On what planet is the difference between Chris Sale and Eduardo Rodriguez worth Yoan Moncada? Especially when it would push either Porcello or Pomeranz out of the playoff rotation?
Not sure that gets it done. Swihart too?No, I'd guess they'd like Edro along with Moncada.
And?Any potential talks will go nowhere when Chicago demands Bogaerts and/or Betts, which is within their rights when Sale is the guy in question.
Well sure, they have a right to ask for anyone and everyone. But if they are truly looking for a rebuild, I'm not sure they're going to get a better package from anyone than one centered around Moncada.Any potential talks will go nowhere when Chicago demands Bogaerts and/or Betts, which is within their rights when Sale is the guy in question.
I don't know if I'm quite willing to say there is no team that would be favored over the Sox, but I think it's close enough that I am more or less unwilling to trade Benintendi or Moncada for anything. I mean, sure, you can come up with something I'd be willing to trade either or both of them for, but those aren't the trades that happen in reality.FWIW Cameron's annual trade value series has Moncada and Jose Quintana's ranked at 26th and 25th highest, so you would think it would be a good chunk more than Moncada to get Sale (Bradley as well maybe)? This is not the kind of market I want to be trying to buy Sale in with such a top heavy farm system. So, no thanks.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2016-trade-value-21-to-30/
I'd rather take my chances with the wide open AL division, and let another team empty their tank. There really isn't a team I'd say the Sox have a less than even chance at beating.
Sale has lost a lot of his strikeouts this year. I'd want to be confident I knew why before sending Moncada+ to Chicago.I am in the camp if it doesnt cost anyone that is playing right now ie any of the three Bs I would open up the prospects for Sale. If the Sox landed him with their offense and there rotation with him they would have to instantly be the favorites to go the World Series from the AL. You can say that bout the Rangers if they got him or the the Astros if the ys got him this guy is a true difference maker and those types dont come on the market very often.
Just to round out the information here with relevant Sox of various colors, and their previous rank in parentheses:FWIW Cameron's annual trade value series has Moncada and Jose Quintana's ranked at 26th and 25th highest, so you would think it would be a good chunk more than Moncada to get Sale (Bradley as well maybe)? This is not the kind of market I want to be trying to buy Sale in with such a top heavy farm system. So, no thanks.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2016-trade-value-21-to-30/
I'd rather take my chances with the wide open AL division, and let another team empty their tank. There really isn't a team I'd say the Sox have a less than even chance at beating.
I wouldn't either. I should have said there wasn't a team I wouldn't roll the dice against. I'm not sure if they'd be favored vs the Cubs or possibly Nats or O's. Though it's pretty damn close after the trades they've made.I don't know if I'm quite willing to say there is no team that would be favored over the Sox, but I think it's close enough that I am more or less unwilling to trade Benintendi or Moncada for anything. I mean, sure, you can come up with something I'd be willing to trade either or both of them for, but those aren't the trades that happen in reality.
His fastball is slower, but his changeup is the same speed. He's induced startlingly fewer whiffs on the latter—~13%, compared to 20% historically.Sale has lost a lot of his strikeouts this year. I'd want to be confident I knew why before sending Moncada+ to Chicago.
Yeah, it would be like facing Scherzer, Verlander, and Sanchez.I would be scared to death if Texas or Houston got Sale I cant even imagine think about a rotation for Texas of Sale, Darvish, and Hamels in a playoff series scary.
Maybe. But the Marlins are trending upward and are in the thick of the WC race. The White Sox sort of are what they are.That they are listening doesn't mean they want to deal. I'm guessing this is like the Marlins listening on Fernandez. Go ahead and blow me away. I'm listening...
Except what the White Sox are includes being the best team in the AL, for a full calendar month.Maybe. But the Marlins are trending upward and are in the thick of the WC race. The White Sox sort of are what they are.
Sadly I think some other team like the Rangers or the Astros maybe the Dodgers will beat that offer so no I don't suppose that would get it done. I would do that in a heartbeat though.Would Shaw, E. Rodriguez, Devers, Swihart and Kopech make them think? I would do it in a heartbeat which probably answers my own question.
