As others have pointed out, both the Seahawks and Ravens have broken the same rules multiple times (aka they cheated multiple times doing the exact same thing). But because the lack of a blowup / investigation / harsh punishment, they aren’t thought of as cheaters.
 

BaseballJones

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If you want to get right down to it, they were punished because they were explicitly told not to do something and they did it anyway. Material or location, label whatever you like as the cheating part. The rest is noise. But the persecution complex doesn't help anything.
I agree with your point that whatever the rule was, they broke it. But it's not merely a "persecution complex". This crap actually is real and it hampers my favorite team's efforts at being the best they can be. There's tangible, real impact on the Patriots because of this nonsense. And as a fan, it's super frustrating to see the double standard in the league.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I agree with your point that whatever the rule was, they broke it. But it's not merely a "persecution complex". This crap actually is real and it hampers my favorite team's efforts at being the best they can be. There's tangible, real impact on the Patriots because of this nonsense. And as a fan, it's super frustrating to see the double standard in the league.
I don't disagree with any of that except I do find a persecution complex to run through the boards here. Basically everything that comes up is a reference to how the league hates us and is purposefully screwing us. Every sport, every subform, etc. It's like our own Godwin's law.
 

tims4wins

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I don't disagree with any of that except I do find a persecution complex to run through the boards here. Basically everything that comes up is a reference to how the league hates us and is purposefully screwing us. Every sport, every subform, etc. It's like our own Godwin's law.
Is this punishment not proof that there is a reason for the persecution complex? It’s a different set of rules.
 

BaseballJones

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Is this punishment not proof that there is a reason for the persecution complex? It’s a different set of rules.
I know. It's like....well, show me consistency by the NFL and then we can talk about a persecution complex. It's not that I don't think we have one...it's that I think we have it, and it's warranted.
 

DJnVa

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Damn, we certainly love going over the same ground over and over and over and over and over and over. And I've yet to see one person say anyone changed their mind on anything.

Maybe it'll happen this time though.
 

Archer1979

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Damn, we certainly love going over the same ground over and over and over and over and over and over. And I've yet to see one person say anyone changed their mind on anything.

Maybe it'll happen this time though.

It's kind of what we do. ;)

It's obvious to anyone who doesn't have a rabid anti-Pats bias that this wasn't the result of trying to get a competitive advantage, but really a rules infraction. The penalty seems harsh on the surface, but to think that any punishment is going to fit the crime going forward is naive. Kind of like the Sox getting hit for a second round draft pick for stealing signs.

The Pats are going to get hit and hit hard, regardless of the infraction, for a long time going forward simply because they should know better by now.
 

BigSoxFan

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It's kind of what we do. ;)

It's obvious to anyone who doesn't have a rabid anti-Pats bias that this wasn't the result of trying to get a competitive advantage, but really a rules infraction. The penalty seems harsh on the surface, but to think that any punishment is going to fit the crime going forward is naive. Kind of like the Sox getting hit for a second round draft pick for stealing signs.

The Pats are going to get hit and hit hard, regardless of the infraction, for a long time going forward simply because they should know better by now.
Yeah. I think it’s reasonable to believe 1) Pats were dumbasses for putting themselves in this position and 2) NFL giving Pats disproportionate penalty. It’s just reality at this point and we need to accept it.

Pats need to be extra diligent in everything they do, which they obviously are in most cases. There‘s absolutely no reason to be burned by something like this. They just lit a 3rd round pick on fire for nothing.
 

BaseballJones

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It's kind of what we do. ;)

It's obvious to anyone who doesn't have a rabid anti-Pats bias that this wasn't the result of trying to get a competitive advantage, but really a rules infraction. The penalty seems harsh on the surface, but to think that any punishment is going to fit the crime going forward is naive. Kind of like the Sox getting hit for a second round draft pick for stealing signs.

The Pats are going to get hit and hit hard, regardless of the infraction, for a long time going forward simply because they should know better by now.
They definitely should know better, and the taping this past year was just a total unforced error. A needless, stupid mistake.

However, what it means is that the Patriots cannot afford ANY screwups at ALL, and it's all built on the overzealous punishments of the past that have created a "the Pats cheat" mentality. I mean, other teams continue to break the rules (see Baltimore and Seattle) and their punishments continue to be tiny. Why? Because they weren't branded as cheaters. In fact, in their most recent issue, the Ravens broke the rules, and got a *lesser* punishment for a similar infraction than they did the previous time. AND the Ravens' organization felt the freedom to lash out at the NFL for stupid rules. And they get barely a flick of the hand, never mind a slap.

So yeah, the Pats need to be perfect. Every i dotted, every t crossed. No mistakes. But that just shows the double standard that exists. It's objectively true.
 

