2019 Giants: Say-Say, Danny Dimes!

tims4wins

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It does come down to beating the Pats twice. But so what? He beat probably the greatest team ever assembled twice, and while the first one was a fluke he was nails in the second one.

I don’t understand the obsession with proving that he isn’t a hall of famer. 98.5 had a segment on it as well.

There’s precedence in the football hall of fame. Namath is in. Eli will probably get it in. Numbers\ability wise is he a hall of famer? I don’t think so. But add in his clutch performances and historic wins and it gets him in.
I think the obsession comes from the fact that he beat the Pats twice. Had he beaten Indy or Pittsburgh or Baltimore, I don't think we'd care nearly as much. The dude wasn't all that good but like you said had a couple of clutch, historic runs / wins. It's really hard to come up with a comp in pretty much any other sport.
 

lexrageorge

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Eli was indeed very good in that second Super Bowl win, but that Pats team was hardly "the greatest team ever assembled". It's defense was questionable all season (at best), and they benefited mightily when Cundiff missed a chip shot field goal in a game in which the Pats were mostly outplayed.

The media's obsession to name Eli an automatic, no-doubt first-ballot HoF'er is what's over the top. Terrell Owens did not get in on the first ballot. I tend to agree that if he didn't win in 2007, or wasn't Peyton's brother, or played for Carolina, he doesn't sniff the Hall.
 

reggiecleveland

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Maybe Lew Burdette is a baseball comp. Pretty average pitcher. Some solidly above average, two years as a clear very good player, one historic post season run against the dynasty of his time.
 

RIrooter09

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Eli was indeed very good in that second Super Bowl win, but that Pats team was hardly "the greatest team ever assembled". It's defense was questionable all season (at best), and they benefited mightily when Cundiff missed a chip shot field goal in a game in which the Pats were mostly outplayed.

The media's obsession to name Eli an automatic, no-doubt first-ballot HoF'er is what's over the top. Terrell Owens did not get in on the first ballot. I tend to agree that if he didn't win in 2007, or wasn't Peyton's brother, or played for Carolina, he doesn't sniff the Hall.
The 2011 defense ranked 31st in yards. Questionable is extremely generous, they sucked.
 

Mystic Merlin

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The 2011 Patriots were definitely not ‘the greatest team ever assembled.’ That defense, particularly the secondary, was hot garbage. To wit, they were ranked 30th in defensive DVOA by FO. Just look at that secondary; Jules was logging snaps as a fucking DB, and it wasn’t because Bill had a bizarre fascination with experimenting with him.

It’s astounding they got through the playoffs without a team scoring in the mid-20s or higher.
 

BaseballJones

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Even the 2007 team may not have been the greatest team ever assembled. The defense was really good, but the otherworldly offense continually put the defense in a great position. It's much easier playing D when you are up by 21 points and don't have to worry about the run.

I mean the offense was Madden-esque, obviously. The D showed signs of struggling later in the year...giving up 28 points to the Eagles, 24 to the Ravens, and 35 to the Giants in the last handful of weeks.

This DYNASTY has been the greatest ever, and maybe the 2007 team was the greatest ever. But it's entirely possible that they weren't.
 

bankshot1

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Eli was indeed very good in that second Super Bowl win, but that Pats team was hardly "the greatest team ever assembled". It's defense was questionable all season (at best), and they benefited mightily when Cundiff missed a chip shot field goal in a game in which the Pats were mostly outplayed.

The media's obsession to name Eli an automatic, no-doubt first-ballot HoF'er is what's over the top. Terrell Owens did not get in on the first ballot. I tend to agree that if he didn't win in 2007, or wasn't Peyton's brother, or played for Carolina, he doesn't sniff the Hall.
I handicapped the G-Men as a real 3 point favorite in SB 46, as the Giants were a bad match-up for the Pats d (small D) that year. And the Giants had beaten them in the regular season. That Eli could manage only 19 points is a testament that the Pats D played over their head that day.

If the refs didn't take their coffee break as Seymour was about to sack Opie, or Tyree doesn't snag the wounded duck, Eli doesn't sniff the Hall.
 

