Celtics vs 76ers, Round 2 Discussion

bankshot1

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God forbid he's honest and direct. Our basketball players don't just have to be great at their jobs and be good people, they also need to be politicians as well. Good grief.

If it's "been a real issue", can you point to any negatives on the team that it has caused? Because from my perspective it leaves the team more able to confront and do something about its mistakes and problems.
Good grief.

My post was about CJM

I can only give an opinion and can't prove a thing. The same can be said of your post. IMO CJM is still on a steep coaching learning curve through no fault of his own. And IMO here have been some slips on that steep slippery slope, several discussed in this thread over the course of the season. He's still learning which is a good thing, because IMO he has more to learn.

You may disagree, which is fine.
 

NomarsFool

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Tatum's 3P at ~4:15 put them up 84-83. The overall energy of that quarter felt like the whole season was slipping away, the crowd was going nuts - and that at least made it seem like we weren't dead yet.
Tatum's back to back 3P at ~3:35 put them 87-83 and I started to think "Maybe we could actually win?"
There was then the PHI FT, and Smart had a big bucket to go up 89-84.
Tatum's next 3P, was actually pretty big as well. That put them up 92-84 with under 2 minutes to play. The announcers even commented that it seemed like Philly stopped playing at that point. The 4th one, I think was almost garbage time level - although in a playoff game hard to call anything really "garbage time".

That was an absolute incredible sequence for Tatum, and as others pointed out, pretty much reversed an entire offseason of ridicule in a few short minutes. If the Celtics had lost, Tatum would have been labelled as a playoff choker (not saying that's correct - but let's face it, being named All NBA and putting up a gooseegg in the first half of a key playoff game is not a good look). I hope they really bring it on Sunday.
 

Pmoose82

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Re: Sunday game times. It is what it is, but why wouldn't they just have Boston/Philly play at 7:30 and LA/GS play at 10:30?
More people are going to be watching at 3:30pm than at 10:30pm. Lakers/Warriors game 7 would be a bigger draw, so that gets priority on Sunday if Warriors win tonight.
 

InstaFace

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IMO CJM is still on a steep coaching learning curve through no fault of his own. And IMO here have been some slips on that steep slippery slope, several discussed in this thread over the course of the season. He's still learning which is a good thing, because IMO he has more to learn.

You may disagree, which is fine.
No, I agree with all of that. I've complained about the timeouts usage here myself. I just took from your post that Smart being "honest and direct" was a problem. If you don't think it is, that's fine, but in that case your post was fairly unclear.

In my opinion, one asset the Celtics have is that all of them respond well to, and may even enjoy, being coached hard and getting tough love. Including the coach. And so this episode - among others this year that the Port Cellar has observed but not generally lingered on - suggests that they give CJM direct feedback, and are so accustomed to it and think it so typical and normal that it's not worth dancing around to the media in the wake of a crucial victory.
 

joe dokes

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In my opinion, one asset the Celtics have is that all of them respond well to, and may even enjoy, being coached hard and getting tough love. Including the coach. And so this episode - among others this year that the Port Cellar has observed but not generally lingered on - suggests that they give CJM direct feedback, and are so accustomed to it and think it so typical and normal that it's not worth dancing around to the media in the wake of a crucial victory.
I think the bolded and the conclusion are both spot-on.
 

Bleedred

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More people are going to be watching at 3:30pm than at 10:30pm. Lakers/Warriors game 7 would be a bigger draw, so that gets priority on Sunday if Warriors win tonight.
3:30 on Sunday is a killer. My wife is not a basketball fan, so my choices are: (i) watch the game and be in the doghouse at home, or (ii) or forego the game, do something with the Mrs. (we have a tee time at 2:00 p.m.) and be utterly distracted, and still be in the doghouse. Not ideal
 

jezza1918

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Tatum's 3P at ~4:15 put them up 84-83. The overall energy of that quarter felt like the whole season was slipping away, the crowd was going nuts - and that at least made it seem like we weren't dead yet.
Tatum's back to back 3P at ~3:35 put them 87-83 and I started to think "Maybe we could actually win?"
There was then the PHI FT, and Smart had a big bucket to go up 89-84.
Tatum's next 3P, was actually pretty big as well. That put them up 92-84 with under 2 minutes to play. The announcers even commented that it seemed like Philly stopped playing at that point. The 4th one, I think was almost garbage time level - although in a playoff game hard to call anything really "garbage time".

