2019 Giants: Say-Say, Danny Dimes!

RedOctober3829

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This isn't a Giants thread, but a dump on Eli Manning thread. I get it, I'd hate him too if I was a Pats fan.

I think most reasonable Giant fans will tell you that he isn't a Hall Of Fame quarterback. He COULD have been, but I don't think anyone predicted such a steep decline after the second superbowl. At the time though Eli was pretty money in the post season and I think most fans assumed he'd carry that swagger over the rest of his career. Unfortunately, he didn't.

As far as the Giants this year, being a fan is painful. The front office has made bonehead decision after bonehead decision, with the biggest one being the head coaching job. McAdoo was terrible. Shurmur isn't any better.

My biggest fear is that the team is holding on to something that won't be there. They need to accept a rebuilding process, but of course that will squander some good Saquon years.

Saquon is a bright spot though. Man, that guy is good.
This is why the Saquon pick was the wrong one to make for the Giants at the time. They were in rebuilding mode at the time and needed to either draft Sam Darnold and develop him behind Eli until he was done or somebody like Bradley Chubb, Denzel Ward, or even Quentin Nelson which were(and still are) positions of need moreso than an RB. Drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice. By the time the Giants have a chance to contend again, Barkley is going to be due a huge contract and the value of having a player like that on a rookie deal is gone.
 

InstaFace

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My biggest fear is that the team is holding on to something that won't be there. They need to accept a rebuilding process, but of course that will squander some good Saquon years.

Saquon is a bright spot though. Man, that guy is good.
This is the story of the Giants' season. Will they Play The Kids, or will they cling to veterans (especially Eli but others as well) who might deliver a few marginal wins this season? Eli is probably playing because he puts butts in seats, which is also Saquon's role (he's probably not on the next great Giants team, or if he is, he's not starring by then). But doing that too much will not leave them able to evaluate who will improve and add the best value over the next 5 years.
 

BigSoxFan

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This is the story of the Giants' season. Will they Play The Kids, or will they cling to veterans (especially Eli but others as well) who might deliver a few marginal wins this season? Eli is probably playing because he puts butts in seats, which is also Saquon's role (he's probably not on the next great Giants team, or if he is, he's not starring by then). But doing that too much will not leave them able to evaluate who will improve and add the best value over the next 5 years.
Do you think Eli is putting more butts in seats at this point than a guy like Jones who has the high 1st round pick shine?

I live in NJ and work in NYC and everyone I talk to is basically ready to move on from Eli. Only people who aren’t appear to be Giants management.
 

bankshot1

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This is why the Saquon pick was the wrong one to make for the Giants at the time. They were in rebuilding mode at the time and needed to either draft Sam Darnold and develop him behind Eli until he was done or somebody like Bradley Chubb, Denzel Ward, or even Quentin Nelson which were(and still are) positions of need moreso than an RB. Drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice. By the time the Giants have a chance to contend again, Barkley is going to be due a huge contract and the value of having a player like that on a rookie deal is gone.
Exactly. I was in the draft Darnold or trade the #2 for a basket of picks and rebuild the O-line and/or defense. Saquon is fun to watch, but wholly wasted on that team. I comped the G-Men drafting Saquon to a working stiff leasing a Bentley.
 
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I live in Staten Island. I asked two dads at school pickup today what they thought of Eli’s HOF case. These guys are into football and generally level headed. Without missing a beat, both said yes. Absolutely. Wow.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Not only have I never met a Giant fan who doesn’t think he’s a HOFer (and I know many, half my core group of college buddies are CT and N.Y. Giants/MFY fans), but I’ve accepted the fact that he’s going in. NY and 2 Super Bowls. Nothing else matters.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Eli is definitely getting in. The only question is how, if at all, voters and the broader media try to distinguish Philip Rivers from him given the gulf in actual production.

Eli’s brand is the factor keeping this from being the legitimate debate it should be. I mean, shit, Richard Seymour is perceives to be a borderline candidate because he didn’t rack up sacks.
 

