2019 AB Watch: Legal & Exemption List Posts Only

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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I guess the part that nobody seems to talk about is whether any of this moves the needle at all with respect to whether or not one should believe Ms. Taylor.

My view is that I actually am more predisposed to believe her and I actually am thinking that there's enough of a chance that a rape occurred that I don't want any part of this guy.

Judging credibility in a he-said/she-said is always hard but the story about the washcloth strikes me as completely believable. It is specific. She is not asking for money. It's eye-rolling enough and consistent with other stuff that we've seen reported that I think it may very have happened, especially taking his response into account.

And that makes me more likely to believe that he has boundary issues that would be not inconsistent with ejaculating on a woman's back without consent and to having sex with her without consent.

We've used proxies to avoid asking the hard question here. "Anyone can bring a civil suit." Or "some guy named asshole bob says he's got texts that show someone may have been extorting her." Or "let's focus on the commissioner's exempt list."

My view: I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that the rape allegation is untrue and if I had to vote right now based on the sum total of what I know whether or not he did it, I'm inclined to say it's more probabld than not that he his a rapist.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I don't think the league will rule him in violation of the PCP unilaterally, letting team completely off hook.
Yep, he's probably looking at exempt list first and then investigation and then potential discipline which puts the team in a tough spot.

I'm sure they are also worried about whether it is better to be proactive and cut ties with him now or let the league take the lead. They seem to be opting toward the latter and that makes sense I guess from a protect-9-million-in-cap-space perspective but not from a public relations perspective. It's a tough spot for the team.
 
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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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She's not asking for money?
Is she?

Maybe I misunderstood but I read the article as saying that she came forward to a reporter when the story broke about Ms. Taylor, but where have you seen that she's doing it to try to get money?
 

Rice14

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No. As far as we know, a reporter digging into AB's history found her. She had not filed suit against him.

Clearly, AB thinks she wants cash though.
Which really makes no sense. The only benefit to him paying her would be to keep it quiet and avoid bad press...so once she tells a reporter about it and the story is published, she has no more leverage. If she wanted money, telling her tale to a reporter for free seems like an odd way to do it.
 

DrewDawg

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Which really makes no sense. The only benefit to him paying her would be to keep it quiet and avoid bad press...so once she tells a reporter about it and the story is published, she has no more leverage. If she wanted money, telling her tale to a reporter for free seems like an odd way to do it.
It makes sense if it's AB venting that she only did this because she wanted money (true or not doesn't matter). He may think SI paid her for her story. Or he may think that she could spill more dirt.
 

Reverend

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Yep, he's probably looking at exempt list first and then investigation and then potential discipline which puts the team in a tough spot.

I'm sure they are also worried about whether it is better to be proactive and cut ties with him now or let the league take the lead. They seem to be opting toward the former and that makes sense I guess from a protect-9-million-in-cap-space perspective but not from a public relations perspective. It's a tough spot for the team.
Do you mean the former or the latter-I’m confused.
 

InstaFace

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It makes sense if it's AB venting that she only did this because she wanted money (true or not doesn't matter). He may think SI paid her for her story. Or he may think that she could spill more dirt.
We're talking about the new allegation? I thought the dispute centered around $700 that she believes AB owes to a charity?
 

DrewDawg

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We're talking about the new allegation? I thought the dispute centered around $700 that she believes AB owes to a charity?
Perhaps everyone is getting confused.

This is the lady involved with painting something in his house. The SI reporters found her after talking to a charity AB did business with. She may very well believe AB owes the charity and/or her money. But she is not suing him for it or, as far as we know, blackmailing him for it.

That's why some are confused when AB is saying she's doing it for money, because as far as we know now, that's not the case.
 

Ed Hillel

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For me, the timeline issue with Ms. Taylor and my personal belief she lied about the nature of her relationship with Antonio Brown puts me in a place I will not reach a confidence level with which I’d be willing to cut him absent more direct evidence. I’m also personally very wary of “pattern of behavior” evidence, and prefer to look at each alleged incident within its own scope first. House of cards and such.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Perhaps everyone is getting confused.