InstaFace

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There’s precedence in the football hall of fame. Namath is in. Eli will probably get it in. Numbers\ability wise is he a hall of famer? I don’t think so. But add in his clutch performances and historic wins and it gets him in.
Namath, for all his career mediocrity, was the symbol of the AFC proving that it could hang with the NFC which led to the eventual merger a few years later. It was a decisive moment in football history. It's a bit like Tommy John's case for the BB HOF, although John has more of a case: 4 years decent but not HOF-worthy peak, but add in 26 years of counting stats -> 62 WAR, and especially that those peak years came after pioneering a career-saving surgery that changed the face of pitching. And John topped out at 32% vote share, in his final year on the ballot.

Eli has some famous moments, but is not a player who changed the face of the game.

Jake Plummer, Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez and Nick Foles beat the Patriots when it really counted, too, but nobody argues that that should be enough to make them HOFers. There's a huge backlog of deserving HOF candidates who don't happen to be quarterbacks - I see no real reason to continue to admit mediocre QBs when there are other far-more-deserving non-QBs who need it. There will be plenty of QBs going into the HOF, today and tomorrow. Nobody's going to forget about the important ones.

Career passer rating:

Eli Manning 84.1
Joe Flacco 84.2
Nick Foles 88.7
 

Kliq

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The Giants beat the Patriots in both Super Bowls because they had excellent defensive lines that could get pressure on Brady by only rushing four guys; which is and always has been the key to beating the Patriots because you can't consistently blitz Brady. I thought Justin Tuck got screwed out of the SB MVP award in 2011--Eli dinked and dunked his way to 300 yards.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think the obsession comes from the fact that he beat the Pats twice. Had he beaten Indy or Pittsburgh or Baltimore, I don't think we'd care nearly as much. The dude wasn't all that good but like you said had a couple of clutch, historic runs / wins. It's really hard to come up with a comp in pretty much any other sport.
I don’t think it’s the fact that he beat the Pats twice. I think it boils down to Eli stopping 19-0 with help from one of the biggest fluke plays in sports history. Any loss in that game would have been tough but losing the way they did was very annoying.

If 2007 never happened, there wouldn’t really be anything that memorable about SB46. You’d have the Welker drop, the nice Manningham catch, and that’s basically it. It was a pretty normal SB and the 2011 team was pretty unremarkable and basically had Gronk at 20%. I wasn’t confident at all in that one. I was extremely overconfident about SB42 despite watching that same Giants team nearly beat them a few weeks prior.
 

tims4wins

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I don’t think it’s the fact that he beat the Pats twice. I think it boils down to Eli stopping 19-0 with help from one of the biggest fluke plays in sports history. Any loss in that game would have been tough but losing the way they did was very annoying.

If 2007 never happened, there wouldn’t really be anything that memorable about SB46. You’d have the Welker drop, the nice Manningham catch, and that’s basically it. It was a pretty normal SB and the 2011 team was pretty unremarkable and basically had Gronk at 20%. I wasn’t confident at all in that one. I was extremely overconfident about SB42 despite watching that same Giants team nearly beat them a few weeks prior.
I was talking more about the "obsession" with proving that Eli isn't a HoF'er. SoSH wouldn't care about "proving" it if Eli had beaten other teams. And yes, if there is no Tyree catch then Eli doesn't go to the HoF. Or probably if Welker makes the catch. Or the refs don't call the safety. Or the Pats don't have too many men on the field on the fumble. Or if the Niners don't muff multiple punts.
 

tims4wins

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Namath, for all his career mediocrity, was the symbol of the AFC proving that it could hang with the NFC which led to the eventual merger a few years later. It was a decisive moment in football history. It's a bit like Tommy John's case for the BB HOF, although John has more of a case: 4 years decent but not HOF-worthy peak, but add in 26 years of counting stats -> 62 WAR, and especially that those peak years came after pioneering a career-saving surgery that changed the face of pitching. And John topped out at 32% vote share, in his final year on the ballot.

Eli has some famous moments, but is not a player who changed the face of the game.