JohnnyK

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BaseballJones

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Archer1979

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I totally forgot about this event. Holy smokes. Jets do it, total nonissue. Pats do it, loss of draft picks, huge fine.

Yes we have a persecution complex. Why? Because this NFL double standard is REAL.
The overwhelming success of NE the last twenty years has done two things (well more really, but the most relevant are)...

The other organizations are certainly dubious that their success is due to being better run and are going to scream for blood for any reason in an attempt to control the competitive imbalance.

They are also the premier franchise of the NFL, which with it carries the spotlight (so you either love them or hate them). Anything and everything they do is going to be front page news.

The Jets are harmless. They could have the opposing playbook, and signals, for every game and still not make the playoffs.
 

PedroKsBambino

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It may be the Pats have been engaged in an integrated, sophisticated scheme of cheating for more than a decade.

There is, however, literally zero evidence to support that. There is a material violation in the original SpyGate, the scope of which is (by evidence) much smaller than most people believe. There is a trivial violation with the Bengals last year. There is nothing else. As has been demonstrated in various places, the Pats are not unique in having a couple violations.

Absent more evidence, the most rational conclusion about the penalties (which is consistent with a ton of reporting of DeflateGate) is that the League is biased on this topic and is acting in the absence of evidence or cause, either because of pressure from owners within the league jealous of the Pats success (which has been reported) or because the commissioner's office, in a set of actions befitting Inspecter Javert, have determined that they know the truth regardless of the lack of evidence. There is plenty of reason to believe the league's position on DeflateGate was indefensible---as noted by the only court who evaluated the evidence.

Sadly, that is where we are.
 

RedOctober3829

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It's a very harsh punishment for something that the NFL still hasn't produced the evidence to support punishing the football side for. If KSP screwed up, punish Kraft with a fine but the draft pick implies that football operations had something to do with this. As I said from the beginning, KSP does projects that football operations has absolutely nothing to do with and this was one of them. The Ravens got caught with an employee having a Bluetooth device in their ear and did not get punished. Atlanta got a draft pick taken away because of something that happened during the game. Denver had multiple salary cap circumventions and got docked 1 pick. I could go on. But the Pats continue to be the whipping boys of the league.
 

E5 Yaz

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Damn, we certainly love going over the same ground over and over and over and over and over and over. And I've yet to see one person say anyone changed their mind on anything.

Maybe it'll happen this time though.
I've actually changed my mind.

I used to care about this shit. But reading the past couple of pages has made me take a step back and realize how much time I've wasted caring about this shit.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I think the most rational explanation is that the league and a newbie commissioner allowed the other owners to force an overzealous reaction to a legit infraction, but one that didn't warrant the spectacle that was attached; which coincided with the Pats Eff You Tour '07 of beating the shit out of everyone and led to what we got as a result, both in penalty and reputation. Given that, they doubled down on Deflategate more out of trying to make themselves look better - in the midst of other scandals and issues - and crybaby teams like the Colts exacerbated it, as Goodell had no control over his owners at that point and the media age allowed it to blow up even before they had a chance to tamper it. The Bengals thing is, as noted, an Idiot Tax; whether anything was gleaned from it or not, I'm sure many inside the organization and inside the league where like "fucking really?". I'd not like to have been an electronic device within reach of BB that day. (All that being said, I don't think it's legit to compare practice rules violations to situations that appear (rightly or wrongly) to be cheating.)

End of day, I don't see this having taken the same course were Tagliabue still in the position. It'd all have been handled quietly and behind the curtains. As it is, Goodell was in a hole as the new sheriff and tried to dig his way out. But we need to get over it; constantly complaining about it doesn't help it go away if we are to attribute any portion to the public perception.
 

Cotillion

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Jun 11, 2019
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Practice rules violations are cheating though. They are set up to level playing field and stop teams from one upping each other and injuring players unnecessarily. It is also a duly negotiated labor rule so it even goes to integrity of game as it becomes a CBA issue. Also they were workplace injury rules they were violating (I think ravens) in that they were holding practices that had hitting beyond what was allowed.

You have just chosen to dismiss it as not “cheating” or a different type of cheating. It’s no different than Bill ignoring a memo.

You don’t think Bill wants more time with the team on the field?
 

BaseballJones

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I think the most rational explanation is that the league and a newbie commissioner allowed the other owners to force an overzealous reaction to a legit infraction, but one that didn't warrant the spectacle that was attached; which coincided with the Pats Eff You Tour '07 of beating the shit out of everyone and led to what we got as a result, both in penalty and reputation. Given that, they doubled down on Deflategate more out of trying to make themselves look better - in the midst of other scandals and issues - and crybaby teams like the Colts exacerbated it, as Goodell had no control over his owners at that point and the media age allowed it to blow up even before they had a chance to tamper it. The Bengals thing is, as noted, an Idiot Tax; whether anything was gleaned from it or not, I'm sure many inside the organization and inside the league where like "fucking really?". I'd not like to have been an electronic device within reach of BB that day. (All that being said, I don't think it's legit to compare practice rules violations to situations that appear (rightly or wrongly) to be cheating.)