This is the lady involved with painting something in his house. The SI reporters found her after talking to a charity AB did business with. She may very well believe AB owes the charity and/or her money. But she is not suing him for it or, as far as we know, blackmailing him for it.

That's why some are confused when AB is saying she's doing it for money, because as far as we know now, that's not the case.
Yes, sorry, my posting has been shit. Not careful. I'll try again, though it's all speculation anyway.

The un-named mural painter claims that he approached her with a small towel covering his private parts in 2017. She is reported to have sent a letter yesterday to the NFL after the texts came out and in it she reaffirms she has not and is not seeking money from AB. This is apparently a response to AB's suggestion and belief in the text that she was making the allegation about the washcloth-covered-approach for money because she has children, which apparently is AB's reason for seeming to ask (if the texts are genuine) that his friends look into her finances.

The point I was trying (poorly) to make is that the story has some things that make it seem highly plausible to me. It's very specific. It's not particularly sensational. It is the kind of routine, disgusting behavior that we seem to expect women to tolerate in these kind of situations and of which they are required to put up with all the time. It's consistent with other things that seem to get reported about Brown. Her explanation for why she brushed it off even though it bothered her at the time seems like what I imagine women have to deal with. She does not seem like she's really psyched about the limelight (although who really knows). And she has gone on record that she doesn't want money.

And then I was taking a leap about what this might mean with respect to Ms. Taylor's allegations.

Sorry, again, for some shitposting and for being confusing.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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For me, the timeline issue with Ms. Taylor and my personal belief she lied about the nature of her relationship with Antonio Brown puts me in a place I will not reach a confidence level with which I’d be willing to cut him absent more direct evidence. I’m also personally very wary of “pattern of behavior” evidence, and prefer to look at each alleged incident within its own scope first. House of cards and such.
Posted a similar thought in the morality thread (man, it took AB for BBtL to have a fudging morality thread). I agree with EH's view.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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For me, the timeline issue with Ms. Taylor and my personal belief she lied about the nature of her relationship with Antonio Brown puts me in a place I will not reach a confidence level with which I’d be willing to cut him absent more direct evidence. I’m also personally very wary of “pattern of behavior” evidence, and prefer to look at each alleged incident within its own scope first. House of cards and such.
Are you sure that's not the laundry? Let me try to test the issue just a bit.

Suppose that there was a video of someone ejaculating on someone's back and it's clear that it's not with consent. The problem is, that it's not clear who has done it. It has to be one of two men. But it could be either. Let's say the two men are roommates. Let's say the woman was a vendor -- she was brought into the house to personally train them. She's around the house because of this.

Now suppose you knew that very same year, Roommate A had approached a vendor in the house -- say a housepainter -- and had approached her in a suggestive way covering his junk with a washtowel? Still think it's equally likely that it could be either roommate that did the ejaculating? Other than not having video and being far less certain of the veracity of any story isn't this a no brainer?

I'm no sociologist or shrink. But he did it before he probably did it this time seems actually to be a pretty good rule of thumb.
 

E5 Yaz

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He's owed $5M on Monday. I suspect this story changes significantly by then
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Are you sure that's not the laundry? Let me try to test the issue just a bit.

Suppose that there was a video of someone ejaculating on someone's back and it's clear that it's not with consent. The problem is, that it's not clear who has done it. It has to be one of two men. But it could be either. Let's say the two men are roommates. Let's say the woman was a vendor -- she was brought into the house to personally train them. She's around the house because of this.

Now suppose you knew that very same year, Roommate A had approached a vendor in the house -- say a housepainter -- and had approached her in a suggestive way covering his junk with a washtowel? Still think it's equally likely that it could be either roommate that did the ejaculating? Other than not having video and being far less certain of the veracity of any story isn't this a no brainer?

I'm no sociologist or shrink. But he did it before he probably did it this time seems actually to be a pretty good rule of thumb.
You're glossing over the biggest part. Where is it clear there was no consent for Brown to cum on her back?
 

Red Averages

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I read this thread before any news and assumed an 80% chance he was cut today. After reading the stories and such, my own odds would be closer to 10-20%. Not saying I agree/disagree with the emotion, but I think if we stick to the facts that are known today that's where I'd stand.
 