Jake Plummer, Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez and Nick Foles beat the Patriots when it really counted, too, but nobody argues that that should be enough to make them HOFers. There's a huge backlog of deserving HOF candidates who don't happen to be quarterbacks - I see no real reason to continue to admit mediocre QBs when there are other far-more-deserving non-QBs who need it. There will be plenty of QBs going into the HOF, today and tomorrow. Nobody's going to forget about the important ones.

Career passer rating:

Eli Manning 84.1
Joe Flacco 84.2
Nick Foles 88.7
I made the point about Flacco earlier. He doesn't have the counting stats, but he beat the Pats in FOXBORO twice. That's way harder than winning on a neutral field. He also almost did it a 3rd time, and likely would have gone to the Super Bowl had they won that game. Even if they lose to Seattle in the Super Bowl, would Flacco be a HoF candidate with 2 SB appearances, 1 title, and 3 playoff wins over the Pats in Foxboro?
 

BigSoxFan

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I was talking more about the "obsession" with proving that Eli isn't a HoF'er. SoSH wouldn't care about "proving" it if Eli had beaten other teams. And yes, if there is no Tyree catch then Eli doesn't go to the HoF. Or probably if Welker makes the catch. Or the refs don't call the safety. Or the Pats don't have too many men on the field on the fumble. Or if the Niners don't muff multiple punts.
Gotcha. And agreed. The no HOF obsession is a Pats fan-centric one due to the SBs.
 

bankshot1

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I think the obsession comes from the fact that he beat the Pats twice. Had he beaten Indy or Pittsburgh or Baltimore, I don't think we'd care nearly as much. The dude wasn't all that good but like you said had a couple of clutch, historic runs / wins. It's really hard to come up with a comp in pretty much any other sport.
The Eli comp is tough. I'm thinking Bill Mazerowski. If he doesn't hit the Game 7 Tyree in the '60 WS, the light hitting but good glover, is probably not in the HoF.
 

Al Zarilla

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Conerly, meanwhile, led the league in QBR once, TD% once, Y/A once, and INT% thrice. He did lead the league in interceptions once. I think I'd still lean Eli, but I have to admit I don't know a lot about Conerly. I definitely put Eli ahead of Simms, who has the same amount of dominant seasons (0) and half as many Super Bowls wins as starter and Pro Bowls.
Conerly played in kind of golden age for quarterbacks, so a lot of competition for leading the league in QB stats.

Graham
Tittle
Layne
Waterfield
Van Brocklin
Lujack
Unitas
Rote

Six hall of famers from 12 teams (Of course their careers didn't overlap perfectly, as some were skewed earlier and some later than Conerly's). Circa 80s-90s had more HOF QBs but there were 28 to 30 teams. Conerly never made the HOF I think because his counting stats were too low (not even 20,000 yards passing) but they were way higher than Bob Waterfield's, for example.

Eli, Simms and Conerly top 3 Giants QBs.
 

Super Nomario

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There’s precedence in the football hall of fame. Namath is in. Eli will probably get it in. Numbers\ability wise is he a hall of famer? I don’t think so. But add in his clutch performances and historic wins and it gets him in.
Namath's career numbers look unimpressive, but I think he's more of a Terrell Davis type where he was considered one of the greatest players of his era but his career was shortened due to injury. He was great from '66-'69 and then got hurt and really only had one more healthy, effective season ('72). The on-field / off-field discrepancy when he played versus when the Jets' backup(s) was pretty extreme.

The Giants beat the Patriots in both Super Bowls because they had excellent defensive lines that could get pressure on Brady by only rushing four guys; which is and always has been the key to beating the Patriots because you can't consistently blitz Brady. I thought Justin Tuck got screwed out of the SB MVP award in 2011--Eli dinked and dunked his way to 300 yards.
The dinking and dunking was huge, though, because it kept the Patriots offense off the field. The Patriots only had nine drives all game, and for the last one they had less than a minute.
 

tims4wins

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Namath's career numbers look unimpressive, but I think he's more of a Terrell Davis type where he was considered one of the greatest players of his era but his career was shortened due to injury. He was great from '66-'69 and then got hurt and really only had one more healthy, effective season ('72). The on-field / off-field discrepancy when he played versus when the Jets' backup(s) was pretty extreme.