Yeah, their one good month happened to come at the beginning of the year. What they are is, maybe a .500 team.Except what the White Sox are includes being the best team in the AL, for a full calendar month.
Considering their pitching, it also wouldn't be ridiculous for them to hold onto their two best starters and build the offense around Eaton, Frazier, and Abreu with lesser trades and free agency.Yeah, their one good month happened to come at the beginning of the year. What they are is, maybe a .500 team.
The White Sox haven't been good in a long time. What they're doing doesn't seem to be working. It wouldn't be ridiculous for them to try a reboot.
Hey we're all talking about Chicago selling because their GM said they're probably selling. So.Considering their pitching, it also wouldn't be ridiculous for them to hold onto their two best starters and build the offense around Eaton, Frazier, and Abreu with lesser trades and free agency.
Betts alone is at least as valuable as Sale. They don't have to add stuff to *maybe* get him.No, the GM said they're fielding calls, not that they're sell-now.
Blow 'em away with Mookie + EdRo + Barnes.
Then maybe you'll get Sale.
They do if Chicago is waiting for someone to blow them away and is content to keep Sale and build around him if they don't get offered an overpay. If they asked Texas for Profar and Gallo, then the Sox are already at something like Bradley and either Moncada or Benintendi in a similar request. They aren' getting Sale for just prospects without actually emptying the farm. The other option is including one of the B's.Betts alone is at least as valuable as Sale. They don't have to add stuff to *maybe* get him.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/17121892/chicago-white-sox-open-rebuild-not-interested-rentalsHahn acknowledged the White Sox were "mired in mediocrity" with a 46-48 record heading into Thursday night's game against the Detroit Tigers. Chicago had dropped six of seven and were seven games out of the second wild card -- and 10 behind American League Central leader Cleveland.
With the Aug. 1 non-waiver trade deadline approaching, Hahn said the White Sox have "to stay open-minded." But they are ruling out adding short-term rental players who could only help the team this year.
"We're not where we want to be," Hahn said. "We've spent a fair amount of time focusing on the here-now for the last few years, and it hasn't paid off as handsomely as we hoped. So we have to stay open-minded."
They'll be waiting a long time if they expect a player who is as good as Sale right now, with more years of team control, and additional prospects as well.They do if Chicago is waiting for someone to blow them away and is content to keep Sale and build around him if they don't get offered an overpay. If they asked Texas for Profar and Gallo, then the Sox are already at something like Bradley and either Moncada or Benintendi in a similar request. They aren' getting Sale for just prospects without actually emptying the farm. The other option is including one of the B's.
Quintana might be a more realistic target, but that price is still going to hurt. You can probably get away without including Moncada or any of the major league B's, but you're probably still looking at something like Swihart, Benintendi and Kopech because, again, they don't HAVE to deal.
Exactly. The question is whether they want to be blown away, or really go all-in on a rebuild. If the former, we probably don't match up. If the latter, something could work, but it will really sting. Obviously entertaining offers that demand Betts, Bogaerts or even Bradley would be a bit absurd, as the idea for a team acquiring Sale would be to bolster their contention this season, and then you comfortably move on.They'll be waiting a long time if they expect a player who is as good as Sale right now, with more years of team control, and additional prospects as well.
They have Sale under control for 3 more years and Quintana for 4. They have plenty of time to put a contender together around those two and have zero reason to feel like they have to make a deal now. This is like when people were convinced Stanton was going to be dealt because he was into his arb years. The White Sox are in complete control here and have no reason to accept fair value for either pitcher. With the ridiculous cost of starting pitching in the market right now, it would be a fireable offense to deal Sale for equal value.They'll be waiting a long time if they expect a player who is as good as Sale right now, with more years of team control, and additional prospects as well.
Yeah, make the pale hose an offer they can't refuse for Sale or Quintana. Otherwise, no sense in dealing them, unless they think an injury is imminent.They have Sale under control for 3 more years and Quintana for 4. They have plenty of time to put a contender together around those two and have zero reason to feel like they have to make a deal now. This is like when people were convinced Stanton was going to be dealt because he was into his arb years. The White Sox are in complete control here and have no reason to accept fair value for either pitcher. With the ridiculous cost of starting pitching in the market right now, it would be a fireable offense to deal Sale for equal value.