End of day, I don't see this having taken the same course were Tagliabue still in the position. It'd all have been handled quietly and behind the curtains. As it is, Goodell was in a hole as the new sheriff and tried to dig his way out. But we need to get over it; constantly complaining about it doesn't help it go away if we are to attribute any portion to the public perception.
The reason it's hard for me personally to "get over it" is because other teams violate rules and jack squat happens to them. And then every so often, the league hands down some frigging absurd penalty on the Patriots for what appears to be nothing or - even worse - something completely made up. I'm over Spygate, except for the fact that because of how the NFL handled it, it continues to impact the team, while other teams simply don't face the same level of punishment, even for repeated offenses.

Think of it this way: someone does something bad to you. It stings, but you can get over it after a while. But then that person keeps doing bad things to you, all related to this first one. And there's nothing you can do about it. So when someone says you need to "get over it", it's hard to because *it keeps happening to you*.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I think the most rational explanation is that the league and a newbie commissioner allowed the other owners to force an overzealous reaction to a legit infraction, but one that didn't warrant the spectacle that was attached; which coincided with the Pats Eff You Tour '07 of beating the shit out of everyone and led to what we got as a result, both in penalty and reputation....
Maybe I am misreading you-- but I see that as the FU tour led to the penalty. Except the penalty was assessed on 9/13, which some would say led to the FU tour.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The reason it's hard for me personally to "get over it" is because other teams violate rules and jack squat happens to them. And then every so often, the league hands down some frigging absurd penalty on the Patriots for what appears to be nothing or - even worse - something completely made up. I'm over Spygate, except for the fact that because of how the NFL handled it, it continues to impact the team, while other teams simply don't face the same level of punishment, even for repeated offenses.

Think of it this way: someone does something bad to you. It stings, but you can get over it after a while. But then that person keeps doing bad things to you, all related to this first one. And there's nothing you can do about it. So when someone says you need to "get over it", it's hard to because *it keeps happening to you*.
Your scenario implies the aggrieved party is completely innocent. In which case, I'd still tell you to get over it, you can't change it and you contributed to it. The Saints have far more to complain about with overly harsh penalties.
 

BaseballJones

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Your scenario implies the aggrieved party is completely innocent. In which case, I'd still tell you to get over it, you can't change it and you contributed to it. The Saints have far more to complain about with overly harsh penalties.
No it doesn't imply that the aggrieved party is "completely innocent". It implies that they're being overly punished for their violations (one of which was completely made up, so in that case, yes, they were innocent), especially compared to other teams, including those that are multiple-time offenders.

This is objectively true. There's no rational way to deny it.
 

BaseballJones

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I mean, think about it, @Papelbon's Poutine. Here's what the Pats have done wrong:

(1) Spygate. We've been over this. They broke a rule. I'm with you on that. I've got no problem with them being punished. But (a) the Jets did the same thing and received NO punishment whatsoever, but still...they did it before the memo so it's fine for the Pats to be punished, and (b) the penalty for the Pats was WAY too big for the violation. They really only broke the rule about where to tape from. Fine, punish them for that. But they turned it into this scandal where it came off like they were *cheating*, which wasn't the case. The overly harsh punishment really is the root of all this.

(2) Deflategate. Completely made up BS. They got HAMMERED for something that literally didn't exist. But by punishing them, they were painted as multiple-time offenders and cheaters.

(3) Bengalcameragate. The dumbest frigging thing ever. Had nothing to do with football whatsoever. The Jets in 2011 did the same thing - had a guy on the sidelines taping for an organizational program. They got NO penalty at ALL. The Pats got docked a 3rd round pick.

So they've done two things wrong under BB. One was minor (Spygate) that got MASSIVELY overly penalized. And then the stupid Bengals thing, which didn't even have to do with football, and they STILL got hammered for it (3rd round picks are important).

That's it. Two things. Both teeny-tiny things. But they've been punished millions of dollars, lost two first round picks, a third round pick, and a fourth round pick, and had their QB suspended four games.

Don't give me that New Orleans - who actually put bounties on players, which endangers players' health - got it worse than New England.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I mean, think about it, @Papelbon's Poutine. Here's what the Pats have done wrong:

(1) Spygate. We've been over this. They broke a rule. I'm with you on that. I've got no problem with them being punished. But (a) the Jets did the same thing and received NO punishment whatsoever, but still...they did it before the memo so it's fine for the Pats to be punished, and (b) the penalty for the Pats was WAY too big for the violation. They really only broke the rule about where to tape from. Fine, punish them for that. But they turned it into this scandal where it came off like they were *cheating*, which wasn't the case. The overly harsh punishment really is the root of all this.