The dinking and dunking was huge, though, because it kept the Patriots offense off the field. The Patriots only had nine drives all game, and for the last one they had less than a minute.
The safety helped too - in a way it stole a possession from the Pats.
 

Super Nomario

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The safety helped too - in a way it stole a possession from the Pats.
And the safety was set up by the Giants O. They started the game with a 10-play, six-minute, 35-yard drive that crossed into Pats territory. So Brady and co started that drive at the six. NE's O had awful field position all day.
 

DrewDawg

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I think the obsession comes from the fact that he beat the Pats twice. Had he beaten Indy or Pittsburgh or Baltimore, I don't think we'd care nearly as much. The dude wasn't all that good but like you said had a couple of clutch, historic runs / wins. It's really hard to come up with a comp in pretty much any other sport.
I'd rather say we were beaten by a HOFer as opposed to a run of the mill guy.
 

TFisNEXT

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I made the point about Flacco earlier. He doesn't have the counting stats, but he beat the Pats in FOXBORO twice. That's way harder than winning on a neutral field. He also almost did it a 3rd time, and likely would have gone to the Super Bowl had they won that game. Even if they lose to Seattle in the Super Bowl, would Flacco be a HoF candidate with 2 SB appearances, 1 title, and 3 playoff wins over the Pats in Foxboro?
4 times if you count the Cundiff chip-shot game in the 2011 AFCCG.
 

InstaFace

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I'd rather say we were beaten by a HOFer as opposed to a run of the mill guy.
I'd rather Eli not hog up all the glory properly due to the Giants' championship-worthy defensive line. I didn't like it then or now, but they had the biggest impact in both games, start-to-finish, of any unit on either sideline.
 

Reverend

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Eli HOF hype makes more sense when you think of it in historical context. Not just that he beat the Patriots, but for awhile he was the only QB to beat the Pats in the Super Bowl and it was widely seen as potentially the ending of the dynasty.

That will make a guy famous. It looks a little different now, though, as the dynasty didn’t end and the Patriots have since lost to another QB in the SB.

Today, beating the Patriots fees more like something that would happen inevitably by sheer dint of the Pats being in the Super Bowl so often as basic statistics. But at the time the hype started, Eli was the dragon killer and, yeah, that’ll make a guy famous.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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If Eli is a Hall of Famer, what about Coughlin? He won those same two Super Bowls that Eli did over Brady and Belichick, and he should be able to take credit for both Eli’s play and for the defense that did the work of largely shutting down the Pat’s offense both times, since he was the head coach and responsible for all aspects of the team. He’s also got a better career regular season record than Eli (20 games over .500 to Eli’s exactly .500 record). You don’t really see Coughlin talked about in the same way, even though the primary argument - those two big game victories - should be the same.

Edit: to head off the argument that Eli also has the argument of extended regular season stat accumulation, Coughlin has only two fewer regular season wins than Bill Parcels (and obviously has the same number of Super Bowl victories as a head coach); he’s also got 27 more regular season wins than Marv Levy, who is also in Canton. Overall he’s tied for 13th in NFL history in wins by a head coach, which seems like a decent proxy for Eli’s counting stats as a passer.
 
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Reverend

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If Eli is a Hall of Famer, what about Coughlin? He won those same two Super Bowls that Eli did over Brady and Belichick, and he should be able to take credit for both Eli’s play and for the defense that did the work of largely shutting down the Pat’s offense both times, since he was the head coach and responsible for all aspects of the team. He’s also got a better career regular season record than Eli (20 games over .500 to Eli’s exactly .500 record). You don’t really see Coughlin talked about in the same way, even though the primary argument - those two big game victories - should be the same.
Not to speak for anyone else, but after 20 years of following Belichick, I consider myself woefully unqualified to evaluate any other head coach in a fair manner.
 

ragnarok725

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I'd rather Eli not hog up all the glory properly due to the Giants' championship-worthy defensive line. I didn't like it then or now, but they had the biggest impact in both games, start-to-finish, of any unit on either sideline.
There is also just a privilege angle to Eli hate. Eli is coasting on 3 different levels of it. He has the Manning name, he has the NY attention (which he and his family engineered), and he was the beneficiary of being the QB in the right time at the right place with a defense that put him in position to win.

