2017-18 NBA Regular Season Game/Observation Thread

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Except for the part where The Warriors have been much worse without Curry, while the Cavs (this season) have weirdly been a bit better without LeBron.
Cavs being better without LBJ probably has to do with two things: (1) a bunch of blowouts where LBJ stopped playing defense, and (2) substitution patterns.

CLE without LBJ would be in contention for the #1 pick IMO. GSW without Curry stills has three All-Stars plus parts.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I’m not trying to disparage Curry. He’s amazing. But LeBron is simply a better all around player and I don’t think any non-Dubs fans would dispute that. I would love to plop him on some shit team and see how he would handle it over the course of an 82 game season. I think Klay and Draymond would dispute that Curry carried them those years. Curry was clearly the Alpha but he had plenty of help. These kinds of arguments are obviously hard to resolve since they’re mostly speculative.

In the end, I don’t think LeBron and this Cavs team are anywhere near locks to make the Finals. But if I had to make a pick with my life depending on it, I’m taking LeBron vs. a Raptors team that has never proven squat in the playoffs and a Celtics team that will be without Hayward with other key guys at less than 100%. Nobody else in the East even registers for me.
We've actually seen him with these shit teams earlier in his career......66 and 61 wins with Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison's corpse, Daniel Gibson, Delonte, Anthony Parker starting for 81 games, etc. is just one of them. Noboby has ever done more with less over 82 games than LeBron......Oscar Robertson went 4 straight seasons of his prime without being over .500, Kobe won in the 40's a few times post-Shaq, etc.
 

cheech13

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Latest on Kawhi and a team meeting where his teammates begged him to come back:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22870675/san-antonio-spurs-held-players-only-meeting-imploring-kawhi-leonard-return-playoff-push

Where are we on this Kawhi thing? It seems like most people have generally ignored it since it's the Spurs and they have the stability in their organization to usually work these things out, but I'm now leaning toward him being traded this offseason. I think that relationship may be damaged beyond repair.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Pretty sure BSF was talking about prime Curry being dumped on a crap team, something we have not seen. I guess he'd be comparable to last year's Harden, only slightly better on-court and way better off-court (from the scrubs to the stars, players love being Steph's teammate, which hasn't always been the case with Harden or LeBron). But this is quite hypothetical, as I'm dubious he would physically hold up to carrying a crap team for ~36-38 mpg over 82 games and 20-25 playoff games as well as LeBron and Harden have.

Edit: BSF, not WBCD.
 
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BigSoxFan

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Pretty sure WBCD was talking about prime Curry being dumped on a crap team, something we have not seen. I guess he'd be comparable to last year's Harden, only slightly better on-court and way better off-court (from the scrubs to the stars, players love being Steph's teammate, which hasn't always been the case with Harden or LeBron). But this is quite hypothetical, as I'm dubious he would physically hold up to carrying a crap team for ~36-38 mpg over 82 games and 20-25 playoff games as well as LeBron and Harden have.
Yup was referring to Curry. It would be interesting to see this version of Curry plopped onto a team like the Suns or something.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I could see a starting 5 of Curry-Booker-Jackson-Warren-Chandler (with a slightly more experienced bench than they have) getting to 45-50 wins, given good health.

Edit: apples-to-apples, I also feel something like Curry-Smith-Crowder-Love-Nance might be a better starting 5 than the current Cavs, as it would allow Love to flash some of the slick playmaking skills that made him an elite player in Minny, plus just allow everyone to play with less hierarchy, better ball movement, and more joy (instead of being constantly “sonned” and browbeaten to the point of having panic attacks or demanding trades to the Celtics.)
 
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LondonSox

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If Steph Curry posted a stat line like Lebron did tonight it leads sportscenter and gets the front page of ESPN.com. For Lebron it is just a random Tuesday night.