8slim

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It seems reasonable people can disagree. It’s certainly terrible judgement to be contacting any accusers, or really doing anything at all besides putting his head down and going to work while letting the league disciplinary and legal processes play out. But saying he made threats using her children seems like a real stretch to me.
Yeah, we can disagree. Why on Earth would he include a picture of her kids if it wasn't meant to intimidate her? I tried to conjure up the "well, actually" response and I can't think of any reason whatsoever.
 

DrewDawg

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I read this thread before any news and assumed an 80% chance he was cut today. After reading the stories and such, my own odds would be closer to 10-20%. Not saying I agree/disagree with the emotion, but I think if we stick to the facts that are known today that's where I'd stand.
If he was getting cut today, he would not have practiced. They would have had to get whoever is taking his reps up to speed as quick as possible and there would be no need to waste time.

Disclaimer that this is based on what is now known.
 

EvilEmpire

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You're glossing over the biggest part. Where is it clear there was no consent for Brown to cum on her back?
She said there wasn't.

I mean, yeah, people can look for discrepancies in her story and try to make an assessment on her credibility. That is fine.

I think they should probably do the same with AB. Of the two, and given what we know about a whole boatload of incidents, his credibility seems less.
 

TheoShmeo

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Is it possible the $5 mil has already been paid (early)?
Highly unlikely. Most businesses prefer optionality and only pay when they have to. And particularly in a situation like this, when it’s possible that the ground may change at any moment. Unless there’s some advantage in paying early that I’m unaware of, the Pats will wait.
 

Captaincoop

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Yep, he's probably looking at exempt list first and then investigation and then potential discipline which puts the team in a tough spot.

I'm sure they are also worried about whether it is better to be proactive and cut ties with him now or let the league take the lead. They seem to be opting toward the latter and that makes sense I guess from a protect-9-million-in-cap-space perspective but not from a public relations perspective. It's a tough spot for the team.
The washcloth thing has nothing to do with her, right? That accuser IS looking for money.

Hard to keep track when you're accused by 10 different parties of 10 different things...
 

geoduck no quahog

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I’m agnostic, but since this came out I’m wondering how the masturbation incident cannot be rape. I mean at some point he needs to take his pants down and start jacking off. Either the woman couldn’t flee or he held her down. Either option required use of force.

If he was already naked, she would have been held against her will.

Am I missing something?
 

Shelterdog

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I’m agnostic, but since this came out I’m wondering how the masturbation incident cannot be rape. I mean at some point he needs to take his pants down and start jacking off. Either the woman couldn’t flee or he held her down. Either option required use of force.

Am I missing something?
Yes. The complaint actually says that he ejaculated on her without her knowledge when she was watching a church video which is illegal and immoral (and also totally gross) but not rape under most definitions (generally you need genital or anal contact of some kind). Also the use of force isn't a requirement for rape (drugs, someone's passed out, even mistaken identity count). Also I don't think there's ever any kind of imputed obligation for the woman to flee.
 
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lexrageorge

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I’m agnostic, but since this came out I’m wondering how the masturbation incident cannot be rape. I mean at some point he needs to take his pants down and start jacking off. Either the woman couldn’t flee or he held her down. Either option required use of force.

If he was already naked, she would have been held against her will.

Am I missing something?
One of the many things you are missing is that the DA's office in Allegheny county interviewed Taylor's attorney about that specific allegation. After the interview, they concluded that the statute of limitations had already been passed on any potential criminal charge resulting from that incident. My assumption is that they had a lot more details than we have, and agreed with the accuser herself that it wasn't rape.
 

Reverend

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Reverend

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The washcloth thing has nothing to do with her, right? That accuser IS looking for money.

Hard to keep track when you're accused by 10 different parties of 10 different things...
From what I’ve seen, including the letter just posted, she isn’t seeking money. But yes, the “washcloth incident” was with the artist.

Edit: What drewdawg said.
 