I don't think it's a stretch to say there's nobody else in sports history who has had to do less in order to be considered for the HoF.
 

lexrageorge

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Well, if we want to talk about Super Bowl wins as being a key criteria, why not consider the guy with the following stats as a wide receiver in 3 Super Bowls (all wins):

24 catches, 141 yards, 1 TD, 17 first downs, 1 Super Bowl MVP

And, if we include the one Super Bowl where he did not line up at receiver (a loss), this same player should also be credited with 11 punt returns for 142 yards.

To be fair, some commentators are calling for him to be inducted.
 

Pandemonium67

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4 times if you count the Cundiff chip-shot game in the 2011 AFCCG.
Nitpick, but that chip shot would've only tied the game and sent it to OT. (And Brady tends to do well in OT, though we'll never know how that would've played out.)

Of course, the Ravens had a TD catch slapped away at the last second, just moments before the Cundiff boner. They just about had that game won.
 

Michelle34B

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Jack Morris would be a decent comp for Eli. No Cy Youngs, his longevity helped a lot of his counting stats, never had a sub 3.00 ERA. Three-time World Series Champion. 7-0 postseason record for the 1984 Tigers and 1991 Twins. MVP of the 1991 WS, his signature moment being the Game 7 10 inning complete game shutout to win the world series. 0-4 in two other postseason appearances with the 1987 Tigers and 1992 Blue Jays.
 

StuckOnYouk

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Bear with me as it may seem odd that I'm a Sox/Giants fan (happens in CT), but hear me out.

While I followed all this MVP stuff a lot when I was a kid, as i get older I find that I couldn't give two sh*ts about individual awards or HOF inductions. It was dumb that Pedro got robbed of his MVP, but I didn't really care much. And I don't really care either way if Eli Manning makes it to the HOF.

But I do think I need to stick up for the guy after all the crap that gets dumped on him.

I'll grant you that Eli has been a pedestrian regular season QB more often than not, but no one can minimize what he did in 2007 and 2011. Those were great runs that he was a huge part of. And this was the part of his career where he was clutch in the regular season as well. In 2011 he had the 2nd best QB rating in the 4th Quarter, throwing for 15 TD's, which at the time was an NFL record until Russell Wilson topped it 2 years ago.

In 2007, he had a run that is impossible to beat - defeating the 1 and 2 seeds on the road and then beating an undefeated team in the Super Bowl. Throughout that playoff run, he put up better QB ratings in each game than his counterparts Garcia, Romo, Favre and Brady...all while being sacked more times (9) then they were (8)...which leads me to my next point...

When did the 2007 Giants defense morph into the 1985 Bears in people's minds?

In 2007 the Patriots defense was just as good - they forced more turnovers than the NYG (31 to 25) and gave up fewer yards per game (3rd fewest compared to NYG 6th). The Giants and Patriots were ranked 1 and 2 respectively in sacks and 2/3 respectively in QB hits. Considering the defenses were fairly similar I could make the argument that Eli had a tougher task than Brady in the Super Bowl seeing that he was facing a very good defense AND Belichick. And yet a constant drumbeat from the Eli haters is that Tom Brady was the only one to face a top defense in that game.

Manning's numbers in the 4th quarter of the 2007 game were 9-14, 152 yards and 2 TD's and he led the team 85 yards down the field in the final 3 minutes. That' s why he earned the MVP. It wasn't just a "hey lets give it to the QB of the winning team".

In 2011 he beats a respectable 10-6 Atlanta team at home, but then has to go on the road to beat the 15-1 Packers (1 seed) and the 13-3 49ers (2 seed) before beating the 13-3 Patriots again in the SB. Again during the run he puts up better QB ratings than Ryan, Rodgers, and Brady along the way. While facing a great SF defense, he got sacked, knocked down or hit 36 times (6 sacks) and yet still managed to throw for 316 yards with 2 TD's and 0 interceptions. To me, this was as much where he got my respect as either of the 2 SB wins. The balls he showed to hang in there and make passes while getting slammed all over the field by that SF defense was amazing. I recall at least 2 or 3 times the helmet almost getting knocked off his head on a hit, with the chinstrap barely keeping it on.