This is great -
Blew out the tanking grizzlies last night so badly. The starters we're out and fooling around by halfway through the 3rd (which is nice as they have a back to back with travel to Orlando)

Sixers are.... Up to 4th seed
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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LeBron played a nearly perfect game due to him being a nightmare matchup problem for Toronto who used poor Pascal Siakam 26 minutes as their best option. The Cavs were also forced to start Calderon and Green, play them a combined 65 minutes, while also using Zizic and Holland in their rotation with Korver, Thompson, Hood, and Nance out of the lineup. Over the last 6 games covering two seasons the only time the Raptors have beaten Cleveland was when the Cavs sat LeBron, Kyrie and Love in the final game of last season and earlier this year when Isaiah was singlehandedly sabotaging the Cavs season. They did get stops defensively throughout the 2nd half and down the stretch so not being able to stop anyone isn't what occurred last night against the upcoming 1-seed.

The game was significant as it magnified the matchup problem that the Raptors continue to have with LeBron which positively affects the working environment of his teammates in getting them open looks, etc. particularly in the 4th quarter. Was this not apparent even with his lesser skilled role players on the floor last night?
You may be right about the match up issue LeBron creates for Toronto - he clearly is a problem for the Raptors. However assuming that his teammates will shoot 62.5% from deep as a result is a huge leap. That, aside from James' dominance, was the true difference in this game.
 

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I could see a starting 5 of Curry-Booker-Jackson-Warren-Chandler (with a slightly more experienced bench than they have) getting to 45-50 wins, given good health.
Curry with Booker would allow all those frontcourt players to find their niche in a specific role. Right now that team without Booker doesn't allow anyone on that team to do anything that resembles NBA basketball.
.
 

johnmd20

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Latest on Kawhi and a team meeting where his teammates begged him to come back:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22870675/san-antonio-spurs-held-players-only-meeting-imploring-kawhi-leonard-return-playoff-push

Where are we on this Kawhi thing? It seems like most people have generally ignored it since it's the Spurs and they have the stability in their organization to usually work these things out, but I'm now leaning toward him being traded this offseason. I think that relationship may be damaged beyond repair.
It's insane to me that this story isn't getting more coverage. It's more baffling than Fultz.
 

BigSoxFan

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It's insane to me that this story isn't getting more coverage. It's more baffling than Fultz.
Agreed. I used to live in SA and lots of Spurs fans that I know are turning on him. I think there’s a very good chance he gets dealt this offseason.

He seems pissed at the organization for whatever reason and may be giving them a giant F U.
 

cheech13

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It's insane to me that this story isn't getting more coverage. It's more baffling than Fultz.
It's more bizarre than Fultz because we actually know Kawhi was cleared a month ago and yet here we are with him saying he's not ready to play. Pop called him out. His teammates (allegedly) called him out. This is starting to seem more and more like the Walton/Blazers break-up in 1979.
 

johnmd20

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It's more bizarre than Fultz because we actually know Kawhi was cleared a month ago and yet here we are with him saying he's not ready to play. Pop called him out. His teammates (allegedly) called him out. This is starting to seem more and more like the Walton/Blazers break-up in 1979.
Yeah, it's extremely weird. He's not some untested rookie, he's one of the best players in the game. And he's cleared to play. And he's literally not playing, creating a lot of dissension for the entire team. It really should be a humongous story and there is barely even a discussion about it on SoSH.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Charlotte is up on Memphis by 61 points right now. 133- 73 with two minutes to play.

Kemba has 46 points on 18 shots.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's more bizarre than Fultz because we actually know Kawhi was cleared a month ago and yet here we are with him saying he's not ready to play. Pop called him out. His teammates (allegedly) called him out. This is starting to seem more and more like the Walton/Blazers break-up in 1979.
Kawhi was cleared by the TEAM doctors who are pressured to get him out on the court. He went for a second opinion in New York and whoever these people are allegedly have NOT cleared him to play. I don't think it is that bizarre of a situation.....you have a player who doesn't feel right and a team who wants him out there. The same thing happened with someone else a couple years ago I can't recall who it was though.
 

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In a game of zero defense between the Lakers and Pelicans (71-70 at the half), old friend Isaiah has somehow managed to turn the ball over 5 times in 14 minutes. Back up the Brinks baby!
 