Deal Robertson, Frazier, Melky and Lawrie, ride a gutted roster to a top 3 pick and aim for an advanced bat you can push through the system quickly like Bregman or Bryant and you could easily have an exciting team on the field in 2018 with a 2 year window before Sale can hit free agency.
An exciting team maybe, but not a contending team. If they gut their roster and get a top 3 pick, the chances of them being a contender during Sale's tenure aren't good.They have Sale under control for 3 more years and Quintana for 4. They have plenty of time to put a contender together around those two and have zero reason to feel like they have to make a deal now. This is like when people were convinced Stanton was going to be dealt because he was into his arb years. The White Sox are in complete control here and have no reason to accept fair value for either pitcher. With the ridiculous cost of starting pitching in the market right now, it would be a fireable offense to deal Sale for equal value.
Deal Robertson, Frazier, Melky and Lawrie, ride a gutted roster to a top 3 pick and aim for an advanced bat you can push through the system quickly like Bregman or Bryant and you could easily have an exciting team on the field in 2018 with a 2 year window before Sale can hit free agency.
The White Sox are the ones who let it leak they are fielding offers, we didn't just start taking about it out of thin air. And if they are indeed serious about trading him, they know it won't be a lateral move, it will be trading today for tomorrow.They have Sale under control for 3 more years and Quintana for 4. They have plenty of time to put a contender together around those two and have zero reason to feel like they have to make a deal now. This is like when people were convinced Stanton was going to be dealt because he was into his arb years. The White Sox are in complete control here and have no reason to accept fair value for either pitcher. With the ridiculous cost of starting pitching in the market right now, it would be a fireable offense to deal Sale for equal value.
Deal Robertson, Frazier, Melky and Lawrie, ride a gutted roster to a top 3 pick and aim for an advanced bat you can push through the system quickly like Bregman or Bryant and you could easily have an exciting team on the field in 2018 with a 2 year window before Sale can hit free agency.
Of course they "leaked it." Why wouldn't they admit they're open to talking about anyone? I've still yet to see a single compelling argument for why they should move Sale or Quintana for equal value. Both players are under a solid amount of control and neither is expensive. Those are assets you build around and don't move unless you are overwhelmed. The White Sox are happy to be overwhelmed, which is why they floated to the media that they're not buyers and are willing to talk about everyone on their roster. That doesn't mean they intend to move either of their best pitchers.The White Sox are the ones who let it leak they are fielding offers, we didn't just start taking about it out of thin air. And if they are indeed serious about trading him, they know it won't be a lateral move, it will be trading today for tomorrow.
You think Sale and Quintana have been part of the problem?Haven't they been trying to build around Sale and Quintana since around 2012? It hasn't worked at all. They're not under any kind of gun to get rid of either of them so yes, any trade would mean the acquiring team would absolutely have to give up a bunch. But they're not leaking their being open to "anybody" being traded for no reason, and they'd have to know going into it that asking Boston for Betts or Bogaerts would make no sense. If that's their view of "sensible" then obviously you just move on. Assuming for a moment they aren't...
It is an extraordinary long shot to be sure, but answering with "well they could also keep Sale and Quintana and build around them" is sort of "no shit" territory and belies what it appears they're considering doing. Hence this discussion.
Sale has been pitching with his offspeed stuff this year to try to go deeper into games and deeper into the season. Don't read too much into the lower Ks.Sale has lost a lot of his strikeouts this year. I'd want to be confident I knew why before sending Moncada+ to Chicago.
Yeah, I know. But unless you think they are part of the problem, the fact that they haven't built a contender around them is not a valid reason to feel the need to move them right now. This is Stanton redux. The Marlins weren't under any real pressure to trade him when his name became an obsession here a few years back. They took phone calls on him and were happy to be blown away, but never were. He's still in Miami. Same with Fernandez. They weren't under any pressure to deal him right away and were happy to talk to teams and wait for an overpay. They reportedly asked for a preposterous return because they weren't really interested in moving him.That's not what he's saying. He's saying the White Sox haven't been able to build successfully around them
The White Sox have no urgent need to rid themselves of Robertson's contract. Relatively, their payroll is manageable. They do however have Nate Jones ready to take over as closer, so for that reason Robertson is possibly expendable.The Sox ability to absorb Robertson, who is both a short term and long term need with Koji and Tazawa gone next year (and Smith gone through mid summer), might make them a bit more attractive. Moncada, Swihart, Rodriguez plus taking Robertson might get it done.