That was an absolute incredible sequence for Tatum, and as others pointed out, pretty much reversed an entire offseason of ridicule in a few short minutes. If the Celtics had lost, Tatum would have been labelled as a playoff choker (not saying that's correct - but let's face it, being named All NBA and putting up a gooseegg in the first half of a key playoff game is not a good look). I hope they really bring it on Sunday.
It's not that hard to envision a bizarro world where Tatum misses that 3 with 38 seconds left, Philly comes down in transition with a quick 3 to make it a 5 points lead with 31 seconds...someone tries to make a hero pass and gets picked, and an easy layup makes it a one possession game with :20 seconds or so left...The coffin lid was closing, but the last 3 nailed it shut.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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3:30 on Sunday is a killer. My wife is not a basketball fan, so my choices are: (i) watch the game and be in the doghouse at home, or (ii) or forego the game, do something with the Mrs. (we have a tee time at 2:00 p.m.) and be utterly distracted, and still be in the doghouse. Not ideal
Its a game seven. I'm embracing the doghouse lifestyle with enthusiasm.
 

InstaFace

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Tatum's 3P at ~4:15 put them up 84-83. The overall energy of that quarter felt like the whole season was slipping away, the crowd was going nuts - and that at least made it seem like we weren't dead yet.
Tatum's back to back 3P at ~3:35 put them 87-83 and I started to think "Maybe we could actually win?"
There was then the PHI FT, and Smart had a big bucket to go up 89-84.
Tatum's next 3P, was actually pretty big as well. That put them up 92-84 with under 2 minutes to play. The announcers even commented that it seemed like Philly stopped playing at that point. The 4th one, I think was almost garbage time level - although in a playoff game hard to call anything really "garbage time".

That was an absolute incredible sequence for Tatum, and as others pointed out, pretty much reversed an entire offseason of ridicule in a few short minutes. If the Celtics had lost, Tatum would have been labelled as a playoff choker (not saying that's correct - but let's face it, being named All NBA and putting up a gooseegg in the first half of a key playoff game is not a good look). I hope they really bring it on Sunday.
It just shows you the oddness of trying to ascribe narratives to this stuff. If Tatum had made 3 prior 3Ps at some point earlier in the game, and missed these first 3 in this sequence, then Maxey's 3 would have just cut it to 83-90, the Celtics would still be up 7, then 6, then 8. Not a blowout but still fairly comfortable for the closing minutes of a playoff game. Maybe the Sixers stop playing at that point regardless, but at that point Tatum would've still had a poor shooting game, and yet the Cs would be in position to win by double-digits-or-so in a game that had been "close at times, but which they had led mostly wire-to-wire". The narrative would be about the Celtics' first-half defense, Smart playing out of his mind, Brogdon shooting the lights out, and Tatum doing everything he could even on "an off night", as the team grinded out the minutes in the second half. If the Sixers had instead had a late run in those final few minutes and won the game and series, people might have said Tatum "Came up small", but nobody would've pointed to his final shooting line as being embarrassing for a player of his stature.

So, then, what's the difference between making a few early and missing late, vs making a few late and missing early? You can't just "Try harder" and miraculously make more of your shots. It's not like we can say he wasn't giving enough effort early last night, and then turned it on late. God knows he was defending and communicating and running and passing his ass off out there. No magic switch was flipped on his shots, they "just weren't going in", up until they did. There's like some fundamental ignorance with respect to statistics and probability and how randomness works that's at play here, and I think it kinda stinks.