Deathofthebambino

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Charlotte is up on Memphis by 61 points right now. 133- 73 with two minutes to play.

Kemba has 46 points on 18 shots.
Here is what I want to know. Kemba took 18 shots and 14 of them were 3 pointers (he made 10 of them), but he still managed to take 10 free throws. I'll give my left arm if Jaylen or Tatum someday get that kind of respect from the refs.
 

Sportsbstn

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In a game of zero defense between the Lakers and Pelicans (71-70 at the half), old friend Isaiah has somehow managed to turn the ball over 5 times in 14 minutes. Back up the Brinks baby!
And Lonzo still hasn’t figured out he sucks at 3 pointers. Worst that can happen for him is he goes a few games making some. False confidence
 

HomeRunBaker

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He was a sniper in college. Hes on a bad team. Absolutely no downside to keep jack in em up at this stage of his career.
Ball is shooting them at just under 35% post-ASB up from 28% pre-ASB. His balance is improved on the shot too....he'll be fine.
 

tims4wins

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So we got two cherry picked samples. One is bigger than the other. All things equal the bigger one should mean more.
Actually he came out of the break shooting 21-42 and is now 7-44 since. So it’s actually a bigger sample of suck. He got hot for like 7 games. He hasn’t made multiple 3s in a game since March 9
 

Imbricus

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Ball with a delicious choke, badly missing a 3 with about 20 seconds left. His 3 pt. shot looks terrible.
 

Sportsbstn

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He was a sniper in college. Hes on a bad team. Absolutely no downside to keep jack in em up at this stage of his career.
Many of his 3 pointers in college had no defense on him. The NBA is a bit different, plus the distance is further back. They could have won tonight if he didn’t brick 12 of 13 3’s. In the NBA he is NOT a shooter.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, it's extremely weird. He's not some untested rookie, he's one of the best players in the game. And he's cleared to play. And he's literally not playing, creating a lot of dissension for the entire team. It really should be a humongous story and there is barely even a discussion about it on SoSH.
That's because for whatever reason we know even less about this than Fultz.

Is Leonard hurt? Did team Drs clear him to rush him back? Did someone on the Spurs diss one of his reps?

No one has clue, which is bizarre in this day and age.
 

slamminsammya

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Many of his 3 pointers in college had no defense on him. The NBA is a bit different, plus the distance is further back. They could have won tonight if he didn’t brick 12 of 13 3’s. In the NBA he is NOT a shooter.
"NBA rookie struggles, should stop trying."

Durant shot 28% from 3 as a rook. ;)
 

chilidawg

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Yeah, it's extremely weird. He's not some untested rookie, he's one of the best players in the game. And he's cleared to play. And he's literally not playing, creating a lot of dissension for the entire team. It really should be a humongous story and there is barely even a discussion about it on SoSH.
Definitely a missed opportunity for uninformed speculation. Gotta step it up.
 

moly99

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Durant shot 28% from 3 as a rook. ;)
It's worth pointing out that the Thunder née Sonics were deliberately tanking by playing Durant out of position at shooting guard and giving him too many shots, and ended up with Russell Westbrook for their (lack of) effort. Thank the basketball gods there are 5-6 teams this year that are even better at tanking than the Lakers.
 

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It's worth pointing out that the Thunder née Sonics were deliberately tanking by playing Durant out of position at shooting guard and giving him too many shots, and ended up with Russell Westbrook for their (lack of) effort. Thank the basketball gods there are 5-6 teams this year that are even better at tanking than the Lakers.
Meh, Durant is a 2/3 now and was a 2/3 then although there is much more smallball now......he's a wing who can play 4 to create matchup problems. That team didn't need to do anything special to tank. Durant got all those looks because the player with the 2nd most FGA/g and their 2nd leading scorer was ex-Celtic Chris Wilcox.
 