Just giving you the true perspective from Chicago-Yeah, I know. But unless you think they are part of the problem, the fact that they haven't built a contender around them is not a valid reason to feel the need to move them right now. This is Stanton redux. The Marlins weren't under any real pressure to trade him when his name became an obsession here a few years back. They took phone calls on him and were happy to be blown away, but never were. He's still in Miami. Same with Fernandez. They weren't under any pressure to deal him right away and were happy to talk to teams and wait for an overpay. They reportedly asked for a preposterous return because they weren't really interested in moving him.
The White Sox are not looking to move Sale or Quintana. They are looking to see if anyone is willing to overpay. It was true of the Marlins both times. It's true here.
The White Sox are not going to trade Chris Sale straight up for Betts, and they are not of the same value. That's crazy talk.Betts alone is at least as valuable as Sale. They don't have to add stuff to *maybe* get him.
Just to add- this is something he was talking about in spring training rather than post hoc analysisSale has been pitching with his offspeed stuff this year to try to go deeper into games and deeper into the season. Don't read too much into the lower Ks.
In order to micromanage his pitch selection and pitch count, Sale’s working in a new direction with pitching coach Don Cooper. In late January, he met with Cooper to define his pitching methods going forward this year. The two had a meeting of the minds on using more pitches that would create early contact and easier innings to get through.
Because Sale has always been a max-effort pitcher, the idea of using more contact-inducing pitches would help plant a different seed of acumen. Many fastball pitchers learn this lesson early in there career. Rotation mate John Danks experienced such a career arc after shoulder surgery took away his velocity.
Fangraphs' trade value column that just came out has Betts ranked 7th and Sale 15th. I know that's not gospel and GMs are obviously not bound by that, but it's as decent a barometer as anything, certainly enough to say that it's not crazy talk. Betts' extra year of control makes a big difference.The White Sox are not going to trade Chris Sale straight up for Betts, and they are not of the same value. That's crazy talk.
I didn't say it was a "valid reason." I'm not a GM. I said that it may be a line of thought they're pursuing--"perhaps, instead of trying yet again to build around them, we can take our best asset(s) and get more for a future we're pursuing." They're the ones entertaining the idea of trading them, not me. What the GMs of Sosh would do is kinda not that interesting to me, but maybe I'm alone on that.Yeah, I know. But unless you think they are part of the problem, the fact that they haven't built a contender around them is not a valid reason to feel the need to move them right now.
No. The Marlins never grabbed every available reporter and claimed there was no such thing as an untouchable the way they were approaching things.This is Stanton redux.
I agree that they're considering hitting the reset button. I just disagree that the price is anywhere near what the discussion has swirled around so far. Again, they asked for Gallo and Profar from Texas supposedly. That puts them in Marlins "shopping" Fernandez territory, which went nowhere fast. It's in their best interest to see if someone will go nuts. They're not giving him up for a prospect package built around Moncada, though. At least not one that doesn't completely gut the farm. That's all I'm saying. If we're gonna discuss it, discuss it realistically. The cost will be prohibitively high.Again--it is a longshot, and they may be signalling in an effort to try and get someone to go crazy. But they're telling the baseball world they are seriously considering hitting "reset." So it is worth discussing what that might mean.
There is no absence of realism here, Snod. The White Sox will start their ask high, obviously. The discussion is centering around Moncada because if it took more than Moncada--ie Betts, Bogaerts, etc--that's not going to happen and isn't worth debating. DD isn't going to do it, no one here would want to do it, and it is debatable that CHW has that as a goal anyway if they're seriously motivated to move either. Maybe they're not really motivated and are only looking for a Godfather offer, but that would be somewhat at odds with what Hahn is saying and the tone in which he's saying it.They're not giving him up for a prospect package built around Moncada, though. If we're gonna discuss it, discuss it realistically.