Its not exciting but depending on their other moves it may be a cheap way to up the talent level on the roster. I think many fans would prefer Holiday to any of the kids offensively in the playoffs.
16 Days in January—Determining Trade Deadline Activity
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Barring an injury, none of the kids (other than Grant) are playing in the playoffs. Romeo and Pritchard didn’t see a minute tonight until up 40 points in the 4th.
I think that is DeJesus’ point. Holiday would have a chance to crack the playoff rotation while guys like Nesmith, Langford, etc. wouldn’t. But a move like that would be kind of meh for me but I understand why some may be interested in an incremental improvement.
But you don’t need a 9 or 10 man rotation in the playoffs. Holiday isn’t taking minutes from Tatum or Brown or Smart. He’s taking minutes from Richardson, which I completely get would be a different skill set and might help in certain situations, it’s not really an overall upgrade.
I think about our closing 5 in a tight game. It probably doesn’t have Horford out there. So, the question for me is, can we find a meaningful upgrade over Grant or Richardson for that last spot?
BSF is spot on. And my assumption is that there are bodies outgoing as well (save Wyc money!). I am no roster building expert but the good teams aren't just eight or nine players deep even if that's all they use in some games
The thing about Holiday is that he is a league average shooter but he would instantly become one of the Celtics better scorers. He presumably costs next to nothing too so even if he is a short timer, its not a big deal.
Again, not trying to sell anyone on Holiday as a difference maker - he is not - but absent playing Sacramento every night, they need more scoring from the bench. Holiday is a discount version of that type of player. He's effectively a pair of gas station sunglasses.
The thing about Holiday is that he is a league average shooter but he would instantly become one of the Celtics better scorers. He presumably costs next to nothing too so even if he is a short timer, its not a big deal.
Again, not trying to sell anyone on Holiday as a difference maker - he is not - but absent playing Sacramento every night, they need more scoring from the bench. Holiday is a discount version of that type of player. He's effectively a pair of gas station sunglasses.
I’d guess Nesmith is 100% certain to be heading to Indiana in this scenario. If Ime is now burying Romeo, a guy who plays his style defensively, there doesn’t appear to be much hope for Nesmith here even if he did pick it up on the offensive end.
Yup. If a Holiday deal happens, Nesmith and/or Langford are goners. And it would be a reasonable price. We can’t even find minutes for one of them so makes sense to deal for a more seasoned vet, if Brad wants to be a buyer.
Moved this here since my original post was supposed to be in this thread and I forgot which tab I was in.
Yeah Russ is a weird fit. On the talent side... of course you want him.
On the flip side... he wants to start and I don't think that he's better than Smart anymore. Also, if he's jacking bad shots with LeBron on his team, you can bet he's not deferring to Tatum.
The argument for... he's a very good passer when he wants, he's an explosive athlete, he really helps the rebounding issues in the backcourt.
I think the best case for Russ is... if he's pissed off about getting salary dumped then bought out, he might give you a nice half season run of his best most disciplined play, and that could elevate this team. Russ locked in on defense, focused on proving people wrong by just dunking on guys and showing he CAN be a guy who gets others shots is the 3rd best player on this team (honestly... maybe 2nd?). The issue is he hasn't been that guy, his D is sloppy now, and he thinks he should be getting shots up.
Nesmith would kill to be Holiday of the last three years.
He's due a little more than Schroder money, but signed for longer. Arguably a better fit than Richardson, since he can not only make threes, but shoot them on volume. One of those guys who figured it out late: made a huge leap in efficiency at age 30 and hasn't really looked back.
Doesn't solve the Celtics issues with playmaking. I'm not very savvy about these sort of things, but would sending Schroder off with a second get it done?
Not really sure the Celtics should or would want to do that, given concerns about (1) getting under the cap and (2) issues with playmaking, last couple games nonwithstanding, and (3) the fact that Schroder is one of the only guys on the roster not named Brown or Tatum who can get layups with any sort of consistency.
He's due a little more than Schroder money, but signed for longer. Arguably a better fit than Richardson, since he can not only make threes, but shoot them on volume. One of those guys who figured it out late: made a huge leap in efficiency at age 30 and hasn't really looked back.
Doesn't solve the Celtics issues with playmaking. I'm not very savvy about these sort of things, but would sending Schroder off with a second get it done?