Preacher

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I’m agnostic, but since this came out I’m wondering how the masturbation incident cannot be rape. I mean at some point he needs to take his pants down and start jacking off. Either the woman couldn’t flee or he held her down. Either option required use of force.

If he was already naked, she would have been held against her will.

Am I missing something?
Most jurisdictions use a definition of rape that requires penetration. I think in Florida, they call it sexual battery but it still requires non-consensual oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by a sexual organ or non-consensual anal or vaginal penetration by any object.
 

InstaFace

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I agree with Rev that it's weird that an employer would direct an employee's out-of-work conduct; however, the employment contract that employee signed contains all sorts of agreements to do or not do certain things, which go well beyond what the rest of us put up with (as does the compensation).

This actually seems like a proportional and mature response by all involved, assuming it stops here.
- The letter from the source's lawyer basically says "look there's a bunch of shit here, and we don't want to pursue it, but Brown needs to knock it off"
- The NFL and the Patriots have confirmed that they told Brown to knock it off
- If Brown does actually knock it off from this point forward (which reasonable people may clearly doubt), it's entirely possible the matter stops here, because both the NFL and the Patriots can say that they dealt with it, made a statement publicly, and consider the matter closed.

Read that letter that Klemko posted, if you haven't already. The lawyer says her client doesn't want money, doesn't want attention, and just wants to be left alone. That's not exactly consistent with speaking to a Sports Illustrated reporter, but Brown isn't in a position to argue that. The attorney also alludes to other parties on the text messages being "a convicted steroid and drug dealer", so there's clear-but-subtle threats there. Despite all of that, my read is that this particular incident goes away if Brown puts down the shovel and stops digging.
 

RedOctober3829

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Two women:

1--Former trainer, Britney Taylor--looking for money
2--Washcloth lady--painter, not looking for money
It's very odd to me why #2 isn't just going to the police to file a criminal complaint against Brown rather than doing what she's doing with the NFL. If she's not looking for money and wants to bring Brown to justice why isn't she?
 

Shelterdog

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Two women:

1--Former trainer, Britney Taylor--looking for money
2--Washcloth lady--painter, not looking for money
Not that it matters (if you get assaulted or harassed by someone maybe you should be looking for money!) but I wouldn't be so sure that (2) isn't looking for money--she has a plaintiff's attorney, is contacting the media through her attorney, etc.

To answer RedOctober there are a lot of reasons but the number one reason you wouldn't bring a criminal complaint is that it doesn't really appear that he engaged in criminal conduct. Maybe someone can think of a misdemeanor that would appply but being on your property and talking to a woman while naked except for a washcloth just isn't a serious crime.
 
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DrewDawg

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One of her lawyers is Debra Katz, who should be familiar to folks that have watched the news over past year or so.
 

DrewDawg

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It's very odd to me why #2 isn't just going to the police to file a criminal complaint against Brown rather than doing what she's doing with the NFL. If she's not looking for money and wants to bring Brown to justice why isn't she?
Because she wasn't doing anything with AB and maybe just wants him to stop and doesn't want him arrested.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I hope everyone in this thread that screamed "The texts were not threatening!!!!" reads that letter. The woman felt threatened and feels like she is in danger. That should be enough to get him the fuck off the team.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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You're glossing over the biggest part. Where is it clear there was no consent for Brown to cum on her back?
We don't know that he did either thing -- the washcloth or the ejaculation on the back. The question for Ed was whether, if you knew he did one, it makes the other more likely.
 

Koufax

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But his response, pointing out that he had not responded, was sublime.
 

jcd0805

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I hope everyone in this thread that screamed "The texts were not threatening!!!!" reads that letter. The woman felt threatened and feels like she is in danger. That should be enough to get him the fuck off the team.
Agreed. I have no idea what happened with the trainer so I was not calling for him to be cut just based on that. but they have freaking texts of him trying to intimidate a woman who never did anything but tell how he made her uncomfortable when she painted a mural for him. Even that incident didn't make me think they should cut him-yes it was gross of him to do that but he didn't hold her against her will, he was probably seeing if she seemed interested and when she wasn't that was that. But texting that shit to her??? He's a scumbag who needs to be gone from this team.
 
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