edit: to be clear, I don't think shooting is entirely random. We know from analytics that certain types of shots go in at better rates than others, and part of offense is creating those higher-percentage opportunities. Most obviously, how open the shot is. But to my eyes, most of Tatum's shots were very good ones last night. Most notably that shot to end the 3rd quarter, wide open uncovered from the corner - he probably makes that 70%+ of the time. He had one or two missed layups. So you can do some things to affect your shooting percentage, such as catch-and-shoot in rhythm, or how open the shot is, or getting to "your spots" where practice has given you good touch from that particular range and angle. But once you adjust for those things, you've kinda done all you can - controlling for that, it IS kinda random rolls of the dice. And so drawing conclusions and painting narratives based on which rolls came up good and which didn't - rather than discussions on how you could've weighted your dice better (shot quality, passing, action to free things up, turnovers, players getting gassed) - just seems stupid to me. I guess that's why I post and read about basketball here, and not on Twitter.
 
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RedOctober3829

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That was the plan, per my friend who works for a team still involved. I haven’t heard back from him today.
My guess is that ABC is in for a game already(Warriors/LA) and if that ends tonight, they will pivot to Celtics/Sixers in the 3:30 slot as that would be the only game of the day. If Warriors/LA goes to Game 7, the Celtics would likely be on TNT at 8:00.
 

Red Averages

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My guess is that ABC is in for a game already(Warriors/LA) and if that ends tonight, they will pivot to Celtics/Sixers in the 3:30 slot as that would be the only game of the day. If Warriors/LA goes to Game 7, the Celtics would likely be on TNT at 8:00.
Great point.
 

Bunt4aTriple

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If it's 3:30, wife is taking the older daughter. If it's 8:00, I take her instead. But I can't, in good conscience, cheer for either GS or LA.
 

tims4wins

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If there is only one game tomorrow, wouldn't a 6 or 630 tip time be ideal? Or not, because of Mother's Day dinner on the east coast?
 

lexrageorge

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Marcus Smart's comments about the coaching would be a lot worse if they occurred after a loss. The fact that they came after a win tells me that Mazzulla himself would agree with the comments.
 

HomeRunBaker

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More people are going to be watching at 3:30pm than at 10:30pm. Lakers/Warriors game 7 would be a bigger draw, so that gets priority on Sunday if Warriors win tonight.
Correct. There would likely be a key network executive canned after the East Coast numbers come out for a Sun night 10:30p west coast game.
 

DourDoerr

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god how insanely big did that Derrick White 3 feel after the 6ers finally took their first lead w/ ~4 minutes left in the 3rd.
Agreed on this. A ton of time left obviously, but in the moment it was huge. The 6ers were on a run, C's players shoulders were slumping, the crowd was getting louder and White's hit was a relief - like a pressure valve just released.
 

HomeRunBaker

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My guess is that ABC is in for a game already(Warriors/LA) and if that ends tonight, they will pivot to Celtics/Sixers in the 3:30 slot as that would be the only game of the day. If Warriors/LA goes to Game 7, the Celtics would likely be on TNT at 8:00.
Very well done.
 

Shaky Walton

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OK, I fully admit that this is the Boston-centric fan in me talking, and that it's not rational....

But wow do I find Doc Rivers to be annoying. From his sideline gesticulations, to his incredulous faces almost any time a foul goes against the Sixers (though PJ Tucker has him beat and conjures up Derek Jeter at ANY called strike against him), to his post-game comments after losses which always seem to blame his players rather than accept any responsibility, I find him to be insufferable now.

And yes, I loved him during the Ubuntu year, and think he did an amazing job at getting those guys to play together. And I even have some friends (a married couple) who have dined with him and said how wonderful a person he is.

But NOW, during this series in particular, I want to throttle him.
 

Shaky Walton

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I don’t think any of the comments are really out of line lol, but a lot of people think she’s been pro Sixers for the series. The silence at the end was noticeable though, IMO.

View: https://twitter.com/andrewbogut/status/1656882521139974144?s=20
The ESPN promo line on its website yesterday had something like "Doris is REALLY impressed with Joel Embiid!"

Announcers always sound to fans like they are favoring the opponent. Mike Breen in particular annoys me for his enthusiastic calls against the Cs and I do wonder if the New Yorker in him plays a role.