Not really sure the Celtics should or would want to do that, given concerns about (1) getting under the cap and (2) issues with playmaking, last couple games nonwithstanding, and (3) the fact that Schroder is one of the only guys on the roster not named Brown or Tatum who can get layups with any sort of consistency.
Assuming no injuries, and even assuming the Cs got rid of DS, I wouldn't. The Cs aren't going to start RWB over Smart, and RWB doesn't fit into the identity that POBOBS and CIU are trying to build and frankly, the Cs already have a fascimile thereof in DS and if they are getting rid of him why would they want to bring RWB in?
Over the course of a season, a team made up of ten 50th percentile talents might do as well as a team with five 40th percentile talents and five 60th percentile talents. But, I think in the playoffs, when rotations shrink and then 9-10 guys on the roster might see 0-3 minutes a game - I think the team with the better top 5 talent wins more than the deep team.
One of the big criticisms of last year's team was that there was too much parity in guys 6-10 on the roster, instead of having players 6,7,8 who were a bit better. This year's team with JRich, an improved Grant, and Schroder I think improved last year's problem.
I'd most like to see them find a way to replace Horford in the starting lineup with a 4 who is a better floor spacer. Beyond that, if there was a way to swap Marcus Smart for a PG who was a better floor general and shooter - that'd be a better fit for the team, but I don't think that's too likely (or who even exists that would fit that profile).
I don't know much about Holiday
Note that his 3P% has been okay (.339 to .394 to .368 to .375), he's shooting them at the lowest attempt rate of his career this year - 2.5 apg to 3.3 to 2.8 to 1.6 this year.
Holiday doesn't appear to move the needle and I'd rather figure out what AN can contribute with those minutes.
edit: wrong Holiday
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In last year's finals we saw Phoenix get killed inside when Ayton got in foul trouble, mostly in games 6/7 iirc. They addressed that need in the offseason with McGee and even Biyombo as deep depth. That was certainly one instance where depth mattered.
fungible 5 depth is the cheapest, easiest thing to acquire. There is zero reason to be short those bodies.
Speaking of BIG tall stiffs Old Friend Tristan Thompson is fitting in well with the Kings, think he had his jammies on while he kicked back on the bench.
Was it only a year ago when folks were fine with Brad giving him minutes over TimeLord? credit to PBS on unloading that carcass
I believe you're looking at Aaron Holiday's numbers. Pretty sure we're talking about Justin, whose a much better shooter and much more experienced.
Holiday is funny in that he grades out most places as someone who was terrible, then quickly rose to have a good year, and then settled in the last 3-4 as basically a neutral player, like a 0.0 DARKO, and floating around 0 in RAPTOR too
I'm far from a Westbrook fan, but he does have the ability to distribute the ball. He's a bricklayer, and we shouldn't be that interested. But if Schroder passed as well as Westbrook, he'd be an asset.
The reasons you'd think about Westbrook are threefold:
1. He competes hard, and that is helpful for this roster imo
2. He would immediately become the best passer on the team
3. He would push the pace, which would be helpful to them
The downsides are pretty significant: he thinks he is a leader/alpha and he isn't---at least, he is a good stats/bad team alpha only; he cannot shoot; he demands the ball a lot; he doesn't really defend reliably; he could fall off a cliff at some point and quickly become a distraction.
I wouldn't do it, but it's not insane to consider. If you got him, you'd want his half-court role to be some mix of penetration and what he did in Houston---effectively as the 'center' on offense with Tatum/Brown outside.
1. He competes hard, and that is helpful for this roster imo
2. He would immediately become the best passer on the team
3. He would push the pace, which would be helpful to them
The downsides are pretty significant: he thinks he is a leader/alpha and he isn't---at least, he is a good stats/bad team alpha only; he cannot shoot; he demands the ball a lot; he doesn't really defend reliably; he could fall off a cliff at some point and quickly become a distraction.
I wouldn't do it, but it's not insane to consider. If you got him, you'd want his half-court role to be some mix of penetration and what he did in Houston---effectively as the 'center' on offense with Tatum/Brown outside.