Euclis20

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I'm fully on the Eli is mediocrity + longevity defined, but he's getting in. And it's not just that he's won two super bowls (something dozens if not hundreds of players can claim) and it's not just that he's a QB who's won multiple super bowls (something 12 QBs can claim), it's that he won 2 super bowl MVPs. That's an elite list comprising of literally a handful of guys (Brady/Montana/Starr/Bradshaw, and Eli). Combine that with his longevity (he's top ten in career completions/TDs/yards, the QB big 3), and his part in one of the signature wins/plays in NFL history, and he'll have no problem getting in.
 

bankshot1

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His "for" argument boils down to basically two good 4th quarter SB performances in games where he was otherwise pretty average and longevity. His regular season performance from games W/L to most passing stats, is the definition of average+. But if you multiply the #s by 15...
He is not a HoF QB.
He'll get in.
 

BigSoxFan

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His "for" argument boils down to basically two good 4th quarter SB performances in games where he was otherwise pretty average and longevity. His regular season performance from games W/L to most passing stats, is the definition of average+. But if you multiply the #s by 15...
He is not a HoF QB.
He'll get in.
Not entirely true. In his 2007/2011 title runs, he threw 15 TDs and only 2 INTs and had 5 games with a QB rating over 100.

While I think he’s mediocrity personified, he deserves the full credit of his 2 playoff runs. Certainly some luck along the way but every SB winning QB gets it in some form.
 

bankshot1

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I haven't checked his stats in awhile, but as I recall the only annual passing stat Eli led the NFL in was in interceptions.

He did it 3 times.

And he gets credit for winning the SBs, it will get him into the Hall, but it doesn't change the 16-game, season after season, real nature of his 15 year career.
 

BigSoxFan

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I haven't checked his stats in awhile, but as I recall the only annual passing stat Eli led the NFL in was in interceptions.

He did it 3 times.

And he gets credit for winning the SBs, it will get him into the Hall, but it doesn't change the real 16-game season after season, nature of his 15 year career.
Not disagreeing on the regular season stuff. He was never that impressive there. But his 2007/2011 runs were more than a couple good quarters. Throwing only 2 INTs in 8 playoff games is pretty tough to do, even if you’re in more of a game manager role for some of them.
 

bankshot1

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Not disagreeing on the regular season stuff. He was never that impressive there. But his 2007/2011 runs were more than a couple good quarters. Throwing only 2 INTs in 8 playoff games is pretty tough to do, even if you’re in more of a game manager role for some of them.
If he lost those SBs, (he was behind in both until the final 1-2 minutes) would his post-seasons of 2007 and 2011 be enough to get him into the HoF?

I'm assuming you will say "no"

So in essence, 2 good 4th qtrs in a 15 year career will get him in.
 

Euclis20

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That's distilling it down way too much. Someone on the pats (Brady?) said of the Atlanta super bowl that there were 30 plays where if it went the other way they would have lost. Would you say that only the last play truly mattered? No, the whole thing does, especially when the result is positive. Eli had two excellent playoff runs that ended in two super bowls, full stop. Plenty of good arguments against his enshrinement, no need for hyperbole.

*edit - arguing against a player because his super bowl wins weren't decided until the final moments REALLY isn't a road that Pats fans want to start down. You make your own luck.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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His "for" argument boils down to basically two good 4th quarter SB performances in games where he was otherwise pretty average and longevity. His regular season performance from games W/L to most passing stats, is the definition of average+. But if you multiply the #s by 15...
He is not a HoF QB.
He'll get in.
He's really high in all time rankings in a bunch of counting stats.

7th in yards, 6th in completions, 8th in TDs.
 

tims4wins

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He's really high in all time rankings in a bunch of counting stats.

7th in yards, 6th in completions, 8th in TDs.
He is now. Not sure what that looks like in 5-10 years though. He was never very good. Look at the single season passer rating list I posted earlier. Marc Bulger had multiple years better than any single season Eli ever had. Marc. Bulger.
 

bankshot1

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I distilled the Eli SB argument to its core.

I live in metro NYC and watched Opie since he was a puppy, and he is not a HoF QB, he is decidely average, but he will get in.
 

bankshot1

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He's really high in all time rankings in a bunch of counting stats.

7th in yards, 6th in completions, 8th in TDs.
Covered longevity up thread. If you multiply average yearly #s by 15 you get big numbers.