(2) Deflategate. Completely made up BS. They got HAMMERED for something that literally didn't exist. But by punishing them, they were painted as multiple-time offenders and cheaters.

(3) Bengalcameragate. The dumbest frigging thing ever. Had nothing to do with football whatsoever. The Jets in 2011 did the same thing - had a guy on the sidelines taping for an organizational program. They got NO penalty at ALL. The Pats got docked a 3rd round pick.

So they've done two things wrong under BB. One was minor (Spygate) that got MASSIVELY overly penalized. And then the stupid Bengals thing, which didn't even have to do with football, and they STILL got hammered for it (3rd round picks are important).

That's it. Two things. Both teeny-tiny things. But they've been punished millions of dollars, lost two first round picks, a third round pick, and a fourth round pick, and had their QB suspended four games.

Don't give me that New Orleans - who actually put bounties on players, which endangers players' health - got it worse than New England.
I don't need to think about it, I've already stated all that. You can type it as many times as you like, as if you're explaining something to me, but you're not. Why do you feel the need to keep repeating these? Deflategate was a joke; no one is arguing you on that. We all agree Spygate was overly harsh, no matter how one views the infraction; no one is arguing you on that. We all agree the Bengals thing likely had nothing to do with spying, but they should have made damn sure they weren't in the position to begin with; no one is rationally arguing that.

Does bitching and moaning about it and cursing the NFL change any of it? Does it honestly make you feel any better? Do you think you're convincing anyone to change their mind on it? Or are you just typing to read your own words?

Your last sentence is so utterly, utterly perfect. You're all up in arms because the Pats were misconceived by fans via the league making a mountain out of a molehill, yet you take Bountygate on its surface without actually seemingly knowing what occurred in it all. And no, I'm not going to spell it out for you, I don't need a rundown and you're a big boy, you can look into yourself.

When I say get over it, I mean to take it as we went to 9 SBs, won 6, are the greatest dynasty in the league's history despite that shit. But a large portion of the fanbase wants to be sore winners, when you should just tell those people you're worried about to fuck off, you just hate us because we're so damn good.
 

BaseballJones

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I don't need to think about it, I've already stated all that. You can type it as many times as you like, as if you're explaining something to me, but you're not. Why do you feel the need to keep repeating these? Deflategate was a joke; no one is arguing you on that. We all agree Spygate was overly harsh, no matter how one views the infraction; no one is arguing you on that. We all agree the Bengals thing likely had nothing to do with spying, but they should have made damn sure they weren't in the position to begin with; no one is rationally arguing that.

Does bitching and moaning about it and cursing the NFL change any of it? Does it honestly make you feel any better? Do you think you're convincing anyone to change their mind on it? Or are you just typing to read your own words?

Your last sentence is so utterly, utterly perfect. You're all up in arms because the Pats were misconceived by fans via the league making a mountain out of a molehill, yet you take Bountygate on its surface without actually seemingly knowing what occurred in it all. And no, I'm not going to spell it out for you, I don't need a rundown and you're a big boy, you can look into yourself.

When I say get over it, I mean to take it as we went to 9 SBs, won 6, are the greatest dynasty in the league's history despite that shit. But a large portion of the fanbase wants to be sore winners, when you should just tell those people you're worried about to fuck off, you just hate us because we're so damn good.
Well to your last point, I do that sometimes. But I don't know why it's hard for you to understand (or maybe it's not and I'm misreading it) why this might continue to bother me. It continues to bother me because it impacts my team *materially*. It's not just about other fans' perspective of my favorite team. It's that the league is actively treating the Patriots different. How that doesn't bother you is astounding. Would it bother you if during a game the refs called holding on the Pats but not on the other team, when you can see with your own eyes that the other team is holding? I would imagine it would. This is the same thing, just a different issue. If it was just Spygate and it's over, fine, get over it. But it KEEPS HAPPENING. So my favorite team keeps getting smacked in the face.

But whatever, I guess you and I aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this, and that's fine. I've got no beef with you.


But one last thing....for Spygate, Deflategate, and Bengalsgate combined, what do YOU think the combined penalties should have been, given what you know?
 

BaseballJones

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You folks still going huh?
Sure. Why not? Other than golf and some soccer leagues, there's no sports going on right now. And this is timely, given that the Pats just got hit with the loss of a draft pick.

It's relevant discussion.
 

DJnVa

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Sure. Why not? Other than golf and some soccer leagues, there's no sports going on right now. And this is timely, given that the Pats just got hit with the loss of a draft pick.

It's relevant discussion.
I'm mostly kidding, but I think pretty much everything that has been said has been said multiple times.