Yeah that's my feeling on RW. I wouldn't want him long term, but... short term? If you can get a focused burst from him he immediately makes you a much higher ceiling team, the question is, does he have the self-awareness to react to being essentially cut by playing a focused game, or does he double down on bad habits
I don't think this is the case at all. Richardson would be the one to go I think. Would have to be a 3 team most likely. BOS needs to shed salary to stay under the tax. No chance they pay the tax for Holiday
I would guess whether direct or 3 team, the Celtics would send out Schroder and maybe Nesmith or Romeo, or a pick and someone eats at least 1, probably 2 of the Bruno/Bol/Dozier trio. IND and BOS both have a bunch of decent sized Trade exceptions so salary match isn't a major issue. Holiday would slot into either of the Juancho or Thompson exceptions. IND has a 7.3M exception from McDermott and one just under 4M from A. Holiday trade, plus a 2.3M from somewhere. So they could take basically anyone back and create a $6M TE for Holiday.
I guess I don’t really see the point of exchanging Richardson for Holiday since they can probably get under the tax without trading Richardson. We’ll find out soon enough.
I don't see much point either. But I most assuredly don't see the point in trading Nesmith or Langford for Holiday. Nevermind trading one of them and paying the tax.
It would likely be a combo move, Schroder plus a young guy gets you under the tax even with Holiday coming back and maybe a min guy added.
I don't love it, but basically it would be a decision that you'd rather save your picks than keep both young guys.
Finally fully awake after an all-nighter of Medvedev and I wake to actual discussions about acquiring Westbrook? Going back to sleep and trying this all over again.
What’s deal with Tyus Jones? Like Brunson he’s going to be moving on…..why not us?
What’s deal with Tyus Jones? Like Brunson he’s going to be moving on…..why not us?
Now that international Smart day has come and gone, there must not have been any deal in place.
On a non-Celtics front, what about a Kyrie for Simmons swap? Both players have such high upside and downside and non-basketball related issues, it sort of seems like a match made in heaven.
On a non-Celtics front, what about a Kyrie for Simmons swap? Both players have such high upside and downside and non-basketball related issues, it sort of seems like a match made in heaven.
KD says no.
I think you almost certainly have to at least think hard about it. Westbrook is still a good player, all players have flaws, but Russ' look a lot better at the minimum than 40M.
Brunson is not moving on if DAL can help it, and he's the starter on the 5 seed in the West.
Tyus Jones is playing 21 minutes a night for the 3 seed, they aren't moving him.
People really need to look at roles.... teams who are well in the playoffs aren't trading away top 6 rotation guys unless it's for a clear upgrade. So unless Smart or TL is on the table, none of these guys are available to us.
Like I said, I know so little about him I got the wrong Holiday! Thanks for pointing it out.
View: https://twitter.com/HoopAnalysisNet/status/1486383194647797765
So apparently the ask for Holiday is a pair of 2nds.
Decent case for a 3 way deal there for BOS. Send out Schroder and some trash from the Bruno/Dozier/Bol pile, get back Holiday, whoever gets Schroder pays the pair of 2nds.
Not sure I do it, but a nice way to get under the tax and bring in a shooter with more long term value.
So apparently the ask for Holiday is a pair of 2nds.
Decent case for a 3 way deal there for BOS. Send out Schroder and some trash from the Bruno/Dozier/Bol pile, get back Holiday, whoever gets Schroder pays the pair of 2nds.
Not sure I do it, but a nice way to get under the tax and bring in a shooter with more long term value.
Yeah, that sounds about right all the way around. And based on the posts thus far, it really sounds like Wyc may be one of the few happy with Brad's Holiday shopping.
I will show myself out.
I will show myself out.
Basically this deal. Pacers eat a year for Frankie Smokes for a pair of 2nds and save money this year, DAL adds money and moves picks for Schroder, Celtics get 2 years of Holiday and under the tax
Both Brunson and Jones are FA this summer and will be getting paid. Neither of their teams cannot afford to sign them under their current salary/roster structure so swapping them out for a veteran under contract beyond this year is certainly an option.
KD said no before the NY mandate and Kyrie’s stance on vaccination. Things have changed ALOT since he said no.
I agree, Brunson is someone Dallas would like to keep but may not be able to. I'd expect he's at least semi available, though with Hardaway down they likely need shooting back at this point
And while he hasn't said anything publicly, it seems like Harden has some feelings on the matter:
View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2952746-sources-explain-why-james-harden-would-welcome-new-scenery-next-season
When has Mark Cuban ever decided to get rid of a good player to save money? Brunson’s getting paid and paid by Dallas.