As to Doris, I don't really know. I do know that I found both of them to be annoying enough to have muted the sound during the third quarter. And rode it that way until the last minute when it became clear the Cs were going to win.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I just looked up Mark Jones' bio. This mf'er is a Torontonian. His little brother does the Rap's radio play-by-play.

His obsession with trying to make Bang Bang Niang a thing is really something.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The ESPN promo line on its website yesterday had something like "Doris is REALLY impressed with Joel Embiid!"

Announcers always sound to fans like they are favoring the opponent. Mike Breen in particular annoys me for his enthusiastic calls against the Cs and I do wonder if the New Yorker in him plays a role.

As to Doris, I don't really know. I do know that I found both of them to be annoying enough to have muted the sound during the third quarter. And rode it that way until the last minute when it became clear the Cs were going to win.
Grande & Max the rest of the way for me. The lag (98.5 was a second or two faster than ESPN for G6) is barely perceptible and I am riding with people who love basketball and root for my team.

Its so much better than listening to Doris breathlessly discussing how heroic it was for multi-millionaire player X to get out of bed, eat a meal from their personal chef and go to the arena where an army of staffers get them ready to play. The dedication to their craft!!! All while Mark Jones is trying out new stolen taglines.
 

Jimbodandy

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Its a game seven. I'm embracing the doghouse lifestyle with enthusiasm.
Word.

I remember where I was for the 81 and 82 conference final game sevens against Philly and who I was watching the game with, and that shit was over 40 years ago. I'd rather that my wife were mad at me for a couple of days and enjoy that experience. Of course, one's current standings on the shit list factor into that.
 

OurF'ingCity

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The Mark Jones tagline stuff is really bad (pulls the clutch, etc.) I legitimately think he drafts a list of these before the game in the hopes that one will go viral and then he can use that as his calling card for the rest of his career.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I don’t think any of the comments are really out of line lol, but a lot of people think she’s been pro Sixers for the series. The silence at the end was noticeable though, IMO.

View: https://twitter.com/andrewbogut/status/1656882521139974144?s=20
I don't have any idea how I completely missed the fact that Doris went to Providence College before now. Literally no idea.

She grew up like 70 miles from Philly in Manasquan, NJ, so probably shouldn't be surprising that she's a Philly fan.
 

joe dokes

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Grande & Max the rest of the way for me. The lag (98.5 was a second or two faster than ESPN for G6) is barely perceptible and I am riding with people who love basketball and root for my team.
I did that as well. I used a phone app for 98.5 so I could pause it and sync it even closer.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't have any idea how I completely missed the fact that Doris went to Providence College before now. Literally no idea.

She grew up like 70 miles from Philly in Manasquan, NJ, so probably shouldn't be surprising that she's a Philly fan.
She used to play pickup with us at Alumni Gym on Tuesday's. Girls playing with boys at that level was unheard of back then.
 

Just a bit outside

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I did that as well. I used a phone app for 98.5 so I could pause it and sync it even closer.
I use League Pass and the radio is always ahead. I can just pause and get it synched up. So much better than listening to the national broadcast. I will listen to the other broadcast team before the national broadcast.
 

m0ckduck

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I almost never go in for the "national commentators are rooting for the other team" thing, but... last night's broadcast was downright weird. Doris and Mark were primping the "76ers advance!" narrative as long it remained vaguely viable into the 4th. Then, when the C's started to pull away, they seemed to have nothing whatsoever to say.
All while Mark Jones is trying out new stolen taglines.
More than other announcers, he leaves the impression that he's been practicing them in his hotel room in front of a mirror. "JAY-son TAT-um, setting off SMOKE DETECTORS..."
 

joe dokes

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She used to play pickup with us at Alumni Gym on Tuesday's. Girls playing with boys at that level was unheard of back then.
Her basketball chops have been well-chronicled and are undeniable. My only real gripe is that she (and many of her colleagues) gets caught up in the "STORYLINE" (a word, along with "fanbase" that should be stricken from the world) too much, often at the expense of the game going on in front of her.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Her basketball chops have been well-chronicled and are undeniable. My only real gripe is that she (and many of her colleagues) gets caught up in the "STORYLINE" (a word, along with "fanbase" that should be stricken from the world) too much, often at the expense of the game going on in front of her.
Agreed.