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LondonSox

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I think Ball will likely improve as per nearly ever rookie who struggles early (and yes why Tatum is crazy)
The danger is that the Lakers lose trust in him and try to rebuild his shot. Then who knows
 

Imbricus

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I know it's not exactly news to say Lonzo's 3 pt. shot looks like garbage. And, three years from now, I suppose he could shooting 40% from 3. But I saw him take a couple of 3's late in the game last night and they reminded me of that kid on the JV team who cocks the ball back on his shoulder and lets it fly and everyone crosses their fingers. On those two misses, he really missed -- not an unlucky bounce, or a Tatum miss. Because of that, I do wonder how much improvement can be hoped for.

When Durant shot 28% (actually looks like 29% with rounding) from 3 as a rookie, he was shooting a much lower volume (0.7 3's per game) than Ball (5.8). With Durant, I wonder if it was more small sample size from game to game that was to blame.

BTW, I realize Ball did shoot about 40% from 3 pt. range in college, so yes, there's that. To me, that's the bigger mystery.

Edit: added Ball's college % and "rounding"
 
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Imbricus

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Even the great ones can lay an egg: Harden 4-20 last night, and 0-8 from 3. No wonder Houston almost lost to Detroit (well, that and Drummond's rebounding).
 

tims4wins

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Key difference between Lonzo and KD: KD shot 87% from the FT line his rookie year. Lonzo isn't even at 47%. The guy can't shoot.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I know it's not exactly news to say Lonzo's 3 pt. shot looks like garbage. And, three years from now, I suppose he could shooting 40% from 3. But I saw him take a couple of 3's late in the game last night and they reminded me of that kid on the JV team who cocks the ball back on his shoulder and lets it fly and everyone crosses their fingers. On those two misses, he really missed -- not an unlucky bounce, or a Tatum miss. Because of that, I do wonder how much improvement can be hoped for.

When Durant shot 28% (actually looks like 29% with rounding) from 3 as a rookie, he was shooting a much lower volume (0.7 3's per game) than Ball (5.8). With Durant, I wonder if it was more small sample size from game to game that was to blame.

BTW, I realize Ball did shoot about 40% from 3 pt. range in college, so yes, there's that. To me, that's the bigger mystery.

Edit: added Ball's college % and "rounding"
As London noted above it really isn't that unordinary for a rookie to struggle with the increased defensive length and style of the NBA game which differs from anything they have ever experienced. I've repeated this ad nauseum but the greatest growth a young player typically has is from his rookie to 2nd season in the league. His teammate Brandon Ingram is a perfect example as a 41% 3-point shooter at Duke with range. He shot 28% from 3 as a rookie and the "I told you he couldn't shoot FT's in college" crew came out (even though 68% as a freshman isn't awful)......he's now allowed the game to slow down and is making them at 38% as well as improving his overall game as his body develops.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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As London noted above it really isn't that unordinary for a rookie to struggle with the increased defensive length and style of the NBA game which differs from anything they have ever experienced. I've repeated this ad nauseum but the greatest growth a young player typically has is from his rookie to 2nd season in the league. His teammate Brandon Ingram is a perfect example as a 41% 3-point shooter at Duke with range. He shot 28% from 3 as a rookie and the "I told you he couldn't shoot FT's in college" crew came out (even though 68% as a freshman isn't awful)......he's now allowed the game to slow down and is making them at 38% as well as improving his overall game as his body develops.
Getting into the weight room helps a lot. I'm sure college players find the pro 3P line to be a heave in their first year.

I wonder how much NBA players lift during the season. I'm sure it takes time to figure out a lifting regimen that allows them to keep up their strength while not affecting their play.
 

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Getting into the weight room helps a lot. I'm sure college players find the pro 3P line to be a heave in their first year.

I wonder how much NBA players lift during the season. I'm sure it takes time to figure out a lifting regimen that allows them to keep up their strength while not affecting their play.
Nearly all players have certain routines for preparing both physically and mentally. A rookie is at such a disadvantage as they are competing against opponents (and teammates for minutes) without the knowledge and understanding of what works for them while also factoring in the NBA travel schedule.