And counting stats are sort of BS, you cant comp today's guys with pre-2000 guys. Wait a couple of years and you will be able to have HoF arguments for a lot more guys based on big #s.
 

Euclis20

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Covered longevity up thread. If you multiply average yearly #s by 15 you get big numbers.

And counting stats are sort of BS, you cant comp today's guys with pre-2000 guys. Wait a couple of years and you will be able to have HoF arguments for a lot more guys based on big #s.
Agreed. If any of those guys who were just good enough to not lose their jobs for 15 years also happened to have two strong playoff runs that were capped off with two super bowl MVPs, I'd happily argue on their behalf as well.
 

bankshot1

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Agreed. If any of those guys who were just good enough to not lose their jobs for 15 years also happened to have two strong playoff runs that were capped off with two super bowl MVPs, I'd happily argue on their behalf as well.
I've been resigned to the probability for a couple of years, and posted up thread, that 2 SBs and longevity was probably a winning argument to get Opie his gold jacket.
 

Marciano490

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If Joe Flacco won another SB would be get in? Because, without looking closely at the numbers at least, Flacco and Eli are the same dude.
 

BaseballJones

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It helps Eli’s case immensely that his two SB wins were against the Belichick/Brady dynasty. Hate to admit that but it’s true. He didn’t beat a crappy Bears team to win the SB. He beat the Patriots twice, once when they were going for 19-0.
 

Euclis20

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If Joe Flacco won another SB would be get in? Because, without looking closely at the numbers at least, Flacco and Eli are the same dude.
Flacco is Eli-lite. He has one SB victory (in which he was excellent but did not win MVP) vs two SB MVPs for Eli. He has 0 pro bowls compared with 4 for Eli. He lost his job at age 33 compared to Eli who [likely] about to lose his job at age 38. Through age 34 Flacco has 3,555 completions, 38,805 yards and 214 TDs compared with Eli who at age 34 had 3,695 completions, 44,187 yards and 294 TDs.

If he wins another SB he'd have an argument to get in, but he's a solid step or two behind Eli in basically every conceivable way.
 

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Flacco is Eli-lite. He has one SB victory (in which he was excellent but did not win MVP) vs two SB MVPs for Eli. He has 0 pro bowls compared with 4 for Eli. He lost his job at age 33 compared to Eli who [likely] about to lose his job at age 38. Through age 34 Flacco has 3,555 completions, 38,805 yards and 214 TDs compared with Eli who at age 34 had 3,695 completions, 44,187 yards and 294 TDs.

If he wins another SB he'd have an argument to get in, but he's a solid step or two behind Eli in basically every conceivable way.
And he's also never come close to winning a 2nd Super Bowl. That was one magical year for Flacco.
 

Bowhemian

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Flacco is Eli-lite. He has one SB victory (in which he was excellent but did not win MVP) vs two SB MVPs for Eli. He has 0 pro bowls compared with 4 for Eli. He lost his job at age 33 compared to Eli who [likely] about to lose his job at age 38. Through age 34 Flacco has 3,555 completions, 38,805 yards and 214 TDs compared with Eli who at age 34 had 3,695 completions, 44,187 yards and 294 TDs.

If he wins another SB he'd have an argument to get in, but he's a solid step or two behind Eli in basically every conceivable way.
I don't know, man. He has to be the NFL career leader in passing yards gained by defensive pass interference. That alone should get him into the hall. :p
 

sodenj5

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Oooof. Finally they put him out of his misery.

No way is Jones worse than Eli. Put him out there and let him learn on the job. I actually think Jones might be half decent.
 

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I really do not think it is a coincidence that Eli could go below .500 as a starter this weekend and he is being “benched”. The cynic in me thinks there is more at play here.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Eli won't be public about wanting to leave, but I have to think he won't be happy behind the scenes sitting on the bench the rest of the year; the same as any long time starter who hasn't come to the realization of their poor play. Especially with some of the dreck other teams have to put out there at QB due to injuries, Eli may think he still has a shot elsewhere. I wonder if a trade or (maybe short-term) retirement will follow.
 

shoosh77

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This is the only move that makes sense for the franchise. It allows them the best opportunity to evaluate both Jones and Shurmur.