Doris may actually be one of the more knowledgeable commentators out there but whether its her own choice or that of her employer, she seems to have pivoted towards narratives rather than dissecting the action on the court.

Its a shame because early in her career getting her on a broadcast was awesome. Now each game is being played by people who struggled through so much adversity like spending many weekends at elite AAU tourneys, fending off potential agents and handlers as star athletes in high school and living in a bubble in college. Such persistence! She also ventures into the Gammons Special Zone on the regular.

She is so much better than that.
 

Swedgin

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Marcus Smart's extremely candid comments about Joe's mistakes and learning were interesting.



https://theathletic.com/4512743/2023/05/12/celtics-marcus-smart-force-game-7-sixers/

Not that I think Marcus was wrong. He was saying what we all see and know. But publicly saying that the criticism was warranted strikes me as unusual.

The Boston Globe chose to ignore it, entirely.
They talked about this quote on the Hoop Collective pod, and provided some useful context. According to Bontemps and others on the Cetlics' beat "rightfully so" is a verbal tic for Marcus Smart. He uses it every few sentences the way some people would say "you know." I have not listened to enough Smart press avails to back that up, but if accurate that lessens the sting of what Smart said substantially. Though the larger message that Jaylen, Jayson and Smart were clearly in favor of going back to the two bigs line up.
 

Zososoxfan

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The Mark Jones tagline stuff is really bad (pulls the clutch, etc.) I legitimately think he drafts a list of these before the game in the hopes that one will go viral and then he can use that as his calling card for the rest of his career.
He forced one so bad in the 4th yesterday. Something along the lines of 'Tatum doesn't answer the phone, but he's always on time'. The first part doesn't make any sense, STFU man.
 

Jimbodandy

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Agreed.

Doris may actually be one of the more knowledgeable commentators out there but whether its her own choice or that of her employer, she seems to have pivoted towards narratives rather than dissecting the action on the court.

Its a shame because early in her career getting her on a broadcast was awesome. Now each game is being played by people who struggled through so much adversity like spending many weekends at elite AAU tourneys, fending off potential agents and handlers as star athletes in high school and living in a bubble in college. Such persistence! She also ventures into the Gammons Special Zone on the regular.

She is so much better than that.
This is a fair criticism. She has lost a few MPH on her fastball. That said, the list of current commentators that she is better than is long. She's still well on the right side of the bell curve.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Her basketball chops have been well-chronicled and are undeniable. My only real gripe is that she (and many of her colleagues) gets caught up in the "STORYLINE" (a word, along with "fanbase" that should be stricken from the world) too much, often at the expense of the game going on in front of her.
I think she's been, errr, "coached up" to shy away from Xs and Ox and instead emphasize narratives. I don't have anything to back it up but I suspect that's how broadcasters and trained to talk about sports.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He forced one so bad in the 4th yesterday. Something along the lines of 'Tatum doesn't answer the phone, but he's always on time'. The first part doesn't make any sense, STFU man.
That's an old line used by, I believe, Stuart Scott on ESPN. It didn't come across nearly as well as when Scott used it.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is a fair criticism. She has lost a few MPH on her fastball. That said, the list of current commentators that she is better than is long. She's still well on the right side of the bell curve.
Yeah I don't get the Burke criticism as a whole. She made many great points early on about the players getting a feel for how the game was going to be officiated based on calls that occurred on each end of the floor. She doesn't always make her point well and is criticized for it, and rightfully so, but I also prefer her over the large majority.
 

BigJimEd

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My wife who watches very little basketball but watches other sports, watched the game last night. At one point she asks, who is this lady and does she every stop talking. Never heard wife complain about an announcer before but Doris does just go on and on about some narrative that has very little if anything to do with the play going on. Stick her in the studio because she should not be doing games.