And again in the 2011 SB he engineers a 90 yard drive in the final minutes of the SB. led by one of the greatest throws/catches in the history of the sport. 30 for 40, nearly 300 yards. Another well-earned SB MVP.

Two years ago in his only playoff game vs. Green Bay he would have started 13 for 13 if not for four drops by the Yacht boys - Odell Beckham and Sterling Shepard - with two of those drops happening in the end zone. Instead of the GIants being up by 10-14 points, Rodgers spins some magic in the final seconds of the half and the Giants are losing only to get steamrolled in the second half.

And I haven't even discussed the fact that for much of his career (certainly the 2nd half of his career) he's had an average to below average offensive line to work with - if that. The last 6 years have been a debacle with Jerry Reese ultimately getting fired because of his derelict of duty in getting any OL talent worth a damn. Hell last year they lose their center in week 2 or 3 and Gettleman has to cut the entire right side of the line by the half-way point because they're so horrible. Not that Pro Bowl nominations are the end-all-be-all but I don't believe the Giants have had an OL make the pro bowl since O'Hara in 2010. And the Giants sure as hell haven't had a Belechick/Scarnecchia combo that can turn any 5 random guys from so and so college into a well-oiled macine every year.

Anyway, figured I'd actually be the guy that stands up for Eli Manning and give a toast to his career. Carry on.
 
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BigJimEd

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Gotcha. And agreed. The no HOF obsession is a Pats fan-centric one due to the SBs.
Not really true. They had a lengthy segment on one of the ESPN shows. Four of the hosts didn't think he deserved to be in but would get in. The other was on the fence on whether he should be in but agreed he would.
I've heard other national guys discussing it as well. Pats fans may be more emotionally invested but the discussion isn't limited to them.
 

johnmd20

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There is also just a privilege angle to Eli hate. Eli is coasting on 3 different levels of it. He has the Manning name, he has the NY attention (which he and his family engineered), and he was the beneficiary of being the QB in the right time at the right place with a defense that put him in position to win.

I don't think it's a stretch to say there's nobody else in sports history who has had to do less in order to be considered for the HoF.
He stayed healthy in the NFL, as a Quarterback, for 15 years. That is an achievement, in and of itself. Eli is going to make the hall because of the SBs. He's not elite and he probably shouldn't get in, but the hall of fame is weird. I do not, however, have a problem if Eli does make it. His SB wins were notable. Lucky, but notable.

Still, let's not act like Manning didn't show up for every game for a decade and a half. That is not easy to do.
 

bankshot1

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Seems Brother Finn has been checking in. His Opie observation from today's Globe.

With this lead-in

"I have four miniature gripes this week. I am annoyed with . . .

"Anyone who thinks Eli Manning is a lock for the Hall of Fame. He deserves consideration for his performances in the Giants’ two Super Bowl victories over the Patriots. But he was also a .500 quarterback who never led the league in anything but interceptions (he did that three times). He was Jim Plunkett with better job security, and if he wasn’t a Manning on a New York team, we wouldn’t be talking about this right now. Drew Bledsoe was a better quarterback."
 

bigq

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Daniel Jones was 23-36 for 336 yards with 2 passing TDs and 2 rushing TDs today. Continuing to put up lines like that will make the NY faithful quickly forget about Eli.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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And he did that despite playing behind a porous offensive line. All that time running for his life at Duke really paid off!
 

Michelle34B

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  1. Backup quarterback to start the year
  2. One point win
  3. In Tampa
  4. WIDE RIGHT
Nice 18-point comeback DJ, hat tip to the defense only giving up 3 points in the second half. I hope Saquon's ankle is okay. So this is what it's like to have an emotional win in the NFL.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The kid made some really tough throws and showed great pocket awareness. At least for one week, Gettleman looks like a smart person for taking him.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I was looking forward to seeing how we defended Saquon. But once again, another easy matchup becomes even easier.