How long before this thread title gets changed into some pun about "DJ" or "Danny Dimes"?
I'd go with: NY Giants 2019 - Pick 6 - Daniel Jones (assuming he throws a bunch of these, including to the Pats in a few weeks).
 

Remagellan

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I really do not think it is a coincidence that Eli could go below .500 as a starter this weekend and he is being “benched”. The cynic in me thinks there is more at play here.

I get that but I think it probably had more to do with realizing that they don't have defense capable of competing for a playoff spot this season, so keeping Eli as the starter is just delaying the inevitable. The kid needs the reps---putting him in sooner rather than later is better for the team.

Also, as Francesa pointed out yesterday in his rant about the Giants, once they made this switch, they'd just be another bad team breaking in a new QB, and not a franchise dealing with the question of whether or not they're doing right by their former multiple championship QB. Add in now Shurmur can run his full offense, including out of the pocket plays for the QB, and it becomes a no-brainer.
 

BigSoxFan

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I like this. Wonder if anyone would trade for Eli. Contract makes it difficult.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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I don't think he gets ENOUGH hate for the way he orchestrated his draft day deal. Imagine if Zion did that? Or Tua next year with Miami.
Eh, these guys are treated like disposable meat bags by the league and the teams. If they can ever exert leverage then more power to them. And given how so many QB careers are basically over before they start because of the team that drafts them it’s worth trying to force the “right” draft destination. It looks like Eli got it right choosing NY.
 

ehaz

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What are the cap implications if the Giants just release Eli? Asking because you'd have to think they would grant his release if he asked for it so he could sign with his preferred team (assuming interest).
 

InstaFace

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Eh, these guys are treated like disposable meat bags by the league and the teams. If they can ever exert leverage then more power to them. And given how so many QB careers are basically over before they start because of the team that drafts them it’s worth trying to force the “right” draft destination. It looks like Eli got it right choosing NY.
He may have gotten himself to a better situation (I think NYG vs SD is arguable), but I assume the complaint is really that others complain when non franchise QBs attempt to choose their destination or otherwise control their own destiny (a la Antonio Brown but also less lightning-rod-type cases e.g. Minkah Fitzpatrick and Ramsey now), in spite of never having given Eli the same crap. And that there's likely a racial correlation in terms of whose actions are complained about. At least, that's the subtext I was reading there.
 

bsj

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Jacksonville seems like the ONLY place there may be interest.

Minshew doesnt seem like the "heir apparent" (they already have a guy under a big new contract who will be back in 2020). They arent a terrible team and may think Eli is good enough to help them now. Problem is even if they included Jalen in a deal, they dont have enough money. I dont think Eli is worth the level of restructuring they would need to do
 

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What are the cap implications if the Giants just release Eli? Asking because you'd have to think they would grant his release if he asked for it so he could sign with his preferred team (assuming interest).
Eli is in the final year of a 4-year deal that is paying him $84M over 4 years ($21M AAV). His cap hit this year is $23.2, of which $11.7 is dead cap if cut ($6.2 amortized signing, $5M roster bonus, $0.5 workout bonus). From my limited understanding, I think the Giants retain the amortized signing cap hit regardless, but a team trading for him might take with him the $5M roster bonus.
 

bsj

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What are the cap implications if the Giants just release Eli? Asking because you'd have to think they would grant his release if he asked for it so he could sign with his preferred team (assuming interest).
I believe cutting him outright would save them about $12 million
 

BaseballJones

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For all his warts, Eli would be a nice pickup for one of these teams with playoff aspirations but who have lost their starting QB.
 

ehaz

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Jacksonville seems like the ONLY place there may be interest.

Minshew doesnt seem like the "heir apparent" (they already have a guy under a big new contract who will be back in 2020). They arent a terrible team and may think Eli is good enough to help them now. Problem is even if they included Jalen in a deal, they dont have enough money. I dont think Eli is worth the level of restructuring they would need to do
What about the Saints? Sure, you're not starting the whole year but gives Eli the chance to "play" for another Superbowl and help them tread water for 6 - 8 games until Brees returns. And there's always the chance that Brees has complications.

Also Colts and Steelers depending on the development of Brissett and Rudolph? Colts and Steelers may not want to punt a year if a few games from now they feel like they can make the playoffs.