Cuban went from being an annual taxpayer to staying below the threshold for the last 7-8 years or so. This summer Doncic’s extension kicks in and they are right up against the tax at $140m with most committed to six players. He’d have to do a ton of creative salary gymnastics to fit Brunson under that number.
Last summer? They got off Richardson for financial reasons---granted, he wasn't good in Dallas but he was good both before and after that. I agree it is possible Cuban just writes a big check, but as HRB notes they have real cap issues and so it's not in my mind a certainty they just pay Brunson---who himself is not a sure thing going forward.
There was a clear chance in Cuban’s financial approach two CBA’s ago and there is no indication that he’ll be a taxpayer under the current rules without at least being a top contender which of course the Mavs aren’t. It’s possible he could move some contracts around but as I said it would take some gymnastics to do so and sign Brunson.
Or on draft night package Dallas’s 1st round pick with a player and dump them into OKC’s cap space in exchange for Phoenix’s #1 or an OKC #2. It’s not actually that hard to retain good players.
Still likely wouldn't keep them out of the tax, to HRB's point---you could dump Powell or someone like that as you suggest but Brunson won't come cheap. We all know there are ways to move off salary, but Cuban's willingness to write a big check for THIS team is what we don't know.
It would be hilariously appropriate for the Demon Kyzuzu to do to Brooklyn what he did to Boston. Doubly appropriate if Harden decided that teaming up with Tatum and Brown was his best shot at winning.
That’s my point, Richardson was pretty bad in Dallas and even the good version of Josh Richardson is a fungible depth player. Brunson’s better than that.
I know Brunson wants 4/80, but he’s not getting it. Look at the teams with cap space next summer and look at their lineups. Brunson’s going to get sub-Marcus money.
Possible---but not certain to me. Knicks would be a great fit, but would need to get off a bunch of money to get there. Pistons could use him in a similar role to Dallas and have the space. Other teams (like the Celtics) probably won't get there but could via sign and trade or getting off money. All I'm saying is there's some risk there for Dallas in keeping him, and with the uncertainty Cuban will write the check I don't think we should have absolute confidence he'll be back no matter what. And once you acknowledge that uncertainty, you look at what you could get for him.
If I were betting, they keep him. But as with many of these questions, I see more factors and uncertainty here.
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Look at one name…..Knicks. The same team who have been tied to going after him aggressive over the past 10 days prior to the deadline via trade. Brunson is a nice player but no great shakes……but he’s still going to be among the top UFA this summer.
The reason the Knicks have been so aggressive in trying to trade for him is that it’s their only practical path to acquiring him. Unless he’s willing to go there for MLE money. The Knicks are already around $9 million over next year’s cap. I guess they could send out Randle for draft picks in order to create space for Brunson, but I’m just not seeing anything shy of a sign & trade that gets them there. And Dallas does a lot better under that scenario than they do trading away Brunson’s minimum deal for a similar baby salary.
I get their contracts, but I disagree with your conclusions for a number of reasons.
First, teams don't blow up the best team they've had in a long while because it might cost in the offseason, they usually ride it out see how far it takes them, then either sign the guy in the summer (and make moves to clear $ if need be) or try to S&T him.
Second, I wouldn't be sure about not being able to sign them. MEM has plenty of room next year, it's a couple years down the road that are an issue, but teams often make the signing because you can always trade someone in the next 12 months after that. DAL is a trickier one, but the word is that Cuban will pay tax for a winner and their plan is to sign one of Finney-Smith or Brunson.
Now, do I think those teams won't trade those guys for anything... no of course not. For example word is Brunson is being dangled in a Grant trade to DET. What I don't think either of those teams will do is trade for a downgrade. So for the Celtics, that means it's pretty tough. Neither of those teams wants one of our young guys for their guy, Schroder is both worse and has a worse contract issue, neither team is trading one of those guys for Richardson. So yes, if we had a good guard signed to like 2/20 or 2/18 on the roster they'd be interested, maybe, but as is.... what do we have to offer?
Sacramento has two good, young point guards in Halliburton and Fox. Do they make one of them available?