JJ Redick knows that he's having his roasted chicken, veggies, and coffee 2.5 hours before every game to best prepare for that night.....do rookies coming out of college understand the importance of proper nutrition or are they grabbing McDonald's at 2pm and a candy bar before the game? It's all a learning process and not only on the floor. Some figure it out and some don't......there is a reason Big Baby and Sullinger aren't in the NBA anymore while less talented bigs are still bouncing around receiving game checks.
 

tims4wins

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Nearly all players have certain routines for preparing both physically and mentally. A rookie is at such a disadvantage as they are competing against opponents (and teammates for minutes) without the knowledge and understanding of what works for them while also factoring in the NBA travel schedule. JJ Redick knows that he's having his roasted chicken, veggies, and coffee 2.5 hours before every game to best prepare for that night.....do rookies coming out of college understand the importance of proper nutrition or are they grabbing McDonald's at 2pm and a candy bar before the game? It's all a learning process and not only on the floor.
Does this really still happen?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Does this really still happen?
Of course it does we just don't hear about it because these guys are quickly out of the league if they don't get it. I edited my above post to include the Baby and Sully examples as just a couple. I'd say adapting to being a professional in all aspects of the game happen with nearly every player upon entering the league.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nutrition-in-the-nba-part-i-lessons-learned-in-la-help-howards-career/


http://coachgeorgeraveling.com/the-life-of-a-nba-rookie/
Edit:
For the first time in their lives, young players must deal with the fact that nutrition is now their responsibility. Meeting with a nutritionist and scheduling the delivery of prepared meals is very common among rookies. Many times it takes young players several years to really understand and practice good nutrition. Fast food habits are tough to break, and it takes great discipline to do so.

Most young players have bodies that are not prepared for the rigors of an NBA season. Some need more muscle, some need to lose body fat. Whatever the case may be, the strength coach is put in charge of beginning the transformation of a rookie’s body. Weight training sessions are typically 4 days a week. This is not college, and failure to perform now results in a fine.
 
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tims4wins

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I guess I would just expect that from the second these guys get drafted the team would do everything in its power to ensure they were eating properly. We are talking about investing tens if not hundreds of millions in the contracts. I wouldn't let a 19 year old try to figure that out.
 

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I guess I would just expect that from the second these guys get drafted the team would do everything in its power to ensure they were eating properly. We are talking about investing tens if not hundreds of millions in the contracts. I wouldn't let a 19 year old try to figure that out.
I'm sure they do all they can but the player still has a life outside of team activities and needs to discipline himself accordingly. This goes back to the scouting team putting the work in to gather information about the player prior to the draft. When we see guys fall for no specific reason there usually is behind the scenes stuff that we aren't privy to. To use the Redick example, the team isn't mandating that he eats a nutritious meal at 4:30 every day.....this is something Redick figured out on his own or with the advice of those around him. These habits take time to change.

I recall when Ainge drafted Gerald Green and he personally spent time being his father figure and mentor. The story goes something like......Ainge was teaching him how to watch film properly to understand footwork, angles, spacing, etc when suddenly he looked over and Green was asleep. Sometimes all you can do isn't enough....ultimately the responsibility falls on the player.
 

tims4wins

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That all makes sense.

Related anecdote, I remember seeing JJ his freshman year (my senior year) at Cosmic Cantina in Durham putting down a burrito at like 3am one time. His freshman and sophomore years he definitely carried extra weight. He really transformed his body after that and his all around game took off.
 

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LondonSox

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I think it takes time for kids to get the message, it's hard when you've been poor especially. Suddenly you can afford what you wanted but you have to say no.
I am sure the teams don't clamp down 100% day one, they have enough to ease into. Plus they can get away with bad diet etc at that age.
Think fultz and the Chick-fil-A.

Some kids will have had an education in this area or a very good college coach who bothered to teach these things. Or in a big time program that provided such things. But that's the minority

Back to lonzo it's always a big issue to me when the form LOOKS so bad that you know people are going to want to fix it. They'll leave him alone if he's good immediately but now what with lonzo. Leave it and watch him brick another season and everyone will kill the coaching.

Change it and he sucks and you risk his confidence (which is clearly VERY high still).

But it is a huge concern he is worse than Simmons at the ft line.... That's not good. It's been a running joke about Simmons for goodness sake.